Together for 20 years -- but living apart? (Transcript)

[00:00:06] Mona Chalabi:
So Saleem, I have one last mission for you.

[00:00:10] Saleem Reshamwala:
What do you got?

[00:00:11] Mona Chalabi:
I’ve been thinking about how there is still, like, a pretty dominant narrative for long term relationships, right? You date, you fall in love, at some point between those two things, you move in together, and maybe you plan to get married. I mean, is that a narrative that you're familiar with?

[00:00:31] Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, yeah, I definitely see that a lot. I also feel like I'm seeing this shift in all these little different ways around me, my circle of friends is not necessarily hitting all those points in that order. You know, for example, I know a couple who bought a house together while they were dating. It feels like we're in a moment where the order of a lot of these things is shifting around.

[00:00:53] Mona Chalabi:
Absolutely. I think the thing that's interesting is, I know that that's still the dominant narrative because I still feel like all of us who are doing something outside of that, it's considered a deviation from that path.

[00:01:06] Saleem Reshamwala:
Yes.

[00:01:06] Mona Chalabi:
So like, that's the way that you understand your life is kind of relative to that clear cut sense of expectations.

[00:01:13] Saleem Reshamwala:
Yes.

[00:01:13] Mona Chalabi:
And I came across a specific type of relationship that really steps away from that mould in quite an interesting way. So this is called living apart together, or LAT. And LAT couples are in long term relationships, sometimes they're even married, but they intentionally decide not to move in together.

[00:01:33] Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, so it's like they, they skip a step on that traditional progress chart of relationships.

[00:01:40] Mona Chalabi:
Yeah, and it's not that they're skipping and coming back to it later, necessarily. They might just be skipping it altogether. That is not a part of the equation that they're necessarily interested in.

[00:01:51] Saleem Reshamwala:
How big a trend is this? Is it growing? Why are people choosing to not live together? What's it mean or not mean? It, I just have a lot of questions.

[00:02:03] Mona Chalabi:
Me too. Um, I really, really wish I could tell you. Uh, there's just not very much data on LATs just yet. And that kind of made me think more broadly about the things that we do measure and how those are so often defined by social norms and what we deem as important, right?

So... I mean, one of the things that comes up for me that I would really, really love for you to find out about is just like, why is this happening? I don't know. I remember this, um, this really famous quote from Whoopi Goldberg where she was asked about living with a partner and she said something like, “I don't want a man in my house,” and that kind of really resonated with me, honestly. So I personally am super interested in understanding this kind of evolution in a lot more detail as a potential LAT person myself.

[00:02:52] Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, I'm exploring the data-less void into which you might be game to enter.

[00:02:59] Mona Chalabi:
Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:00] Saleem Reshamwala:
Okay, so I'm gonna try and find a LAT couple, ask them about their experience, what it's like not having that step-by-step measuring stick and following a set path and see how it's working out for them.

[00:03:15] Mona Chalabi:
And do me a favor please, Saleem, find me a nice juicy couple that haven't just got together and not moved in together. I want to know that they really, really made this choice. They've been together for a while, and moving in together is just not on the horizon. Can you do that?

[00:03:30] Saleem Reshamwala:
You're not making this incredibly easy for me, but I think with the team of producers… we can. I'm Saleem Reshamwala, and from the TED Audio Collective, this is a special season of Am I Normal?

[BREAK] [00:03:56] Susan Engelhart:
So, the way that he asked me out, I wasn't sure that if I was going out with him or his, his family, his kids, I don't know. I'm Susan Englehart. I'm 59. I'm a recently retired school teacher.

[00:04:10] Mike Webber:
And I'm Mike Webber, and um, I'm 64. Also a special educator. I'm a school psychologist.

[00:04:19] Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Mike's also retired now, but he and Susan worked at the same school for a number of years. They were on friendly terms, but it wasn't until they both got divorced that they really bonded. Still, when Mike asked Susan if she wanted to check out the Main Street Art Festival, she wasn't quite sure how to read the situation at first.

[00:04:38] Susan Engelhart:
So I, he just came to my house, um, and it was just him. Then we walked around, um, wasn't sure if it was a date still, exactly, or this was just a profes—you know, just friends. And when he took my hand and he held my hand, that, that is when I knew that we were on a date.

[00:05:02] Mike Webber:
And then it kind of, uh, developed from there. So we've been in a relationship for 20 years this fall.

[00:05:11] Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Mike and Susan live in Fort Worth, Texas. They've passed that 20 year milestone by the time you're hearing this, by the way. Congratulations to the both of them. And, instead of sticking to the relationship narrative that Mona and I were talking about, they've chosen this other route. They aren't married, and they live apart together, meaning they each have their own separate place. I was curious whether their decision to be in a LAT relationship, or L-A-T, as you'll hear them call it, was intentional from the get go or whether they just kind of slipped into it.

