ReThinking with Adam Grant
Fighting against the status quo with Filmmaker Jon M. Chu
August 20, 2024
[00:00:00] Jon M. Chu:
Actually having a camera gave me access to people. They smiled, they let me into their groups when I had a camera in my hand. Editing it then allowed me to show what I could do and people would accept me further with that.
[00:00:14] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is John M. Chu.
The filmmaker behind the smash hit Crazy Rich Asians. He also directed In the Heights. And is helming the movie adaptations of two of my all time favorite musicals. Wicked and Joseph in the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. John's one of the biggest directors in Hollywood today, but his journey there was full of trial and error.
[00:00:51] Jon M. Chu:
Every time I did something, everything, something bad would happen. I'd be like, “This is gonna be a great chapter in my book one day.” And that really helped me see the longer vision of what I was going to do.
[00:01:04] Adam Grant:
Speaking of that book, John recently released his first one. It's called Viewfinder: A Memoir of Seeing and Being Seen.
One of the major themes in the book and in John's filmmaking is questioning the status quo.
All right, let me start here. Why the hell do you have to write a book, John Chu? Like, you don't see, you don't see me directing a movie. What is happening?
[00:01:37] Jon M. Chu:
I agree. You know, it, it started as a, a moment in time where I realized that, I think people lost or are losing the hope to dream. And I've lived this sort of crazy life being raised in the Silicon Valley, being by the kindness of the people who came to my parents' Chinese restaurant, who gave me digital video equipment in the late nineties when I had no business having it.
Finding my voice with it and then coming to Hollywood thinking I'm escaping Silicon Valley and then having Silicon Valley invade my adult life as well. And it just felt like, you know what? I have a story to tell that I really want all these creators, and there's so many creators out there to know that this journey is a long journey and that it is not easy, it's not overnight.
And that the ups and downs of that journey, I thought it was valuable to people. So here I am.
[00:02:31] Adam Grant:
Well, all joking aside, it is an amazing story and I am just overjoyed to see you telling yours instead of other people's.
[00:02:37] Jon M. Chu:
Thank you.
[00:02:37] Adam Grant:
Which you spent most of your career telling.
[00:02:40] Jon M. Chu:
Thank you. And it is awkward, I'm not gonna lie.
It's awkward to tell your own story. I feel uncomfortable. It almost was like a therapy session for me as, as me and Jeremy McCarter, my collaborator would talk, this is a three year in the making. There were moments where I was like, “Maybe I shouldn't release this”. And as we were doing it, literally technology was invading my work with In The Heights, and whether it's Crazy Rich Asians going online or streaming or being in the movie theater.
And then the support I got for Crazy Rich Asians, it was just, it was all colliding at one point and it seemed appropriate.
[00:03:15] Adam Grant:
One of the defining moments in the book is, is your origin story as a filmmaker, it's not a follow your passion narrative, it's a stumble on your passion story in a way. Tell me the highlights of that arc.
[00:03:25] Jon M. Chu:
I was youngest of five kids growing up in Los Altos, California. And being the youngest, you're constantly talked over, you're fighting for food, and I was carrying the video camera whenever my parents and us and all the kids would go on vacation. And I saw this little editor in Sharper Image and I got them to buy me this mixer and I got all my VCRs from my brother and sisters rooms and, and put it together and made this thing from our vacation video.
And I'll never forget showing my parents on the couch that they cried seeing it. I mean, they named me and my sister, Jennifer and Jonathan after a TV show, Jennifer and Jonathan Hart from Heart to Heart, and they learned their English from music and movies and Television of America. And so to see our family on the screen was really moving, and it was the first time I felt I could contribute in some way.
That's what took me to Los Angeles, to USC and made some short films there and got discovered by Steven Spielberg and what seemed like was gonna be, “Okay. I got discovered by him. I'm gonna make my first big movie in the studio.” I had no idea what I was doing, by the way. I was never been on a set before.
It didn't, uh, turn out exactly like that for sure.
