How to make friends at work (w/ Master Fixers Kate Moennig and Leisha Hailey of the L Word) (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

Anne Morriss: Frances, some of our favorite words start with the letter L. Love, leadership, lesbians.

Frances Frei: The Minnesota Lynx.

Anne Morriss: That is the perfect gay tee up to today's episode.

Hello everyone. Welcome to Fixable, a podcast from TED. I'm your host, Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach. 

Frances Frei: And I'm your co-host, Frances Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor, and I'm Anne's wife. 

Anne Morriss: We believe that meaningful change happens fast, particularly with some can-do lesbian spirit, which is a superpower everyone can access.

We also talk about tools and strategies and inspiration for approaching work differently, which is the spirit of today's show. Today we're talking to the wonderful Leisha Hailey and Kate Moennig. For those of you out there familiar with The L Word, you may know them as the iconic characters and best friends on the show Alice and Shane.

Frances Frei: Alice and Shane.

Anne Morriss: Alice and Shane, it turns out, are also best friends in real life. Leisha and Kate met on the set of The L Word 20 years ago, they've been friends ever since, and we've invited them on the show today because they've continued to collaborate in really interesting ways long after the show's incredible run. They host an excellent podcast called Pants and they just wrote a book together called So Gay For You: Friendship, Found Family, and the Show That Started It All. The book is terrific, everyone should read it. There's so much insight in it about working with people you love and what it takes and what it really feels like to blaze a truly new trail in an industry that's often hesitant to try new things.

Frances Frei: It's a great reason to work with your friends, to be able to stand next to each other when you're slaying those kinds of dragons. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah, it can be a beautiful thing working with a best friend, but it can of course, also get messy, which is one of the things we're gonna get into with Leisha and Kate today.

Frances Frei: Oh, I look forward to it.

Anne Morriss: Leisha Hailey and Kate Moennig, welcome to Fixable. 

Leisha Hailey: Thank you for having us.

Kate Moennig: The smart podcast. 

Leisha Hailey: I know, we're excited. We, we were talking earlier on the telephone, the old telephone, and we were like, are we gonna be able to handle this?

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. The bar's gonna be very low.

Leisha Hailey: Oh, thank God. 

Kate Moennig: Okay, good. So it'll get onto our level. Yeah, yeah, that's where we can really shine. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. We are also shameless fans of yours. Our, uh, our producer told us to be fun and cool in this conversation, so I'm gonna blow it right away.

Leisha Hailey: Give us everything you got. Let's go. 

Kate Moennig: We're not cool, so don't worry about it.

Anne Morriss: I know I speak for queer women around the world, but for anyone who identifies as an outsider in saying that your willingness to share these big, complex, beautiful, courageous lives with us, not just on The L Word and the other art that you all have made, but also off camera, it made it easier for the rest of us to imagine living those lives as well, and it was, it was a really, it is a really profound gift. And I know from reading the book that, that it's not a free gift. It's never a free gift. And so we just wanna thank you for that before we really start this conversation. 

Kate Moennig: Wow. Thank you so much. 

Leisha Hailey: Thank you so much. 

Kate Moennig: That's such a beautiful, uh, endorsement. Really, it's wild to hear people's reactions to it because it's a very, uh, vulnerable experience to sort of hand your life over and say, here, what do you think? So thank you. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah, it's such a playful, like tender chronicle of this collaboration and um, this is a show about work, so we're gonna start there. Gallop did this research with this headline that was kinda shocking to corporate America, that if you have a best friend at work, you are much better at your job.

Kate Moennig: Mm. 

Leisha Hailey: Wow. 

Kate Moennig: I believe that.

Leisha Hailey: No kidding.

Anne Morriss: It really did blow people's minds, and I imagine it's so intuitive to both of you, but I wanted to start by asking what your friendship made possible for you in the workplace that you think wouldn't have been possible otherwise? Oh

Kate Moennig: wow. 

Leisha Hailey: Well, I would've felt very alone. It would've made me the only other gay cast member, so I would've felt like just another version of the outcast role I'd been playing my whole life. Back then, there was a lot of attention on that, that I was the only out one, and meanwhile, Kate, my best friend, was having her slow coming out and realization in her own time simultaneously. So it was like I would've felt kind of lost at sea without Kate. And probably vice versa, right, Kate? 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. It ups the ante and the bravery. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. 

Kate Moennig: Not only just in realizing who you are, but also in, in the space of creating. And within the work that we did, we were able to take risks and improvise and come up with ideas on the fly. And if they don't work, that's fine. We can do it in another take. But just to have that space that involves trusting someone, knowing that they're gonna pick up what you're putting down and vice versa, or they're not gonna shy away from it. And I think that maybe is what helped register with people who watch the show and still, you know, feel connected to it, was that level of creative synergy. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. What do you each love about working with the other? 

