Who's the Boss?: Transcript

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
The business of war. Google employees, protest work for the Pentagon. Hundreds of Amazon employees plan to risk their jobs this week by violating company policy. Wayfair employees walk out in protest over sales to migrant detention camps. Capitalism needs to evolve. I'm Andrew Ross Sorkin. I'm a columnist at the New York Times and the founder of DealBook and an anchor on CNBC Squawk Box. And I'm coming to you from home. Where else? One more time.

Adam Grant:
Hey Andrew? Andrew, you're not on air. This is a podcast.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Okay.

Adam Grant:
So, we can just talk. You don't have to go through all the headlines.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Hey Adam, can you just hang on for a second? I still have to do that one more headline. Social movements are contagious. Protests within Massachusetts companies are part of a growing trend.

Adam Grant:
Well, Andrew, is it a trend?

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Good question.

Adam Grant:
Across industries, employees have been making headlines by advocating for their workplaces to change policies and practices. They're pushing for companies to take a stand on a range of causes. Some of them even wading deep into politics. These confrontations can make or break individual and organizational reputations. So if you're the one posting or protesting, how do you make sure it's effective? And if you're a leader, how should you respond to employee activism? So it makes the organization stronger, not weaker?

Adam Grant:
I'm Adam Grant. And this is WorkLife, my podcast with the Ted audio collective. I'm an organizational psychologist. I study how to make work not suck. In this show, I take you inside the minds of fascinating people to rethink how we work, lead and live. Today? How to use your voice to drive change above you and how to manage all the voices rising up from below. Thanks to SAP for sponsoring this episode.

Adam Grant:
Employee activism is on the rise, but a company is not a democracy. Sorry, it isn't. Yes, employees are key stakeholders, but leaders also have responsibilities to serve the interests of customers, shareholders, and the community. They need to consider what's best for the entire organization, not just the people inside it. At the same time, a workplace shouldn't be run like a dictatorship. As a leader, you want people to speak up if they see something broken.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
If you see something that's demonstrably wrong happening inside a company, I mean really wrong. I think that you have, to some degree, even a responsibility to speak out.

Adam Grant:
After the school shooting in Parkland, many employees and customers lobbied for Dick's Sporting Goods to stop selling guns altogether. But others pressured them to stay the course. Leaders decided on a middle ground. They would stop selling assault style weapons and high capacity magazines. More than 60 employees quit in protest because they felt the company had gone too far. Sales dropped and at least one provider ended their contract. But in the past few years, the company has taken an even bigger stand. In 2020, the CEO announced they would pull guns and ammunition from half the stores altogether.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Clearly, he was going to take an economic hit for doing that. He was going to take a political hit. There was a backlash among customers that was manifested online and all over.

Adam Grant:
As some leaders engage employee activism, others have tried to avoid it altogether.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
You look at Coinbase. This is the cryptocurrency exchange company, led by Brian Armstrong. And he very publicly came out and said, "Look, our mission is the business. That's the purpose. And anything else that distracts from that is not something we want to focus on."

Adam Grant:
Coinbase released guidelines that employees shouldn't pursue activism outside their core mission or talk politics at work. And that did not go well. The backlash from employees was immediate. 60 of them left in protest.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
We'll see whether that is a strategy as an economic argument that works. Do his employees stay? Do they go? Does he have a hard time attracting or retaining people? Does he have a hard time attracting or retaining customers? Do people look at that and say, "Yeah, I want to get behind that." Do people say, "No, I hate that idea so much that I'm willing to either leave the company or I'm not going to use that exchange. I'll use a rival or competitive exchange." I think those are the issues that everybody's thinking about right now.

Adam Grant:
This is a tricky line to walk. In a recent survey, half of CEOs felt responsibility to take a stand on social and political issues. While the other half thought CEOs have been doing too much of that. Last year, Andrew and I were at a conference when he raised a big question. In organizations today, who's the boss? Are leaders still ultimately in charge or is the court of public opinion, the real boss? When should organizations grant employees demands? And when should they not?