[00:05:48] Mike Webber:
Like everything with us, it kind of slowly evolved. It, like when we first were seeing each other for… on a very regular basis and knew it was gonna be a serious relationship, um, I had teenage kids. So I was pretty involved with them.

Susan, she loves my kids and has been involved but never, you know, she intentionally has not had kids, and so I don't remember an exact time when we said, “This is the way it's gonna be. We're gonna live separately.” But I think we always knew that we're both pretty independent people. We both like our, our homes that we live in and are comfortable in them. Um, we just live a mile apart. And then after a while, we're just like, “Hey, this is going so nicely. There's not really a reason to change anything.”

[00:06:35] Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh yeah, a mile apart, that's not a bad distance.

[00:06:37] Mike Webber:
No, no, in fact we walk pretty regularly and we meet halfway.

[00:06:41] Susan Engelhart:
And we call it our corner.

[00:06:43] Mike Webber:
Yeah.

[00:06:43] Susan Engelhart:
It’s our corner.

[00:06:46] Mike Webber:
Right. I should clarify, at, at one point we did briefly talk about maybe moving in together. Um, I think financially it, it would have helped at one point, bu—

[00:06:65] Saleem Reshamwala:
Sure.

[00:06:57] Mike Webber:
I, I, I think kind of time just proved that that was not gonna be a, a great situation for us.

[00:07:05] Saleem Reshamwala:
And Susan, what were those conversations like for you?

[00:07:09] Susan Engelhart:
I guess more from my side, it was, um, kind of scary to think about moving in together. I'm very independent and do like living in my own house, so I think it's great to have our own separate lives, but then our lives together are just like, it's just that much more special, um, and we are lucky that we just live a mile apart.

[00:07:36] Saleem Reshamwala:
I'm curious if you feel like you avoided some of the power struggles that couples go through when they start living together. I'm thinking of very practical things of like, you know, maybe somebody keeps hitting the snooze button in the morning and that really messes up someone else's sleep. Like, what are the pros and cons of early stage relationships living together or not living together?

[00:08:02] Susan Engelhart:
Whew. Um, I think it's, uh, the pros about not living together. Or, you know, you don't have, you don't have to feel like you have to change for that other person. You don't have the little mundane things and the, you know, the toothbrush or the snooze alarm or the, the way they do laundry.

[00:08:19] Mike Webber:
Yeah, I think it's one of the, one of the absolute, uh, benefits of, of having this type of relationship is that we don't have to divide up labor. Um, we don't have to worry about the other person getting on our nerves because they've over-overstayed their welcome or they have habits that are just too, uh, you know, not in, uh, sync with what you're doing. I was telling Susan: I ran into a friend of mine this morning when I was walking and he was saying, uh, that his wife had been out of the country for three weeks and he goes, “Man, I'm just tired of eating cheese sandwiches.”

I was like, “Come on, dude!” Your, your, tour wife's out of town for three weeks. You could get on YouTube in one day and teach yourself how to cook. This is ridiculous.

[00:09:08] Saleem Reshamwala:
Well, did you have any hesitations around the idea of living separately? So you, you mentioned that it went pretty smoothly. I'm curious what, if any, like really specific conversations happened of “let's chat about what this is gonna look like moving forward” and did you have any doubts along the way?

[00:09:24] Susan Engelhart:
You know, it wasn't so much that we had doubts between the two of us, his children accepted everything just the way it was. They never bothered us and said, uh, put any pressure on us, but you know, some of the d—more distant relatives would say things like, “What do you mean you've been dating for 16 years? When are you gonna get married?” Or, “when are you gonna get engaged? That's the next step.” You know, “That's so weird.”

Um, so we did get that and we just shrugged it off and said, “Well, this is the way it is.” And now, through the LAT Facebook pages, and, and all these articles about LAT couples living apart together, we’ve been really happy to see that, because we know, yeah, we're down here in the southern, you know, United States, so there's all these expectations about what, um, step, step, steps that you have to do when you're in a relationship. You have to go from one step to the next step to the next step to the next step in this amount of time, and we weren't gonna do that. Um, so now I f—we feel more validated.

[00:10:29] Mike Webber:
It, it, like Susan said, it's been very empowering to know that there, there is a growing movement out there of people that are, uh, and it seems to be more people kind of our age, you know, been through the marriage thing, been through raising kids kind of thing.