Kate Moennig: Certain people say don't work with friends. I know sometimes people say that, don't mix business and friendship.

Anne Morriss: There's a lot of anxiety about that.

Kate Moennig: And, and I do understand that it can sort of shift the dynamic and we can easily fall into things where we only discuss business things 'cause there's so much to tackle. So it takes a conscious effort to find that balance. But I disagree with that theory. I like working with my friend. We have a balance in terms of not being over overly cautious and not being overly impulsive. And we find that common ground, and I think that builds a really strong base for ideas and execution and realistically, how is this gonna look in a few years? And we're always on the same page where we think, oh, you know, maybe we should step back from this and focus on that. Again, that kind of synergy, it doesn't come into your life often. So when it does, appreciate it and use it. 

Leisha Hailey: And when we're not on the same page or say we have the same goal in mind, but we have a completely different approach to getting there, like I always start with yes.

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm.

Leisha Hailey: You know, and I have to get to a no. And Kate always starts with a no and has to get to a yes.

Kate Moennig: Mm-hmm.

Leisha Hailey: So we have to challenge each other and push each other to get through these like barriers we have in ourselves, you know?

We never went into this, uh, consciously, like even when we started our podcast, which I would say kind of launched this whole journey together in the world of business, it was just because we were like, we missed each other in the pandemic.

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm.

Leisha Hailey: We're like, let's just have the same conversations we have on the phone. Let's just record 'em. And, you know, we're here five years later and it has a life of its own, but it came out of just wanting to spend, you know, be together still and enjoy each other's company. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Anne Morriss: You know, we do all of our work together now.

Frances Frei: All of it.

Anne Morriss: We are so far on the side of the spectrum that it's a good idea to work with people you love that it's hard for us to even think about the downside, boundaries aren't our strength.

Frances Frei: Mm-hmm.

Kate Moennig: Right. But trust is so important to have that.

Anne Morriss: But people, but people approach us a lot and they're like, oh, I can't imagine working with my spouse, or, I can't imagine working with my best friend. 

Frances Frei: Mm-hmm. Well I tried with, we tried working with other people, it didn't work. 

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. We missed each other.

Frances Frei: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Anne Morriss: And what we know is possible with one plus one. But what advice would you give to people who are kind of contemplating this kind of a collaboration and they're nervous about the messiness of it, or what could happen to their friendship? What, what coaching would you give them? 

Leisha Hailey: I would say first and foremost, you have to have an open line of communication. You can't be scared to have difficult conversations, because those come up all the time. Or maybe you're, you can be disappointed in one another or somebody's slacking, or you have to be able to say, Hey, friend. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. 

Leisha Hailey: You gotta return that email, you know, or like not leave each other out to dry. You know what I'm saying, Kate? Like you, we have, we've had those where... 

Kate Moennig: Yeah, we, we have. But at the same time, just know that you're gonna make mistakes and the other person is gonna make mistakes, and we're human and we're the most imperfect creatures and it's gonna happen. But to Leisha's point, have that open line of communication. There has to be fundamentally trust, like you have to trust the people that you're, that you're spending this amount of brain power and time and money and investments and whatever into this, because if you don't trust them, you're gonna hate your job. 

Anne Morriss: To the conflict point or the friction point, or navigating through those tough moments, did you have to learn how to do that or were you showing up with a certain amount of skill, at least one of you, going into this? 

Leisha Hailey: I would say we had some practice runs just in our friendship, normally. Like we've had to sit each other down before and say, Hey, where'd you go?

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: Or like, I feel like you haven't, uh, shown up for me in these ways, or, you know, we've had... 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. 

Leisha Hailey: Some practice runs, but business is different because it's, it almost feels like you're in trouble if somebody says something, like I didn't do my homework.

Kate Moennig: But I think we learn a lot on the fly as well.

Leisha Hailey: Yeah, we do. 

Kate Moennig: Like, we're not experts in this. We're just, we go off of our instincts, we go off our chemistry, we go off the moments of inspiration we have, and we run with it. And are they all winners? Who knows? Like I learned something last week on the fly, and it was because we were getting overloaded with things and Leisha's like, I really need help in this one department. And I was like, okay, cool. I'll see if I can handle that. And it's an incessant learning experience and I don't believe anyone ever really masters it. 

Anne Morriss: For people listening, they're in a workplace, they're kind of sold on the power of this kind of deeper like friendship, love infuse kind of collaboration, and they're trying to figure out where to start, particularly as adults, like this idea of making friends as adults can be really intimidating. 

Kate Moennig: Mm-hmm. 

Anne Morriss: Do you have any advice for how to move forward? How do you make friends as an adult? You both seem really good at this. 

