Jacinda Ardern on leading with empathy and overcoming self-doubt (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

Jacinda Ardern: If you feel things deeply and you have experiences that are riddled with crisis and with grief, then you are going to pay a price, but a one that you're willing to pay. 

Adam Grant: Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my TED podcast on the science of what makes us tick. I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guest today is Dame Jacinda Ardern. She was the Prime Minister of New Zealand, she's the author of the new book A Different Kind of Power, and she also has a new documentary out called Prime Minister. I'm excited to talk with her about empathetic leadership, why kindness is not weakness but strength, how she managed imposter syndrome, and what she's rethought when it comes to leading through COVID.

Jacinda Ardern: I rebel against the idea of optimism as naivety. It is a choice, and not only is a choice, it implies actually something that is required in difficult circumstances in order to succeed.

Adam Grant: Dame Jacinda Ardern, welcome to ReThinking. Or should I say kia ora? 

Jacinda Ardern: You should say kia ora, and you should also just say Jacinda. It's, it's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Adam Grant: Welcome. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I've studied your leadership from a distance for half a decade now. 

Jacinda Ardern: Which is a very aging thing to say, but thank you. I appreciate it. 

Adam Grant: Well, we're the same age, so I don't feel that way at all. But I have so many things I'm, I'm curious to talk to you about. But I wanna start with the dedication of your book. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm. 

Adam Grant: It was so unusual. So are you saying you're a crier and a hugger and a worrier too? 

Jacinda Ardern: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I'd add a few things to that list, but yeah. Uh, I'd noticed that anyone who had listened to my departure speech from the New Zealand parliament would from time to time come up and behind a closed hand would whisper either that they, you know, that they themselves were a bit of a crier or a bit of a hugger, as if it was some kind of secret society. And so it occurred to me that there is perhaps this group of people who exclude themselves potentially from leadership because they see themselves in that way, and because we're so attuned to seeing those character traits as being inconsistent with leadership. And so I really wanted to speak to those who whisper behind a closed hand. And so that was the dedication for me.

You know, I feel like I have nothing to lose by talking about that. I talk about imposter syndrome as well, or people who have a confidence gap, because I think it's wrong to assume these things are incompatible with leadership. 

Adam Grant: I think so too. In fact, um, Basima Tewfik’s research suggests that imposter thoughts are more common among people who are extremely high achievers.

Jacinda Ardern: Well, I see, I have, I have no evidence to back up these assumptions, but I have noticed from the conversations that perhaps I've been more inclined to have because I've talked openly about this, that some of the people that I really respect and admire fall into that category themselves. And in fact, you know, it was one of my favorite teachers in high school who first introduced this concept to me, and because the first person who talked about it was someone that I thought couldn't possibly suffer from this, and who was so incredible that it created this mindset for me that, you know, sometimes great people doubt themselves. We don't talk about it a lot. Maybe we should. 

Adam Grant: Well, let's. So I think there's, there's a difference between debilitating doubt, which is, you know, I'm a fraud. It's only a matter of minutes until everyone finds out. And maybe more motivating doubt, which is I wonder if I'm as good as other people think I am? I wonder if I'm up to this challenge.

Jacinda Ardern: I totally agree with you. It's clearly a spectrum. And, you know, as much as I talk about the fact that, what I describe as a confidence gap, that idea that if someone suggests to you should step up to something, your immediate thought is all of the reasons why you're not capable of doing something of that nature. And, and that can lend itself to you excluding yourself from those opportunities. However, those same things that might cause you to hold back or worry that you know, you might not have enough information to do a role competently, are the same things that can drive you to better prepare, to bring in advice and to bring in experts. And I think that there's some advantage to that in leadership. But again, you're right, there's a spectrum there, and I think we have to really be careful that it doesn't tip into a space where it's so overwhelming that you can't possibly move beyond it. 

Adam Grant: Well, so I wanna understand from you how. Um, you became Prime Minister at age 37.

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: Which makes me feel like what am I doing with my life? Um, but so young to be, I think at the time you were the, the youngest female head of state in the world? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. Soon overtaken by Sanna Marin, but at that time, yeah. 