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
So, I think there's a confluence of things that have happened over the last several years that have effectively reorganized what used to be the classic org chart. And have empowered, in many ways, employees at, what might be described as the bottom rungs to almost be able to rise in many ways and have their voice heard at the top rung. Part of it, frankly, is just technology. It is the rise of Slack and Microsoft Teams and these internal message boards where people feel free and open to express their views and ideas, and really be able to even build movements inside organizations in ways that they never could before.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
On the other side is actually what's happened inside technology companies themselves, really led by Google initially. That they were going to allow employees to express themselves in ways that they never had before. Google really pioneered this idea that they were much more like a university than a top-down company. But it was also a way of trying to tell employees, "We trust you, we care about you and we want to give you voice." And so it started with free food, but it's extended itself to free expression.

Adam Grant:
It's interesting that you point your finger at Google because I remember being there in 2010 and they were so excited that they had given everybody a voice. And now, we fast forward a decade. Now everyone has a voice. What are we going to do?

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Exactly. And I think there is, at least privately, misgivings about what's happening because it does make quote unquote, managing an organization, especially at scale, much more complicated because it becomes this almost a galitarian democracy. And while democracy can be a great thing, when it comes to politics and maybe even to some degree, policy, democracy is messy. And whether you end up with the right results in the context of a business, I think is still an open question. The other thing that's been happening at the same time is we're now confronting big social issues in ways that business never did before and actually businesses unto themselves are taking action. Now, part of the reason they're taking action is because their own employees are speaking out. I think employees feel much freer to say what they want to say.

Adam Grant:
So, I have little or nothing to lose by speaking up.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
In a day and age when most employees think that they are punching their ticket along a journey from one company to another, how are they going to be injured? I think that, back when people plan to work their entire life at one company, you've heard people talk about feeling like they're working for a company and being paid hush money, and that they were willing to almost accept that hush money because they were dependent on it.

Adam Grant:
That actually reminds me of the psychological contract, which is the unwritten expectations and obligations between employees and employers. And when we study them, we basically see that a lot of employers just have an economic contract. I give you a paycheck and you give me effort in exchange. Many employers have gone to a more, what's called socio-emotional contract. I think about that as being more a community or a family where, "I'm going to take care of you, I'm going to help you feel a sense of belonging and in return, you're going to be more loyal."

Adam Grant:
And one of the things we've seen in the past decade or so is that more and more organizations have set up what are called ideological contracts. Where the currency is a cause or a moral principle. "I'm going to give you the chance to work on a mission that's bigger than yourself that creates a sense of purpose in your life. And in return, you're going to bring me unusual levels of passion and dedication." And I wonder if this is a double-edged sword, because the moment that you let people know that your organization stands for an ideology, you open the door for people to bring in their own ideologies.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Well, this goes very much to the idea of companies that talk about purpose and social responsibility and mission, but you're a hundred percent right. The second you decide that you stand for something very specific, you open yourself up. And as we've discussed, with all of these new electronic tools at the disposal of employees, people are sharing their views.

Adam Grant:
You mentioned that democracy is messy. And I hear a lot of, especially Silicon Valley executives, complain about entitlement. It's kind of funny when you think about it, because I can not imagine walking into an organization as a new hire and thinking I have a clue about what's going to be good for the organization's future, or that it's my place to impose my values on a company. And it does seem that that exists in a way that it didn't before. Where do you think that's coming from?

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
I 100% believe that the sense of entitlement has risen to new levels. No question. But I also think that business has almost embraced this idea, structurally. These efforts to try to flatten organizations, this idea that the boss has an open door policy. Do they really want people to emerge with these voices in the way that they have, or were they hoping that people would feel like they could say whatever they wanted to say, but it was really never going to reach them. I don't know if this started out with the sort of intention of, you know what, we'll try to make everybody feel good. We'll try to flatten this organization, so everybody feels like they have a voice if they want a voice. But you know what, we'll be able to filter that voice. And I think what companies are realizing is it's very hard to filter that voice.

Adam Grant:
So how do you listen to the voices of employees without abdicating your responsibility to lead. A big theme in WorkLife this season has been process. We've talked about creating accountability for a good decision process. We've explored the value of having a transparent process for determining pay. This speaks to a broader idea of what's called procedural justice, a fair process. As a leader or manager it's impossible to make decisions that leave everyone happy. Several decades of evidence reveal that employees are more willing to accept undesirable outcomes when the process is fair.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
Hopefully a CEO is introspective enough to see people raising their voice about a particular issue and saying, okay, can I, can I consider this constructive criticism? Can I figure out what I should be doing better? What the company needs to be doing better? I think if you blow off all voices, that's also a terrible idea. I think the question is when do you welcome in these ideas and when don't you? And I don't think that there's necessarily a formula for that.