Kate Moennig: It happens few and far between for me, but the friendships that I, I have, they've, there's time behind it. How do you make new friends? I'd say for me at least work. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. It's kind of one of the reasons to do, to, to work with people. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. And I think it's important to like be with like-minded people at work. Like you want to, like who you're working with, as you said, with this poll, because it'll enhance everything. Like we just, and we just, Leisha and I just started working with two people that we sort of knew, but we're getting to know more and they're fabulous. And it's like, oh, I could see them being friends, 'cause they're fascinating and they're fun and they're like-minded, and. 

Leisha Hailey: Well, the reason we're all going into work together is because we had a bunch of meetings together.

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: And we all walked away every time going, oh, this could be really fun if we do this.

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: That's the reason to start this because it's gonna be hard and it's gonna be years of work, so I better be doing it with people that I enjoy.

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: Because otherwise, what's the point at this age? 

Anne Morriss: I mean, it's a really, really familiar experience to people listening to this conversation.

It seemed like there was something special about the early seasons of The L Word, uh, that made kind of high levels of creativity and risk-taking more possible. What do you think some of the top-down choices that, like what, what in our world we would describe as the leadership team, but the creators and producers and showrunners made, do you, in retrospect, you think that made that possible?

Kate Moennig: It certainly stems from how our showrunner, Ilene Chaiken, handled the structure of the show. She really gave us the reigns. She really liked film and so she got film directors back when television wasn't getting film directors. We were very fortunate that we had the filmmakers we had come on. And not only just the people who did movies, but all the directors, she gave them freedom to create in their own world. And then with us, she certainly gave us power with the people we were playing, and she was open to ideas and she wanted ideas, and she accepted those ideas. And if they were better than what she had in mind, she went with it. She just wanted the best possible story, and that certainly created a freedom and a collaboration to say, okay, let's take some risks. 

Leisha Hailey: Yeah, I think the secret sauce was Ilene knew that highlighting what was actually happening off screen would turn onscreen scenes into magic. So they watched these relationships blossoming. Like who was hanging out with who? Who decided to room together? We literally never stopped hanging out. That's the thing. So the writers and the producers would go out with us a lot, and they had all this insight into these real relationships, and then you would end up...

Anne Morriss: So out with you, like after?

Leisha Hailey: Like all of it. Yeah.

Kate Moennig: Yeah. After filming. 

Leisha Hailey: Out to dinner, out to clubs, out dancing, um. 

Kate Moennig: Parties at someone's apartment. 

Leisha Hailey: Parties, Ilene would have barbecues all the time on the weekends, we were in sports things together where someone joined a sailing club or a triathlon. 

Kate Moennig: Or there was a, there was a tennis club. 

Leisha Hailey: We were all working out with the same trainer. Like we consistently saw each other and they watched it and they started incorporating these partnerships like together. They would partner us together. They would put fight scenes in if they knew someone had, it was just, it was really like...

Frances Frei: Wow. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah, they played to the strengths of everyone. 

Leisha Hailey: And you don't find that a lot in television. And we've even worked together since on a different show where that can be a very threatening thing to someone because they wanna control the narrative and they wanna control, their ideas need to be reflected on screen. There, there's really no organic starting point. It's just, this is what I wrote and this is how I'm gonna cast it and this is how, so, okay, now say the lines. And it, it's not bad. It's just a different approach. And I think the lightning in the bottle that we all witnessed back then, either through watching it or performing it, was because of the realness.

Anne Morriss: And so the whole cast was living together in Vancouver, what you call gay camp. Is that the way to think about it?

Leisha Hailey: Yes, yes, yes. We all always, not all of us, but in different groups.

Kate Moennig: Not all of us, but there was, there were a few of us that always lived close by and we made it a point to only have a block or a block and a half radius between us. And then there were other seasons where we would room together depending on the circumstances. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. That's awesome. We, you know, we're in the middle of reading your book and we were ended up in this conversation about allyship. What was it like for you personally to have this, to have all of these straight humans, for lack of a better word, be so committed to telling this story with grace and nuance and excellence.

Leisha Hailey: Everyone took this job seriously because we knew it was the first of its kind. And I felt a personal like dedication to like getting it right, 'cause I'm like, this is, we gotta show my community, right? We gotta do this right. But all this straight actresses were like, we have to get this right.

Kate Moennig: It felt like this is how it should be.

Leisha Hailey: Yeah.

Kate Moennig: It, it, it's how it should be. It, it just brought together this feeling, and this sounds really corny because this word is overused a bit, but it really brought this feeling of family.

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm.

Kate Moennig: And I think anyone who maybe showed up and felt a little uneasy once they got up there realizing, oh, I have to do certain things. And I'm not saying there were, and if, and I can't think of anyone specific, but I know, I'm sure it happened once or twice within those six years, they didn't last long. Right? Because that was not tolerated by any.