Adam Grant: I mean, it's just, it's so hard to imagine being that young and being in such a high position of power and status. So what were the imposter thoughts and feelings like then, and how did you manage them? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah, in a way they were both exacerbated and also simultaneously overcome by circumstance, because it wasn't the case that I pursued that level of higher office. In fact, you know, to give a little bit of background, I was the deputy leader in our party, and that, that doesn't mean that you are necessarily next in line, just means that I was a good, loyal foot soldier who was in support of the leader. But there I was in this role, I'd only been in there since March of 2017, and we were coming into a, another election. And we'd been in opposition for nine years when our polling really wasn't looking good. And so the latest poll came in and my leader privately said to me, I don't know if I can do it. I tried to encourage him to stay for all the reasons that I've discussed. So in lots of ways it did really feel like the decision flipped from being one that I proactively could pursue or would pursue to just simply being a question of responsibility. Leadership, and a sense of responsibility to take on something fast, can sometimes override self-doubt. And maybe that's not a bad push and pull.

Adam Grant: Yeah. I, I think that's actually a really healthy attitude. It tracks with what in psychology, we would distinguish between seeing leadership as an opportunity versus a responsibility. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. I am interested though, in those circumstances, what does it mean for them leaving at a healthy point? If you feel a burden of responsibility, how long does that carry through?

Adam Grant: I think people who are in it for somewhat self-serving reasons, they're very eager to claim the identity and the title of leadership, and they're very hesitant to, to loosen their grip on it. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: And I, I think your instincts are right, that the opposite might be true for people who are more reluctant. 

Jacinda Ardern: And certainly in political leadership. You can't really canvas widely the decision to leave, because it is something that if it's found out or heard, the decision gets taken out of your hands. So that was challenging and the departure was a lonely decision for that reason. 

Adam Grant: Well, I wanna talk more about that. Before we get there, though... 

Jacinda Ardern: I've jumped straight to leaving.

Adam Grant: I mean, eagerly, right? I think one, one thing that's really interesting about how you narrated your own feelings of being an imposter is you called yourself a loyal foot soldier. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: And that, that says to me that your identity was follower, not leader. 

Jacinda Ardern: It's certainly how I viewed myself. Uh, it is an interesting, I think, practice though, that in politics there's an assumption that if you go into it, you must be motivated by a level of personal ambition. And that's really born out by the fact that so many people will ask you, oh, so when are you gonna be Prime Minister? Or when are you gonna be leader? Assuming that everyone who goes into it must have that ambition. Whereas I can't think of many examples where that would be the case, say, in the private sector. So that is a burden that politics carries. That that is the motivating factor, when actually there's plenty of people that that is not the case. That's not why they're there. That's not what motivates them. 

Adam Grant: So your boss quits.

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: And you assume you're gonna lose at that point, right? 

Jacinda Ardern: Certainly. Even if it was unspoken, the assumption was try not to lose too badly. And so maybe that lessened the pressure. But that unfortunately was not the position throughout the campaign. It shifted. 

Adam Grant: Okay. And then at some point you realized this is happening.

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: What did that do to the, the feeling of being an imposter? 

Jacinda Ardern: Soon as I became leader, there was no time to dwell on that confidence gap, because the sense of responsibility completely took over. And I knew that I just had to lead with confidence, that I had to focus on the job that I had and that anything else just felt self-indulgent, you know. I just needed to move forward, put it away in a box. The issue though, became that the pressure really increased. In my mind, not to sound too grandiose, but when you're in politics because you think that you can make a difference, you know, suddenly you are thinking about people's wellbeing, whether you're gonna have the opportunity to do something on housing and climate and child poverty, and those are big issues to feel a weight of responsibility around. But up against that, you know, my little personal confidence gap just needed to, just needed to sit in a corner for a while. 

Adam Grant: Just lock it away. 

Jacinda Ardern: Lock it away. 

Adam Grant: So it's interesting though that you said the, the responsibility that you felt just, it, it took over. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Because one impression I got from reading the book was that in some ways that sense of responsibility got you in trouble when you were younger. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: Which is a little counterintuitive, but you, you talk about how the desire to be useful was sometimes problematic. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. Yeah. 

Adam Grant: So tell me about that. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: And how it then played into life as a new Prime Minister.

