How to make the most of your twenties with Meg Jay (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Adam Grant:
Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective. I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking. My guest today is Meg Jay. 


She's a clinical psychologist at the University of Virginia and the world's leading expert on the quarter life crisis. 


[00:02:20] Meg Jay:
I've been doing it 25 years, which I, kind of, can't believe when I say that, but when I went to grad school, there was no such thing as specializing in 20 somethings. There was adult development, but nobody really knew what that was because, you know, people would say, “I thought adults were already developed,” but everything that happens between 20 and a hundred is adult development.

But, I lived in a college town and so I ended up working with a lot of college students and young adults. And, then the more I learned about the adult development lit-literature, I realized this is where all the action is. I love this. 


[00:02:52] Adam Grant:
That, that makes me wonder, like, did you have an awful twenties? 


[00:02:57] Meg Jay:
Um, my twenties were pretty on point in terms of all the things that I write about, been there, done that, survived it. I'm not really writing memoirs. I don't think my twenties would be all that interesting, but working with 20 somethings for 25 years has been really interesting, and I've learned a ton by doing it. 

[00:03:15] Adam Grant:
In my twenties, I was laser focused on my goals, which was productive, but also led to some tunnel vision. So, I appreciate Meg's thoughtfulness about that period of our youth. I am a fan of her TED Talk: Why 30 is not the new 20, and her new book, The Twentysomething Treatment, which explores why young adulthood is so challenging and how we can improve it. 


Is there something that over the course of this conversation, you want me to rethink or our audience to rethink? 


[00:03:46] Meg Jay:
Yeah, I mean, I think I want to rethink how we're talking about and how we're approaching young adult mental health. I think the two most common responses to young adult mental health in the media, there's a lot of trivialization in terms of young adults are struggling because they're snowflakes or privileged, or they have helicopter parents or they're fragile

And, that's really not the case uh, for the majority of 20 somethings. Or, in doctor's offices, we have the approach of pathologizing young adults struggles in young adult life, um, and we pretty quickly moved to diagnoses and medications. And, so I, I would like to rethink both of those ends of the spectrum and talk more about normalizing, looking at context over criticism, development over diagnosis, and think more about skills over pills. 


[00:04:35] Adam Grant:
What, what do you think both of those extremes are getting wrong? 


[00:04:39] Meg Jay:
On the extreme of the trivializing, I think maybe people aren't aware of how challenging it is to be a 20 something in the 21st century. And, uh, your twenties are really the most uncertain years of your life. They're the only time in your life where you're gonna wake up in the morning and you're not gonna know where you're gonna live in five years, or whether someone's gonna love you, or whether you'll be happy or it can pay your bills or who your friends are gonna be. And, that's a lot. The brain doesn't like uncertainty. It perceives it as danger. 


And, so it's, it's not very fun, uh, to be a 20 something even though we, we hear these are supposed to be the best years of our lives. Really the expectations of what our twenties are gonna be is also something to rethink, that 20 somethings here, these are gonna be great years. These are gonna be the best years of your life. 


We actually know from the data. There's a J shaped mental health curve that that dips down from childhood through the teen years. I'm sorry to say it bottoms out in your twenties, but the good news is, is it goes upward from there and life really gets better as it goes across adulthood. So, I think young adults would be well served if they heard more about the actual trajectory of their health and happiness across adulthood, that life's going to get better as they get older, not worse.

Whereas, I think they hear your twenties are gonna be great, and then it's all downhill from there. Um, that sets them up for a pretty rough landing into the twenties. 
Um, and then not realizing that that life's, actually, probably going to get better for them. 


[00:06:05] Adam Grant:
I, I think that with, without the knowledge of that J curve and the on average dip in your twenties, a lot of people might get, sort of, smacked in the face.

[00:06:14] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:06:15] Adam Grant:
And, be unprepared for the harsh reality that that's about to come. 


