Trevor Noah on the importance of context (Transcript)
ReThinking with Adam Grant
Trevor Noah on the importance of context
August 27, 2024
[00:00:00] Trevor Noah:
I used to think that I was striving towards happiness. Now I think of happiness as a frequency that you hit as a welcome coincidence to just other things that you might have been doing.
[00:00:15] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective.I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.
My guest today is comedian Trevor Noah. He's best known for hosting The Daily Show and the Grammys, but if you haven't seen his standup specials on Netflix, you're missing out. My top picks are, Where Was I? And Son of Patricia. They both made me laugh so hard I couldn't breathe. We've been at several conferences together in the past year, and along with being the funniest person in the room, Trevor is consistently the smartest.He hosts my favorite new podcast, What Now? And I could listen to him think out loud all day.
[00:01:04] Trevor Noah:
If we could focus on the context of everything, maybe just maybe we would diminish how many conflicts we get into.
[00:01:11] Adam Grant:
I was excited to talk with Trevor about how to understand each other better and what he wants to change about America. And I couldn't resist asking him to do a few impressions, including one of me.
[00:01:23] Trevor Noah:
Damn, you see this is why you, man, this is like when you do caricatures at the park, you know? And they're like, and someone like, “Draw my face.” And then you're like, “Wait, that's my nose?”
[00:01:42] Adam Grant:
Okay, Trevor, here's where I wanna start.
[00:01:43] Trevor Noah:
Let's go.
[00:01:44] Adam Grant:
What now?
[00:01:45] Trevor Noah:
What now?
[00:01:46] Adam Grant:
That's my question for you.
[00:01:47] Trevor Noah:
Oh, that is your question?
[00:01:48] Adam Grant:
Yes.
[00:01:48] Trevor Noah:
What now?
[00:01:48] Adam Grant:
What now?
[00:01:49] Trevor Noah:
But what now? Who?
[00:01:51] Adam Grant:
Okay. Yeah.
[00:01:51] Trevor Noah:
You have to aim it.
[00:01:52] Adam Grant:
I, I need it.
[00:01:52] Trevor Noah:
What now is a very powerful question, but you have to aim it. What, what now? For me? What now for the, the world? What now? For what, what, which, what now?
[00:02:00] Adam Grant:
All of the above. But actually this is, this is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. Context.
[00:02:05] Trevor Noah:
Oh, okay.
[00:02:05] Adam Grant:
Uh, you, you taught me last week that I don't give enough context in my texts.
[00:02:10] Trevor Noah:
Huh?
[00:02:11] Adam Grant:
Do you remember this?
[00:02:12] Trevor Noah:
Did I teach you this?
[00:02:12] Adam Grant:
You did.
[00:02:14] Trevor Noah:
Oh, I–
[00:02:14] Adam Grant:
Which I didn't, I didn't even know that was a thing. I thought the whole point of texting was not needing context.
[00:02:18] Trevor Noah:
We were at the same event, which was happening in Sweden. Right? An event called Brilliant Minds, and you sent a text essentially with nothing. It just said like, “Drinks afterwards. This room, hotel.”
[00:02:31] Adam Grant:
Too aggressive for you?
[00:02:32] Trevor Noah:
I just went, “Who is this for? What?” Because remember, there was nothing before that. There was no text that said anything. I don't assume that that text is meant for me. I go like, “You could be texting anyone.” And that's why my response was, “Is this for me?”
[00:02:47] Adam Grant:
I was like, “No, your doppelganger. I, I meant to send it to the other Trevor Noah currently in Stockholm.”
[00:02:52] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:02:53] Adam Grant:
But what, okay, so what context was missing?
[00:02:55] Trevor Noah:
The name might have helped.
[00:02:57] Adam Grant:
That's so formal.
[00:02:58] Trevor Noah:
I don't assume that any text that comes to my phone is meant for me.
[00:03:01] Adam Grant:
Even though we just saw each other?
[00:03:03] Trevor Noah:
Yes, but you, we saw many people.
[00:03:05] Adam Grant:
That's true.
[00:03:05] Trevor Noah:
So you could have texted somebody else by mistake and I could have been top of mind.
[00:03:09] Adam Grant:
Oh.
[00:03:10] Trevor Noah:
Which happens.
[00:03:11] Adam Grant:
It does.
[00:03:12] Trevor Noah:
Think about how many people have conversations where they're talking about something else and then all of a sudden they text that person who they said, but they weren't trying to text.
[00:03:19] Adam Grant:
That happens to you a lot.
[00:03:20] Trevor Noah:
I leave myself open to all possibilities.
[00:03:22] Adam Grant:
You get a lot of accidental invites.
[00:03:24] Trevor Noah:
I leave myself open to all possibilities.
[00:03:26] Adam Grant:
So interesting. Okay, so I need to say your name, and then you're less likely to think it was meant for another Trevor?
[00:03:30] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. Well then now I've, what I've narrowed down the, the scope. Right?
[00:03:35] Adam Grant:
That's so funny. Yeah, because my, my, my thinking is the opposite, which is it's awkward to say, “Hey, Trevor.”
[00:03:41] Trevor Noah:
It, it is an untested theory and hypothesis, but I, I think that digital communication, like texting, et cetera, has been one of the worst things to happen to romantic relationships because of exactly what you just did. “Hi, Trevor.” Oftentimes we read texts based on how we are feeling in the moment that we receive them.
[00:04:06] Adam Grant:
Yes.
[00:04:06] Trevor Noah:
And we read them based on how we feel when we are sending them. And so somebody can send you a text just saying, “Where are you?” If you feel stressed, you feel attacked. If you feel missed and longed for, you feel thought of.
[00:04:21] Adam Grant:
Aw.
[00:04:22] Trevor Noah:
Exactly. And so what I'm always conscious of is how much context we lose in these different mediums that we communicate with.
And then I always extrapolate it to the world and I go like, “Man, how much context have we lost in everything?” Because we send tweets, we don't see the person's face, we don't know that they're joking. We don't know that they're being ironic. We don't know where they're coming from. We don't know how they're saying this, why they're saying this, you know? And so I think context is everything. Without context, we are not actually communicating.
[00:04:48] Adam Grant:
It's interesting that you went to romantic relationships there though, because in some ways that's the, the domain in which you should be completely protected. In that realm.
[00:05:01] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:04:55] Adam Grant:
Because you know that the person cares about you and loves you and so you shouldn't have any reason to misinterpret and yet we're still hypersensitive even, even there.