Jacinda Ardern: So interesting, 'cause, and there's some things that you don't necessarily see the through lines on in your life until you write them down and suddenly you're like, ah. Huh, there it is. You know, just writing about just the little day to day things of childhood and you know, for example, out on an orchard owned by my grandparents, and I would've only been about four. And I just loved going into the old cool store sheds and seeing the way that the conveyors with all of the fruit worked, and the packing house and the tractors bringing the bins in and out, and I was up there trying to, you know, figure out what I could do in that little space when I found one of the machines for packing boxes and had a little play with it and ended up slicing my face. I have a little scar down my nose to this day. I was always there trying to be a bit older than I was. You know, thinking that I was being useful and all of the things that I remember about those early conversations, being really chuffed whenever I felt like I'd done something that was beyond my age or stronger than I was meant to be. So, yeah mate, it, I guess it manifested early, and not through politics. 

Adam Grant: Yeah. I mean, this is something I feel like I've done a really poor job capturing in the work that I've done on givers versus takers. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm. 

Adam Grant: Where I've found lots of benefits of being somebody who enjoys helping others without strings attached. And many long-term costs of being someone who is, is all about me. But there is this sense in which no good deed goes unpunished. And people say that the road to hell is sometimes paved with good intentions. So how did, how did you manage that as Prime Minister early on? 

Jacinda Ardern: You know, I think that in writing about how it feels to lead when you are driven by empathy and compassion and, and a sense of duty, you know, it meant sharing a little bit of insight as to the toll that that takes, but there's a privilege to that as well. Even in the hardest moments, I think you never lose sight of the fact that you have that proximity to grief because of the role that you have, and unlike many other experiences where you feel, oh, you know, this is such a horrific thing that's happened, what can I do? Suddenly you're in a place where you can do something about it. So yeah, maybe you do pay a price, but a one that you're willing to pay. If that makes sense. 

Adam Grant: It does, it does. In psychology, we would say, let's not talk about compassion fatigue. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Because it's not compassion that drains you. It's empathic to stress. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: It's the, the feeling of hurting for someone else, but not being able to help.

Jacinda Ardern: Thank you for putting some language to it, because I've never been able to fully explain it. 

Adam Grant: That's literally all I can do, so. 

Jacinda Ardern: But it is, it is so true. You know, I think about how horrific the grief around March 15 was. And, and I, my real sense in that moment from New Zealanders, who just felt that grief so acutely, was they wanted, in that moment, politics and leadership to, to do something. And so when people say, how, for instance, did you manage to change gun legislation so quickly? Because that law passed to ban military style and semi-automatic weapons. That law passed with 119 votes in favor and one opposed within 27 days of the attack.

Adam Grant: Wow. 

Jacinda Ardern: And, and I absolutely believe it was because of that strong desire to just channel that grief into a response.

Adam Grant: So when I think about your leadership on the world stage, um, certainly I think that mass shooting is a visible example. I think of you being in your late thirties and pregnant. That's another, another example that probably... 

Jacinda Ardern: They call that a geriatric pregnancy. 

Adam Grant: I don't think that's a helpful framing for anyone.

Jacinda Ardern: I mean, so I keep putting it out there in the hope that someone says, yeah, we should change that. 

Adam Grant: How about a wise pregnancy? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. That's why I said seasoned. Something. 

Adam Grant: That works. Um, I'd love to hear you talk both about what it meant for you to lead with kindness and then also what was it like to be welcoming a child at the same time that you're taking the helm of a country.

Jacinda Ardern: Two very, very big questions. I think when we think about these ideas of kindness, you know, we often think about the manifestation of that in policy delivery. And sure that was a, you know, a big thing for us. But also I wanted to change the way we did politics and the way that we governed, which I think is equally important. I don't think it's fair to say, well, we are gonna be a government of kindness, but I'm gonna engage in the most horrific political attacks with my opponents you can imagine. And so we from the outset said, okay, we want, I want us to be relentlessly positive and that I wasn't going to attack my opponents on personal matters. We were going to stick to the issues. And I tried to maintain that the entire time I was in office as well. And so, you know, Prime Minister Anthony Albanese in Australia has spoken of this idea of conflict fatigue, and I think it's real. And I think the more that you hear conflict between politicians, the less you believe that politicians are focused on the things that are affecting you. So for us, it was about what we did, but how we did it as well. And kindness for me was a good guiding principle on both. 