[00:04:37] Adam Grant:
What did Spielberg see in you? Because I think everybody dreams of that moment, but.
[00:04:41] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:04:41] Adam Grant:
They don't know what's actually behind it. And what drives somebody who, at this point in his career, could literally choose to bet on anyone on Earth. Like what, what was it that drew him to you?
[00:04:53] Jon M. Chu:
I have no idea, to be honest. I, I, I know that he does this to young filmmakers and I, and I'm really grateful for it. That kindness has really affected my whole life. When you walk into Dreamworks, there's this like, wishing well and you look in the wishing well, and it's, uh, a giant shark like Jaws looking up at you.
And so it's an intimidating place to go, but also a place of dreams. And when I sat down with him. I, of course wanted to just talk about how much I loved him, but, but before I could even go there, he talked about what he loved about my short film, which is so insane, and he talked about the camera and the music.
It was a musical, and that just got us talking about musicals in general. And so I, I don't exactly know. All I know is I, I, I think he's a curious, playful person, and I hope he saw a little bit of that in me, and that sort of took me forward.
[00:05:44] Adam Grant:
It's interesting to hear you describe it as kindness, because no doubt there's an element of that there, but it's also a huge investment in an industry that he cares deeply about.
I hate to call it return on investment. That's way too sort of business and financey, but there's a return on impact there.
[00:06:01] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:06:01] Adam Grant:
To say, of all the young up and coming filmmakers, if I invest in the most promising ones, that's the highest use of my time.
[00:06:08] Jon M. Chu:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it didn't come across like that at all.
He bought a project from me that we developed for years. We never made it. He had given me some advice about making my first movie, making sure I chose it right. He talked about his favorite musical, Oliver, and we sang along to some of the songs together. But it didn't feel like it honestly felt really genuine and I haven't kept in touch with him a ton since.
But when I do, it's that same sense of warmth. And he invited me to his set when he was shooting The Terminal at the time, and he had a seat right next to him for me. I'm 22 years old at the time, and I'm, I have candy in my pocket and he's asking to share that candy and it's warm and wrinkled, and he took it anyway.
And he treated me like I was his friend and I got to watch him play like a kid, him and Janusz his DP, figure out solutions and solve problems like they were children. And it affected me very deeply because for the rest of my life I knew that you could be at that level of your game and be that warm and be that present and not feel like your time is so valuable that you don't have it to give to somebody who's really looking up at you.
[00:07:19] Adam Grant:
That that's a beautiful thing. It has to be a little bit daunting as a 22-year-old and.
[00:07:23] Jon M. Chu:
Oh yeah.
[00:07:24] Adam Grant:
You know, when I, when I think about what do we know in psychology about how people react to those kinds of moments, there's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy effect is one possibility where you've got someone like Spielberg who sees potential in me, and now I rise to that.
There's also a massive imposter syndrome option.
[00:07:41] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:07:42] Adam Grant:
Which is I, I will never live up to these expectations and I think that I must be some kind of fraud.
[00:07:48] Jon M. Chu:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:07:48] Adam Grant:
Which way did you go? Or was it a combination of the two?
[00:07:51] Jon M. Chu:
It was a combination of the two. At first, I was so young, so naive that I thought this was the way it was.
I mean, this is the stories they tell, “You go to USC, Spielberg will see your movie, and then you get an opportunity and you get a three picture deal.” And that seemed like what it was at the beginning. But come to year two and you don't have your movie made yet. Come to year three and they're, oh, in six months, year, four, six months, maybe in a year, come to year five and then no calls are getting returned.
And you're like, “Did I miss it? Did I miss this opportunity?” And that's when it hit me. That's when I felt like all the stories that people kept from me about other people who got discovered, who never actually made their first movie came out. And it's hard because it becomes so public. I was on the cover of Variety and Hollywood Reporter when they were in print back then, actually in print.
You get in the mail and I was in magazines. I was speaking at USC to the film students about making your first movie. And it's at that time where it felt like the world was crashing in on me and I had no idea what to do next. I had won the lottery and I didn't know actually how to do anything yet to, to resurrect it.