Adam Grant:
There might not be an exact formula, but a fair process can be broken down into three elements. The first is neutrality, decision-makers are unbiased. The second is transparency. The decision criteria and considerations are explained rather than hidden. The third is participation, employees have a say. There's some research suggesting that employees want to have a say, even if they don't get their way. Voice is not just about driving change. It's also about expressing your values and being heard. When employees speak up, it's up to leaders to make sure they feel heard to explain the process for making the decision.

Adam Grant:
For example, take a study at a manufacturing company that instituted a pay freeze. Employees facing financial hardship, remain satisfied and committed as long as the decision was communicated with procedural justice. Neutrality meant highlighting that it was applied consistently to all employees. Transparency involved explaining that the company was under intense economic pressure and the pay freeze was chosen as an alternative to layoffs. Voice involved, making it clear that managers took employees concerns into account. You don't have to grant every request, but you do have to show that you've considered each one seriously and fairly, which is something many leaders fail to do.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
I think some are probably failing their employees in certain ways, because they say they have an open door policy and they really don't. I think there are some companies who say they have social responsibilities who provide fabulous lip service and great rhetoric, but don't.

Adam Grant:
It seems like the leader's job is to listen, to make decisions based on shared values and then say, "okay, given that we've made this decision, we're going to do her damnedest to make sure it helps the company, or at least doesn't hurt the company."

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
I think that's, that's totally right.

Adam Grant:
There are potential benefits of responding to employee activism and real cost of ignoring it. But if you're not at the top of an organization and you have an issue you want a champion. How do you use your voice effectively to drive change and avoid retaliation? More on that after the break.

Adam Grant:
Okay. This is going to be a different kind of ad. I play a role in selecting the sponsors for this podcast because they all have interesting cultures of their own. Today we're going inside the workplace at SAP.

Cat Davis:
It came to my knowledge that these executives, they are receiving 10 weeks of paid leave when associates were not receiving the same.

Adam Grant:
How did you feel when you found that out?

Cat Davis:
Oh goodness. I was in complete shock. We are helping the customers. We are building your business and made me feel more disposable.

Adam Grant:
Meet Cat Davis.

Cat Davis:
I'm from Bayboro, North Carolina, deep in the south. I have two grown children, one grandbaby, and I am still employed at Walmart.

Adam Grant:
Cat has been working at Walmart for 13 years.

Cat Davis:
I am considered a inventory manager, making sure the counts are accurate.

Adam Grant:
She's done all kinds of jobs at Walmart. And she's gone up the ranks from cashier clerk to supervisor. Along the way Cat learned of a major discrepancy between executives and store employees. Female executives who had children received 10 weeks of paid family leave at full salary. Meanwhile, full-time associates got just six to eight weeks leave at only half pay. And that wasn't much considering that many of these employees were making $10 an hour.

Cat Davis:
This was definitely a nationwide issue. One of the very first stories that stick out to me was an associate. She was pregnant and she was trying to figure out how she'll be able to take time off from work while paying her bills at the same time. That's a serious issue to think about, being pregnant and just so many stories began to pop up and which I knew that something had to be done.

Adam Grant:
Think about a time when you've been frustrated with your organization's policies or practices. How did you raise your concerns? And what do you wish you'd done differently? In the past you might've gone to your boss, HR, your union, or the media. Social media has opened up new channels of voice. But the first step is usually to talk to your colleagues.

Cat Davis:
All I knew to do was just start talking to different individuals about issues that we were having within our store and other stores. And it pretty much just went dead.

Adam Grant:
Over time Cat had seen how not having fully paid family leave affected her coworkers at Walmart. But many of them stayed silent about the issue. Some were afraid to speak up. Others didn't believe a huge company would ever change.

Cat Davis:
But as years went by, I have had coworkers who went into my inbox, asking what they could do to help. They really want to stay behind the scenes because they are afraid of retaliation. So they really don't want their names put out there.

Adam Grant:
Cat was hesitant too. But as she saw more colleagues struggle, she became determined to do something about it.

Cat Davis:
I guess the will to help people outweighed the notion that I may be fired.