Adam Grant: So the other, I guess the other thing that surfaces for me is either like you, you get rid of the fatigue factor or you create an adverse selection problem where the kinds of people who enjoy conflict, who are sometimes called conflict entrepreneurs, um, who are intensely disagreeable, who are Machiavellian, who might be narcissistic or sociopathic, are the ones who are attracted to office. And I don't think we want that either. 

Jacinda Ardern: Exactly, and that's where this gets really interesting when people say, well, the idea of, you know, compassionate or empathetic leadership can't survive. Well what is the alternative? And I think we do want people who have humility and, and value those traits to be in politics. And, and I do think we're in a period where good people are self excluding because they see a very particular leadership style that is not necessarily who we want in our representative politics. The flip side, however, which, you know, I think we also had to end up being mindful of, if you are within your team building an approach where you do wanna do things differently, how do you still allow or create an environment where people are able to bring ideas that might be counter to others? That you are engaging still in respectful debate? Because you do run the risk of this kind of consensus bias because you don't wanna rock the boat of your friendly team environment. So that almost was what we had to be mindful of. 

Adam Grant: I love on its face the idea of, you know, not engaging in personal attacks in politics. But I also see leaders on the world stage whose character needs to be attacked. Because they fail to stand for principles that I think you hold dear. Leaders who are not kind, leaders who are not humble, for example. 

Jacinda Ardern: There is a place to hold that to account, because you're doing it every day and the way that's manifesting in the policy decision someone's making, you absolutely can test that. But if I give you an example. It might be, for instance, that something's happened in someone's life that brings into question their personal behavior. If that was not a member of my team, then I considered that to be an issue of discipline for that team and their leadership. So I wouldn't pile in on that. That was a leadership issue for them, and I was in charge of managing my own team's conduct and behavior. So that was the way I would draw a distinction. 

Adam Grant: Got it. Okay. That's helpful. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: Okay. So now, um, pregnancy. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. It's a small matter. 

Adam Grant: Yeah. Tiny topic. But I'm so curious about the simultaneous experience of welcoming a child into the world and feeling that responsibility at the same time that you're responsible for a whole country. 

Jacinda Ardern: Feels very similar. 

Adam Grant: Does it? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah, it can do. It can do. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, I, I thought about this a lot, and while you, you know, it's not exactly the same thing, that push and pull of where you're meant to be and who you're meant to be with was very acute in that particular role. But the timing of everything was probably, I mean, pretty poor on my part, because whilst we were in coalition negotiations to find out would this minor party who had the balance of power, would they choose my party or would they choose the conservative party? Uh, and if they chose mine, I would become the Prime Minister. And we were close to the end of those negotiations when I found out I was pregnant. And of course, my immediate thought was, well, I mean this is, this is, this is one for the books. But also, I can't share this because the pregnancy may not hold. Uh, and also, gosh, what will people think? You know? Will they think that I wasn't prioritizing this, this role? And there was so much more to it, but I couldn't say that at the time.

Adam Grant: Well, it won't surprise you there's evidence that actually parents tend to be more focused and more productive than people who are single and childless, because when you have a lot on your plate, you get really good at prioritizing. 

Jacinda Ardern: You just got that old saying. It also made me think it's interesting 'cause I remember when I had Neve. I really remember thinking, sole parents are superhuman. How do people do this on their own? How do they do it on their own? And so it definitely made me think about that individual human experience in, in much greater detail. 

Adam Grant: So I think you, you referenced the, the need both for humility and for dissent in debate earlier. And I wanna, I wanna talk more about that, because I think nowhere was that more relevant than in the early days of COVID. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: That's, for me, the other iconic image of you, is like watching you on a video screen in a sweatshirt, delivering an address to a nation. 

Jacinda Ardern: It's, it's such an unfortunate association, a pandemic, but it is what it is.

Adam Grant: No, but it, it, I thought it stood out as a model of both clear communication, but also caring leadership. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: To show symbolically, Hey, I'm, I'm in lockdown with you. 