On the other hand, there's a part of me that thinks it's just an average and are we at risk of creating a self-fulfilling prophecy if we tell people that their twenties are gonna suck? 


[00:06:30] Meg Jay:
Right. You have a good point, because I do talk in the book about the nocebo effect and the power of negative expectations, but I think it's probably all good news in that whatever goes on in your twenties, it's probably going to be better from there.

I've, actually, never met any of the people who say, my twenties were just a breeze. It doesn't mean you're personally going to have mental health struggles, but it is a big shift to move from the sort of structured, predictable, small world problems of school where you can sort of plan everything out and know how you're doing and get an A or get a B to the large world problems of how do you choose where to live and who to love and how to love, and who your friends are and who to be?

If I had to pick one word that I hear from 20 somethings more than any other word in terms of where the struggles come from, it's uncertainty. And, so I think just the uncertainty involved in how do you make those big life decisions? 


How do you take control of your life? What is, what's going my future going to be and how do I make that, you know, turn out in a way that I would feel good about. That's a lot. 


[00:07:37] Adam Grant:
I want to talk about how to navigate that uncertainty and what, what you do about it if you're in your twenties. So, you were called recently by the New York Times, the patron saint of striving youth. 


People looked to their patron saints for cold hard facts, but also for hope. So, tell us what determines the quality of your experience in your twenties. 


[00:08:00] Meg Jay:
I think that's the only context in which I've ever been called to Saint, so I'll take it. I was a 20 something in the nineties, and I think a lot of what 20 somethings face today, it's new to them and they think, oh, this is the hardest it's ever been. 


This is the most uncertain life has ever been. Um, it's, actually, been this way for a while, I would say it's been becoming, sort of, more and more challenging, more and more uncertain. The adult milestones are getting pushed out further and further, which leaves people somewhat adrift for a while. That's been happening. 


I can speak to the, the average curve that the twenties were difficult, but my life has been better with every decade and I wouldn't be out there telling people that they can hope for that and that they might even expect that if I didn't really believe that and had lived that myself. 


[00:08:48] Adam Grant:
Okay, good. So, for, for anyone who doesn't wanna just suffer throughout their twenties and, and wants it to get better sooner, uh, what's, what's your advice? 


[00:08:57] Meg Jay:
Yeah, so people they're dealing with, I wanna know the answers, I wanna know the future, I wanna know all that. And, you really can't have that in your twenties, but what you can do is focus on yourself and gain your own competencies. And, that's, you know, where I talk about skills over pills is not to knock medication, but to say let's focus on skill building. 


The more sure you feel of yourself at work or in friendship or in love or in your own coping, the better you'll be able to manage your own twenties and have life get better sooner rather than later. So, it's really about looking for that certainty and building that certainty on the inside, because it takes a while to really see it come to fruition on the outside. 


[00:09:44] Adam Grant:
Do you think certainty should, actually, be the goal? And, I'm asking this because I think the answer is no.


[00:09:50] Meg Jay:
Right.
[00:09:51] Adam Grant:
And, feel, feel free to push back if, if you disagree.

[00:09:52] Meg Jay:
Oh no. Yeah. No. No. Yeah. 


[00:09:54] Adam Grant:
I, I think about the, the classic research by Antonovsky on sense of coherence that what we're really looking for is not so much certainty as clarity. 


Uh, I, I feel like certainty is a myth. You are never gonna know how the career you chose is gonna play out when you have to make your commitment. You're never gonna know when you decide who to marry or who to choose as a partner, like what's gonna unfold in the coming decades. But, you can get clearer about what the possible paths might look like, and that can lead you toward a sense of coherence, that there's a, a, a strong connection between your values and your aspirations and your daily choices.

And, I guess there's a part of me that thinks it's more palatable to look for clarity and coherence than it is to search for certainty. 


[00:10:41] Meg Jay:
Right. It's never coming. I mean, I think really more of what people experience rather than certainty is they start to feel more settled. I've made some life decisions and they feel good to me. And, I wake up in the morning and I feel like, okay, this is the person I love. This is the city I've chosen. This is the career where I find meaning. 