And those next 10 years was the time where I actually had to figure out how to do what people thought I could do.
[00:09:09] Adam Grant:
Wow. So in, in the span of a few years, you go from wunderkind golden child to massive underdog.
[00:09:23] Jon M. Chu:
Yep.
[00:09:19] Adam Grant:
You've said you, you like that feeling of being an underdog.
[00:09:23] Jon M. Chu:
I do. I've always been raised in that way.
My parents, as the owner of a Chinese restaurant. I would see people treat them poorly 'cause people could come to restaurants, think you're their servant. My dad, he's amazing back in the kitchen and he's amazing all sort of tidied up in the front of, of the restaurant and my mom is like host of the year.
She can make anybody smile. And when I see people treat them like they're nothing. That was very hurtful when I was young. And I would talk to them about it and they said, “Don't let it bother you. You just keep moving like. Our goal is to feed people's bellies and their hearts. We may be the first Chinese family that they ever meet, and they want to treat us like that, but after that, we hope that if we impress them enough that next time they see a Chinese family, they won't act as quickly.”
And so I, I didn't see it as being an underdog. I just saw it as being focused. And always moving forward. Our goals were higher than the things that people say or think in the present. We're taught that there's only one that can survive, and now that I've gotten a lot older, I've realized that's an unhealthy way to see the world.
Actually, we all can win. It is a journey and we all have our own paths.
[00:10:32] Adam Grant:
In those 10 years, it, it sounds like people telling you, you can't do this, you're not gonna make it actually fired you up, and you used it as fuel.
[00:10:41] Jon M. Chu:
I mean, I was down, I was dating a girl and she was going to USC at the time, and I dropped her off.
And I remember not having my big project working anymore, and I just wept at the loading dock where I used to rent movie equipment from the school. Looking at all the students and knowing that I've spoken in their class and I'm sitting here with nothing and that they're gonna find out I have to go to my parents and they're gonna have to find out.
And my mom said the best thing to me 'cause I was starting to get all scripts from anywhere to be like, “I just gotta work.” And one script was for this sequel to a dance movie and it was gonna be straight to DVD and um, I was like, “Oh, I don't do, I got discovered by Spielberg. I don't do straight to DVD uh movies. That's not me.”
And my mom said, “When did you become a snob?” I was like, “What?” She's like, “If you are a storyteller, a storyteller, it doesn't matter the medium, you can be in front of a fireplace and you could tell a story. You could do a commercial in 30 seconds and tell a story. And if you are truly a storyteller, you need to get off the bench and you need to go out there and prove yourself.” And it was interesting because Spielberg had always told me to wait for the perfect project, wait for the one that meant everything to you and Step Up wasn't necessarily that thing.
But I knew I love dance movies and I love dance, and I knew what I always wanted in a dance movie, so that fired me up and I was like, “I'm gonna make the best damn direct to DVD dance movie sequel of all time.”
And that sort of started me on it because two weeks later after I pitched what I thought it could be, Disney who had distributed the original Step Up movies, called and said, “We want to hear John's take on it.” And I went in and Oren Aviv, who was the president of the studio at that time, said, “Can you do it in nine months?”
So after waiting five years, we tore up the script and I had to be done with the movie in nine months and just starting. Just going, knowing that I'll make a ton of mistakes was the start of everything, and thank God for that.
[00:12:42] Adam Grant:
It's such a great example of just taking action in order to build your motivation.
I've watched a lot of people dive headfirst into their greatest passion and then just feel like there's too much pressure. And sometimes taking the project that is kind of fun and interesting, but isn't everything allows you to take more risks. Um, it, it lets you sort of treat it as a little bit of an experiment as opposed to.
[00:13:10] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:13:10] Adam Grant:
“This is my baby and I have to do everything right.”