Anne Morriss: It was just understood.

Kate Moennig: It was understood, and it wasn't just not tolerated by the people in charge. It was, it wouldn't have been tolerated by the cast, because everyone really, like the show meant the, making this show meant the world to all of us, it was our life. 

Leisha Hailey: We were very protective of it. 

Kate Moennig: Incredibly protective. 

Leisha Hailey: And you could always feel something was a little off, or. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. 

Leisha Hailey: It just wasn't meshing. 

Kate Moennig: It wasn't, yeah.

Anne Morriss: How did that protectiveness manifest? What did that look like?

Leisha Hailey: Like Kate said, if anybody didn't fit for certain reasons, you know, that weren't benefiting the, the message or mission of the show, I don't think those people lasted very long. And I think it just held a standard that because it was a, you know, a sexual show, it's the reason, like we never got, uh, like acknowledged for, you know, in the world of Emmys, right? Back then it was like, oh, if you had sex it was, you were just a different, so, but what we always kept a high bar, like a high expectation for anyone who came on to like rise up to doing their best work and just portraying our queer community like, the best way they could. It was also before box checking. It was way before any of that movement.

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: So it was like, you're here for a very important reason. Even though we're all having fun, know what you're, know what you're here to do. 

Anne Morriss: And the rules were embedded in the culture of the show at that point.

Kate Moennig: It was just an unspoken rule.

Anne Morriss: Right.

Kate Moennig: It was just, it was the energy you felt when you got up there.

Anne Morriss: Yep.

Kate Moennig: You just knew it. Like you have to do it, but guess what? So do I. So we're all in this together. So let's, yeah, we'll have fun, but let's take this like, this is important. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah, love it.

The Hollywood, what we would call Hollywood from far away and the studio system are not the heroes of the book. What do you think the industry's getting wrong right now? 

Leisha Hailey: Yeah. A couple of things come to mind right now. One, I think they're so used to feeding the gay community crumbs and just figuring we're happy with that. Here's a gay character here. Okay, you need a lesbian kiss? Let me throw one over here. We can tell. It doesn't satisfy us, it's not enough. More can be done. I think what they're getting wrong is basically ignoring this gigantic beautiful TV and movie watching community and culture that is hungry for content that represents them and where they see themselves reflected on screen. And it's such a loyal audience, and I think they take advantage of that by just throwing us breadcrumbs. And I think if anybody is smart, they will make something much like The L Word or something similar where we can see these lives with these fully fleshed out characters and where they're just full people.

Kate Moennig: Where they're protagonists in their own story. We haven't seen that since, and that is the problem with this business. Makes you think what's more important, like giving a community of voice and knowing that there's an audience for it or worrying about clicks on social media and what that looks like? And yet at times you can tell that they put on a veil saying, no, we really care. And I don't think you do because if you did, there wouldn't just be that one character and you'd have more than one gay show. Although, guess what? There are no gay shows right now. There's gay characters in shows. They're not showing up, and I think that's been the disappointment since we went off the air. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah, even revisiting season one, which has been so much fun. It is kinda shocking that this would, this would be a novelty now, 20 years later.

Kate Moennig: It's, yeah.

Anne Morriss: To put these stories up on the screen in this way.

Kate Moennig: Mm-hmm.

Anne Morriss: With these multidimensional lives, and queerness isn't a tragedy. It's just, you know, it's just part of this storyline. 

Leisha Hailey: And that's really proven, like, by like watching this younger generation after generation, because there's a couple behind us now, walking up to us in grocery stores going, I just, there were 16, 15, 19. "I just started watching The L Word." You know, 'cause like it's both beautiful and sad because they're watching a dated show, but it still means so much because they have nothing else to watch.

Anne Morriss: Even watching people around us 20 years ago, and even now when we're having fun and revisiting this, it's also, it's also queerness as a metaphor of this universal search for belonging. So I think it's a very surface kind of analysis to be like, oh, there's all these queer kids running around and they have nothing to watch! Right? When I think the, sure, like that, that's part of the story. But the other part of the story is that the human arc, which you both have lived and have written about beautifully, of like confronting your difference and then confronting the implications for connection and belonging. And then wrestling the demons to the ground with your own bullshit and then bringing your family along. Like that journey is, there's also something profoundly universal about that. I forget who said that everyone's coming out of some fucking closet, you know? And so like the power of these stories to kind of bring that to the surface in this literal way, I think has resonance way beyond the queer community.

Leisha Hailey: Thank you so much for saying that.

Kate Moennig: Thank you for saying that.

Leisha Hailey: I feel like you are probably the, not the first person, but you understand exactly what we wanted to write about.

Kate Moennig: Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: So thank you for seeing that in our book. 