Adam Grant:
Instead of just raising your own voice, sociologists recommend organizing a movement. The task is to create a groundswell of support that gains momentum over time. And I have a colleague who specializes in that very topic.

Mae McDonnell:
I'm Mae McDonnell. I'm a professor in the management department at Wharton.

Adam Grant:
Mae's the leading scholar of social movements in and around organizations.

Mae McDonnell:
I think there is no industry that's safe from activism on many issues. We tend to think about social movements as progressive, as pushing for whatever the progressive conception of social responsibility might be. But one of the starkest patterns that I see in my own data is a tremendous rise in the amount of conservative oriented corporate protesting. So about 30% of boycotts against firms today are actually conservative leaning. I started building a database tracking protests and boycotts against firms back in 2008 and have been building it ever since a number of protests targeting firms today. It's on the order of 60 times the numbers that you would see in the early 2010s.

Adam Grant:
It's obviously a dramatic change. What do you think is driving it?

Mae McDonnell:
So many things, in part it is frustration with the government. And I think a lot of people just feel like the government won't act anymore. I think that companies are today the most powerful policymakers in this country. And so I feel like employees who have that internal position who can see where in the firm, their values may not be consistent with the policy preferences that they're advocating for, can demand that firms actually live up to the values that they're professing and their advertising. And in that way affect policy and create a country that's better for everyone, not just workers.

Adam Grant:
You've heard about these kinds of cases. Googlers walked out in protest over how the company dealt with sexual harassment cases. Whole Foods employees sued over being prohibited from wearing black lives matter masks. But not all employee activism campaigns are effective. Remember when Wayfair employees walked out in protest of a contract with detention centers? It made headlines at the time, but didn't drive real change. Wayfair kept the contract and made a random hundred thousand dollar donation to the Red Cross. If you don't agree with something your company is doing, there are four steps Mae recommends to build a movement and avoid retaliation. First, you want to stand for something, not just against something. You should have direct specific requests.

Mae McDonnell:
It's about having a clear ask of the corporation. So a lot of times you have movements that are really angry about something, but they don't have a suggestion for what exactly they want their firms to do about it. And I actually saw this a lot recently in the wake of the Floyd protests and black lives matter. And there were a lot of firms that wanted to do something and employees that were asking their firms to take action, but it wasn't clear what they could do. So having a really clear set of demands is extremely important.

Adam Grant:
Second, your request should be grounded in a common identity, a set of values that resonate with a broad audience.

Mae McDonnell:
A clear collective identity. An identity that will appeal to everyone. Even people that are not necessarily the ones affected, can sympathize with.

Adam Grant:
In the Google walkouts for example, employees appealed to the company motto don't be evil. Thousands of employees were drawn to protests by a widely shared value. This is where the occupy wall street movement failed. People rallied against the 1%, but it wasn't clear exactly what they were advocating for or what they wanted. And they focused their identity on a tactic occupying instead of on shared values.

Mae McDonnell:
They never had a clear unifying collective identity. They never made their demands clear, or they had at one point a manifesto, it was almost like a Wiki page where anyone could chime in and add their suggestions. And so it wasn't very workable.

Adam Grant:
Third, look for allies in positions of power.

Mae McDonnell:
It really helps to have elite allies. So, all the work we have on traditional social movements that targeted the government, shows that it was really helpful if you had someone on the inside. And so to the extent that you might have a board member who sympathizes, or a member of the C-suite. It is not a bad idea to try to talk directly to the people who you think most likely to sympathize with your movement to see if you can get someone on the inside and the upper echelons on board early.

Adam Grant:
Of course not everyone has access to people in power, which brings us to the fourth step, start building a coalition. Psychologists find that signaling the support of others is one of the most effective and most underutilized strategies for influence. Merely having one colleague amplify your idea can be enough to get it heard. But sociologists take this further. They recommend forming alliances with existing groups that can help you advocate for change.

Mae McDonnell:
You want to try to find some organization within your organization that you could use as a platform. And then once you have an organization to work through. That lets you kind of create a collective identity, a collective group to mobilize. It's not a bad idea to try to find an outside group that can help you talk to them about tactics and have them talking to management from the outside at the same time as you're pressing from inside. Where you address an issue from outside with a legitimate social movement organization and inside with a clear mobilized group is a really effective strategy.

