How kindness went viral with Catherine Barrett (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Anderson:
Hello, welcome to the TED Interview. I'm Chris Anderson. This series of the TED Interview is devoted to exploring infectious generosity in all of its aspects. I've come to believe that we're in an existential battle right now in our culture between those spreading anger, mistrust, and threat and those seeking to share a more uplifting view of humans and what we're capable of.

Doing the latter is definitely harder because our human cognitive biases draw us more naturally to danger, but kindness can also spread online. Those who do that and show that are, in my view, modern day heroes. And, today on the show we have one of the greatest of those heroes. Her name is Catherine Barrett. 


She has devoted much of her life to campaigning against ageism and the terrible way we tend to treat the elderly in our societies. But, for a couple of years in her life, during the pandemic, she had to put all that on hold for something else. She's an amazing woman and this is an extraordinary story. 


Okay, so I am here with Catherine Barrett, someone who I regard, actually, as an unsung global hero. Catherine, uh, welcome to the TED interview. 


[00:02:20] Catherine Barrett:
Chris, it's wonderful to be here with you.
[00:02:22] Chris Anderson:
So, I would love to hear your story kind of from the beginning, just how on earth you got to where you got to by March, 2020. 
What was the lead up to that? 


[00:02:33] Catherine Barrett:
I think the lead up, if I actually go way back, comes from my family. I come from a very big family, so a family of 14 children, and 14 children in 16 years. 


[00:02:45] Chris Anderson:
No kidding. What number were you in that 14?
[00:02:48] Catherine Barrett:
I was number five. So, there wasn't a lot of individualism. It was all about the collective, and we were there to look after each other and a really strong sense of community connection from that. 


And, then I think where The Kindness Pandemic started was the 14th of March, 2020. And, it was the start of Covid, this virus that was really frightening a lot of us. And, it was a Saturday night at seven o'clock I was going out to the movies with friends. Everything had been canceled and I was at home and I was really quite frightened. 


And, so I got on social media and scrolling through and just seeing stories after stories of people's fear and aggression, and there were fights in supermarkets over toilet rolls and people are really scared. And, the other thing I saw were cries on social media for people saying, please, can we just look out for each other? 


Can we have each other's backs because we're not gonna get through this if we don't. And, I thought, well look, actually, I bet there's more acts of kindness happening. I bet more people are being nice to each other than these, you know, the meanness and the fear and the aggression. And, I think, you know, that beautiful saying where attention goes, energy flows. 


And, I thought if we could get people to focus on kindness, maybe it might spread and even if it doesn't spread, it will help me 'cause I'm feeling really anxious and I'm at home and I can't work and I can't go out, and this is something I can do with my time to soothe my own anxiety. So, I set up a Facebook group and I called it The Kindness Pandemic, and I invited a hundred of my friends to join. 


That was at 7:30 PM. And, I went to bed and I got up the next day and there were a thousand people in the group, and I thought, then this is a thing. There's something here. This is really resonating. And, within a couple of days it became the fastest growing Facebook group in the world. It grew at a rate of 50,000 new members a day, and it was, actually, Facebook was actually freezing, like the whole thing was just locking and agree to almost 580,000 people in two weeks. 


[00:04:55] Chris Anderson:
I mean, first of all, that, that's such a visionary and insightful name you gave to the group. I mean, right back then, right when everyone was scared, there's a pandemic raging. I mean, what gave you the confidence to think that kindness could even be a pandemic? It was one thing to have, let's have a group of kindness to escape from the pandemic. You called this thing The Kindness Pandemic.
[00:05:18] Catherine Barrett:
I think reading your book, Chris, which I am absolutely loving, you know, one of the elements you talk about, Infectious Generosity, is courage. And, I have a lot of projects and campaigns that don't go anywhere, but I have a go. You know, I think it, it struck me that everybody was talking about pandemic, pandemic, pandemic, and we were also focused on the virus and what it meant and what it looked like. 


And, you know, what if you walked past someone and they touched you or, and it just struck me that we could make kindness a pandemic. And, I think being an idealist and having courage were the two things that made that happen. 