[00:13:14] Jon M. Chu:
Totally. And there's a time and place for that. And there are filmmakers who, that is what they do, and I'm amazed by that. I had a different relationship with film, with what I did. My relationship with film wasn't a end goal. “I have to make this one movie and I will be set for the rest of my life.” It was literally, “I love every step of this process and I don't know where the end thing is gonna end up, but I, I love that.”
And that took me a while to understand, but at that moment, after Step Up 2: The Streets and, and many movies after, even though they were big studio movies, millions of dollars on the line, each one was a journey to learn one new thing. And it wasn't the end all be all. This wasn't gonna put me on the map of winning Oscars or being the newest, coolest filmmaker.
But there was a sense of comfort in saying this is one piece of a bigger story. It wasn't easy and it wasn't conscious, to be honest.
[00:14:09] Adam Grant:
No, but that, that's really compelling to think about it as a chapter as opposed to.
[00:14:13] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:14:13] Adam Grant:
“This is the book. I'm doing my magnum opus now.”
[00:14:16] Jon M. Chu:
Yep.
[00:14:17] Jon M. Chu:
So many people, they, they choose a career and especially a creative career on the basis of loving the product.
[00:14:24] Jon M. Chu:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:14:24] Adam Grant:
And you say, “No, it's actually more important to love the process.”
[00:14:28] Jon M. Chu:
100%.
[00:14:28] Adam Grant:
There's so many people who want to have made a movie or have written a book or fill in the blank and I think one of the real lessons from your experience is it's not so much about your passion for the outcome.
[00:14:44] Jon M. Chu:
Yep.
[00:14:43] Adam Grant:
It's about whether you enjoy doing the thing day in, day out.
[00:14:47] Jon M. Chu:
Totally. Creativity is a routine for me. As I get older, it gets harder to be creative because I have children and I have daily things that I, and this, this bigger sort of daily pressures. So I have to really carve out time for my creativity and I have to break down what my process and what I need. So I give myself the elbow room to do that, and me and my wife have those conversations all the time.
Like, “I need three hours and I'm gonna look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actually thinking, and I'm walking around and I'm fiddling, but I'm, this is where the ideas come from.” The sooner you figure out your process, and maybe that takes time to fail and conquer some things before you find it, that comes your boat in this nutty world that we're in right now to float on.
[00:15:32] Adam Grant:
Sometimes people get stuck in the nouns and they need verbs. A lot of times I hear people say, “I wanna be a writer.”
[00:15:38] Jon M. Chu:
Yep.
[00:15:39] Adam Grant:
And I ask them, “Well. What did you write this week?”
[00:15:42] Jon M. Chu:
Totally.
[00:15:43] Adam Grant:
And if the answer is nothing, no, you don't want to be a writer.
[00:15:47] Jon M. Chu:
You are what you do every day.
If you are a writer, you write every day. If you are a kind person, then you are kind to people around you. Even though that can sound dreamy and naive, that moral center builds strong brands, builds strong storytellers, because that's, that's what everything else is built on. It's the spine that everything's built on.
[00:16:08] Adam Grant:
How did you get to Crazy Rich Asians? It's one of those once in a career movies that everyone has to see everybody loves. How did you discover it? What did you see in it? Tell, tell me about that.
[00:16:20] Jon M. Chu:
Well, when I was in college, I saw this student film from this person and they made a story about this woman dating.
And the end part of that, and the whole school was watching was, uh, these doors kept opening and there was a nerd, there was this crazy person, and the last one was an Asian guy. Nothing weird about him, just an Asian guy, and everyone started laughing. Everybody like hysterically laughing and I didn't get the joke.
I turned to my friend, I was like, “What's so funny?” And they're like, “Oh, you know, 'cause like an Asian dude, like she's not gonna.” And it, it really hit me hard. I cannot believe we are okay with this. I'd never thought in those terms before and I knew that my, my student film was gonna be something that hit that straight on.
And so I did this movie called Gwai Lo, which means foreign devil, about my Asian identity cultural crisis. I was so self-conscious about making it. I hadn't processed all the stuff yet. Certain people in college called me Napalm as a friendly, funny joke to me, and I sort of accepted that and things that people said to me when I was young, I had never processed what they said.