Adam Grant:
This was one of the first steps Cat Davis took when she wanted to expand paid family leave benefits for store associates at Walmart. She joined United for Respect an outside labor advocacy grip.

Cat Davis:
When I joined UFR, that's when I realized that there are so many people out there who believe retail workers deserve paid leave.

Adam Grant:
And with their help cat honed in on a specific demand, get full-time associates the same 10 weeks at full salary as executives had.

Cat Davis:
So we just started doing simple things like surveys and petitions to see who were interested in the same fight. We mostly used social media, things like Facebook and Instagram.

Adam Grant:
And after a few months of rallying employees nationwide around a clear ask-

Cat Davis:
We were able to collect a hundred thousand signatures from associates and allies who believed that we deserved paid leave.

Adam Grant:
Wow.

Cat Davis:
Yes.

Adam Grant:
You got a hundred thousand signatures?

Cat Davis:
Yes.

Adam Grant:
That's amazing. Were you surprised?

Cat Davis:
Oh yes I was. Yes. I'm still surprised to this day.

Adam Grant:
How many were you aiming for?

Cat Davis:
Wow. Hopefully we will garner at least 500, but when it finally reached a hundred thousand, we were like, oh my goodness. For years I knew that workers needed paid time off. But to have a group behind you, giving you support, it makes a huge difference. There is power in numbers.

Adam Grant:
And Cat made sure top executive saw that power. In 2017, her coalition presented a box with a hundred thousand employees signatures to the office of Walmart CEO.

Cat Davis:
And the same weekend as when I spoke at the shareholders meeting, concerning the paid leave policy.

Adam Grant:
After months of mobilizing a collective and finding allies in other states and departments, Cat went to one of the company's biggest stages, the annual shareholders meeting. To voice the coalition's demands on two topics, electing a director with environmental expertise and expanding family leave.

Cat Davis:
I was told that between the attendees and people watching, it would probably be close to 25,000 people. I have never spoken in front of a crowd that large. I'm making it there and the place is full. I mean, it is full.

Adam Grant:
The meeting was at the University of Arkansas arena.The stage was set with dozens of speakers from around the world. Music performances opened the event, followed by motivational presentations that showcase the company's achievements. Then the lights move to the crowd and all eyes were on Cat.

Cat Davis:
I was like, oh my goodness, I have to calm my nerves. And we are given three minutes to present our presentation. Three minutes. And right before it was time for me to present my proposal. A lady gave her a proposal, she was with a union. And while she's talking, you can hear the boo's and no. And I was like, oh my goodness. I said to myself, they are harsh. And I'm thinking I'm next. And I think my heart just sunk even further.

Adam Grant:
The meeting was recorded. So let's roll the tape.

Cat Davis:
VIDEO LINK
My name is Carolyn Davis from store 1300. And I am a Walmart associate from the outer banks of North Carolina, where I proudly serve our customers. As far as investing in associates, the unfair leave policies, reduced hours and low pay, make it difficult for most of us that pay our bills and to take care of our families. Walmart can and should live up to the promises it makes. Investing in our associates may letting us take care of our children when they are sick and accepting our doctor notes. Investing in associates means that new parents in Walmart are allowed time to bond with our children. Walmart's female executives receive 10 weeks of paid family leave-

Cat Davis:
After the first two or three sentences. I hear. "Yes. Yes. That's right. Yes." I'm like, oh my goodness. And then I keep speaking and I hear people all over the room like, "yes that's yes." And I hear claps and accolades and I'm like, oh my goodness.

Cat Davis:
Let's do the same for hourly associates, women and men. Investing in associates means ending the open availability requirement and giving associates set schedules so we can plan our lives and be there for our families.

Cat Davis:
And I was like, yes, we have done it. People are listening. It's saying like I went from being by myself to an org by ourselves, to now the outside world joining in. It was just amazing.

Adam Grant:
About seven months after Cat presented the groups demands and signatures, Walmart announced they were expanding their family leave policy. All full-time hourly employees would get 10 weeks at full pay for maternity leave and six weeks for parental leave.

Cat Davis:
I mean to this day, I'm still like in disbelief it happened so fast. From June, until February so many who want to stay anonymous because they are scared of the retaliation. Old timers who have been there for a long time. They were in my inbox, congratulating me, thanking me. And I even had a manager from another store stop by my store. And she found me and she congratulated me for being brave for speaking out at the shareholders meeting to make the difference. If you make it public, they cannot deny that they did not know what associates wanted.