[00:05:56] Chris Anderson:
Well, that's such a beautiful insight. Yeah. I did take courage. Tell, tell me about some of the first posts. 


I mean, it, the, the story I heard was that there was a, a very early post, perhaps the first post was of this box of tissues. Tell me about that. 


[00:06:09] Catherine Barrett:
Yeah, that was one of the, the first posts, and it was one of my neighbors who put a box of tissues out on a table and just, you know, she, she'd bought a packet of tissues and there was so many little packs in them. 


She put them out on a table and said, “Help yourself, please have one.” That was, I think one of the first posts, and then one of the next ones I think was, I kickstarted a campaign called Supermarket Kindness. And, I think particularly in Australia, one of the things that happened was as we were going into lockdown, people really panicked, uh, particularly in supermarkets and supermarket workers were being scratched and abused, and one of my colleagues went into a supermarket and the, the person at the checkout had scratches up their arm and she said, “What happened?” And, she'd actually been scratched by a customer that she'd tried to stop taking too many toilet rolls.

[00:06:59] Chris Anderson:
Oh my goodness.

[00:07:00] Catherine Barrett:
So, what we decided to do was to try and turn that around. 


So, we had a campaign called Supermarket Kindness, where we asked people to go into their supermarkets and, and give positive messages to the supermarket workers. And, it was the most beautiful, simple acts of kindness. And, I think what somebody did was they went into their supermarket, bought a block of chocolate, they paid for it, and then they handed it to the cashier and said, “This is for you and the other staff for your tea room. Thank you for being here for us.” And, they had the kind of things that went viral. Because people just went, I could do that. It's so simple. You know, $2 block of chocolate. And, um, you know, I did a couple of acts of supermarket kindness myself, and like the cashier was in tears and the manager was in tears and I was in tears. Beautiful stuff. 


[00:07:48] Chris Anderson:
And, part of it is not just the thing itself, but then how you actually capture it and share it. I mean, just to go back to that box of tissues, it's not like your neighbor posted that on your Facebook group as I understand it, but I think you, you posted it, you saw it, you took a picture of it and posted it. 


So, first of all, I, I mean, I'm curious why, why that act moved you and may have moved others 'cause I mean, it's only a box of of tissues. What got you about that and why do you think that also helped inspire others? 


[00:08:18] Catherine Barrett:
I think the absolute simplicity of it. You know, I think in your book you talk about it doesn't take a lot of money to be kind. 
And, sometimes even a hello is the, is an absolute act of kindness. But, I think there is something here around emotion and nurturing each other in such a simple way. And, then by sharing it a kind of a counter if you like, to this whole movement on quiet kindness, that kindness is not really kindness. If you tell other people about it, will we say, “Please tell other people about it. Please share it on social media,” ‘cause it does two things. Number one, it builds hope that people hear these stories and it gives them hope that you're there for me, that you've got my back, that it's going to be all right, that the world feels like it's gone bad, but it's gonna be all right. 
That's the first thing. And, the second thing it does is it encourages replications.

[00:09:04] Chris Anderson:
Yes.

[00:09:04] Catherine Barrett:
That's the infectious aspect of it, that people go, I could do that. 


[00:09:08] Chris Anderson:
So, so I love this loud kindness. It's so interesting, you know, that it, it is, it's what we were all brought up that, that you're supposed to keep your light under a bush or that you are supposed to, you know, be modest about what you do and invisible. 


And, I, and I think in the, in, in the preconnected world, there's, there's an obvious logic to that. If you are quiet about it, it's further proof that you are really acting outta generosity and you're not boasting. But, we're in a connected world now, and we're in a sort of mortal battle for what the world thinks about human beings. 


And, if we suppress acts of kindness, what we're left with is acts of nastiness. And, so finding the right way to do loud kindness is, is great. And, I'm sure you would agree that there is a way, like there's probably an obnoxious way to do loud kindness, but there's also a, a very, very beautiful way to do loud kindness. 