Jacinda Ardern: Right. Yeah. 

Adam Grant: I think the, when I think about the early days of COVID, I think about that as the kind of situation where I tell leaders they have to be both fast and slow at the same time.

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Which is uniquely difficult, right? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: 'Cause you're making decisions that are highly consequential. They're also irreversible, and so you have to get it right, but you also can't afford to delay. 

Jacinda Ardern: No. 

Adam Grant: And so I, I imagine you felt this tremendous tension between being decisive and also encouraging people to disagree and bring in different perspectives.

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: How did you manage that? 

Jacinda Ardern: I think this is where some of the old hangovers of things like self-doubt, you know, or your way of managing that for most people is to over prepare. Just bring in as much information as you can. Try and become the subject expert so that you're not caught short.

Adam Grant: Stall, stall stall.

Jacinda Ardern: Well, I wouldn't necessarily see it as a stall, but rather just ensuring that you have a level of preparedness on an issue. And what I found helpful, therefore, is because I had that habit, it meant that when it came to decision making I was probably more decisive, because I had done as much preparatory work as I could on understanding this virus, and also was no hesitation to bring in experts. I, I wanted to speak to everyone that I could. When it came to the importance of trying to build consensus as much as you could, at a time that was really scary for people, transparency was key. Just being really clear. We don't have all the answers, but this is everything we have, and this is our plan in an imperfect decision making environment. And I think in a way that built trust, and you know, there's some of that interesting data around, you know, trust in government and institutions increasing for a period in 2020. Certainly in our case it did. But then I think the really interesting thing is it ebbed away. 

Adam Grant: I do wanna highlight for me, your communication during that time was just, it was a masterclass in leading with what I've come to think of as confident humility.

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: That on the one hand you're saying like, here is the best information I have, and we're gonna formulate policy based on that. And at the same time there's a lot of uncertainty, and as science evolves, our plans are, are gonna evolve with it. And I've watched so many leaders screw that up here in the US just saying like, vaccines are safe and effective and everyone needs to take them. I'm like, well, how safe? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: And how effective and for whom? 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: And being unwilling to acknowledge how many scientific questions were questions without answers. How did you find the confidence to admit what you didn't know?

Jacinda Ardern: In my mind, all of the questions that you have as a leader, you can assume are going to generally be the questions that others will have as well. And so share that, you know, use that as a bit of a guide. What are you worried about in terms of information gap? Speak to that. We falsely make the assumption that we are only going to build confidence in leaders if we demonstrate absolute knowledge, absolutely. But actually no human expects that. In fact, I think if you try and portray that or imply that, people immediately were like, how do you know? How do you know? And then COVID was such a good example. It was so clear to people that we didn't know because if we did, we wouldn't have had such variation in people's responses globally. So speaking to what intuitively people felt, you don't have all the answers, so don't try and tell me you do. I think it helped build trust and confidence and it meant that when you did come out and say, based on what we have, we believe this is the best response at this time. Then people I think could say, well, actually, I've been on this information journey with you and I, I think that it's the case too. It is interesting that that second phase of the pandemic was when things became really difficult. And so much of that was in correlation for the period of time when we had vaccine rollout, and I leave it to experts to tell us and share with us what we should learn from that. But we weren't starting from a blank canvas. You know, we've had issues around vaccine hesitancy, which actually was the predominant issue, was hesitancy. But we saw equally other complicating factors at that time as well. There was fatigue with the whole COVID experience. There was disinformation, there was even in some cases, you know, a bit of interference offshore with what was going on. So complex environment, and it got hard. It got really hard. 

Adam Grant: So you, you captured I think three of, of my hunches about what was going on in terms of preexisting vaccine hesitancy and misinformation. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Uh, or disinformation and then fatigue. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: If I could add three more to the table, I'd love to get your reaction. Um, one, one that loomed large for me was psychological reactance. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: Threats to the loss of freedom. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: The mandates in particular around vaccines.

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: The mandates around lockdowns. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: There, there was a, at least a large, I would say, a minority of people in many countries who said the government should not control my freedom.