These are the kids I'm going to have. And, you know, those things take time, that coherence or clarity, if that's what you wanna call it, that takes time to develop. So, people aren't gonna have it in a year or in two years in their twenties, but that's what you work toward is that feeling of these were my choices. I've made them. They feel good to me, and I wake up in the morning and I know that about my life. 


And, of course, I don't know, no one ever knows what might happen tomorrow. 


[00:11:25] Adam Grant:
I remember taking my first social psychology class with Ellen Langer and her saying, with so many important life choices, what you should think about is not making the right decision, but rather making the decision, right? 


[00:11:39] Meg Jay:
That's a great way to put it. 

[00:11:40] Adam Grant:
And, what, what I took away from that was if a decision is hard, it's because there might not be a correct answer.
[00:11:46] Meg Jay:
Right! 


[00:11:47] Adam Grant:
And, there, there are multiple good options, or there are tradeoffs and there are real undesirables associated with every option. And, that means that instead of agonizing over making the correct choice, you should make a choice and then invest your energy in, in trying to make it work out well. 


And, it sounds like you're saying that's a lot of what people figure out over the course of their twenties. 


[00:12:09] Meg Jay:
Absolutely. There aren't right decisions. I don't care how much data you have, you're never gonna have an algorithm. You're never gonna have a formula. But, that also means there's no wrong answer. 


There's just your answer. So, you have to do your best to, like you said, make the decision right and then realize you still have some say in how that turns out. 


[00:12:30] Adam Grant:
It's so interesting to hear you say there's no right answer, but there's also no wrong answer 'cause I had the opposite reaction, which is, when it comes to work or love, the big choices, there's no right answer, but there are definite wrong answers. There's a person you should definitely not marry. There is a job that's going to make you utterly miserable, and screening those out is, actually, a critical part of decision making. 


[00:12:57] Meg Jay:
There may be a wrong answer for you, but you're not gonna be able to put it into a computer and have it shoot out the wrong answer. 


The best you can do is figure out what's the right answer for me.

[00:13:09] Adam Grant:
I think you're a correction societally for the obsession with generational differences and the under appreciation of life stages, which in my read of the research, are far more important than what generation you belong to. 


[00:13:24] Meg Jay:
Absolutely. 
Yeah. 


[00:13:26] Adam Grant:
When I read the work on entitlement and narcissism, for example, it’s pretty clear that 22 year olds of every generation…
[00:13:34] Meg Jay:
Right.
[00:13:35] Adam Grant:
…are more likely to be narcissistic than 32 year olds and 42 year olds.

[00:13:38] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:13:39] Adam Grant:
And, that, kind of, self focus is more a problem of, of age and life experience and development than it is…
[00:13:48] Meg Jay:
Millennials or Gen Z. Yes.

[00:13:49] Adam Grant:
Fucking Millennials. 


Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, I think this is, this is a premise that probably is at the very heart of a lot of the work that you do, and I, I just wondered if you could talk to me a little bit about sort of the generation versus life stage, phase distinction.
[00:14:04] Meg Jay:
I think this is something really important to rethink and to, to talk to people about because we hear it again and again. What is wrong with Millennials? What is wrong with, you know, Gen Z? And, it's, it's actually the point that I was making earlier, which is, it's tough to be a 20 something. It, it has been for quite some time and it will continue to be. That has more to do with developmental stage than generation. 


And, actually when I wrote my first book, uh, which was The Defining Decade, people would say, you're a Millennial expert. And, I said, no, no, I'm not a Millennial expert. I'm a 20 something expert. I, I'm a developmental clinical psychologist. I focus on 20 somethings and, uh, Millennials, there's gonna be a generation coming right behind them and they're not going to be that different. 