I mean, talk about a couple other examples of that, of just people who've, who've found a way to share a story in a way where you don't think, well, that's a boastfull person. You think, wow, I'm just moved. 


[00:10:12] Catherine Barrett:
Yeah. I think one of the ones that happened early on was a woman who was a new mom and her grandmother had died and they had had a very strong emotional attachment and she went to the aged care home that her grandmother was in to pick up her grandmother's belongings. 


And, the staff presented her with a package, which was a cardigan that her grandmother had been knitting for her new baby, and her grandmother didn't finish the cardigan. And, so the staff in the aged care home took turns in finishing the knitting of that cardigan because they knew how important it was to her grandma and they presented that to her granddaughter and she posted about it in Kindness Pandemic.

And, the outpouring of love and kindness for her was absolutely amazing and I think so much so, it really touched a chord with the team and we sent a box of cakes up to the aged care home to the staff and said, you know, thank you for, you know, this act of kindness, which has really resonated with so many people. 


[00:11:14] Chris Anderson:
Help me unpack this because a lot of what I'm trying to understand, you know, if we're to win this battle and to make kindness more viral than nastiness. Let's figure out, you know, why did this story touch people so deeply? 


[00:11:30] Catherine Barrett:
I think it was the fact that it, that aged care service providers here don't have such a good reputation, undeservedly, in many cases. 


So, it was the aged care workers not only caring for the grandmother because they knew this was something she wanted, but caring for her granddaughter and the newborn baby as well. And, there were so many people that took a very small role in that really, really simple action. I think that that was what touched a chord. 


[00:11:58] Chris Anderson:
It's lot, lots of people doing a small thing together to connect, you know, with love, an older person to a younger person. There are just so many rich elements to that. If you are trying to create a playbook outta this, how could someone else share kindness or enact kindness in a way that will spread? 


[00:12:20] Catherine Barrett:
I think first-person narrative is an absolute powerful tool for capturing people's hearts. And, what was really interesting is it doesn't matter, you know, how badly worded a story might be or how wonky a photograph might be, people love first-person narrative because it feels real.

[00:12:48] Chris Anderson:
Absolutely. Do you think there's a, a line that's crossed by some people where a, a little bit too much in your face. You know? I'm in here to be kind to you and, uh, you better respond and don't tell anyone that I'm doing it for the views. Uh, have, have you seen that happen and do you worry about that at all?

[00:12:55] Catherine Barrett:
Yes. Yes.
You talked about an Australian incident in your book and there was another incident in Australia where someone paid for someone's groceries at the checkout and filmed them and it was, you know, an Afghani refugee who, who didn't want his privacy shared. So, I think it's all about intent.

You know, sometimes you can deliver an act of kindness to someone and it doesn't go damn well, but if you've got good intent, then that can sit true in your heart. And, it's more likely a work if you've got good intent I think because you're, you're, you're looking for cues. You're thinking about is this going to be well received? Is this something they want? 


[00:13:29] Chris Anderson:
I guess the start point has to be respect for the person you're helping. If that isn't there, none of the rest of it counts. Yeah.

[00:13:36] Catherine Barrett:
I think, um, you know, some of the, the images that originally went viral and then people started to go, you know, I don't think this is motivated by good intent. 
They've just disappeared.

But, what has really remained steadfastly interesting, engaging is the stories that really come from the heart. I noticed, uh, this sense of community was around a mom again, whose partner was away. She had three children and they were all sick, and she was at home sick and the kids were sick. 


And, then she noticed that the kids had head lice. And you know, sometimes they can be embarrassing or shame with that. She had to ask her neighbor to go to the chemist and get some shampoo for the kids for the head lice. She was incredibly embarrassed and she shared a photograph, um, of the neighbor sent her a text and said, you know, I've left the shampoo and some goodies out the front. 


And, she, um, shared a photograph of this whole hamper and it was the headline shampoo and it was a bottle of wine for her and some casserole and some toys for the kids. And, it was this beautiful post. I've got goosebumps thinking about it now. So, that was the first act of kindness and then this beautiful thing that happened where there was clearly a tone in this message of the woman just going, I don't feel like I can do this. 