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. Yeah. And I think what was important for us was in the aftermath to ask experts to look at actually all of the tools, because the really unfortunate issue we all face is that we had a horrific experience with a pandemic, but it's unlikely to be the only experience and we need, we need to try and learn from it so that we are better prepared. My concern is that it was so horrific that people don't wanna talk about it, and they don't wanna reflect on those experiences, and I understand that, but we need some people to. 

Adam Grant: I am wholeheartedly with you on that, and I guess there's a part of me that wonders, you know, just thinking about that curve that you're describing of trust going up and then it, it falling dramatically. I think you were a distinctive victim of that, maybe in part because of a combination of the tall poppy syndrome issue, the cultural context in which nobody is allowed to stand out or get too big for their britches. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes, yes. 

Adam Grant: Which you alluded to earlier. And then also like just the stereotypes and prejudice that still exist around women in leadership. Because it's, it's striking to me that you didn't bring either of them up. 

Jacinda Ardern: I didn't bring them up, I guess for two reasons. One is because I never wanna give the appearance that there's no issue to be looked at, you know, somehow everything else going on rather than my own personal leadership or decisions. I do think we should, as politicians be held to account, and even though there was a bunch of circumstances going on at the time that made those decision making really hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't go back and look critically at them. The, the other reason I think is that actually there was a, almost a universal theme to some of what we saw globally, and some of those cultures don't have the same issue with tall poppy, and some of them had male leaders. And so there was something that happened in that time with everyone, not just for women in politics or women in leadership. And certainly, you know, not just for me, but I've never found much use in personalizing it, if that makes sense.

Adam Grant: It does, it does. But I, I have to say, as a social scientist, when, when I look at the data, you can see this at two levels. One is comparing countries around the world. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: The other is comparing states within the US. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm. Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: In the early phases of the pandemic, states and countries led by women had lower mortality rates.

Jacinda Ardern: Mm, mm. 

Adam Grant: Um, and that seems to be driven by clearer and more empathetic communication around policies. And so, you know, we, we have the data, right? We know what's the counterfactual? How many more thousands of people would've died if you hadn't taken the action you did? 

Jacinda Ardern: 20,000. 

Adam Grant: 20,000. We can document that, right?

Jacinda Ardern: Mm. When you do have independent research that says, we think that this approach saved 20,000 lives, it's very hard then to think about dispassionately, well, is there a way that we could have done that without some of these other things? The answer is, I don't know. But I wanna ask the question. 

Adam Grant: That speaks to a distinction you make in the book between regret and remorse.

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: Tell me about that. 

Jacinda Ardern: Regret has so much clarity. I regret X, Y, or Z. Remorse is I have sadness for some of the outcomes. But please tell me what, what we should have done differently. I guess that's how I would express it. But am I, am I unhappy we saved lives? No. 

Adam Grant: No. And and I'm guessing if, you know, back in 2019, if somebody had asked you, you have a choice, you can either unite people and lose more lives.

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Or you can save lives and the country will be more divided. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: You would've made the choice you made. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, there are micro moments where I knew that was the choice I was making, or at least I felt at that time that was the choice I was making. Some of the decisions that, at that time I thought, there's so much fatigue. People are so tired. But it, you know, we still held, held the belief that we, we needed to keep going while we were vaccinating people. I knew that those were unpopular choices, but, you know, I guess that's leadership.

Adam Grant: So I wanna, I wanna bring this back then to tall poppy syndrome because I... 

Jacinda Ardern: Is this a worldwide phrase?

Adam Grant: No. 

Jacinda Ardern: So it's very New Zealand. We know it very well. 

Adam Grant: Australia and New Zealand is, is where I know the, the research at least. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. I appreciate this so much about New Zealand. When you are in politics, you are there to serve, you are there to do a job on behalf of others and it's a privilege. And at the same time, whilst you have that role, don't come above your station. Most New Zealanders will remember an MP, we had a few other things going on, but actually the trigger for his resignation was that in a, a restaurant once he got into some kind of altercation and he responded, "don't you know who I am ?"Oh, you do not. 

How dare 

Adam Grant: you? 

Jacinda Ardern: You absolutely do not talk like that in New Zealand. And I appreciate that New Zealanders have that egalitarian sense, that they expect humility. The flip side of that is this idea of if New Zealanders do well or if they're achieving, we will be really proud of them. But there's an expectation that you don't ever get too big for your boots, and I guess that's where the tall poppy comes in.