[00:05:03] Trevor Noah:
I think all partnerships are imperfect, but I think a lot of the time people are with somebody who they know is flawed and human. And so you know that your partner could be having a day or a moment 'cause you've seen all sides of them. It's the same with the parents. Like my mom had four or five different ways of saying my name when I was like outside or in the house playing or whatever.
[00:05:23] Adam Grant:
Give us the range.
[00:05:24] Trevor Noah:
If it was like Trevooor, then I was like, “All right, she's just looking for me. She's calling for me.” You know? And if it was like “Trevor!” I was in trouble, something had gone, I was supposed to do something that hadn't been done or, you know what I mean?
And then if she would just whistle, it was like a, “Phwwwwwhht”, then I knew she was just looking for me generally, and then like, “Tabs.” Then that was like a casual, maybe she wants me to see something on TV or context, if she texted me that the same word, I would've lost all of the context and meaning between them. I would guesstimate, we could eliminate, let me throw a number, 67% of the world's conflict if we got our context rights.
[00:06:08] Adam Grant:
So how do you think about doing that? Because rarely is it so simple as using somebody's name in a text message.
[00:06:14] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, no.
[00:06:14] Adam Grant:
Although I will be doing that now. Your ne–your next text from me is gonna say, “Hello, Trevor Noah. This message is meant for you.”
[00:06:21] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, I mean, you can, and the context is that we've, now, we'd have a joke between us if we didn't have this conversation you sent that, I'll just be like, “This Adam person is really strange.” Okay. But now we have context. Right? And that's, that's where all comedy lies is context. But going back to like what you would do, I think about the Cold War.
It's like a fascinating topic for me because I feel like we're sort of in it again-ish with North Korea and everything that's happening with China and the US and, and what I find interesting is how many times during the Cold War, it was just context that was lost. It was just one leader who thought the other leader was saying this when they weren't.
It was one military person who thought their leader wanted them to do something that they didn't. It's just context. Imagine countries being invaded because people didn't clarify or didn't create context. Imagine how many people have just been subjected to horrible things just because of context and then because humans run countries, how many times humans are afraid to go like, “Oh, actually, hey, my general did that and I didn't mean that. So we're actually pulling out, sorry about that.” We'd rather carry on doing the wrong thing than admit that we were like a buffoon.
[00:07:34] Adam Grant:
You're right that a lot of times conflict begins with misunderstandings and misunderstanding comes because we're missing context.
[00:07:41] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:07:42] Adam Grant:
I also think though, that, well, “This needs context” has become a lazy way of dismissing things that are actually morally clear.
[00:07:57] Trevor Noah:
Oh, interesting.
[00:07:50] Adam Grant:
Let's take what happened after the Israel response to the Hamas attack.
[00:07:56] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:07:56] Adam Grant:
I remember posting and saying what I thought was something that required no context.
[00:08:01] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:08:01] Adam Grant:
Which is basically, “I reject this terrorist attack. Uh, this is unacceptable. And I also reject Israel's response to it.”
[00:08:08] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:08:08] Adam Grant:
“That's also unacceptable.” And people on both sides freaked out.
[00:08:13] Trevor Noah:
That's fascinating.
[00:08:15] Adam Grant:
Well, “You don't have enough context. You're missing all this nuance in this relationship.” And I looked at that and said, “No context is required to say that. I think killing innocent people is wrong.”
[00:08:27] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:08:25] Adam Grant:
And that both sides believe that they were retaliating.
[00:08:33] Trevor Noah:
Right.
[00:08:28] Adam Grant:
“And that's why we're in this mess to begin with and it needs to end.” And so I, I wonder if “that doesn't have enough context” is also is, I guess it's becoming an excuse.
[00:08:42] Trevor Noah:
So I can agree with you, but I can also disagree with you on this.
[00:08:42] Adam Grant:
Please do.
[00:08:42] Trevor Noah:
I think it is crystal clear from your perspective, and I think from my perspective, I would agree with you in that, but I can also understand how somebody who's seeing the situation from a different perspective may go, “No, you are leaving out the context.” Let's say somebody's like completely pro-Israel.
They're going no, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is revenge or retaliation or, or justice. That's the context you're leaving out. We, we were attacked first.” And then somebody on the other side would go. And when we say other side, you even gotta be careful. 'Cause I'm not saying people are pro-Hamas or, you know, someone might be like, “Hey, if you've created a powder keg where everybody is living together and now this has grown out of it, that's the context that you're missing.”
And so, and so it's, it's, it's exactly that funny enough, it's like, because you were not able or in a position where you could express your complete view from beginning to end, there's a part of the sentence that you said silently in your head.
[00:09:39] Adam Grant:
Yep.
[00:09:39] Trevor Noah:
And there's a part of the sentence at the end that you said silently in your head.
[00:09:42] Adam Grant:
And there always is.
[00:09:42] Trevor Noah:
And because people don't know you intimately, they cannot assume that because the world or the internet is filled with other people who don't share those same beginnings and ends and silent sentences. Right? And so now what happens is somebody goes, “Oh, I see what you're trying to do here. You are an apologist.”
[00:10:00] Adam Grant:
Just you're trying to both sides of this.
[00:10:01] Trevor Noah:
You're trying to both sides of it.
[00:10:02] Adam Grant:
False equivalence. How dare you.
[00:10:04] Trevor Noah:
Exactly. I remember like years ago when I was joining The Daily Show, someone was like, “We've unearthed these tweets that Trevor put out and like he said these things as horrible.” Now the context for me was like, “Hey man, I'm a comedian and back in the day when Twitter started, a lot of comedians, especially in South Africa, you'd write down like a premise idea just so that you can say like, ‘Hey, this is what I was thinking of and this is what I'm working towards.’ It was like a notepad that's public, but there's no context.
And as your followers grow, as people grow, you get more people who don't know you, don't know about you, don't know how you think, and now they, they observe this as context. Here was a perfect example. One of my tweets, I'll never forget, this was a tweet. There was a woman who tweeted, she said, um, she said, “A woman that is loved becomes twice the woman that she was before.” And then I responded to it and I said, “Is this your way of admitting that you're fat?”
[00:10:54] Adam Grant:
Oh no.
[00:10:54] Trevor Noah:
Right?
[00:10:55] Adam Grant:
No.
[00:10:56] Trevor Noah:
People were like, “This is terrible, Trevor, this, so this guy who's gonna host The Daily Show is a misogynist who's fat shaming.” The context that people were missing was that, that tweet was sent by my girlfriend at the time, and I was responding to her.
We had just had an amazing morning together. We'd had breakfast, we had a lot of fun, and we were laughing about how much weight we had gained, and the whole conversation we had was about how much easier it is to gain weight when you're in love and you're having fun.