I'm really struggling. And, people just came in like about 25,000 comments in, like, two days and people saying things like, “Honey, you're a good mom. You're okay. You've got this. We're here for you and you are gonna be okay.” And, it was really beautiful to watch how this online community lifted her up and helped her through. 


And, that, I think, warmed everybody's hearts.
[00:15:21] Chris Anderson:
I mean, I'm tempted to say, what a time to be alive. You know, there've been desperate, struggling people throughout history. There's almost never been a time when 25,000 strangers could talk to you directly and give you strength if it goes the other way around and their critical comments, someone can feel savaged to the point of near suicide.

We're so deeply connected to each other. I mean, that's, that's, that's really extraordinary. And, it reminds me that just the scale of what you are dealing with here must have presented you with fresh challenges every day. I mean, how on earth do you manage a group of that size? 


Just give us a sense of what it actually took. 


[00:16:03] Catherine Barrett:
It grew so fast that called on a group of my friends, 12 mates, and said, can you help me with this? Can you please come on as a volunteer admin team, which they did, which was amazing. And, that's what we did for weeks and weeks and years. I think it was about 10,000 posts a day, and so it would just jam. 


It would just, actually, literally stop.

[00:16:26] Chris Anderson:
10,000 a day.

[00:16:28] Catherine Barrett:
Yes, it was huge. Absolutely huge. And, and actually to their credit, Facebook actually made contact with us and said, “Can we give you a hand,” which was really lovely.

[00:16:28] Chris Anderson:
Wow.

[00:16:39] Catherine Barrett:
I think, I think at, at that point we weren't vetting the posts and it, kind of, really quickly moved to what we'd call memes and puppies, so pictures of puppies and memes and they were beautiful, but they don't change the world.

And, I think that we are interested, as you are Chris, in building bridges. You know, we talk about intersectional kindness, which is our version of your building bridges. And, that's what we encouraged people to do. 


And, we said that, you know, we don't want you to post a meme or a puppy or even a story that somebody else has done. We want you to share an act of kindness that you've done or someone has done to you. And, because we wanted to really focus people in on creating change in the world. 


[00:17:22] Chris Anderson:
See, that strikes me as a very strong move and, and a move most people wouldn't have had the confidence to make. Most people would be going, look at all this traffic we're getting, woo-hoo! How lovely is this? And, it could easily change the nature of it. The fact that you were willing to say, this is beautiful, but a little bit lightweight. 


Um, let's, let's go to the actual human stuff. Is that wisdom that you would share with others if, if you are trying to moderate, like, one of these platforms that has taken off? You, actually, have to be pretty clear in the rules that you set for the group for it to thrive. That, actually, the best creativity, the best warmth, the best success happens if there are pretty clear rules that everyone understands. 


[00:18:06] Catherine Barrett:
Yes, look, I think that's incredibly important and, particularly, because after two weeks and it was growing so fast and we thought this is not only something that resonates, but something people need. That was when we made the decision to go local. So, to give people a template and a license, if you like, to set up their own local version of Kindness Pandemic, and they were distributing food and health information. 


[00:18:31] Chris Anderson:
When I'm feeling kinship with you on another level, because I think this, this decision you made, it feels a bit like the decision we made with TED, TEDx. You know, just to say we can't do TED in other places in the world. Lots of other people want TED there, so I know, let's, let's let them do it and, you know, won't that blow up the brand or the risks with it? 


You know, we, we ended up taking the decision to do it and it ended up working out. Despite a few problems early on, it worked out spectacularly well. It feels like you went through a similar, sort of, thought process of, you must have felt, gosh, if we allow all these other groups, who knows what they'll do with it? 


Maybe it'll be all puppies again. Maybe it'll start to get cynical or maybe someone will try and make a ton of money out of it. How did, how did you get the confidence to actually make the decision? 


