Should kids have more freedom? (Transcript)

Mona Chalabi:
So Saleem, um, last season on, “Am I Normal?” I wound up spending a lot of time talking to my mum who was an obstetrician and gynecologist. But I didn't spend much time talking about my dad, who practiced for many, many years as a pediatrician.

And I think the fact that he was a doctor played a really big part in our upbringing, obviously, um, but maybe not in the way that people might expect. So, I would say that we were raised a little bit weirdly.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Wait, weirdly, how?

Mona Chalabi:
So compared to, I would say pretty much every single one of my friends, we had fewer rules growing up. I think my parents really believed that we would figure out a lot about the world by trial and error, kind of on our own. And that doesn't mean they weren't there to catch us when we fell, or providing guidance, but it did mean that we had a lot of independence. So I'll give a kind of weird example. A bunch of my friends had some kind of rules around food, particularly when they were really, really young, right?

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Mona Chalabi:
So, you know, if you want to eat some candy, well, you have to eat your dinner first and then you can have some candy later. Or maybe you’re only allowed like one candy bar per day and not seven.

We had a cupboard that had candy in it, and the idea was just, I don't know, eat until you make yourself sick, and then you'll know what makes you feel sick.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Did it work?

Mona Chalabi:
I don't know, I've kind of got a bit of a sweet tooth. Um, but you know, like, and also I actually had like nine fillings as a child, which is pretty intense. I think it was nine. I had like a crazy number of fillings. But, I do feel like both me and my sister had this, like, feeling of, like, can-do-ness that came from this belief that we would figure it out. And we could figure it out on our own without somebody telling us exactly what to do.

So that kind of got me onto this path of, like, looking for weird and interesting data about childhood independence. It's obviously a really difficult thing to measure, right? Like, how do you measure something as kind of vague and subjective as parental style?

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Mona Chalabi:
But what I did find was one report from 2015 that was all about children's independent mobility. It was published by a nonpartisan British think tank called the Policy Studies Institute, and this particular study looked at 16 different countries and found that Japan had one of the highest rates of independent mobility for children.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, I have so many questions. I mean, first of all, when I hear that there's data about kids' mobility, I've got to know: how do they measure that?

Mona Chalabi:
So, the researchers were tracking 18,303 children that were aged between 7 and 15, which is obviously a pretty big spread. So what they did was they asked the children and their parents a series of questions to better understand the degree of freedom that those children had.

And more specifically, they were interested in the degree of freedom those kids had to travel and play in their local neighborhoods without adult supervision, and I think that is a really interesting metric of this idea of independent mobility.

Saleem Reshamwala:
You know, it's funny, I, I have kind of a double-sided relation to this question in more than one way. So, I have my memories of being a kid. For me, I grew up in a house that had kind of just a mashup of strictness and not strictness. Weird rules like you could never eat a sweet cereal unless it was mixed with an unsweet cereal as well. So we were always eating weird mashup cereals. Um, and yet, you know, I was a latchkey kid, so I came home at 2:15 and just did whatever I felt like for a few hours every day, you know?

But I've also got two children now, and I'm deciding every day what to let them do or not do. And I'm actually specifically interested in Japan. I lived in Japan for years and my family's mixed Japanese. And you do see it in Japan. Have you, have you seen the show, um, “Old Enough” by any chance on Netflix?

Mona Chalabi:
Do you know what, that is– That is the very first thing that I thought of when I was looking at this data because I absolutely have watched that show and thought it was incredible.

And, also honestly, a little bit terrifying to watch. Like it stressed me out because it's such a high degree of independent mobility. Do you mind describing, like, what happens on the show?

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah, so on this show, very tiny children, sometimes as young as two, are given their first errand. And they have to do things like pick up something from the seafood market or go deliver lunch to their parents at work.

And because they’re tiny children, they make mistakes along the way. I think there's an episode where a child drops a fish. It is, it is heartbreaking when it happens. You're fully there. And you get to see 'em recover. And they do it, they actually pull off these errands as children, which I don't think I ever see in the U.S.