She sent that tweet as a message to me on a public forum. I responded to her on a public forum, the context doesn't exist to other people, you know, whatever, six years, seven years later. And I think in those small moments I've come to learn that that context is everything. 'Cause I, on the one hand, I can get defensive as Trevor and go like, “Well, no, you, you piece of trash you.”
But I'm like, yeah, but I can't expect everybody to know me, and I can't expect everybody to build every aspect of context about me. So then I just have to become a lot more careful about what I say and how I say it. Knowing that there might not be context.
[00:12:00] Adam Grant:
It seems like as, as a listener, as a reader, as a receiver of communication, it's just as important to say, what context am I missing before I–
[00:12:08] Trevor Noah:
As much as you can.
[00:12:07] Adam Grant:
–rush into judgment.
[00:12:08] Trevor Noah:
To, to borrow from your book, Think Again, it's like, “Knowing what you don't know is one of the most important things.” Do you know what I mean?
[00:12:15] Adam Grant:
You can't, you can't quote my book to me.
[00:12:16] Trevor Noah:
I can.
[00:12:17] Adam Grant:
On my podcast.
[00:12:17] Trevor Noah:
I can. That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm saying the power of knowing what you don't know. It's one of the most valuable and difficult things because you don't know. Comedy's a great, you know, example of this. You, you, you, you tell a joke for me, let's go personal, tell a joke in South Africa. I understand the context of South Africans. I've grown up there. I speak the languages.
[00:12:38] Adam Grant:
You were born a crime there.
[00:12:39] Trevor Noah:
Exactly. I was indeed. Don't quote my book at me, Adam. So. I understand the context and the audience understands the context that the joke is made in. What happens, YouTube becomes a thing. You put a video online. Now Zimbabweans, watch the clip. Namibians, they get the context because they're so close to South Africa. Some people in Australia watch it. They get it because they immigrated from South Africa. They might explain it to their friends who now get the context.
So now they like it as well. But as that concentric circle expands and expands, fewer and fewer people are getting the context. And then at some point somebody goes, “How could you say that word?” And you're like, “Well, in my country, that, that word means something completely different.” And so I think generally, if you are going to be on the side of putting things out, you then have to assume some of the risk of figuring out what the context may be.
It's like putting the label on your washing machine that says, “Do not close this door with a child inside it.” Seems very stupid, but it's like, “Hey, you know what I mean? If it'll mean fewer children are inside my tumble dryer, when it gets turned on, then I'll, I'll put the little label ahead of it.” 'Cause it provides context.
[00:13:46] Adam Grant:
You had a, I thought a great metaphor for this, thinking about a nuclear bomb going off.
[00:13:51] Trevor Noah:
Oh yeah.
[00:13:51] Adam Grant:
A blast radius. Talk to me about that.
[00:13:53] Trevor Noah:
Nuclear weapons are, I mean, they're devastating, but it's interesting to see how the effect of a nuclear bomb goes far beyond the initial explosion. The bomb goes off. People are decimated and it's terrible. But one could argue the people who experience the fallout, the ash that gets spread and that radiation that gets on people's skin and gives them cancer over the years, one could argue that they've had a worse outcome.
You watch a video online as a person, it is distressing to you, really doesn't make you feel good. It makes you angry even. What is the thing you do? You retweet it, you repost it, you send it to other people. And while I understand one part of it, the thing I've started asking myself over the past few years is, “Okay, but what am I doing? Am I spreading the nuclear ash? Or am I actively helping the situation now?”
Someone said, “No, no, you bring, you're helping the situation because...” But a lot of the time you don't, you don't, you don't bring additional context. You don't, you don't do your research. I've seen videos online, a terrible thing that happened a decade ago. You see it, it makes you angry. You send it off. It'll be one of my friends who maybe is a little more diligent in that moment who says to me, “Hey, this is from 15 years ago.”
And you're like, “Oh, oh, well I just sent it to like 20 people who are angry now.” Now my question is, “Have I helped them? Have I improved the world? Have I given them the context they deserve?” I don't think I have. I don't think we have. And that's like one of the downsides of social media slash being able to just send things out there is we are losing the context of time. We are losing the context of location. We're losing the context of, you know, the participants we lose. And with that, I think we are losing the context of, of the world we are living in.
[00:15:49] Adam Grant:
I love your outsider perspective on America.
[00:15:51] Trevor Noah:
Oh, thank you.
[00:15:51] Adam Grant:
And I think you often see things about Americans that are invisible to us.What bothers you most about Americans and American culture?
[00:15:59] Trevor Noah:
Huh? There are many things I appreciate about America, especially, you know, when I travel out of it, I think Americans take for granted, how, like, generally friendly they are, you know, like this is something that's hard for Americans to appreciate, but like, man, Americans are generally affable people.
Doesn't matter where you go in the country, forget all the stereotypes. Forget like, yeah, there's assholes everywhere, but New Yorkers are really kind and they'll help people and they'll give them directions and they, yeah, they, they might not be down for small talk with every random stranger. 'Cause there's so many people, but New Yorkers have that.
You, you travel to the south and some random person will spark up a conversation with you. You go to California and people are smiling at you and you want to chat about your dog or random things. That's like a really beautiful aspect of American life that doesn't exist in many other places.
You know, I think in Africa it does. I think maybe Africans outperform America and on that, like axis, but yeah, you know, the, the bother might be the wrong word for me. For me it's more like notice. I'll notice things, you know, so one of the biggest things I've noticed living in America is people have been taught to believe that there are only two ways to solve any problem.
And I think a lot of that has been a byproduct of the political system. You ban all the guns, or you give everybody the guns. Those are the only options, not because it's you know, American people's fault. I think a lot of the system has shaped how people see the possibilities in the world that they live in, and that is something that I've been lucky to have coming from a country where I saw the birth of a democracy, I witnessed it and I continue to witness it evolve.
It's interesting to see how people find different ideas and different ways to approach the same issue. And they accept that it might come in a variety of ways. They go like, “Oh, here's five political parties who all agree that this is an issue, and they all think they're gonna fix it in a different way.”
That's something I notice in America, even like news headlines for instance, will be written like that. “Why wine is good for you, why cell phones are actually good for you.” It's like, okay, everything's good and bad. Good and bad. Good and it's like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe there's a little bit of everything in everything. And then we're always trying to find the gray.
[00:18:14] Adam Grant:
This happens not just in politics and in the media, but in, in all kinds of spheres of life. I'm thinking about a, a Paul Nutt study looking at hundreds of organizational decisions and trying to compare the ones that went well versus the ones that went poorly and looking for what are the leading indicators of a bad decision.