Adam Grant: Yeah, very much so. Well, okay, so you were eager to talk about stepping down. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. 

Adam Grant: The choice to resign. 

Jacinda Ardern: We're gonna fast forward here. 12 months has passed. 12 months has passed. It's kind of important for me. It's not like COVID, leave. There was time. 

Adam Grant: Yeah, no, a lot of time. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: How did you decide to step down and when to step down?

Jacinda Ardern: I, um, I had a series of kind of micro moments, and there wasn't just this one thing for me. I gave my reasoning, my rationale, my thinking when I left, you know, that actually I didn't have enough in the tank. I knew enough of disaster to know what you need to have in reserve. It wasn't the case that I was burnt out. You know, I wasn't in the fetal position in the corner. But I felt that same weight of responsibility to make sure that at any given moment I could step up a little bit further. And that was waning after five years and, and after 15 years in politics generally. And so I just shared the micro moments. Going through that decision making, no one particularly supported my decision. So it, it did feel lonely. Um, but it still felt like the right one for me. I also talk a little bit about how I, I did feel that there was a heightened sentiment. You know, some of this probably in the aftermath of COVID. Naturally, if you lead through something like that, you're gonna carry some of the baggage of that, and I wanted to bring the temperature down. And I thought perhaps if I sat at the center, my departure might do that. And that would be for the good of politics. It would be for the good of my party. It would be for the good of holding on to so many of the important things I felt we'd made progress on. 

Adam Grant: So it sounds like in some ways it was a choice to be a lightning rod.

Jacinda Ardern: I kind of describe it as being, you know, as you say, a flashpoint. Maybe just being unfortunately just symbolically representing a really hard time that everyone went through. Uh, I remember during COVID, because we by and large had a strategy that we lived without COVID. It meant that if we had one case, if we could not figure out where that case had come from, we might have to either lock down a particular part of the country, or if it was particularly worrying, the whole country, for short periods of time. And I started to worry that when people saw me unexpectedly arrive on a podium, that I would suddenly become this trigger. And even going through airport security, if they saw a particular kind of rush of us moving through to get to Wellington, I thought, oh, people are gonna know. And I hated representing that for people. It was just part of par of the course, but there's probably a long term effect for that. And so, yeah, I, I thought that was part of my thinking. Not in total, but it was part of my thinking.

Adam Grant: All right. So let's do a lightning round if you're ready for it. 

Jacinda Ardern: I hate those. 

Adam Grant: You're, you're not gonna hate this one. 

Jacinda Ardern: Okay. 

Adam Grant: Uh, who is your dream dinner party guest that you haven't met? 

Jacinda Ardern: Can they be dead? 

Adam Grant: Sure. 

Jacinda Ardern: Ernest Shackleton. 

Adam Grant: Okay. Gonna be hard to arrange that one. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah, I know, but still you ask for the dream guest, so there it is.

Adam Grant: I'll take it. Uh, what's the worst leadership advice you see given regularly? 

Jacinda Ardern: Ooh. I see an absence of something. I think we should encourage sleep more. Because people martyr themselves, especially in leadership. Yep. 

Adam Grant: Best advice for breaking a glass ceiling. 

Jacinda Ardern: Just think about the person that's following. Just gives you an extra motivation. You're carving a path for someone. 

Adam Grant: Trailblazing. 

Jacinda Ardern: Trailblazing. 

Adam Grant: What's something you've changed your mind about recently? 

Jacinda Ardern: Oh, I change my mind all the time. Well. I changed my mind about writing a book. I was adamant, adamant I wasn't going to, and then I did, so. 

Adam Grant: You, you seem to end up doing a lot of the things you really don't wanna do.

Jacinda Ardern: There's a pattern. 

Adam Grant: Uh, and then what's a question you have for me? 

Jacinda Ardern: What do you see most absent in political leadership? 

Adam Grant: Oh my gosh. I mean it's, it's a deficit. It's a series of deficits of character. I think our politics are dominated by narcissism and selfishness, and I think we should lead with generosity and humility. And if I could pick a third, integrity. 