They're gonna go through the same stuff and that's where my work is. But, you know, it kinda leads to these headlines, which are Gen Z, the most unhappy generation in history because if we look at it developmentally, 20 somethings on average are less happy than 30 somethings and 40 somethings and 50 somethings. 


It's a developmental thing. It's because it's a very challenging decade. It's not that this generation is worse off or doomed. I don't think it's helpful for young adults to hear that they've graduated into a mental health recession and it's never been this bad before, and now this is what you're stuck with. 


That's honestly just doesn't match the data. The twenties have been a bit of a mental health struggle for the whole 25 years I've been doing this, and they're going to continue to be, because it's the nature of the challenges and young adults trying to meet those challenges with skills that they're only just developing.
It's not about them being snowflakes or narcissistic. Uh, I think that's a really important thing we need to rethink. 


[00:15:49] Adam Grant:
I strongly agree, and it's something I see a lot with my students, the vast majority of whom are in their twenties, both, you know, undergrads and grad students, and I see so many of them in a hurry to try to resolve these questions saying, well, should I get married now so that I've got that worked out? 


[00:16:06] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:16:06] Adam Grant:
I wanna make my 20-year career plan so I know exactly how I'm gonna get from here to that point of stability that I'm striving for and to the level of…

[00:16:13] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:16:14] Adam Grant:
…status and purpose that I'm seeking.
[00:16:16] Meg Jay:
Yep. 


[00:16:17] Adam Grant:
And, I find myself pushing them in those conversations to, to delay a little bit and say, you don't wanna plunge into a decision you might come to regret. You wanna do, you know, some exploration of, you, know, of possibilities and your own values before, you know, before you pre-commit. Right. You do this professionally. Um, talk to me about what these conversations are like in your practice and how you guide people through their twenties. 


[00:16:42] Meg Jay:
The more uncertain the twenties have become, the more people come in saying, I need to lock this down. I wanna get this off my plate. I want this to be done. And, so part of my, hopefully not setting them up with nega-negative expectations, but normalizing saying this is, these are long form projects. This takes a while. 


You're not doing anything wrong. It's going to take 50% of 20 somethings. I feel like they have some sense of purpose by 30. Um, but that's maybe, probably not something you found at 21 or 22. So, a lot of the conversations are about just normalizing, this is uncertain, this is normal, and it's going to go on for a while. 


I, actually, had somebody email me a few weeks ago and they said, I'm positive I wanna get married and I'm positive I wanna have kids. This was a young male by the way, and he said, I want this to happen as soon as possible. So, I replied and I said, you know, that's awesome that you know what you're looking for, but just from a time and, and space continuum point of view, finding a partner, knowing they're the someone you wanna make a life commitment to, and then having three kids, is easily a five or 10 year project.

Even though you know you want it, it's not something that you're going to have for quite some time, and you're gonna have to be comfortable with that uncertainty of not knowing how that's gonna look for a good while. 


[00:18:00] Adam Grant:
This sounds like a, a broader version of what sports psychologists are talking about when they talk about a sampling period where athletes try out a bunch of different sports before they commit to the one that they want to become great in.
It seems like part of what's challenging about being in your twenties is the sampling period is really long and it's also really wide. 


[00:18:22] Meg Jay:
Right. Yeah. So, we know that young adults have on average nine jobs by the age of 35. That's a lot of sampling that goes on. I am sure I had nine different jobs by 35. I might have had nine all at one time at one point in my twenties. 


I do a lot of normalizing, a lot of education, a lot of just correcting what 20 somethings think with what the data is or what, what the facts are. Most college students end up in careers or jobs they didn't know about when they were in college or that didn't even exist. 


[00:18:55] Adam Grant:
What's an example of, kind of, a twenties arc that, that you say, wow, this was really satisfying, really successful. 


I would love to help more 20 somethings follow in these footsteps. 