Mona Chalabi:
That's also what's so mind-blowing about it, is how young these kids are.

Saleem Reshamwala:
I think it kind of blew up in America ‘cause every parent was like, A, aside from the shock factor–

Mona Chalabi:
Whoa.

Saleem Reshamwala:
I think it raised so many questions of how much should I be letting my kid do? Should my kid be doing more? So, I'm getting the vibe that the right person to talk to is a Japanese parent.

Mona Chalabi:
Yes, please, Saleem. Go find one.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Mission accepted. I'mma have that conversation. I’m Saleem Reshamwala, and this, from the TED Audio Collective, is a special season of Am I Normal.

[MUSIC]

Yoko Inoue:
My neighborhood, everybody knows everybody. It's almost too much, you know.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
This is Yoko Inoue.

Yoko Inoue:
I'm from Japan. And, I'm freelancer, um, photographer.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Yoko and her husband have two kids, Motoki and Keito. Their oldest, Motoki, was actually born in New York City – where Yoko spent around 15 years.

Now, though, they live in a smaller town in the countryside of Japan, outside of Okayama – where everybody knows everybody.

Yoko Inoue:
Like, I walk the dog every day in the morning and then my, you know, dog poop. And then I– I'm always pick, but like, if, if I don't do it, I know somebody's watching me, you know, to make sure I pick up poop.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
That’s a lot of social pressure, to have eyes on you all the time. But – there’s also upsides.

Yoko Inoue:
If I’m raising kids, it's helpful because they're always, you know, watching and they, they always, like they say, “Oh, your son, you know, is very nice because he does greetings.” I'm like, “Oh really? Because he doesn't do that to me. I must thank you for letting me know.”

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Since Yoko has this dual perspective of having lived in a big city in the U.S. AND a small town in Japan – I was really curious about how that’s affected how she thinks about parenting and independence for her kids.

Yoko Inoue:
Um, I have two boys. One's 8 and 15. So, um, my older son just got into high school in Japan. Um, his name's Motoki, he was born in New York, and until when he was three, and we decided to move back to Japan. He's half. And, um, I wanted him to be able to speak Japanese and also learn Japanese culture.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
And the interesting thing is that, um, my youngest son, he was born in Okayama but his personality is very American. And he's very independent and he know exactly what he wants, and he has no problem expressing himself. Whereas the older son, even though he was born in New York, he's very Japanese.

Saleem Reshamwala:
I was curious. What changed in your life as a parent when you moved from New York to Japan?

Yoko Inoue:
Oh… Most difficult thing was the Japanese school… I mean, give kids so much homework, and then it's just, they judge kids by mostly only by the scores of the test. And that was the hardest thing for me because, you know, after school kids come back, and the only time when we fight is about the homework. Myself, I don't care about homework, but the society expect the kids to do this homework.

Saleem Reshamwala:
How much independence do you think your kids have?

Yoko Inoue:
Hmm, I think they, as long as they tell me where they going and then what time they come back, um, I think they're pretty much, I think, have freedom.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
But I don't think mentally, I don't think, um, I mean, have freedom at school. Because my kids told me that they have to answer the expected right answers.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Hm.

Yoko Inoue:
I talked with my older son, you know, his experience living and going to the school in Japan. And he also said that his teacher tried to make everybody the same. So, you know, it's, it's boring. It's not fun. And, um, basically trying to make–I felt trying to make a sheep, but obviously, me and, you know, sons are goats.

Saleem Reshamwala:
That's, I hadn't really thought of goats as opposite of sheep but that's a really interesting metaphor. I love that. I'm especially interested because you're an artist yourself. And I, I have heard other people talk about the kind of, um, standardization or, what might be called the lack of independence in Japanese edu-education.

At the same time, when I think about Japan, I, I think of so much creativity. there’s a couple of stories that I, I always stick in my head. Um, the designer of Super Mario. He tells stories about being a kid and being free to go into little caves around his neighborhood. Or I was just listening to a story about the uh, the inventor of Pokemon constantly catching bugs. Uh, I think that's a really common activity. It's not common in the U.S., but in Japan, it's very common.