And it turns out that the single best predictor he can find of many factors is, did you only consider two options? Just considering a third was enough to predict having at least better odds of making a good choice. Now, I don't know whether just getting people to consider a third possibility unlocks a better choice, or whether the kinds of people who are already more sophisticated thinkers are more likely to look behind door number three.
[00:18:54] Trevor Noah:
Hmm.
[00:18:54] Adam Grant:
But there's, there's something there.
[00:18:56] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. But I think if you give people a third choice, they're more likely to exercise it.
[00:19:01] Adam Grant:
I think that's right. So where would you start giving people third choices? So I'm gonna, you've been doing magic wand experiments. Trevor runs the world, which I love. You get to redesign our politics.What's your third option you seriously want on the table?
[00:19:19] Trevor Noah:
I fundamentally believe that there should be a lot more, what I would like to call, like blind politics in America. So we start with, like, something simple. I don't understand why newspapers in America put a little D or R. Behind a politician's name when they make any statement or when they suggest any policy, there's literally no purpose to that.
[00:19:45] Adam Grant:
You don't think there's a purpose to that?
[00:19:46] Trevor Noah:
There's none. Why is there?
[00:19:50] Adam Grant:
I think they're trying to signal what their vested interests might be.
[00:19:50] Trevor Noah:
But I mean, for the idea itself.
[00:19:51] Adam Grant:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:19:53] Trevor Noah:
This person says we should build more bridges. Okay. Why? Why does the Republican, Democrat thing matter? In my opinion it doesn't.
[00:20:03] Adam Grant:
So you wanna decouple our policies from our politics?
[00:20:06] Trevor Noah:
I think so. I know this is gonna sound extreme. I would even decouple the policies from the politicians.
[00:20:11] Adam Grant:
So we're going full on direct democracy. People are gonna vote for policies now.
[00:20:14] Trevor Noah:
Well, I think, like, a lot of people vote because they like the charisma of the person and they like how they string a sentence together. And that doesn't tell you anything about their aptitude or their ability to lead.
[00:20:32] Adam Grant:
None.
[00:20:25] Trevor Noah:
None whatsoever. Do you know what I mean? What is the point of a debate? Ask this as an honest question. What is the point of a presidential debate? People go, “Oh, we want to hear their vision.” Yes, but now you can just get up there. You can say something that's not true. You can spout facts that aren't facts. You can say statistics that aren't real. Nobody stops you. Nobody says that isn't true. Nobody says that's wrong.
There's no Adam Grant to go, “Ah. Actually the science has shown...” No. You can just get up there and say, “Since the, when the border opened, this many more people were killed.” And then that's it. And then the other person says, “Yeah, when we allowed companies to globalize, it increased everybody's wealth.” And then we just move on.
How is this informing people how people vote? It doesn't. It's just who's more convincing in what they say? I think I'll do a lot more decoupling. I would try and separate ideas from the people who are selling the ideas for two reasons. One, because I think we'd be a little more clear-eyed in choosing the idea versus the person.
And two, I think it would give people an opportunity to walk away from bad ideas because now they're not attached to the person.
[00:21:33] Adam Grant:
Yep. Or the party for that matter.
[00:21:35] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason we have such a tough time communicating as people is because you, you don't, you don't wanna be embarrassed.You voted for this person. You know what I mean? Like, I remember someone said this to me with was a Governor Cuomo in New York. They were like, “You had him on your show and you said he was doing a good job.” I'm like, “Yeah. 'Cause I thought he was at the time. That's what the evidence said.” And then when it changed, I was like, “Well, he did a shit job.”
[00:21:57] Adam Grant:
You're not invested in that.
[00:21:58] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, I'm not invested in it, you know, I'm just like, “Yeah, man, you can make the jokes and you can do the thing.” But I think everybody should be open to changing their mind based on some sort of evidence that shows them. And I'm like, “Yeah, that's, that's life. You know?”
[00:22:11] Adam Grant:
It's, I mean, it's glaringly obvious to me, not to a lot of people, but, but I get why?
[00:21:15] Trevor Noah:
Because you, you're attached to a person and you're attached to your ability to judge that person. And so now in letting them go, you have to let a piece of yourself go. Which can be destabilizing and embarrassing.
[00:22:26] Adam Grant:
Yeah. But it shouldn't be that hard to say, “My judgment was wrong, or I was uninformed, or misinformed.”
[00:22:32] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. But I think it's, I think it is hard.
[00:22:34] Adam Grant:
I agree. It's definitely hard, but I, I'm intrigued by this idea of, okay, what do we do instead of debates? So, a while back, I, I think it must've been in 2016, I had the idea that if we could replace debates with board games, that would be ideal.
[00:22:48] Trevor Noah:
Oh, I love this. Go, go in, go along.
[00:22:49] Adam Grant:
Well, my, my thought was, let's, let's break down the job of a, a public official.
[00:22:54] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:22:54] Adam Grant:
And think about what are the skills we wanna see. Do they have them or not?
[00:23:57] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:22:58] Adam Grant:
I'd say let's play Risk for strategy.
[00:23:00] Trevor Noah:
Okay. Okay.
[00:23:01] Adam Grant:
Uh, or chess for that matter, we could go to, to clue for information seeking and–
[00:23:06] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:23:06] Adam Grant:
–problem solving.
[00:23:07] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:23:08] Adam Grant:
We could play Monopoly to see if they have a tantrum or they can regulate their emotions. And I, I actually think there are enough board games out there to cover all the major skills of the job.
[00:23:16] Trevor Noah:
I like this. As a big fan of game nights. I like this.
[00:23:18] Adam Grant:
Okay, so where, where would you take this?
[00:23:21] Trevor Noah:
So the board game one would be interesting 'cause my problem is they would still sort of know that they're being tested so they may be able to exhibit behavior that isn't real. Here's what I would do in like a crazy world, Americans love game shows. Americans love voting for people on competitions. So I'll go, why not combine those things? Instead of debates, what if we had a show on TV?
We still call it the debate, but it's a debate of ideas. What happens is a few ideas come on the screen, so they go, “Hey, this is the idea. Do you think that women should have a right to decide what happens with their own bodies? Everybody, you're at home with your phones and you get to text a little free number, whatever. Let's vote.”
There's this idea, there's this idea, there's this idea, there's this idea, and it's like boing, and then it comes up and it goes like, “Whoa. Look at that. Overwhelmingly, 70 something percent of the population believes that women should be able, okay, next idea. Next.” And then at the end of the debate, you would then have the politicians walk out and then they would go.