[00:19:10] Meg Jay:
Many years ago now, I had a, a young adult client who was trying to kind of make her way as a reporter, like an in front, front of the camera reporter. She was having a lot of stress and anxiety around this, and it was really unclear is that because this is new and, you know, it is stressful to be in front of the cameras, she, kind of, kept trying that out in the smaller markets, wasn't sure if she could, you know, sort of, handle that stress, did have some success with it, move to a larger market.

And, then I, I didn't hear from her for quite some time after. But, not too many years later, I was on Good Morning America, I think, and I, I came walking outta the studio after the show was over and this young woman comes out of the booth from behind and said, “Oh, Dr. J, it's so and so,” and we went and had coffee the next day, I think. And, she told me about how she had learned through her own experiences at work that she was in the right field. She wanted to be in media and loved being in news, but being the behind the camera was really better for her. And, now she was a producer and she loved it and was doing great. 


So, when I talk to young adult clients about that, they get it. They understand you've gotta go have some experiences to know which one is gonna be right for me. 


[00:20:23] Adam Grant:
This calls back to the defining decade in some interesting ways. 


[00:20:27] Meg Jay:
Yeah.


[00:20:27] Adam Grant:
You shared a stat to the effect of 80% of our defining moments happen by the time we turn 35. 


[00:20:36] Meg Jay:
Right.


[00:20:37] Adam Grant:
And, I think what you're describing in this kind of career arc is, sort of, taking charge of some of those defining moments. Can I quote you to you? 


[00:20:46] Meg Jay:
You can. I love it. Please do continue. 


[00:20:49] Adam Grant:
Okay, one, one of my favorite Meg Jay lines is “Forget about having an identity crisis and get some identity capital.
 Do something that adds value to who you are. Do something that's an investment in who you might wanna be next.”

[00:21:03] Meg Jay:
Yes. 


[00:21:04] Adam Grant:
What does it mean to build identity capital instead of wallowing in an identity crisis? 


[00:21:08] Meg Jay:
Identity capital is not my concept, James Côté out of Canada, his concept. But, I think there's this sense that your twenties, you're gonna have this crisis and you're gonna be lost, and you're gonna wander the desert and have an epiphany, and then you'll know forever who you're gonna be.
And, it's just not the way that it works. So, a better use of your time would be to do what's called earn identity capital, and that really just means that, that time is your most valuable asset as a 20 something. That's something you have a lot more, more of than than I do. So, it's a matter of using that time wisely.
Choosing jobs or relationships or life experiences or friendships that you're going to learn from and grow from. And, we know that the learning curve in your twenties maps onto your earning curve in your thirties and beyond. And, when I say your, your earning curve, I'm thinking of a lot more than just money. 


That all the learning that you do in your twenties really helps you have, you know, a life of value in your thirties and forties and fifties. 


[00:22:50] Adam Grant:
I wanna go to a lightning round now. What's the worst advice you hear given to 20 somethings?

[00:22:54] Meg Jay:
Don't worry. You have all the time in the world. It'll all work out one day.

[00:23:00] Adam Grant:
Ugh, brutal. Is, is there a piece of advice you wanna replace that with?

[00:23:03] Meg Jay:
That with that life does get, on average, get better as you go, but that's because of what you do. 
That's because of the gains that you make in work and friendship and health and love, and kids and financial stability that you have control over those pieces.

But, it's not just gonna happen because you get older.

[00:23:23] Adam Grant:
What's the biggest mistake you made in your twenties?

[00:23:26] Meg Jay:
The biggest mistake I made in my twenties was not taking my relationship seriously soon enough. Spoiler alert, I'm happily married and I have two children, so I survived. But, I think that I felt like I couldn't, sort of, own what kind of relationship I wanted. I kept hearing everybody was like, oh, people don't do that till their thirties anymore. And, I felt like I needed to finish graduate school before I could really dig in on that. 


And, you know, as I said, things worked out for me, but I was in a bit of a crunch in my thirties. I think in a five year period. I got engaged, I got married, I had two kids. I finished my PhD. I finished my residency. I got licensed. I set up shop in, in Virginia and moved back and forth three times. That was a lot. 