Kate Moennig: The relatability that you were referring to is just being honest and being a human, and the mistakes again that we make and learning from those, and then also in retrospect, looking back and saying, oh, I forgive myself actually for doing those things at that time, but that's what I knew. And hopefully that'll register. 

Anne Morriss: And that's how you, that's how you survived, and that's how we're all surviving. 

Leisha Hailey: Exactly, yes. Or just growing up feeling like a monster and an outcast, like you said.

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm.

Leisha Hailey: That for me was like, I can still feel it sometimes today. It's, I think it's something I'll live with for the rest of my life. And really, why chosen family, and I know it's been appropriated so much by the straight world, but in our community it can mean life or death. To find your people really is, uh, kind of everything. And it, you don't always have to be from a broken home or a, it's like what happened to Kate and I, it's just, it's something that cherished this relationship and I will work at it, on it, for the rest of my life because it's that important.

Kate Moennig: We got a lot of work to do, Leisha. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah, we would come find you guys and broker some kind of reunion. Yeah, yeah.

Frances Frei: I can't help but think about the ties to leadership, so I'm gonna just bring it in a slightly different direction, but I wanna run some ideas by you and just to get your... 

Anne Morriss: Fun and cool was the note, Frances.

Kate Moennig: Fun and cool.

Leisha Hailey: You guys are nailing it. 

Frances Frei: I have one gear. Um, so first we think about leadership, is that leadership is the act of making other people better.

Kate Moennig: Mm. 

Frances Frei: First as a result of our presence, but in a way that lasts into our absence.

Leisha Hailey: Okay. Got it.

Frances Frei: Okay. All right. And so if we believe that, when I look at the work that you've done, you did it in one, like you led in one another's presence. But look at the, look at what has happened in your absence. And so to me, this show, I mean I couldn't help but hear all the, uh, parallels to a startup, that has like reverberations around the world and across time. And so to me it's a great act of leadership. So that's my first comment, is that that's what this feels like to me. And then I'll tell you the second layer that we have on after that definition, is that when you wanna bring out the best in someone, we know there's two tricks to do it. And if you can do 'em both simultaneously, you get there. And I feel like you do it with each other and you did it with everybody on set, but I wanna test it with you, which is that if I wanna bring out the best in someone else, I want them to experience my high standards. And you've, you were saying, I mean, you guys were, or I'll use my own language, but ruthlessly high standards. If you don't fit, you're out. Like it's, it's, I love it. Right? So it's, but you also have to simultaneously reveal deep devotion to the other person's success.

Leisha Hailey: Mm.

Frances Frei: And so we call it high standards and deep devotion.

Kate Moennig: Mm-hmm. 

Frances Frei: And we can say it easily, but it's actually quite difficult to do because usually when we set high standards, we shield people from our devotion.

Kate Moennig: Aha.

Frances Frei: Or when we're really showing our devotion, we insidiously lower the standards.

Kate Moennig: Mm-hmm.

Leisha Hailey: How weird. 

Frances Frei: The great thing is when you can do both of them simultaneously, that's when you can bring out the best in one another. And so I was just drawing my diagrams as you were talking about each other and talking about what was going on the set. So I'd love to just hear your reaction to those thoughts. 

Kate Moennig: Can I ask a question? Is this like a course you teach at Harvard? Did we just have a Harvard seminar? Because this is the closest.

Leisha Hailey: I'm signing up.

Kate Moennig: Honestly, this is the closest I'm ever gonna get to an Ivy Leaguer. 

Frances Frei: Oh, you just tell me it's your goal and it's not the closest you're gonna get.

Kate Moennig: Truly. Like, this is amazing. 

Anne Morriss: We'll hook you up, Kate. 

Frances Frei: No, but this is, so, this is what we teach.

Kate Moennig: Wow.

Anne Morriss: This is what we write about and, yeah.

Leisha Hailey: Well, I've always, I mean, my favorite time in life is when I see someone I love dearly succeed. I want nothing more than that person, that good hearted, hardworking friend of mine to win. And is that kind of what you're saying? Like people are usually threatened by that because they wanna stay?

Frances Frei: It is and it, and it will go even further. Let's say that you are, you're working with someone and you get so close to them, you insidiously lower the bar on them. That's what happens to most people.

Leisha Hailey: But I don't understand why.

Kate Moennig: Do you mean lowering the bar? 

Anne Morriss: To avoid hurting them.

Kate Moennig: Right.

Anne Morriss: So you lower your expectations. 

Kate Moennig: Lower expectations. You let things slide that you shouldn't slide because things are at such a good, at a groovy moment that you don't wanna disturb.

Leisha Hailey: Oh, so that goes along with, Hey, I need you to step up.