[00:19:18] Catherine Barrett:
Well, I think you worded it really beautifully in your book when you said, we weren't sure, but we did it anyway.
I love that because you know, we weren't sure. But, we knew that it was worth giving it a try because people weren't able to eat. They weren't able to access food. And, so we thought the potential benefits outweighed the potential risks. And, what we've done is on our website, we've set up a webpage where we've given them guidelines and you know, there is a risk there because we don't know that, that people won't take the name and, and do things with it that, that aren’t really what the intention was there for.

But, you know, it was a really desperate time. And, this thought of people not being able to eat or access health information, the, the idea of a local group where people can say that, you know, there's a food distribution center here or there, or there's a doctor open here or there, but that was critically important. 


[00:20:17] Chris Anderson:
It's felt to me like a, a principle that I feel like may be true is that the more you trust people to own something, the more you'll be amazed at what they actually do with it. The people who feel like they own something are motivated to work so much harder on it. And, surprise, surprise, usually it turns out that they really want to honor the spirit of what you gave them. 


[00:20:42] Catherine Barrett:
Yes, I think it draws mostly good people in and, you know, I see this with my day job in particular, that it's about sharing power, if you like, or sharing knowledge, I think as, as, as you say. But, it's, it's like there's such a revolution to be had. There's so much good that needs to happen in the world. And, if I go in there and go, well, it's going to be all about me, then, you know, the, the impact is gonna be really rather small.

But, if I go in and say, how do I facilitate others who are interested? How do I give them information and knowledge? How do I mentor and support them and profile 'em and amplify them? And then we've gotta revolution, I think.
[00:21:37] Chris Anderson:
I mean the rush to 10,000 posts a day. I'm trying to picture what it felt like back then. Did you and your colleagues, I mean, you were all volunteering. I mean, did you, did you find time to just look at each other or say, you know what? You know, if you looked at the total number of newspapers, let's say published, uh, around the world, the main newspapers, maybe, in a given day, there's, there's about 10,000 stories. I'm gonna make that up as a stat, which may be out by two or three x, but it's about right, let's say 10,000 stories. The percentage of those that are about kindness is probably, 2%, you know, specifically, and yet here you are with this whole completely under-reported aspect of human nature that is as interesting. 


Each of those posts, arguably, is as interesting a story as anything you might read in the newspaper and definitely more affirming. And, how crazy is that, that little old you and your team of 12 were able to have this astonishing effect and uncover an amount of stories that, kind of, are on the scale of what the world's media collectively could do, but just in a different direction. I, that’s just crazy.

[00:22:57] Catherine Barrett:
You know, it's really interesting, Chris. One of the things, when I talk about Kindness Pandemic is I think so many people I think want to live in a better world and think that someone else is going to do it for them. And, I think one of the things that I know about myself as a 63-year-old woman, there's something that happens. 


I think, as we age, that we can get a better sense of ourselves and go, well, you know what? I might fall on my face, but I'm gonna have a go. Uh, and I think so many people think that someone else is going to do it, that they don't have the power to leave, they don't have the initiative or the creativity. 


And, I think what we did that, that I want other people to do is to have a go, to, to just get in there and have a go. And, you are not always gonna get it right, but have a go.

[00:23:44] Chris Anderson:
Well, this is so amazing 'cause we are taught to think of our lives as, you know, you work for x years and then at, at about your age, Catherine, we retire. 


Retire, you know, we advance and, and that means kind of withdrawing from the world and, I don't know, knitting and looking after our kids and grandkids and playing golf or traveling or whatever. You have shown that there is, there are so many other options open that in this connected world, any human who wants to, who wants to be a bit brave and put something out there just might, just might spark something and create, you know, this sort of tidal wave of impact. 


I, I just find that so, so thrilling that that is even possible.
[00:24:36] Catherine Barrett:
Yeah, look, and I think even if people don't create a, a tidal wave, if they create a tiny ripple…

[00:24:41] Chris Anderson:
There you go.

[00:24:42] Catherine Barrett:
…then they've done something. And, if we think of the billions of people in the world and everyone creates a tiny ripple, so it's like my encouragement is for people to get off their backsides and have a go. 


[00:24:52] Chris Anderson:
Oh, I, I, I love that. Is the group still going today and what does it look like today? 