[00:10:45] Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

[00:10:45] Mike Webber:
And then all of a sudden they're finding themselves where like, you know, we've got a lot more freedom than we know and we can kind of choose to sculpt our relationship however we want. Um, it's just, it's been really nice to kind of have that validation. Um, even though we felt comfortable along, we never felt a lot of pressure to like, “Oh, we shouldn't be doing this. This is crazy.” It, it never felt like that. We knew all along, our relationship was so solid and it just kept getting better every year. And, and I think people, when they saw that, they were like, “Yeah, exactly. You guys seem really happy. More power to you.”

[00:11:28] Susan Engelhart:
And we both have married friends and single friends. And so many of our friends say, “Wow, I wish we could just be like you and Mike. Wish we could be like you and Mike.” Um, you know, young and old.
[00:11:40] Saleem Reshamwala:
What do you think makes people sometimes feel a jealousy around and you know, I say that a light hearted way. But what, what do you think people wish they could pull off?

[00:11:51] Susan Engelhart:
Well, it's just like a first date all the time.

[00:11:54] Saleem Reshamwala:
Mm.

[00:11:54] Susan Engelhart:
Don't you think?

[00:11:55] Mike Webber:
Yeah.

[00:11:55] Susan Engelhart:
You don't have to talk about the dishes. Um, you don't have to talk about finances. You don't have to talk about, you know, what little Sally did at school, you just, um, get to have quality time.

[00:12:08] Saleem Reshamwala:
Hmm.

[00:12:08] Mike Webber:
Yeah, it, like we talk every day, but we don't see each other, but maybe a couple of times a week. And so, you know, I'm just excited when I hear her car driving up the, up the driveway. It's just, I, I feel like kind of tingled in my spine, you know, and yeah. It’s, you know, it's, it's like when you're first dating to kind of keep that going for 20 years. It's just, yeah, I'm still just continually amazed by it.

[00:12:40] Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
It’s kind of, uh, wonderful to hear Mike and Susan talk about the freedom they've gotten by creating their own relationship. It's also interesting that for them, the biggest challenge isn't navigating the living apart separate homes aspect. They've got that figured out.

The biggest challenge—in their eyes—is dealing with other people who expect them to move in together or get married. After the break, I talk to Mike and Susan about whether they wish there was more visibility for L. A. T. couples. And about what the future holds for them. Stick around.

[BREAK]

[00:13:37] Saleem Reshamwala:
You know, there was one thing you said, Mike, that you felt like the relationship was getting better and better over time and that you were growing closer. You know, from the outside, I think people are often wanting to see something, quote-unquote, “progress”, or they want to see something go through stages externally.

[00:14:00] Mike Webber:
Right.

[00:14:01] Saleem Reshamwala:
I’m curious within the relationship, what were the signs for you?

[00:14:05] Mike Webber:
Um, just on, just on pure happiness, you know, just on how satisfied you feel, which I think that's the, that’s the only measure that really matters is, is how happy you feel with the other person. And I think, you know, as time passes and we're like, “Hey, this has been…” You know, particularly like this year is a milestone for us, 20 years. And, and to think that we're at 20 years and things still feel like they're growing, I’m still looking forward to things. I'm still optimistic about our future.

[00:14:42] Saleem Reshamwala:
You know, LATs aren't really reflected in the census or any kind of official survey that collects info about relationships, so they're almost a kind of invisible relationship in certain ways, in certain—

[00:15:49] Mike Webber:
Exactly, yeah.

[00:15:49] Saleem Reshamwala:
—uh, officially measured ways. Do you ever wish that it was a box you could check somewhere?

[00:15:04] Mike Webber:
I… Yeah, that's an interesting one. We always run into that like, like, what Susan and I have grappled with what we call each other. Like, when you're 64 and you know, you say you got a girlfriend. It's just, it sounds a little—

[00:15:18] Susan Engelhart:
It’s—

[00:15:18] Mike Webber:
—a little quaint, you know, so we've not really come up with, with good terms to call each other. And you can say I'm in an LAT relationship, but yeah, nobody really knows what that is either. So…

[00:15:33] Saleem Reshamwala:
I'm curious for y'all. Do you think you'll live together in the future?

[00:15:39] Susan Engelhart:
Um, you know, it may happen. It may not. You know, I guess as we get older, you know, one of us may have some health problems, and we wouldn't hesitate, um, putting our heads together on that, figuring out what we need to do. If we had to sell both of our houses and get a new house, um, I'm sure we can make that work and we'd be okay. So it, it’s not out of the realm of possibility. We're not gonna flat out say no.

[00:16:11] Saleem Reshamwala:
Susan, I heard you are thinking of what a house for an LAT couple would look like. It threw me off for a second because living apart together, I don't first think about living in a house together as living apart, but tell me a bit about what you're envisioning when you say a house for an LAT couple.