“Who had more ideas that the people liked? It's this person and who had fewer ideas was this person.” And then you show the people, these are the things you liked from them. These are the things you liked from them. These are the things you didn't like. These are the things you didn't like. We'll see you at the next debate.
I would argue the politicians can't, like, sell you on ideas. They have to figure out what the people want and need first, which is what their job should be. And then they have to respond to that. And I dunno if it would be perfect, but I think it would be better than two people on stage shouting at each other for like two hours with no form of anything that answers anything, in my opinion.
[00:24:52] Adam Grant:
It sounds like an experiment worth running.
[00:24:58] Trevor Noah:
I think it would be fun.
[00:24:54] Adam Grant:
Oh, I would, I would love to watch that. If you could set it up so you didn't already know who wanted which proposal or policy.
[00:25:01] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, I think you could 'cause most of the debates are vague, so I think if you, if you drill down, it actually becomes a lot more real.You know, if, if, if we look at every policy now in the vagary that it exists in, it doesn't mean anything. This person is pro-closed borders. What does that mean? This person believes in open border. Yeah. What does that mean?
[00:25:24] Adam Grant:
I, I love the specificity of it, and I think it would be fun to watch and it would force politicians to actually think about what, what people want and what is good for a country.
[00:25:37] Trevor Noah:
Right.
[00:25:32] Adam Grant:
The, the thing that might be dangerous about it is it could be like a, like a gateway drug to populism.
[00:25:39] Trevor Noah:
Oh, okay.
[00:25:40] Adam Grant:
And some, well, sometimes there are, there are ideas that are unpopular that are good, right? So think about Lincoln, for example. The Emancipation Proclamation was a very unpopular idea.
[00:25:50] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:25:50] Adam Grant:
Originally.
[00:25:50] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:25:51] Adam Grant:
And if we ran this game show in Lincoln's era, he would've probably walked away from it.
[00:25:55] Trevor Noah:
Mm-hmm.
[00:25:56] Adam Grant:
And I think we need politicians and leaders of all kind who have the courage right to, to advocate for ideas that might not be popular. So how do we solve this? Here's the thought, one of the other things I'd love to do is I'd love to run forecasting tournaments.
So part of a leader's job is to predict the future. Every time you formulate strategy.
[00:26:13] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:26:13] Adam Grant:
You're making a bet on what is, what's the other side.
[00:26:16] Trevor Noah:
What potential future could be.
[00:26:16] Adam Grant:
Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:17] Trevor Noah:
Yeah,
[00:26:17] Adam Grant:
Yeah, yeah. Even when you hire somebody, right?
[00:26:18] Trevor Noah:
Right.
[00:26:19] Adam Grant:
You, you have a prediction that you're making about like, “How will this person perform in this job?”
[00:26:22] Trevor Noah:
Mm-hmm mm-hmm.
[00:26:23] Adam Grant:
“How will they fit into the team and what will their contribution to the culture be?” I would love to run forecasting tournaments where political candidates have to predict what's gonna happen to the price of the Euro, who's gonna get elected in a given country, who's gonna go to war with very clear binary events.
[00:26:42] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:26:38] Adam Grant:
And then they would get objective scores. And I would be more willing to invest the person who's better at seeing the future.
[00:26:44] Trevor Noah:
Whew. I don't know if I agree with you there.
[00:26:45] Adam Grant:
Why not?
[00:26:46] Trevor Noah:
I think they, you may as well give monkeys like tomatoes and ask them to throw them at something and then we go with that. I think humans are notoriously bad at predicting anything.
[00:26:56] Adam Grant:
Of course we are.
[00:26:57] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, and I think all of the external factors that affect these things are like, so we might now pick the worst leader because they happen to be the luckiest at predicting the right things.
[00:27:07] Adam Grant:
No. So here's what we do. So in these forecasting tournaments.
[00:27:10] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:27:10] Adam Grant:
They're super forecasters and they are consistently not only more likely to be right, but they're also better calibrated.
[00:27:17] Trevor Noah:
Okay? Okay. Okay.
[00:27:17] Adam Grant:
So you have them make a forecast.
[00:27:19] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:27:19] Adam Grant:
And then they give a confidence interval. And then what you're looking for are the people who, when they turned out to be right, had been highly confident and when they turned out to be wrong, had expressed a lot of uncertainty and doubt.
[00:27:29] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:27:30] Adam Grant:
There's a reliable group of people who are better at that than the rest of us. If you look at Phil Tetlock's research, for example, it's not what they know. It's how they think. Um, they're better at thinking like scientists as opposed to preacher, prosecutors, politicians.
[00:27:40] Trevor Noah:
I like that.
[00:27:41] Adam Grant:
They're better at sort of treating their ideas as hypotheses as opposed to certainties.
[00:27:45] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
[00:27:45] Adam Grant:
And I don't know whether the candidate's gonna do that. Maybe they hire a, a crack team of super forecasters. Well, guess what? Then we're electing somebody who had the good judgment to–
[00:27:54] Trevor Noah:
This is true.
[00:27:54] Adam Grant:
–surround themselves with people with good judgment.
[00:27:56] Trevor Noah:
And those, and those are actually the people who are gonna be running things.
[00:27:58] Adam Grant:
Exactly.
[00:27:59] Trevor Noah:
They don't run it alone. So I'm not mad about.
[00:27:58] Adam Grant:
Have I opened your mind on this idea?
[00:28:02] Trevor Noah:
Oh, my mind is always open. I'm in on that element of it. One thing I would, I would still flag though, is this, it is difficult to judge somebody's ability to forecast or not forecast when they are also part of making the thing happen or not happen. Does that make sense?
[00:28:19] Adam Grant:
Yes. Yeah. So if right, if they can influence the event.
[00:28:22] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. Because they.
[00:28:19] Adam Grant:
Because it's not a forecast.
[00:28:23] Trevor Noah:
Exactly.
[00:28:27] Adam Grant:
There's an Alan Kay line about this where he says, “As a technologist, the best way to predict the future is to invent it.”
[00:28:29] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:30] Adam Grant:
Yeah. I think one, we'd have to pick outcomes that are hard for any humans to influence.
[00:28:35] Trevor Noah:
Okay. Let me ask you this question though, before you, before you do that.
[00:28:37] Adam Grant:
Yeah.
[00:28:38] Trevor Noah:
What would be the purpose?
[00:28:39] Adam Grant:
Wait, this is my podcast. What are you doing here?
[00:28:40] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. I ask questions everywhere I go.