[00:24:59] Catherine Barrett:
Uh, so, I think what has happened over the last year is that people have started to disengage with social media. I think people are feeling really burnt out, and there's also this sense that the urgency and the fear has gone. 


And, so people are probably not motivated by the same reasons, but it is still there. And, what we are trying to do now is bring this focus on act of kindness to older people.
[00:25:23] Chris Anderson:
Mm.
[00:25:24] Catherine Barrett:
I love older people and I know that we've got a really significant issue with ageism across the, the globe, and I see the consequences of that and, so in the work that we do, we're really looking at how do we bridge that gap between the knowledge of the need for respect and getting critical mass of people on board. And, so we use art and narrative-based approaches. All of it is trying to create ways of engaging the community in becoming champions of this work. 


And, so now we've really moved across to kindness. We've always talked about respect before, but now we're saying, well, what if we focus on acts of kindness? 


[00:26:06] Chris Anderson:
Talk about what you've learned in this, about how we should think about people. I mean, a lot of people want to divide the world into good people and bad people. 
You know, the, there's the famous Solzhenitsyn quote where he said, I don't believe that the lines between good and evil are between different classes or different nations, that the line between good and evil runs through every human heart. And, I've, I've always been really in inspired by that, and to me, if that's possibly, profoundly true, I, I'm curious what your experience is like. How, how, how do you, how do you think about it?

[00:26:45] Catherine Barrett:
I think about, you know, if we're on social media, you could be forgiven for thinking that, that everybody is motivated by violence and greed and hatred. I think they are the minority of people, you know, maybe 5%, pushing 10%, but we don't focus on those stories of people who are motivated by good people, who are doing good. It just doesn't make the news. And, I think the other stuff scares us. So, it gets focused on and I think we need to recalibrate that. Um, and so that's the work that I'm interested in doing. Even if it's a tricky, difficult issue, you know, what is it about that that's, that's going well? What is it that appreciative inquiry, if you like, what's working? 


[00:27:29] Chris Anderson:
Mm-Hmm. So, there's someone out there listening and they have a different set of fears than you had at the time of the pandemic. Maybe they're worried about what's going on between Israel and Palestine, or they're worried about what's going on in politics. You know, here in the US there's a huge election coming up. The two different political sides won't even talk to each other. They're terrified of each other. They loathe each other.

Is there any hope that there's another Catherine Barrett out there who can find a way of, no, no, let's, let's try something different. Let's look at it this way. Is there, is there any way that you can picture, someone might find a way to bridge or to change the framing of what we're facing right now? 


[00:28:08] Catherine Barrett:
Look, I think there are billions of people out there with that capability, and I think what they're doing most probably is looking to our political leaders for leadership. 


They're looking for inspiration. They're looking for authenticity, integrity, compassion, and innovative leadership. And, they're not getting it, and they're feeling disillusioned. And I think what I want people to realize is the leadership starts with us. We are the leaders. And, you know, if people can go out there and, and create a, a tidal wave, but focus, start off by focusing on trying to change a ripple, change one very small thing.
[00:28:48] Chris Anderson:
I am guessing that in your Kindness Pandemic, there were instances of kindness where people who thought they were divided, irretrievably by identity in some way, discovered a different way to see each other. Do you have any stories about that? 


[00:29:06] Catherine Barrett:
Beautiful story about that, Chris. I'm so pleased you asked me. 


We had a campaign called Finding Strong, because what we wanted to do was to really bring intersectional voices into the group. And, and Finding Strong was about reaching out to marginalized groups of people and asking them to share their story with The Kindness Pandemic. So, that was the first act of kindness and then hoping that people's responses would be the next act of kindness. But, what we did then, and it was a really beautiful strategy, we started off, you know, so often with marginalized groups, I think we ask them to tell us about their marginalization first. Uh, and so often people will read that, go, there's the difference. I'm not comfortable with that.

What we did, we, we said, tell us about what strong means to you and then how you found your strong, and they're the most beautiful stories, but this, what does strong mean to you is a story that almost all of us can relate to.