Jacinda Ardern: Do you think that's because people self exclude, or because there aren't incentives to behave like that and succeed? 

Adam Grant: I think it has to be a combination of the two. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: I think there's a self-selection problem and a, a recruiting problem, but I think the incentives and norms need to be dramatically overhauled.

Jacinda Ardern: Do you think social media has been a democratizer or problematic for the health of democracy? 

Adam Grant: I think it's been some of both. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: But my view has tilted more negative over time as we've seen more polarization. 

Jacinda Ardern: Mm-hmm. 

Adam Grant: That was more than one lightning question for you, Jacinda. Um, okay, let me, let me, uh, let me take the mic back here.

Jacinda Ardern: I was told I was allowed to ask questions. 

Adam Grant: You, I mean, you are, but I do wanna ask you, when you stepped down on this very point, you said you still believe that politics was a place where it was possible to drive positive change. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: Do you still think that now? 

Jacinda Ardern: I do. Yep, I do. And, and what I hope is that people don't change their expectation of that as well. I speak to this a bit because for me it's really important that in these moments people maintain their own optimism, but also their expectation. Because the moment we have indifference, that is a hall pass to politicians. So you know, to anyone, if you have a particular expectation around the way that you believe politics should be done and, you know, what should be delivered, then don't let that standard drop. If anything, raise it. 

Adam Grant: What is it that gives you that sense of confidence and hope? 

Jacinda Ardern: Just exposure. Exposure to people. You know, proximity to young people, you know, inherently, we know that young people tend to be more cynical in their youth. But in amongst that cynicism, I still see an optimism. Well, you know, I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z in spite of the leadership I see around me. And so that's a cause. That's a cause for hope. 

Adam Grant: The first time we met a few months ago, you said something that really stuck with me. You said optimism is an act of courage. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yes. Yes. 

Adam Grant: What do you mean by that? 

Jacinda Ardern: So I have long had a obsession with Antarctic exploration and Ernest Shackleton, who found himself stranded in Antarctica. And keeping in mind this is, you know, during the period of the first World War, so technology and communications weren't great, and here he is suddenly responsible for his team on the ice when his ship has sunk, no one knows that they're stranded, and his job is their survival. And the fact that during that period, he also saw that survival was dependent on their mindset. And he was the one that said, optimism is true moral courage. So you know, in my mind that actually undercuts this sentiment, at least that you have sometime, that hope or optimism is naive. It is a choice and not only is a choice, ,it implies actually something that is required in difficult circumstances and trying circumstances in order to succeed.

Adam Grant: Okay. Last question for you to take us full circle. Uh, we talked about empathy earlier, and you referenced being somewhat thin skinned. 

Jacinda Ardern: Yeah. 

Adam Grant: And you said you don't want a thicker skin. 

Jacinda Ardern: No. 

Adam Grant: Why don't you want one? 

Jacinda Ardern: Because really early on I learned that thicker skin might mean losing my empathy. I'd rather have empathy, because I think it's something as policy makers and decision makers makes us better at our job. And so if the price I pay is that sometimes the job hurts a little, so be it. 

Adam Grant: Sometimes the people who feel things the most deeply are the ones who care the most deeply. 

Jacinda Ardern: And don't we want those people in leadership? 

Adam Grant: I know I certainly do. Jacinda, thank you so much for joining us. 

Jacinda Ardern: Thank you.

Adam Grant: My biggest takeaway from Jacinda is that we should frame leadership differently to the next generation. We should stop positioning it as an opportunity to seize power for yourself, and start framing it as a responsibility to serve others. On that note, I loved her point that once you take the reins, the question of "can I do it?" is no longer relevant. The only question that matters is "how can I do it in a way that helps others?"

ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Aja Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick, and our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hai Lash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, Tansica Sunkamaneevongse, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hahnsdale Hsu and Allison Layton Brown.

Jacinda Ardern: It's a real pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 

Adam Grant: Well, we're gonna find out if that's true, won't we? 

Jacinda Ardern: Whether or not my name is Jacinda? I feel fairly certain on that. 

Adam Grant: Check, we've got that base covered. 

Jacinda Ardern: I'll be good.