Adam Grant:
Whether you're making requests or demands, Research shows that it's critical to highlight how meeting them will benefit the organization and align with shared values. Cat did this by highlighting stories from employees across the nation. Showing leaders, how their workers were struggling to get by and give their families the time and attention they needed. Which affected Walmart's ability to attract, motivate, and retain people. But with some employee movements, it can be hard to see the big picture behind the demands.

Mae McDonnell:
If employees are going to try to mobilize and start to affect their company's behaviors, then they have to take it seriously and understand the power that they wield and try to think beyond their own personal experience.

Adam Grant:
I guess the good news is that everyone has a voice. The bad news is, everyone has a voice.

Mae McDonnell:
Yeah.

Adam Grant:
It seems like in the past, decision-making was authority based and it's becoming more democratic. Is that a good thing?

Mae McDonnell:
It is a different thing, right? I mean, democracies have their weaknesses.

Adam Grant:
What kind of organizational structure would you want to see that gives employees a voice, but also recognizes the authority and expertise of people in power?

Mae McDonnell:
What I think I would like to see, is that companies focus on building boards that are better listeners to employees. Boards that don't only have a financial competencies and can, read your accounting statements. Those skills are really important, but so are skills for understanding social and political threats. To understand the grievances within your company. To be people who employees are comfortable going to with grievances.

Mae McDonnell:
I think that we all need to stop thinking about activism as a threat and instead see it as an opportunity. Activism is information, it's information about how preferences are changing. It is a signal about what issues that have been taken for granted are being problematized and are likely to be baked into market performance in the future. And represent those latent sources of market risk that corporate leaders need to always be trying to auger and understand. And so if you reconceptualize activism as that, then it makes sense to frequently ask your employees opinions about what issues they most care about and how they think that the firm might be a better leader at the forefront of that issue. I guess the rosy take on is that it's like a marketplace for ideas. That there's competition between different issues and that the issues that resonate most with your stakeholders are the ones that get the most attention and rise to the top.

Adam Grant:
I like the framing of this as market risk.

Mae McDonnell:
I mean, we see the market responding to issues like diversity and whether or not you sell guns and these issues that it didn't use to respond to. Social grievances, that there's a price to them, once there's enough traction behind a movement.

Adam Grant:
We need employees to hold leaders accountable for doing the right thing. And we need employees to hold each other accountable for speaking up when it serves the greater good and doing so effectively. If there's one place where the Bible, Voltaire and Spiderman agree is that with great power comes great responsibility. I think it should also come with great accountability. Yes. Making change in response to employee activism can seem like a risk, but ignoring that activism is a risk too.

Adam Grant:
Next time on WorkLife.

Speaker:
I actually cried because I felt so scared and so guilty that I got it. Because I was like, wow I somehow tricked Netflix into giving me this opportunity.

Adam Grant:
Find out how to turn insecurity in the motivation. WorkLife is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Transmitter Media. Our team includes Colin Helms, Gretta Cohn, Dan O'Donnell, Joanna Luna, Grace Rubenstein, Michelle Quinn, Banban Cheng, and Anna Phelan. This episode was produced by Concentric Aorta. Our show is mixed by Rick Kwan. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin, original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown. Ad stories produced by Pineapple Street Studios.

Special thanks to our sponsors, LinkedIn, Logitech, Morgan Stanley, SAP, and Verizon. Gratitude to the following researchers and their colleagues. Denise Rousseau, Jeff Thompson and Stewart Benderson on psychological contracts. Joel Bruckner, Batya Wiesenfield Jason Colquitt and John Sherbrooke on procedural justice. Dean McFarland and Paul Sweeney on having a say. Tom Bateman on proactivity. Sue Ashford and Jane Dutton on issue selling. Dave Mayer and Scott Sonnenschein on moral issues. Kristen Bane on amplifying ideas. Bob Cialdini on social proof. And Holly McCammon and Brayden king on social movements.

Andrew Ross Sorkin:
I'm surrounded by pillows, I'm in my home office and it's somewhat embarrassing because it looks like I've turned my desk into a bed. I have one, two, three, four, five, six pillows surrounding, I think it's called a snowball ice microphone-

Adam Grant:
Here I thought you were just listening to the MyPillow guy too much.