A teacher that would whisper in our ears when we were very, very young. “You know, you don't mix when you get married. You don't mix with other cultures.” And things like that. So all these things I had totally brushed the side, like it was just funny. And suddenly all those things came to be and I was putting that in my film and people didn't believe me.
The students would like, “That's over the top. That doesn't make sense.” I didn't know how to process it, so, so I thought, “Maybe I am wrong, maybe I'm doing this too harshly.” And we screened the movie and it went great. Everyone loved it. But I was too self-conscious to ever release it. I didn't send it to the crew.
I didn't submit it into any film festival. I buried that thing so fast and I went 10 years of making studio movies and always had this, this thorn in my side of that fear, this triggering fear that at any time we talk about you're an Asian American director, I just didn't wanna be associated. I just wanted to be a director.
I was fine. I was living my career when I looked at my movies and I was like, I don't think anybody knows who I am with these movies. Like anyone could have directed any of these movies, and I'm very proud of them. And I loved every single one of them. I wouldn't take anything back, but who am I? And I told my team, I was like, “I have to find a project that that won't make us any money for a while. So sit back, relax, maybe for five years, but I have to do this. This is for my own sake.”
And I went back to what in college was I so excited to make or so scared to bake, and Gwai Lo came up again. And so I went on a search like how to do something like Gwai Lo, that's not that. And my mom emailed me this book, this Crazy Rich Asians book.
My sister emailed me, my cousin emailed me. I was like, “What? Why is everyone reading this book?” And when I read in Kevin Kwan’s book was this beautiful story of Rachel Chu, Asian American going to Asia for the first time. And I know that feeling. I know what it felt like to go to Hong Kong for me, and actually being called Gwai Lo there by others.
First feeling like, “Oh, this is home. Oh, this is, people are like treating me differently here.” And then also being a foreigner there. And so I knew that the combination of this great delicious book, this sort of travel log, romantic comedy and this very personal story of an Asian American going to Asia and figuring out who she is, that it's a mix of many things and what does it mean to be Asian American and what decisions do we need to make generationally and culturally as our own group was something that I had to make.
And through that process of inviting all these Asians from all around the world when we all got together and our catering was like Malaysian food every day and nobody was complaining or being like, “Oh, that smells weird. Oh, that tastes weird.”
Like everyone was like down. We're all talking about our experiences all around the world of what it meant to be an actor or writer or director in this business as an Asian something that opened all of our eyes. I think we, it felt so beautiful to be making this movie whether people were gonna see it or not, that we were all together and we got to make fun of ourselves.
We got to present how glamorous and beautiful we can be. We got to, uh, make fun of our parents or our grandparents and also see the heart in them as well. We knew we were making something special, but I thought no one was gonna see it for sure.
[00:20:46] Adam Grant:
Why did you think that no one was gonna see it?
[00:20:49] Jon M. Chu:
A movie like this cast, all Asian, hadn't been around in a while.
Romantic comedies were also dead at that moment. There was a lot of things against us. There was a lot of stuff happening all around that didn't seem like it made sense for us to make this in this way. We had a choice between doing it on, uh, a streaming platform or doing it with Warner Bros. and even though the streaming platform offered more opportunities, maybe more eyeballs, we chose the theater because we believed in the cinematic experience that there's value in telling people to put down your phone, sit in the dark, pay this money, grab your popcorn, and listen up for two hours.
[00:21:31] Adam Grant:
So it sounds like you made the mistake that Hollywood executives have been making for decades, which is you, you look at a new project and you evaluate it on the standards of what's been successful in the past.
[00:21:42] Jon M. Chu:
Yeah.
[00:21:42] Adam Grant:
And that means you become a prisoner of your prototypes because if you've got something that doesn't match up with, with what's worked before, even if the world has changed, even if taste has evolved, even if it's exciting in new ways, you can't see its potential.