[00:28:42] Adam Grant:
All right. Ask me a question.
[00:28:43] Trevor Noah:
What do you do? Why are you doing this? Why do you feel that a leader's ability to forecast is that important?
[00:28:51] Adam Grant:
I think it's important for a couple reasons. Number one, it, uh, it, it basically, being a good forecaster is synonymous for being a good learner.
[00:28:58] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:28:59] Adam Grant:
If you can predict future events, it means you're good at gathering and synthesizing information. That's a vital skill for leaders who have to make high stakes decisions. That's part one. Part two is good forecasting requires you to admit when you are wrong and then update quickly.
[00:29:12] Trevor Noah:
Mm. Okay.
[00:29:13] Adam Grant:
And I want leaders who are willing to do that as opposed to sort of, well, this is my party line and I'm sticking to it.
[00:29:17] Trevor Noah:
Right.
[00:29:18] Adam Grant:
And three, I think it's, it's a chance to see, okay, do you surround yourself with people who, who make you feel smart? Do you surround yourself with people who are smarter than you? Do you surround yourself with people who make the whole room smarter? And I think it's a test of that as well.
[00:29:33] Trevor Noah:
Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Now I have a fuller understanding of what a forecast is. Now that I have the context of that, please carry on with what you were saying.
[00:29:40] Adam Grant:
Okay. So I just fell victim to what psychologists call the curse of knowledge. Where I took for granted that it was obvious that these are the benefits of running a forecasting tournament.
[00:29:50] Trevor Noah:
Yes, exactly.
[00:29:500] Adam Grant:
And you didn't have that knowledge.
[00:29:52] Trevor Noah:
That's why I clarify. 'Cause I go like, what do you mean by then? I'm like, okay, now I understand what you're looking for in a forecaster. I'm completely in. Let's do it.
[00:30:03] Adam Grant:
Alright lightning round. You ready? Okay, first question.
[00:30:06] Trevor Noah:
Wait, wait, wait. Let me, let me clarify. So your type of lightning round, is it you, you are gonna ask the questions very quickly?
[00:30:12] Adam Grant:
I am.
[00:30:13] Trevor Noah:
And then I'm expected to ask them quickly, or do you want my answers to be shorter?
[00:30:17] Adam Grant:
Oh, short answers from you.
[00:30:19] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:30:20] Adam Grant:
But also you're giving me a new idea. I'm gonna ask them in rapid fire and we're gonna see if you can understand what I'm saying. Okay. First question.
[00:30:25] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:30:26] Adam Grant:
What's the worst advice you've ever gotten?
[00:30:27] Trevor Noah:
What's the worst advice I've ever gotten?
[00:30:29] Adam Grant:
What's the worst advice you've ever gotten?
[00:30:30] Trevor Noah:
Is, um, be yourself. I think that's terrible advice.
[00:30:34] Adam Grant:
Steve Martin said the same thing--
[00:30:35] Trevor Noah:
Really?
[00:30:37] Adam Grant:
–when I asked him. Why?
[00:30:37] Trevor Noah:
It's terrible advice, because I think two things. One, telling somebody to just be themselves, ignores where they are being themselves and what themselves comes with. Do you know what I mean? I know of a lot of people who are like bosses in companies who are themselves and themselves is like, makes people uncomfortable and makes shitty jokes and, and hey, that's fine for you in your life.
But now when you are acting as somebody who has power over other people, don't just be yourself. Uh, maybe you should be more boss, more leader. I think that's one side of it. And then the other one, maybe there's a little more philosophical is like, like what is yourself? There is no yourself in my opinion.
Right? So be yourself means what? It, it, it oftentimes comes with an assumption that everybody's going to be the way the person who is suggesting it would like them to be. And oftentimes, I actually think that's why we end up in like the worst place is like, maybe you shouldn't always just be yourself. No. Read the room.
[00:31:37] Adam Grant:
Love it. What's something you've changed your mind about lately?
[00:31:40] Trevor Noah:
Happiness. Over the past year, I've been traveling to different parts of the world that have very different, different definitions of happy, um, I'm saying things broadly here, but like I found a lot of people in Japan would tell me that they really sort of didn't even think about their happiness.They thought more about like the societal good. When I was in Bhutan, happiness was really more about being content and the way we were using happiness was different. In Scandinavia, happiness is really more about just contentment and it's like, and so I think over the past, yeah, I would say like maybe a year and a half-ish, I've changed my idea of what happiness is or isn't and how it should manifest and where I used to think that I was striving towards happiness. Now I think of happiness as a frequency that you hit as a welcome coincidence to just other things that you might have been doing.
[00:32:34] Adam Grant:
I love the way you put that.
[00:32:36] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:32:37] Adam Grant:
That's really good. Okay, I'm breaking the lightning round here, but I have to ask a follow up. So.
[00:32:41] Trevor Noah:
Oh, thunder, here we go.
[00:32:44] Adam Grant:
What, what are the other things? Is that meaning and purpose? Is it?
[00:32:48] Trevor Noah:
Anything when you're with your people, your friends, and you, you, you argue, but collectively in a beautiful way, what is the feeling that you have after you've done something you didn't think you could do?
[00:32:58] Adam Grant:
You're reminded me so much of, uh, Ted Slingerland in Trying Not to Try and John Kay and Obliquity, uh, who make the point. Basically, I think John Stuart Mill made it first that happiness can only be pursued indirectly.
[00:33:10] Trevor Noah:
Oh, I like that. I'm, so, I'm there now. We'll chat in a few years.
[00:33:14] Adam Grant:
Welcome.
[00:33:14] Trevor Noah:
And then, yeah, that's where I'm now.
[00:33:16] Adam Grant:
I think it's a good place to land. Uh, 'cause you don't end up fixated on, “Why am I not happy right now when I made all these choices?”
[00:33:22] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:33:22] Adam Grant:
Try to optimize for my own happiness. Okay, let's try some easier to lightning questions. No more thunder. If you could host any show other than The Daily Show. What would it be?
[00:33:30] Trevor Noah:
For now? I, I'm doing what I would like to be doing. I like a podcast. I like traveling. I like long form conversations.
[00:33:38] Adam Grant:
Not helpful.
[00:33:40] Trevor Noah:
Well, you wanted it to be like a specific show. I, I know show that exists.
[00:33:43] Adam Grant:
If you could, if you weren't doing The Daily Show.
[00:33:44] Trevor Noah:
Oh.
[00:33:45] Adam Grant:
Go back in time.
[00:33:45] Trevor Noah:
Then I would love to host like a Deal or No Deal. Just to be like, “What are you thinking?”