[00:16:35] Susan Engelhart:
I think they should design houses. For LAT couples who are finally gonna live together under the same sort of roof, you know, mainly because, you know, I'm visual, he's auditory, so he loves his records; he's got a big, big, big record collection, and I'm more, uh, visual. I watch a lot of, you know, documentaries and we're gonna need two living rooms on the opposite sides of the house.

Uh, I think you should have two living rooms, one communal kitchen, um, a communal, you know, sort of outside patio area. You wouldn't have to have two of those. But, um, and then, you know, we've always been fascinated with, uh, Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera. They had a house. And it was two stand alone kind of houses with a little bridge on the second floor that went back and forth into each other's house. And I thought that would be great too, um, especially if we were older. Um, so what do you think?

[00:17:33] Mike Webber:
I, I, I see people talk about it. You know, people talk about, like, buying a duplex and having, you know, each live on, on one side. Um, I've even seen somebody posted some pictures of, like, two tiny houses together that were on the same property that were, that were connected.

I don't want to live in a tiny house, but, uh, you know, yeah. I mean, I could, I could see that. Or, yeah, if you could design your own, that could be a possibility too.

[00:18:01] Saleem Reshamwala:
Well, if there's any architects or developers listening, it sounds like there might be a market for this at some point.

[00:18:15] Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
I love that Mike and Susan have figured out their boundaries and their own goals. I mean, they're even starting to dream up literal blueprints for a house that could contain their relationship. Since this is the last episode of our special season, I wanted to bring Mona back in to help wrap things up.

[00:18:39] Saleem Reshamwala:
Hey, Mona.

[00:18:40] Mona Chalabi:
Hi Saleem, I am back. What have you learned?
[00:18:43] Saleem Reshamwala:
Okay, so big picture: a lot of times we think about statistics as an answer. Sometimes it's literally an answer, like on a multiple choice test. But in the real world, it kind of isn't the answer lots of times. It’s more of a point of departure. Even when you have a data point that seems to reflect some aspect of your life That number alone can't communicate or contain delightful, complicated, messy reality.

[00:19:13] Mona Chalabi:
Totally. Like, data is so good at telling us this kind of clean and sanitized version of the what, but it rarely tells us why something is the way that it is.

[00:19:26] Saleem Reshamwala:
So, now I've got a tricky question for you.

[00:19:29] Mona Chalabi:
Okay.

[00:19:29] Saleem Reshamwala:
I’ve had so much fun doing this, but there's been something in the back of my head through this experiment. We have had a whole team of producers and researchers and fact checkers to consult with. We've had the time to find a person who fits a data point, to schedule and perform an in-depth interview with them.

[00:19:52] Mona Chalabi:
Right.

[00:19:53] Saleem Reshamwala:
And I've had you to help me think through what data is and what it isn't.

[00:19:58] Mona Chalabi:
Uh huh.

[00:19:59] Saleem Reshamwala:
But now that this special series is over, and I won't have you or that team with me all the time, what do I do when I come across interesting data points in the wild without all that help? How can I keep good practices around, you know, remembering how to use the data I'm learning?

[00:20:20] Mona Chalabi:
I would say… My advice would be to think of someone you love. And if you think about someone that you really, really care about, the idea of them kind of just being distilled to a set of percentages and decimal places feels like it just doesn't come close to capturing everything about that person, including the things that make them special and unique. And I think that when you hold someone that you love in your mind and go out into the world with, with a set of questions that are aimed at better understanding them, hopefully, the end result is that you understand a lot of other people a whole lot better.

[00:20:59] Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, I love how actionable that is. I love this idea that when I see a data set, I bring in someone I love into that equation and soften some of the assumptions I might be bringing to it.

[00:21:13] Mona Chalabi:
I love that. Softening assumptions is exactly right. We are all outliers in all kinds of ways, and the statistics just don't tell you everything that you need to know about the world around us. And thank you for helping show that this season.

[00:21:29] Saleem Reshamwala:
Thank you so much. It's been a gift to be a part of it. And… here we go, everybody. Let's move through the world with slightly softer assumptions.

Am I Normal is part of the TED Audio Collective. This special series is hosted by me, Saleem Reshamwala. The episode was produced by Daphne Chen and edited by Sara Nics. Our team includes JoAnn DeLuna, Constanza Gallardo, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Roxanne Hai-Lash, and Jimmy Gutierrez. Jennifer Nam is our researcher and fact-checker. original theme song by Sasami Sarah Bruguiere is our mix engineer.

Special thanks to Sharon Hyman, Vicki Larson, and members of the LAT Facebook group who spoke with us for this episode. And huge thanks to Mona Chalabi for bringing me on this data scavenger hunt. It's been a joy.