They were so incredibly beautiful and there were stories that were shared from people, from all works of life who were in experience, really significant inequalities shared to the group almost without backlash.
[00:30:15] Chris Anderson:
So, let me play this back because I think the, this thing probably super important here. What I hear you saying is that you, you talked about intersectional kindness and we're in a world right now where even that word is now politicized in some parts and, and the actual language around how we describe each other even has almost shut down discussion and people don't want to hear. 


And, what, what I hear you saying is that when someone from a particular identity comes in, they, they start with just their humanity. You just see it. Let me tell you my story. Let me tell you what I care about. Let me tell you what I'm passionate about. Oh, by the way. I'm from this island. I'm from this group. 


I'm, I'm a trans person or whatever it is. But that is a, that is the, by the way, it's not, it, you don't start with the fight for our rights against yours, which so quickly becomes a zero-sum game, I think. 


[00:31:07] Catherine Barrett:
So, there's a commonality. So, you're starting with a shared humanness. And, so people relate to each other. 


That's, that's the bridge.

[00:31:14] Chris Anderson:
Yeah.

[00:31:15] Catherine Barrett:
In a way that they see that connection and then they hear the story about how someone was marginalized. I think here in Australia we've, you know, we talk about diversity a lot, but I think people have started to see diversity as being your different, and I don't like it. 


[00:31:30] Chris Anderson:
Right.

[00:31:30] Catherine Barrett:
Or, you are different and I may or may not be interested in hearing what your difference is, but what we're saying to people is we need to rethink that. And, and actually I think we need refeel it. So, feel that sense of shared humanity and then hear about what people are experiencing. 


[00:31:47] Chris Anderson:
Yeah. I love that. 


Talk about intergenerational kindness, and, and I think this is gonna get back to the work that you do, but tell us, give us a couple of stories of what intergenerational kindness looks like. 


[00:32:01] Catherine Barrett:
So, I think for us with Kindness Pandemic, what we wanted to see was how we could apply the enthusiasm and interest to combating this problem of ageism. 


Uh, and, so what we wanna do is bring older and younger people of all ages together. So, we are having this, what we call Gen K, and we're saying, well, we're gonna have multi-generational workshops where we bring people together and we explore their commonalities, we explore ageism, and then we ask them to work together to undertake an act of kindness for someone doing it tough in their local community. 


[00:32:35] Chris Anderson:
Tell me a story of how that played out. 


[00:32:37] Catherine Barrett:
One of the really beautiful ones was in New South Wales, so it was an older and younger woman who was like in her twenties, and they got together, uh, normally the older woman was in a 12-step program and there was a, a young man struggling in the 12-step program. 


And, they said, why don't we write him a letter just to encourage him because he is struggling. So, this guy, Sam, wrote him a letter and it transformed what he was experiencing. It gave him the courage to continue through his 12-step program, and it formed a really strong connection between the older and the younger woman. 

So, they still keep contact, but what also happened was they shared the story of this letter to Sam and the impact it had. And, so Norma says she was swamped then afterwards by people going, how do I be part of this kindness letter writing thing? 


And, Norma's saying to them, just write a letter. And, so I think it's almost a reminder of the simplicity of kindness, it doesn't need to cost anything. 


[00:33:39] Chris Anderson:
And, so someone might hear this and say, well, this is, this is great that some people are there to provide some support and love and variety for these older people's lives. But, have you found that there's also a pretty big impact on the younger people themselves? 


[00:33:58] Catherine Barrett:
Oh, absolutely. And, so the young woman in the workshop that worked with Norma said that this weekly gathering with Norma was the highlight of her week. She called herself an introvert, and she didn't understand that there were issues of loneliness for older women, and she absolutely loved it. So, it built a connection for her that she has continued after the workshop. 


So, it works for everyone. It's not just set up to support older people. 


[00:34:26] Chris Anderson:
You've spoken about how moving all these different acts of kindness are to the people reading about them, but what about to the actual givers themselves, the people who have been kind. What's your sense about the impact on them? 