It didn't really need to be like that. I'm not talking about rushing out and marrying somebody that, you know, you're not sure about at 24, so you don't wait too long. I'm just, I, I think I could have given myself a little bit more space there.

[00:24:26] Adam Grant:
What do you think I was like in my twenties?

[00:24:30] Meg Jay:
I would imagine you, sort of, had it all worked out and you did all the steps and you know, one after another. 


And, I would not assume it was easy because I don't usually meet people for whom it is. But, I would imagine that it was all very sort of neat and linear. But, I think I'm imagining that because that's a misconception that we have about successful people. They must have had it all figured out from day one, and they never were lost or struggled.
[00:24:54] Adam Grant:
I think my path was definitely more linear than a lot of people I know, but it had plenty of curbs, lots of backtracking and…

[00:25:05] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:25:06] Adam Grant:
…the squiggly line is definitely a better depiction. I feel like in some ways, being 19 and 20, were a lot harder than later. I, I felt like freshman year of college was like my favorite year ever. 


I loved it. I had all this freedom. I, you know, had all these new friends and fascinating classes and amazing professors, and then sophomore year started and, all of a sudden, I have all these choices I'm supposed to make. I have no idea what I wanna do career wise.

[00:25:34] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:25:36] Adam Grant:
Okay. Back to the lightning round. 


As a clinical psychologist, if you're struggling with mental health, but not in a severe way, how do you approach that with your therapist.

[00:25:48] Meg Jay:
As a therapist, I call myself a pusher, not a puller. I tend to push my clients out into their life experiences of let's get you some new friends. Let's try a different relationship. Let's get you a better job. I guess I would wanna know from a therapist, what growth experiences do you think that I need?

Because I think that's what 20 somethings need more than therapy. If your therapist is the most important person in in your life, they're probably not doing their job. They should be helping you have friends and partners and bosses and better connections with family. 


So, I would be asking a therapist, what do I need to be doing outside of this room?

[00:26:26] Adam Grant:
I love the question, what growth experiences do I need? Love it. It's a bit of a reorientation 'cause I think so much of of the conversations that happen in therapy are, how do I feel better?

[00:26:40] Meg Jay:
Most mental health struggles that 20 somethings have, or what people in the biz call situational. They're because of something like, I don't have a job, or I don't have a job that I like, or I don't have close friends.
My first question to a new client, is in my head and to them, why now? Why are you struggling right now? What has happened in your life in the last month or the last year that's got you where you are? And, let's work on fixing that, not just talking about what happened 10 or 15 years ago, although that can be important too. 


Um, but I also do a lot of here and now work with 20 somethings to figure out what's gone wrong that brought you here right now and what can we do to improve that? Because for the vast majority of anxiety, depression, substance use, suicidality, you name it in the twenties, most of it is temporary, it's situational, and it gets better when people's situations improve or when their coping skills improve. 


[00:27:42] Adam Grant:
What is something about being in your twenties that you've rethought lately?

[00:27:45] Meg Jay:
Uh, many people ask me what's changed for them in 25 years, and without a doubt, the biggest difference between my 20 something years and the current 20 something years is social media and technology. And, I wouldn't say that's changed human development, all those things that we do as humans, we can just do, you know, exponentially more on social media or with our phones.

And, so I think that's a challenge that I didn't live with in my twenties, thank goodness, and that I have, you know, really learned a lot about the impact that it's having on young adults now. 


[00:28:22] Adam Grant:
Is there, um, is there something you used to believe about being a young adult that you no longer believe.

[00:28:28] Meg Jay:
I really do embrace the choose your own adventure path, that it takes all types of people to make up the world and there's not one path to success. And, I think sometimes maybe people read my work and think that I think that people need office jobs and they need to make a lot of money, or they need to have a partner or have kids.