[00:33:52] Adam Grant:
I think I'd prefer to see you on America's Got Talent.
[00:33:55] Trevor Noah:
Oh, I don't know. I think I would struggle to always be like impressed. I think that's like a, like everyone, “Oh my God.” I'm like, at some point I'm like, “Yeah, we've seen this. We’re in season five now, man.”
[00:34:07] Adam Grant:
If you could get Donald Trump to deliver any one sentence, what would it be? And can you do it in his voice?
[00:34:13] Trevor Noah:
So, so big. Hold on. So strong. I gotta say folks, I thought about it and I've been wrong. A lot of things I've been wrong about, a lot of things I've changed. I read books. I read books, still believe some things, other things have changed. That's, that's close as I would think.
[00:34:37] Adam Grant:
That's really good.
[00:34:37] Trevor Noah:
Should have endorsed your book.
[00:34:44] Adam Grant:
Can you give me Obama leading a team meeting?
[00:34:44] Trevor Noah:
You gotta think about him. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Barry coming into the meeting. Um, uh, right, everybody sure you read your, uh, your slack. Uh, I noticed a lot of people, uh, responding with the emojis. Uh, come on. What, what are we doing here, folks? Yeah, that's, that's...
[00:34:59] Adam Grant:
Wow. So good.
[00:35:00] Trevor Noah:
I, I don't do enough meetings to have, uh, like, I need to go to more meetings, then I could give you more content.
[00:35:05] Adam Grant:
How do you do that?
[00:35:06] Trevor Noah:
So I don't, I've never considered myself an impressionist. What I enjoy is like the essence of the person. I don't try to impersonate the person. I try and find like where they live and where they exist. Does that make sense?
[00:35:19] Adam Grant:
Yeah.
[00:35:20] Trevor Noah:
Like, I'm not trying to like actually do Trump. There's like a vibe of him where I'm like, “Man, this is where I think this guy exists.” So it's the same with, with uh, Obama.
[00:35:29] Adam Grant:
All right. One more impression.
[00:35:30] Trevor Noah:
Oh boy. Here we go.
[00:35:31] Adam Grant:
Gimme your impression of me.
[00:35:33] Trevor Noah:
Oh, I, I have, I have. Oh, man. So the, the first thing that's hard is like, there's something like that you have a little more nasal air, so then like your accent is like nowhere but everywhere. 'Cause where did you grow up?
[00:35:44] Adam Grant:
Michigan.
[00:35:44] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. You see, it's nowhere and everywhere. But it, the, the main thing is like, I've gotta send it up here first. That's, that's the thing. And then say, tell me your life story slowly.
[00:35:53] Adam Grant:
Life story slowly.
[00:35:44] Trevor Noah:
Life story slowly. And lemme try and find it. Oh, this is hard.
[00:35:57] Adam Grant:
I can't believe you can do this in real time.
[00:35:58] Trevor Noah:
I can't believe you're doing this in real time. I have to find this. Keep going.
[00:36:01] Adam Grant:
Okay.
[00:36:02] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:36:02] Adam Grant:
I feel like I should start talking about a study or something.
[00:36:04] Trevor Noah:
I feel like I should start talking about a study or something. Start your start. So soft. Go.
[00:36:10] Adam Grant:
Um, um. That's hilarious.
[00:36:13] Trevor Noah:
That's hilarious.
[00:36:16] Adam Grant:
Who's your favorite comedian?
[00:36:17] Trevor Noah:
Favorite comedian who you're trying to get me into beef? I think of comedians, like chefs, and I think of, I think chefs, think of chefs the way that comedians think of comedians. Everyone's got a different style, different cuisine, a different, you know, so to go like one is to say like, I would only eat that food for the rest of my life.
[00:36:32] Adam Grant:
I had a, a debate with Malcolm Gladwell years ago where I had asked him what profession he thinks has the most insight into human behavior and psychology other than psychologists.
[00:36:42] Trevor Noah:
Hmm.
[00:36:42] Adam Grant:
And my answer was comedian, and his was teacher.
[00:36:46] Trevor Noah:
Oh, interesting. As a comedian, where do you stand? Might be my bias. I would go with comedian because I think teachers are more in control or they have more power. I think a comedian is at the mercy of the audience. And so I like, I know a lot of teachers who would've had assumptions about me as a child or thought about me because it was within the confines of their classroom, whereas I find comedians generally are synthesizing the world and then wort of peer reviewing that with an audience. So they're saying to the audience, “This is what the world is, I've noticed.” And the audience goes, “No.” And they're like, “Huh.” So it's not that, or I'm not explaining it right.
[00:37:27] Adam Grant:
The feedback loop.
[00:37:28] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. It, it has additional learnings to it. You may even find that some people in society express something or do something that they do not wish for you to, um, illuminate to them. And I think that gives you a lot of understanding into humans.
[00:37:41] Adam Grant:
I think Malcolm dismissed it because he said, “How hard is it to make drunk people laugh?”
[00:37:45] Trevor Noah:
Making drunk people laugh might be the hardest thing you will ever do because you no longer have a captive audience. You no longer have people who have in–with inhibitions.You no longer have people who think that you should be on the stage. They... Trust me, now, a drunk audience might literally be the hardest group of people to make laugh.
[00:38:01] Adam Grant:
What are your favorite strategies for dealing with hecklers?
[00:38:04] Trevor Noah:
It depends on where they're heckling and how they're heckling. Every type of heckle is different. Sometimes people heckle you because they're on your side. You know, so not every heckler is a bad heckler. Sometimes they're heckling 'cause they're like, “Yeah, I love this so much. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wha what about Newcastle?” Then you have some people who heckle because they didn't even realize the words were gonna come out of their mouth.Then there are some people who heckle because they think they're funnier than the comedian on stage. Then there are some people who heckle 'cause they wanna disrupt the show. People heckle for all different types of reasons. So how I respond is literally dependent on why they heckled. Or, how much the heck will interferes with the show or disrupts the show?
Most of the time I'll ignore it 'cause I'm like, whatever. You know, you're in a room where there's so many people that this person's shouting out. Most people didn't even hear it, and now you're gonna disrupt the whole room for that. I'm like, huh, whatever. In the same way, they don't show like streakers and sporting events anymore. I don't encourage people. If you want to be funny with a crowd, go, go do the thing.
[00:38:58] Adam Grant:
It's in some ways a, a high pressure version of what we're all navigating in a world of trolls today.
[00:39:07] Trevor Noah:
Oh, interesting.