[00:34:41] Catherine Barrett:
So, we talk about three ways of kindness:
 kindness to the recipient, which I think most of us understand, kindness, the person who is the giver, and then kindness to the committee. So, sharing it through loud kindness and what people tell us is that by undertaking an act of kindness, even the simplest act of kindness, they feel that they are connected to a higher purpose, to something that makes them feel like they have a place of belonging in the world. 


And, I think that's incredibly important and not really very well understood. People don't understand that it can have a transformative effect on us when we can feel like we belong when we do something for someone else. 


[00:35:22] Chris Anderson:
And, so it's very exciting to hear you say that because it's, I just feel this passionately, it's the theme that I came back to again and again in, in the book that so many of history's wisest people say that being kind or being generous brings with it happiness

Science, if you research it, says that being generous gives you happiness, and yet in our daily lives it's almost forgotten. And, so it's this delicious discovery and it, it feels, to me it's, it's tragic, but that is not more widely known because that right there is the, is the secret source.

Like I, I think about volunteering, you know, an hour a week, you know, to spend time with an older person. And, it, it scares me and it's like, oh, I, I don't wanna do that. I'd rather just doom scroll or, you know, play or whatever. If I knew more profoundly what that reaction of that woman was, that this, this actually can be the highlight of a week. if that knowledge was out there, it would unlock so many more generous acts.

And, I, I hope that one, you know, takeaway from listening to you, and I certainly hope it's a takeaway of people reading the book, is that generosity carries with it happiness. And, it's not like I, icecream, I lick an icecream, I feel happiness. 


It's deeper. It's deeper. It's the, it's the feeling of fulfillment of, oh my goodness, I, I didn't know I could be this person, and I didn't know that being this person actually feels this way. Wow.
[00:36:47] Catherine Barrett:
Sometimes people think kindness is very floss. You know that it's all sweet and instantly gone, but it's actually something that is really fundamental and grounded in our sense of who we are as human beings, and it's a really sustained positive feeling. 


[00:37:02] Chris Anderson:
Mm-Hmm. Catherine, I, I would like to say something to you. You know, as I was thinking about generosity in a, in, I thought, oh, I know pandemic, Infectious Generosity. That's how we're gonna make generosity seem less boring. And, there you were, you know, two years ahead of me, I think with, you know, Kindness Pandemic, which turned out to be one of the great proof points for the book that this actually can happen, that kindness actually can take off and go viral in the most beautiful way. I think the anti-ageism project is so important. I just wanna say thank you. I, I think The Kindness Pandemic has really, uh, such a bright spot, uh, in, in all of the awfulness that happened in the last few years. And, I, I just wish you all of the very best in all you're doing, Catherine. 


[00:37:49] Catherine Barrett:
Well, thank you to you as well and I think Chris, don't give up on changing the world too. You know, your book Infectious Generosity is really calling for us all to understand our power, to recognize this as a moment in time we can change the world. 
All of us wanna live in a better world, and we need to understand that we are the change. We are the people who will make that happen. 


[00:38:12] Chris Anderson:
Yep, we can do this. Let's not sleepwalk into the future. Let's co-write a better future. I love it. Thank you. Thank you so much. 


Okay, then. That's about it for today. Next week we're switching gears to the realm of psychology and talking with Paul Bloom about what we can learn about generosity from the science of the mind.

For more, please follow along in my book, Infectious Generosity. You can access a free copy of the audiobook or the eBook at ted.com/generosity. 


If you're curious to learn more about Catherine's work or to join your local Kindness Pandemic Facebook group, go to www.thekindnesspandemic.org. The TED Interview is part of the TED Audio Collective, a collection of podcasts dedicated to sparking curiosity and sharing ideas that matter.

This episode was produced by Jess Shane. 
Our show is mixed by Sarah Bruguiere. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Grace Rubenstein, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Roxanne Hai Lash, and Daniella Balarezo.

If you like the show, do please leave us a review. It helps others find us and yep, we read every one of them. Thank you so much for listening. This is Chris Anderson. 
I will catch you next time.