I, I don't think any of those things are necessarily true, um, for you to have a good life or the life that you want. Um, I think it's just really important that people try to figure out what fits who they are and their values and their strengths, um, and, you know, and their weaknesses. 


[00:29:05] Adam Grant:
The last topic I wanted to raise with you, which is parents of 20 somethings. I'm not one yet. I will be in a few years.

[00:29:14] Meg Jay:
Me neither, thank goodness. Yeah.

[00:29:17] Adam Grant:
Yeah. Things to look forward to.

[00:29:18] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:29:19] Adam Grant:
But, but I have to tell you, I've had a lot of interactions with 20 somethings and…

[00:29:22] Meg Jay:
Yeah, sure.

[00:29:23] Adam Grant:
My general sense is that parents are having a very hard time. 


I have, I have a bunch of maybe specific observations about what that looks like, but this is just an anecdote. You've looked at the data and you've also studied, I think, probably the, the, not only the symptoms, but the root causes in a lot of depth. What do you think parents of 20 somethings are getting wrong and can you help them do better?
[00:29:48] Meg Jay:
Yeah, I think, not just parents, but culturally, um, one thing we're getting wrong is that we are panicking and catastrophizing young adult mental health struggles and it's really the same process that, that 20 somethings are doing. They see something uncertain and, and difficult, and they catastrophize and see the worst case scenario and think, oh my god, this is never gonna get better. 


And, I think that parents of 20 somethings are maybe unprepared or their twenties were different or easier, and so they panic and catastrophize and pathologize and they turn to people like me and they want a solution tomorrow. I think that that's a disservice to young adults. Just because you're struggling doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. 


It doesn't mean you have a disorder. It doesn't mean you need medication. It's not helping 20 somethings to panic and pathologize they're struggles.

[00:30:46] Adam Grant:
So, in addition to pathologizing, I am stunned by the number of parents who are controlling and micromanaging. A student comes in and says, um, I'm really excited about three or four possible career paths, and my parents are telling me I cannot do any of them. 


They're forbidding me from doing them. I listen to this and I think, why are parents pressuring kids to choose a career based on their own priorities instead of helping their kids think about their priorities?

[00:31:17] Meg Jay:
I gave a talk somewhere recently and, and someone was, you know, asked, saying, well, as a therapist, you're, you're a pusher, not a pull, but as a parent, what do we do? Be a pusher, not a puller. That, you know, you wanna get your kids out into their lives, having their experiences, learning their own lessons, having their own data points about what are my values and preferences and strengths, rather than trying to, you know, pull people in close and figuring it out for our kids, because you're not them. 


I also see students, clients who are, you know, majoring in computer science because their parents said it would be great and they hate it. And, it's my job to say, well, I mean there's a data point for you. You hate it.

[00:32:00] Adam Grant:
What would you say to parents who are having a hard time landing in that place?

[00:32:06] Meg Jay:
As tough as it is to see that, you know, some lessons are gonna be learned the hard ways, that's just a part of life that we've all, I've learned lessons the hard way. I am sure you have too, Adam, and some of them were my most valuable lessons. And, so we can't really protect our kids from that or know really what's the best life for them. That's something that they have to learn through experience. 


[00:32:28] Adam Grant:
Protecting our kids speaks to the, the other category of, of problem parent behaviors with adult children that I, I see a lot of, which is, I think there's a version of it that's sometimes called snowplow parenting. They're failing to realize that their job is to prepare, prepare their kids for the path, not clear the path for their kids. 


[00:32:48] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:32:48] Adam Grant:
And, some of the lengths I've seen parents go to are deeply disconcerting. So, I have gotten emails from parents lobbying on behalf of their children that I should let them into my class. It was a, an anonymous double-blind selection process.

[00:33:06] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:33:08] Adam Grant:
I, actually, got an email from a parent recent, recently saying my 28-year-old, uh, is struggling from a career perspective. 