Frances Frei: Yes. Yeah. Uhhuh. Which is why I was noting, so one of the things, if I was gonna predict whether or not you two are gonna have a long-term relationship, yes.

Kate Moennig: Oh, good.

Frances Frei: Because it, because you, you set high standards and you reveal deep devotion naturally. I also think it's what you did on set. So it's, and so, which means you have the capacity to do it, which again, to me goes to leadership. So great signs of leadership is understanding that there's the presence and absence part of it. What I'm doing here is to set people who I might not see up for success, but then when I am interacting, I do it with high standards and deep devotion simultaneously. And I have to tell you, that's a challenge for most people. Most of us spend most of our time either high standards, low devotion or deep devotion, low standards, and we just toggle back and forth. 

Leisha Hailey: That's so interesting.

Kate Moennig: Wow. That is interesting. 

Leisha Hailey: So that is hard because let's say Kate and I were, we had a project together, and let's say Kate's not... I'm, by the way, this isn't true. I'm just, yeah. Just so I understand, not not reaching my expectation in that moment or for that week.

Anne Morriss: Purely hypothetically.

Leisha Hailey: Purely, this has never happened. No, I really been, no, I really am doing hypothetical. It could be easy for one to just give up or just go, Ugh, I can't, this is, either I have to go do this alone or this isn't an this, isn't this just.

Frances Frei: Or let it slide and not achieve as much as you would have otherwise. 

Leisha Hailey: Right. Or really want to. 

Anne Morriss: In the name of protecting the friendship. Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: Oh wow. 

Frances Frei: It's actually in the name of love. 

Kate Moennig: Or it would be the opposite where we just grind on each other so hard to get the job done that all the devotion has gone out the window.

Anne Morriss: That's exactly right.

Kate Moennig: And the humanity, because it's doing the to-do list. Did you do X, Y, and Z?

Anne Morriss: That's exactly right.

Kate Moennig: It's, it's work, it's balance. It's, it's a, I think it's a level of...

Leisha Hailey: We've been through both.

Kate Moennig: I mean, I think we've been through both and it's a level of awareness that, uh, I know for me, I'll realize after the fact and say, okay, um, I can't have this keep carrying on that way because it's not gonna serve either one of us or our relationship in any capacity, any good. So I'm going to pivot and that's my responsibility.

Leisha Hailey: Right.

Kate Moennig: And I think, and I trust that Leisha's gonna meet me halfway. 

Leisha Hailey: Yep. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah. 

Anne Morriss: You guys used the word love a couple times in just, just describing this. When we wrote about it, um, we named the chapter in this book Love and talked and, and made the case that doing both at the same time...

Frances Frei: High standards and deep devotion.

Anne Morriss: Is the highest form of love.. Because you're creating a space where this other human being can really evolve at their fastest pace. I mean, it's, it's the, it's the most profound gift we can give each other it. 

Leisha Hailey: That's, I love this. First of all, I would like a poster so I can stare at it every day.

Kate Moennig: Yeah, that's a good inspo poster. You could sell on Etsy, people would buy it. 

Leisha Hailey: But in the end, if you both win at what you're trying to achieve, my God, isn't that like the dream that you get to do it with your, your friend?

Kate Moennig: Nothing would personally make me happier than to see something that Leisha and I have, I mean, and this book is a beautiful example of that. We poured our heart and soul and worked so hard on this book, um, but even past the book to, to succeed with Leisha because I know how much devotion and, uh, time and effort and love has been poured into whatever project it is we're working with, to see that shine and win. That is, that alone is success. 

Anne Morriss: Oh yeah. And you, you guys, we, it's so fun to see it kinda up close in this conversation, but you also have revealed it in all of this beautiful work you've done together and put out into the world. 

Kate Moennig: Thank you. 

Leisha Hailey: Ah, thank you. Well, we're not done. 

Kate Moennig: No, we're not done.

Anne Morriss: No, I know. 

Kate Moennig: This is just the catalyst to everything. 

Anne Morriss: You're getting started. Give us the top line on the lesson you learned from being on the show, do you think in retrospect? 

Leisha Hailey: Hmm, I learned that the world is a lot kinder than I thought it was. I think we were embraced in a way I'd never thought we would be. I thought I was so used to gay people being hiding away in dark corners and small bars and we would only come out once a year and like on Gay Pride day, and then we'd all go hide again.

And I just expected nobody to care or like it or spit on it or what. And when it became a, the su the success that it became and people from all walks of life, straight, gay, what it doesn't matter where, what country you were in or what, like how much they loved it and how universal like our stories really are, you know? Because like you said, there are so many ways that people hide or reasons people hide away that, um, aren't necessarily about being gay. But it's just, it's a universal thing to feel that way. And I think like the acceptance kind of blew my mind. 

Anne Morriss: That's beautiful. Yeah. And that courage is really infectious, even in this fictional form.