Yoko Inoue:
Yeah, that’s true. Yeah.

Saleem Reshamwala:
And I thought that was so cool.

Yoko Inoue:
And when the first time– when we moved to Japan, my older son, he never seen, uh, worms before. So he was so surprised and then we were, we lived the house, we're surrounded by the rice fields. So every day, just kids themselves go to catch, um, cicadas or frogs or fish. They do a lot.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
So that might be, yeah, I think in their mind, they have lots of more imagination. And I think it maybe, that must give a creativity, like being a kid themselves alone, so that they can get into their own world because they're seeing definitely, probably, way different, like, imaginary world.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
So it might help being more creative being away from parents.

Saleem Reshamwala:
I'm really into the idea that giving them time to have their own secret world might be important for creativity. I hadn't thought of it phrased that way, but I love that idea.

What was the first time your oldest son did something by himself? How old was he and what did he do? Or is there a line? Is it that clear or is it more gradual?

Yoko Inoue:
Right. Definitely gradual. Um, the distance is just, this area, you can be free. And then as they get older, like in junior high school, the area is getting bigger. And then high school is bigger. So like, as they get older, the distance of freedom is much larger.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah. And your younger son, what kinds of things is he allowed to do on his own?

Yoko Inoue:
So, uh, so I mean from first grade, he walked to school, um– I mean, not himself– by himself, but with the two other neighbor kids but just the kids alone. They walk to school. Before that just, you know, we drive him to, um–

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
–kindergarten and like school every day and just one day, boom. Just the kids alone. Walk to school. That's was, I remember the first day was, like, really? That's crazy. And he– they walk back, just the kids alone home. It's a huge difference without parents.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah. You know, my son is, my son's just really a few blocks from school, but he's not allowed to walk there on his own yet. Um..

Yoko Inoue:
What would happen?

Saleem Reshamwala:
And, well, it really surprised both my wife and I, realizing that it was against school rules for kids his age.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
I should jump in here – I actually checked with a teacher at the school, and they might make exceptions if parents write a letter to the school. So, it’s not quite as off-limits as I assumed.

But still, it’s not the default option to let kids my son’s age walk to school on their own. And hearing Yoko’s reaction made me reconsider some of these social norms around me. Even though she thinks Japan has a more restrictive education system and less independence for kids in some areas, she thinks the U.S. is more cautious when it comes to the physical kind of freedom.

Her husband and her youngest son, Keito, were actually spending a few months in the U.S. when I spoke to her. And her husband told her about this interesting encounter…

Yoko Inoue:
My husband told me the other day, um, he was trying to let, um, Keito, like riding bicycle a few blocks away from, by himself. And then the other parents said no, or something.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, wow.

Yoko Inoue:
But, um, I, I dunno, we, we, we kind of have to stand up for our kids. I think if we go back to U.S. and I would still probably try to give them more freedom b–as long as I think it's safe.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Why do you think that people in the US are afraid to let their kids walk to school, for example, or be a little more independent? What do you think causes that?

Yoko Inoue:
Uh, In general people, I think, they don't really think themselves or they don't question anymore. They just do because always has been done, you know? So America, like why, you know, you think it's dangerous and I don't, I don't know the answer. I don't think it's that dangerous to myself.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah.

Yoko Inoue:
I think it's okay to walk kids themselves a few blocks. What do you think it would happen? Yeah. It's a good question. People think about why. Why not?

Saleem Reshamwala:
When I think about why sometimes I’d be hesitant to have my child do certain things alone, it's a little bit because in the U.S., I’m, I'm scared that another parent might react negatively or call the school or… I actually feel a little bit of social pressure in that direction, around, um..

Yoko Inoue:
I agree. I agree. It’s same as here in Japan, but the thing is, I, you know, as long as it – I think it's a time now for parents, like, uh, we have to think ourselves what's right for us, what's right for kids, and then stand up and be confident ourselves. And that's what the kids watching, you know? And I don't want my kids to be always, you know, be scared or feel the pressure from the society and follow for the society.