I've read some of your books. I've listened to your podcast. Will you please talk to him? First of all, I, I have no interest in having the conversation if a kid can't take the initiative…

[00:33:26] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:33:26] Adam Grant:
…to reach out personally.

[00:33:27] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:33:27] Adam Grant:
But, also, why are you not as a parent saying, gee, maybe, maybe you should have the initiative and the independence to do the outreach on your own. 


[00:33:36] Meg Jay:
Right.

[00:33:36] Adam Grant:
What are parents thinking and can you help me?

[00:33:38] Meg Jay:
Yeah.

[00:33:39] Adam Grant:
Can you help them?

[00:33:40] Meg Jay:
Uh, I can help them. Um, that's what writing books is about because, you know, unfortunately therapy is not a very scalable profession. Good therapy is not affordable or accessible for most people. So, I write books, but I do get a lot of emails from parents saying, my kid is struggling. 


Can you help them? You're 20 something has to be interested in this, not just you. Whether, whether they're seeing me or someone else, or making a change. They're really the ones who need to want this. There's a psychology joke of how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? And, the answer is just one, but the light bulb has to want to change. 


I currently have some clients who are really struggling to adapt to first jobs and, sort of, first apartments because up until now their parents have done most of that for them. So, they don't know how to go to the grocery store. They don't know how to cook. They had a lot of, sort of, accommodating and scaffolding, which maybe they needed for a time, but it probably should have been stepped back a bit and now it's just sort of disappeared because there aren't tutors and accommodations at work. 


And, so they're, you know, having a pretty steep and painful learning curve.

[00:34:52] Adam Grant:
Yeah, last time I checked, scaffolding is supposed to be removed so that the building can stand on its own.

[00:34:57] Meg Jay:
Right, right.

[00:34:59] Adam Grant:
My jaw dropped when, when a parent confessed to me recently that she was calling her daughter to make sure she woke up for work. 


[00:35:14] Meg Jay:
So, I would be curious about why she felt she needed to do that and how the 20 something could start to learn to do that on her own.

[00:35:20] Adam Grant:
Curiosity is, uh, is not the first reaction I have, I'll say.

[00:35:24] Meg Jay:
Well see now, curiosity is really my first reaction to almost everything that a client says to me. It's a good place to start of, well, what, why now? 


Or, where did that come from? Or when did that start? Or, why do you feel like you need to do that?

[00:35:40] Adam Grant:
I wanted to remove this entire mental model of parenting and replace it with a different one. There's a major value, completely overlooked, which is you need to teach your kids to be able to pursue their goals themselves. 


[00:35:53] Meg Jay:
Right. In terms of mental health, that is what actually makes people happier and healthier in their twenties. It's that feeling of competence and confidence and having your successes and having your wins at work or love or friendship or life. That's, actually, what's going to make people feel better.

[00:36:12] Adam Grant:
Well, this is a big part of what you, you do for us, Meg, is you enable all of us to feel a little bit more competent, uh, in the, the goals that we're pursuing, particularly as we go through this transition from, uh, being dependent to being independent. 
And, uh, I'm grateful for your work and for your insight.

[00:36:31] Meg Jay:
Thank you. It's a pleasure.

[00:36:36] Adam Grant:
My key takeaway is that although we can't control everything that happens in our twenties, we can do a better job managing expectations about them. We shouldn't anticipate a decade of bliss. We should aim for a decade of growth. 


ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. This show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard.

Our producers are Hannah Kingsley-Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Allison Leyton-Brown.

Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winik, Samiah Adams, Michelle Quint, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, and Whitney Pennington Rodgers. 


I think I would tell anyone not to marry a psychopath.

[00:37:34] Meg Jay:
Sure. Yeah. Uh, people don't need to come to me for that. They don't, they're not usually coming in and saying, I can't decide if I should marry a psychopath.

[00:37:40] Adam Grant:
Unless they don't realize they're a psychopath. That is another conversation.

[00:37:43] Meg Jay:
Well, right. Then it’s tough to, tough to be sure.