[00:21:58] Jon M. Chu:
Yep. And I was indoctrinated in that I'd been casting movies for 10 years up to that point and knew the numbers or the quote unquote data of “those people won't come see this kind of movie or that people won't kind of see this kind of movie.”
And I believed it and it was the internet and that's why sort of technology comes back into my life and wakes me up. It was people online who were louder than I ever could be, and it woke me up to, “You are literally on the front lines. You like when they blame Hollywood, they're talking about you and you could change this because you've made enough money for this business. You get maybe one shot at trying to change that.”
So I, I don't take credit for wanting to do it. It was an environment, that environment was ready, it was telling me to do it in some ways, forcing me to do it.
[00:22:43] Adam Grant:
You're reminding me of something our Dean at Wharton, Erika James, has impressed upon me that I didn't, I didn't get it first.
I've spent most of my career saying, “Look, as an organizational psychologist, my job is to be data-driven.” And one day Erica said, “No, you should be data informed.”
[00:22:59] Jon M. Chu:
Mm.
[00:22:59] Adam Grant:
And what she helped me understand is that if you're data-driven, you're always going to be a step behind.
[00:23:05] Jon M. Chu:
Mm.
[00:23:05] Adam Grant:
Because you're reading the patterns of the past.
[00:23:08] Jon M. Chu:
Totally.
[00:23:08] Adam Grant:
The, the data can tell us what's worked before. They can't guide us to what's going to work in the future. And the more dynamic the world is, the faster it changes. The, the, the, the more we have to question the assumptions from those past patterns.
[00:23:22] Jon M. Chu:
100%. And I learned that precedent is the most evil thing that can happen in a time of change.
That it's not just precedent of what's on the screen. It's like business affairs. Business affairs has no name. They are this invisible lawyers who say, “That's not precedent, so you cannot do that.” So there's frontline battles and there's behind the scenes battles that need to take place. It used to be that movies would center the cultural conversation, and now the incentives for that is totally different.
It's data. Data is the number one thing to gather, and that is insane for art that the only reason that these conglomerates make these movies are to gain data. And so my philosophy now is let's be part of the data. If there, if that's the way it's gonna be, if that's what the algorithm's gonna read, then we have to rush the field with as much data as possible to tell our own story.
[00:24:19] Adam Grant:
Whenever I hear precedent, I hear we're making an excuse for calcifying the status quo.
[00:24:25] Jon M. Chu:
Totally.
[00:24:26] Adam Grant:
We don't have a reason. We're just saying, “Well, it hasn't been done before.”
I think it's time to go to the lightning round, so.
[00:24:37] Jon M. Chu:
Okay.
[00:24:38] Adam Grant:
What is the worst career advice you've ever gotten?
[00:24:41] Jon M. Chu:
You don't wanna be pigeonholed, do you? I fucking hate that one. I'm proud to do dance movies. I, I did Step Up 2 and Step Up 3D. Yeah. I'm gonna be the fucking best at making dance movies. And so immediately when someone says, “You don't wanna be pigeonholed.” It almost makes me say, “Let's go.”
[00:24:56] Adam Grant:
What is something you've rethought recently?
[00:24:59] Jon M. Chu:
When you're a leader of a collaborative group, how actually emotionally difficult it is to let people play with your toys. And how you have to start over so many times because when you bring in a editor, and you know how it's edited in your mind and the editing is different.
To let that go and to say, “Yes and.” With an editor while also guiding in your own way while working with an actor and they're gonna read it in their own way differently than what you thought it should be, but to clear your mind and allow them to paint each of those steps, you're basically rewriting the whole idea and, and you need to hold that center, but at the same time, the best project to come out of it.
You need to allow those things to jump on board. And then when you get in sync, it is the most beautiful thing, uh, imaginable. And I've done that many times, but I have sort of suppressed how difficult it is and I'm, I'm coming to grips with, you know what, I'm pretty good at that and I'm pretty proud that I can do that.
And that makes me feel a lot better in these situations where everything's sort of, these giant movies are coming together in one.