I don't want my kids to do that. I want my kids to be responsible, their own happiness, own safetiness. For that reason, I have to be the one who, you know, I must take responsibility, my own happiness. I stand up for my thoughts and, um, I take responsibility for all these decisions. I want that, kids to watch that.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Yoko wants her kids to see her thinking independently. I love that idea.
There are so many facets of independence. I wanted to talk to Yoko about the physical kind, like letting your kid go run errands on their own, or walk home by themselves…

But she really wanted to talk about mental independence, like how much creativity kids have in school, or how much time they spend out in nature on their own. And there are social norms about both kinds.

All of it made me wonder… How much independence do my own kids have? How much do they want? What do they even think independence is?

So, after a short break, we’re going to talk to an ex pert on that specific topic – my four-year-old, Javid.

[BREAK]

Saleem Reshamwala:
What things are you allowed to do by yourself?

Javid:
Um, like, I sometimes play with Legos by myself. And like that kind of things.

Saleem Reshamwala:
How far can you go outside of our house without any adults?

Javid:
Um, like if someone is looking at me at the door or outside of the house, I could go to Catherine and Joann’s house.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Yeah. If we’re watching you, you're allowed to cross the street, right?

Javid:
Yeah. So… If I go over to their house, I could see the fish and talk to them. Climb the walls of their house.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Climb the walls of their house?!

Javid:
Well, I mean, like, of, like, the COVID cama-bana.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Oh, the gazebo they call the COVID cabana. Okay.

Javid:
Yeah.

Saleem Reshamwala:
It's called the COVID cabana ‘cause we were allowed to be hanging out there even when COVID was really bad because it's outdoors and safe.

Javid:
Yeah. So I might have been doing that for like 13 days or so.

Saleem Reshamwala:
I think you've been doing that for over a year.

Javid:
Yeah. I mean, maybe like 40 days or more.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Is there anything you're not allowed to do that you wish you were allowed to do?

Javid:
Um…

Saleem Reshamwala:
Come closer, come closer.

Javid:
Um, I might wish that I could drive to Lila's house by myself or something like that.

Saleem Reshamwala:
You wish you could drive by yourself to Lila's house?

Javid:
Yeah. Or like a grandparents' house by myself.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Do you know why we don't let you drive?

Javid:
Um, because I'm still a kid. That's why.

Saleem Reshamwala:
That’s right. Do you think we have too many rules for you?

Javid:
Um, I dunno. Well, maybe.

Saleem Reshamwala:
What rules do you think are too much?

Javid:
Um, like, walking to a friend's house by myself.

Saleem Reshamwala:
You wanna do that more?

Javid:
Um, like, yeah.

Saleem Reshamwala:
Okay. Well, I think this is about the end of our interview about independence. Is there anything else that you think people should know about what it's like to be a kid doing things by yourself?

Javid:
Uh, not really anything, but first to whatever I, wherever I go by myself is fun.

Saleem Reshamwala (VO):
Spoiler alert: I’m not letting him drive a car anytime soon. But it is interesting to hear about the tiny things that he loves to do on his own. And I can imagine changing things a little so he’s allowed to go a bit further out into the neighborhood.

And maybe him walking a little further will be something that starts shifting the neighborhood norms around what little kids do… one tiny four-year-old step at a time.

Am I Normal is part of the TED Audio Collective. This special series was hosted by me, Saleem Reshamwala. This episode was produced by Daphne Chen, and edited by Sara Nics. Our team includes JoAnn DeLuna, Constanza Gallardo, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Roxanne Hai Lash, and Jimmy Gutierrez.

Jennifer Nam is our researcher and fact-checker. Original theme song by Sasami. Sarah Bruguiere is our mix engineer.

And huge thanks, of course, to Mona Chalabi, for bringing me on this data scavenger hunt.

Javid:
You want me to show you how to do a backflip?

Saleem Reshamwala:
Okay.

Javid:
I can do one. Wait a second… Tada! See, I did a backflip.