Leisha Hailey: Mm-hmm.

Anne Morriss: Is, is part of the power of it. Kate, what about you? How did Shane change you? 

Kate Moennig: Well, Shane gave obviously a big permission slip to be as bold as possible, and I'm far more shy than she was, but I was given this permission slip to say, oh, I can go for it. And that obviously opened up my world in a way that I didn't expect. But at the same time, Shane came with a hindrance, which was, everyone thought I was Shane. So there was this little problem where me myself sort of landed somewhere in the middle, right? And so it was, I, I'd say at the time, and this is a not a bad problem to have, it was challenging only because no matter what I said or did, that perception wasn't wavering. 

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. So you were still Shane. We were all attached. 

Kate Moennig: Across the board.

Frances Frei: That's hilarious to think about.

Kate Moennig: Yeah, like the people who knew me knew me, and they'd always laugh and be like, they'd be like, my God. And I'm like, no. 

Leisha Hailey: Well, you would just watch it happen to like a girl with all the hopes and dreams in her eyes, and you just slowly watch them like figure out who Kate really is and like wants to stay home and watch 90210 on the couch. 

Kate Moennig: Yeah, and I just wanna be myself. And then there's like this disappointment and it's like I can't live up to that expectation. I just can't, 'cause that's, she's the opposite of who I am. Right? Champagne problems, I understand. 

Anne Morriss: But that can, that could break a girl's heart though. 

Kate Moennig: But I like how that character was written to break boundaries and maybe that's why she got the attention she did because at that time there weren't female roles like that. And she was, she and I said it in the book, she was a sort of conceived of as this male character but in, in female form. And that was sort of unheard of in 2002 when we shot the pilot. And I'm glad that the character inspired others to find themselves, whether it was confidence or, I hate to say fashion because there were some extreme mishaps that happened throughout the years, but I know that at the time it was the pinnacle. But I'm glad it helped others. 

Anne Morriss: It holds up. We just watched the show up. They weren't as dramatic as, as each of you recalled. 

Kate Moennig: But I'm glad, like it gave, I'm glad that character gave others gumption to be themselves. Because at the same time she was giving me the gumption to be myself. Right? Um, but I was just doing it privately. And that's such a gift because television, it doesn't, it, it's such a powerful medium and not every show is a hit, but this show landed and, and for good reason. 

Anne Morriss: Can we tell you our two favorite laugh out loud moments in the book?

Kate Moennig: Please. Yeah. 

Leisha Hailey: Yeah. 

Kate Moennig: Let's hear it. 

Anne Morriss: Okay, so you were both invited to the Biden White House for Lesbian Visibility Week, and while you were there, Leisha, after crushing your speech, you ran into then Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, and you asked if you could make a funny video together. She just said no. 

Kate Moennig: Oh God. Oh God. Oh, , she straight up. 

Leisha Hailey: That, no, I think it's burned in my, my brain for the...

Kate Moennig: Because nothing is worse than a no, a very stern no, with a smile. Like there was no, yeah. 

Anne Morriss: It was a complete sentence, that No, for sure. Yeah.

Leisha Hailey: Yeah.

Anne Morriss: And then the second was, was Mia who played Jenny on the show declaring she wanted to be a top?

Kate Moennig: Yes.

Anne Morriss: And that lasting like seven minutes, maybe. 

Kate Moennig: It's true. Mia, it was, I think that was the last season that those two characters were together, right? So I believe she was maybe tired of being the damsel in distress and we had such a comfortable relationship. She's like, let's try something new. 

Leisha Hailey: It's like, okay, great. She can get very excited about, she's always like, "I wanna be a top!" You know? 

Kate Moennig: " Can I do it in this scene?" I'm like, sure, go right for it. She was so like, she came in with, yeah, she was, she had such conviction about it. She just wanted to.

Anne Morriss: Which lasted not very long. 

Kate Moennig: It didn't even last past, like past blocking rehearsal, so no one got to see it.

Anne Morriss: Oh, so good. I feel like I need to give my wife the last word. Frances? 

Frances Frei: Our greatest success measure is that people have swagger as a result of interacting with us. Like that's the, that's what we're trying to leave in our wake, and I have learned a lot from watching you on screen and now talking with each other about how to unleash swagger in other people.

So I wanna say thank you for that. 

Anne Morriss: Thank you guys for doing this. 

Leisha Hailey: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure. 

Kate Moennig: Anne, Frances, pleasure. Thank you so much.

Anne Morriss: First of all, that was super fun. That was like bucket list fun for me. I don't wanna speak for you. 