[00:26:06] Adam Grant:
What's a hot take you have?
[00:26:08] Jon M. Chu:
The one that comes first and it's easy, but it's that kindness is not weakness. And, and sometimes when you are more soft spoken, even as a leader, that can be seen as weakness and, and you get treated as that sometimes, and then you have to go over the top of that to correct it.
And that's not fun. But when you surround yourself with people who know how you operate and will respect that, there's nothing better than creating that machine.
[00:26:32] Adam Grant:
Where were you 15 years ago when I was writing my first book about the case for being a giver, not a taker?
[00:26:38] Jon M. Chu:
I do feel like it's more in the culture now than it was when you wrote that book.
Gimme a future prediction. Is there something you would forecast for the next generation of film or storytelling, for example?
[00:26:48] Jon M. Chu:
We are living in the greatest time for the storyteller. The medium is blown up and there's all many different types. God bless that 'cause uh, you can pick your form of how you're gonna tell your story.
You have a camera in your hand and you have an internet at your fingertips, and you have people out there who are going to receive your message, and that is beautiful.
[00:27:11] Adam Grant:
What's a question you have for me?
[00:27:12] Jon M. Chu:
What's the newest thing you discovered about yourself in doing all these interviews that maybe you thought you were right about before and realized you're not quite so right?
[00:27:21] Adam Grant:
Oh, I think one of the things I learned is that that makes me a little uncomfortable because I'm always worried that if I don't ask the right question or I don't think of the right, you know, the right study or the right concept in response to somebody's story, that there's not gonna be an insight.
I think that fear has forced me to wrestle with my impatience, uh, a little bit and say, “Look, sometimes you just have to let the conversation unfold. And hope that we landed an interesting insight.” And other times, like the process of having the conversation reveals insight. Even if there's not a mic drop moment.
I've learned that I am, I'm too picky when it comes to saying, “Okay, I've got, I've gotta know what this conversation is gonna deliver for the audience.” And I guess what I've realized is, “No, I don't have to know that. I just have to know. I'm excited for the conversation.”
[00:28:16] Jon M. Chu:
I love that. Does it make it harder to listen when you're doing this many conversations?
[00:28:20] Adam Grant:
A little bit. Some of my worst conversations have been the ones where I'm trying to make sure that I have the next question ready as opposed to just getting absorbed in the conversation. And what that does is it, it actually makes it an interview as opposed to a conversation that might go in an unexpected direction or take a surprising turn.
And those are almost always my favorite moments.
[00:28:41] Jon M. Chu:
Mm. I love that.
[00:28:42] Adam Grant:
I wanna ask you about maybe my favorite practical point in the book, we get a lot of useful guidance about how to lead and how to collaborate, and you have a sidebar in the book that cracked me up on eating shit. I've been teaching leadership for two decades.
I have never said “Eat shit is one of my key leadership principles.” But you actually persuaded me that it should be.
[00:29:06] Jon M. Chu:
It hit me several times on set when we were shooting Wicked. Every day after the shoot, I would write down one lesson I learned. It could be so random, like what to eat at this hour, or it could be what someone said to me that affected me.
And one of the things that happened was like one of the crew members cut in front of me for something and it wasn't a big deal, but for some reason it rubbed me weird. Maybe 'cause it, it triggered what I felt like when I was younger and, and people don't think I'm the director when I'm on set, when I make a decision as a director, I know people are whispering about whether that decision is right or wrong.
I know when I change something up, there are whispers back there. Or when an actor, I say something, an actor, I walk away. I'm assuming there are conversations that are being had. Sometimes the mic is actually on and I can hear it and I, I realized there's a skill set that I have of being able to just eat it and move on because my job on that set is to make the thing not have a conversation about the thing, not prove I can make the thing not prove to everyone I'm making the right decisions, but to make the damn thing and get it in the can so I can get into that edit room and make the right decisions there.
So the more I clear that off my table, the better. The reason I say eating shit is because it feels like that. It's not an elegant thing.