[00:39:04] Adam Grant:
And so I'm interested in what do you say to yourself when someone's heckling you? I think you gave us part of it already by adding another layer of context.
[00:39:11] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:39:11] Adam Grant:
Which is, well, what's the motivation behind the heckling?
[00:39:13] Trevor Noah:
Yes.
[00:39:18] Adam Grant:
One of the things I've, I've noticed as we've spent more time together is what a careful noticer you are of other people. Even just when you mimicked me, right, like you, you picked up on things that I wouldn't have noticed about myself, which I probably should, having occupied my own brain for a long time and listened and watched too many things that I've done, I still wouldn't have. Yeah. But I think we shouldn't be that self-aware, otherwise we we will. It's almost paralyzing. You don't want that.
[00:39:35] Trevor Noah:
Yeah.
[00:39:35] Adam Grant:
But it, it is interesting to see how, how keenly you zero in on.
[00:39:44] Trevor Noah:
Okay. Okay.
[00:39:44] Adam Grant:
Things about other people and I guess I'm curious about whether you have advice for how we can all get better at noticing.
[00:39:51] Trevor Noah:
The thing I notice about noticing is it's a combination of curiosity and constant wonder. Noticing can go the wrong way as well. You know, noticing can be the reason that you end up in conflicts with people. 'Cause you can't let go of the fact that you keep noticing a thing that they do.
[00:40:10] Adam Grant:
Yeah.
[00:40:10] Trevor Noah:
So in that case, I'll say to people, try not notice as much, you know?
[00:40:13] Adam Grant:
Well, but that's interesting though because you, you seem to pick up on a lot of things, but you do it with equanimity. Like a lot of people will notice something and they rush to judgment. I, I don't think I've ever seen anything faze you.
[00:40:26] Trevor Noah:
I definitely get phased. It just depends on when and where I am when the phasing happens. I don't know. Most things I've played out in my head, so if I walk into the street, it's, you know, a byproduct of everything in my brain. I often think to myself, “I'm like, oh, well what if someone drives a con to the sidewalk? What if a bicycle's coming quick? What if someone's walking?” But I mean, these are thoughts. They're happening so quickly that when it does happen, I don't go like, “I cannot believe that happened.” I'm just like, “Oh, well there it is.”
[00:40:55] Adam Grant:
You're already forecasting then.
[00:40:56] Trevor Noah:
I. Maybe.
[00:40:55] Adam Grant:
You're making a lot of forecasts.
[00:40:57] Trevor Noah:
Yeah, but most of them were wrong too. Also, don’t elect me. Most of them were wrong.
[00:40:59] Adam Grant:
Well, you didn't put a confidence interval around them.
[00:41:04] Trevor Noah:
This is true.
[00:41:03] Adam Grant:
Just considered the possibilities.
[00:41:04] Trevor Noah:
This is true. Okay.
[00:41:05] Adam Grant:
I think a lot of your, the things you noticed become material for your standup.
[00:41:12] Trevor Noah:
Mm-Hmm.
[00:41:09] Adam Grant:
I'm curious about what you've noticed about human behavior you would love a name for, or you would love psychologists to study.
[00:41:16] Trevor Noah:
Oh, wow.
[00:41:18] Adam Grant:
And then one of our listeners is gonna go do a doctoral dissertation on this topic.
[00:41:23] Trevor Noah:
One of my like pet peeves is how illogical people can be. Despite noticing the other people who are illogical or like, here's an example. In the airport, I still don't get why people stand on the baggage carousel.
[00:41:37] Adam Grant:
That happens?
[00:41:38] Trevor Noah:
No, what I mean is like, like loom over it.
[00:41:47] Adam Grant:
Oh yeah.
[00:41:41] Trevor Noah:
Just don't understand it as a concept. The carousels moving towards you. You are a fixed location. Each person who steps forward impedes everybody else's ability to view and collect their bag. I don't understand it. And I don't know of many other species that sort of do that. So when I'm watching like nature documentaries, animals, they adapt and they get quicker and they're like, okay, do, do you get what I'm saying?
[00:42:06] Adam Grant:
Yeah.
[00:42:07] Trevor Noah:
I'm intrigued by that. It's like, and I dunno if it's a uniquely human thing, why do we do something that is less logical and less efficient and then do more of it and not notice that it's not working?
[00:42:20] Adam Grant:
Okay. So this reminds me of the psychology of the illusion of control.
[00:42:24] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:42:25] Adam Grant:
Where people overestimate their ability to affect the things around them.
[00:42:35] Trevor Noah:
Huh.
[00:42:29] Adam Grant:
And a bias for action. Like I'd rather do something than not do anything. You think you can, you can influence the outcome, and it would be really maladaptive to live in a world where you underestimate the amount of control you have.
[00:42:48] Trevor Noah:
Okay.
[00:42:44] Adam Grant:
And so I think we're, you could say evolutionarily selected right? To maybe overestimate our ability to influence. Then what I would do is I start walking around the carousel 'cause I feel like I'm doing something.
[00:42:54] Trevor Noah:
Huh?
[00:42:55] Adam Grant:
And then it's not a watch pot that never boiled.
[00:42:58] Trevor Noah:
Interesting.
[00:42:59] Adam Grant:
Um, anyway, I think, uh, we are probably out of time, but Trevor, this was as always fun and thought provoking.
[00:43:06] Trevor Noah:
Yeah. I'm now gonna stand in the airport and tell people that time hasn't changed. That's what I'm gonna do.
[00:43:13] Adam Grant:
Good luck with that.
I love Trevor's observation that happiness is a byproduct, not a goal. There's a growing body of evidence in psychology that chasing joy can chase it away. Pleasure is fleeting, but purpose is lasting. If I were rethinking the Declaration of Independence to borrow a line from Brian Little, I'd offer three unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the happiness of pursuit. For more from Trevor, check out his podcast. What Now? I'm actually one of the guests.
You can also hear him in our very first WorkLife season on The Daily Show's Secret to Creativity. ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant, the show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard.
Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Roxanne Hai Lash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers.
Why are you asking me if you make sense?
[00:44:30] Trevor Noah:
I'm just asking you if it makes sense to you.
[00:44:31] Adam Grant:
I'm with you.
[00:44:32] Trevor Noah:
Okay. I like that.
[00:44:33] Adam Grant:
I like it. I'm.
[00:44:34] Trevor Noah:
I'm just making sure that we, you know,
[00:44:35] Adam Grant:
That we're not playing a game of telephone.
[00:44:37] Trevor Noah:
Exactly.
[00:44:38] Adam Grant:
Okay. I answered the call.