Frances Frei: Oh, definitely, definitely. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. I was thinking, reading the book and then hearing their conversation a lot about what these creative industries can teach the rest of us about how do you design workplaces where creativity is a reliable output? And I think there, the experience is so interesting because it, you know, they, and they talk about this in detail, there were some sets, there were some seasons of some sets where that alchemy really worked and was powerful. And then others where, where it was less potent. I feel like there's not a lot of cross pollination between these creative industries, uh, and and everyone else. I think there's a lot for the rest of us to learn from people who wake up every day and have to literally create. 

Frances Frei: You know, I feel like we, we take a lot of learnings from like the icon. From Pixar, like the world learns from Pixar's creative engine.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. I think it's broken through for sure.

Frances Frei: Yeah. Um, and that, but this, like, what you only get to see by reading the book and, and hearing them, what, like, I would like to see the show about behind the scenes what happened, but each thing they spoke about, like the show runner not giving them a script to be adhered to. 

Anne Morriss: Yeah. 

Frances Frei: But giving them the script with then loose guidance and then they would be open to ideas. I mean, we hear this in organizations every day. I have never met a company that didn't say we want the best ideas to come from anywhere.

Anne Morriss: Right.

Frances Frei: And yet the organizational structure we put on top of it makes that less and less likely to happen. And here the showrunner figured out how to do it. And then you got some operational gems for how they did it. 

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. 

Frances Frei: They, the producers would go and spend time with them. 

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. 

Frances Frei: To observe where the alchemy was. 

Anne Morriss: Right. 

Frances Frei: And then build on that, right? Because you could try to create alchemy. Or you could observe it and try to foster it.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. That's really interesting. Right. 

Frances Frei: So a fellow professor at the Harvard Business School, Youngme Moon, we're very good friends, and we were given an opportunity to work together and we were able to accomplish unbelievable things and that to me is what I learned from them. Like the producers looking for alchemy and then. 'Cause what? So much easier. There's so much more alchemy if you start with the alchemy than if you try to foster alchemy among strangers. 

Anne Morriss: Which is what I mean, that's what, that's what all the, that's what all the team building effort is all about. But it is a mindset shift to say, okay, where are, where is this chemistry happening inside the company? And can we build from there? 

Frances Frei: So here's the thing I have always thought, and I had the recruiting job at, at the Harvard Business School for a while where I wanted to recruit faculty. And my idea always was to say to people, we wanna recruit you. And they're like, no. And I said, what if we would also hire two other people that you wanna work with that are at other schools? So we'll hire all three of you. Every one of them was like, we'd do it in a second. I could never get the team back at home to do it. But I think that would be, because that would be the way to do it if you could bring your posse here. 

Anne Morriss: Yes. Yes. 

Frances Frei: That would be the way to do it. And, and we not only do we not do it, we like really shy away from it.

Anne Morriss: Right. 

Frances Frei: I'm super moved by that. I also loved how much they cared about standards. 

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. 

Frances Frei: And expectations of one another. Like there was a real sense of excellence, like their answer to when you asked, all of the allies showed up. How did that feel? And they were like, it felt like it should have been that way.

Anne Morriss: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Frances Frei: Like, like it felt like that's what excellence looks like. I really, really appreciated that. 

Anne Morriss: Well, I think that's powerful too, is I think, um, the, the institutional hesitation that you, you talked about that Oh, the, the friendship, you know, um, reduces the likelihood or that like we have these, we have these implicit assumptions, when, I mean, all the way back to this Gallup data, when if you, if you look at the evidence, it's the opposite. And certainly it was for Leisha and Kate, their, their friendship and commitment to each other as people facilitated keeping that bar high and rising in the work that they did together.

Frances Frei: When I, I know that most people shy away from working with people that are close to them, and I'm, I'm not in advocacy mode. I am so glad that they didn't shy away from working with each other because there's been magic on the other side of it, and it's only gonna continue to be magic. 

Anne Morriss: I'm in advocacy mode. I wanna say work with your friends and loved ones. 

Frances Frei: Yeah, you're gonna be even more unapologetic. 

Anne Morriss: Everyone should do this. The things that you can accomplish together when there's that kind of an interpersonal commitment that is foundational to the relationship is orders of magnitude bigger than when that foundation isn't there.

Frances Frei: Just one more example of how you're more courageous than I am. 

Anne Morriss: Well, that's a perfect note to end on, Frances.

Frances Frei: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great episodes like this one, so please keep reaching out directly. If you wanna figure out any questions about your workplace problem together, send us a message. 

Anne Morriss: Email, call or text us at fixable@ted.com or 234-FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

Fixable is a podcast brought to you by TED and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

Frances Frei: And me, Frances Frei.

Anne Morriss: This episode was produced by Rahima Nasa. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Daniella Balarezo and Roxanne Hai Lash. 

Frances Frei: Our show is mixed by Louis at Story Yard. 

Anne Morriss: If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast and tell a friend to check us out.