[00:30:27] Adam Grant:
It's, it's a reminder for anybody who's in a leadership role to take a step back and say, “What matters most here? Am I trying to, to put my ego first or am I trying to prioritize the success of the project?”
[00:30:41] Jon M. Chu:
Yep. And that's, that's what your role is as the leader.
[00:30:50] Adam Grant:
It's fascinating to me that you've taken on Wicked and also Joseph, because you know, on the one hand, probably if we leave Phantom aside, like I've never loved a musical more than Wicked and Joseph. And I'm, I'm sure you love them too. There's a part of me that wonders though, is this also you seeking a challenge?
It's hard for you to feel like an underdog and the fact that these have been such hit musicals, but nobody has been, been able to turn them into movies. Is that the next mountain to climb?
[00:31:15] Jon M. Chu:
You and I are musical soulmates probably because Joseph has been really close to my heart. It's also about a dreamer and so maybe that that connects to both of us.
Yeah, they're both huge challenges and I like that about them. I like trying to figure it out. And also, I promised myself that I would make things that other people couldn't make, and I know how to make these movies that maybe other people don't exactly know how to weave together yet. So, um, I feel like that's my role.
[00:31:44] Adam Grant:
You've had a chance to learn from and collaborate with some of the greatest of the greats.
[00:31:49] Jon M. Chu:
Mm.
[00:31:49] Adam Grant:
Spielberg, Andrew Lloyd Webber. What's the greatest lesson you've learned from working with people of that caliber?
[00:31:55] Jon M. Chu:
That they, no matter how big they are, the greatest of the greats, maybe not the really goods, but the greatest of the greats are still playing and are still loving every moment of it that they are so human.
I don't say genius because I don't think they're are genius people. I think they make genius work and, and they're so good at their craft that they've practiced, rehearsed, whatever, honed their craft so well, which includes their own identity of who they are and what they wanna say. That when those things come together, that is the true magic, that is the true genius that is a result of the practice of their process.
[00:32:37] Adam Grant:
It reminds me of something Elizabeth Gilbert pointed out that once upon a time, instead of saying, “You are a genius, people used to say, you have a genius.”
[00:32:46] Jon M. Chu:
Mm. I need that T-shirt.
[00:32:51] Adam Grant:
I think you can make it.
[00:32:51] Jon M. Chu:
I love that.
[00:32:51] Adam Grant:
All right, let, last question, John. What do you look for in a young filmmaker? What are the qualities in the next John Chu that you wanna see?
[00:33:00] Jon M. Chu:
I look for someone who is extremely curious about human beings and relationships and extremely curious in the grammar of audio visual storytelling because it is a grammar that you need to know the rules are so you can break them, and it is a craft to understand how to work with teams and to understand what they are doing to bring to the table so you can help lead those teams.
It is a discipline to know your history of where stories come from and the stories that move you and where it's been in the past before you, and it takes all of those nerve endings to connect to the heart about, what does that mean to a human being who doesn't care about any of those things.
[00:33:48] Adam Grant:
Oh, that's so well put. Well, I, I can't wait to see who you decide to bet on, and I cannot wait for Wicked and for Joseph.
[00:33:56] Jon M. Chu:
Thank you.
[00:33:57] Adam Grant:
Thank you, John.
[00:33:57] Jon M. Chu:
Thank you, appreciate.
[00:34:02] Adam Grant:
John reminds us that precedent is a poor reason for decisions. It ossifies old practices without a compelling rationale, it doesn't matter how long a tradition has stood. If the old way is wrong, it should be challenged and changed. After all, progress lies in improving the future, not defending the past.
Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown.
Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers.
[00:34:53] Jon M. Chu:
It used to be people always would say, “Oh, you did the Virgin America safety video.” I got more emails about that than anything, and uh, I guess that switched. So.
[00:34:59] Adam Grant:
I miss Virgin America and I loved that video.
[00:35:02] Jon M. Chu:
Sorry about that. She flew it a lot.