Why your brain is an unreliable narrator (w/ Aparna Nancherla) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Sometimes if I think too hard about this podcast, my head starts to spin. Like, who am I to host this show, or to host any show for that matter? Why on earth would I think that people should listen to me ask questions about being a better human and, and why would these successful, intelligent guests agree to an interview?

It is easy to start feeling like this whole thing is a fraud, and I'm about to be found out and kicked out and that I'll never work again. I wanna say, “But of course that's not the case. That's like what would make sense to say here. But of course that's not the case.” But if I'm being honest, I don't know that I really believe that that's not the case.

Sometimes I really wonder. I hope that these feelings of insecurity are wrong and inaccurate, but I can't say that I know for sure, and I think that almost all of us have those doubts sometimes where we question ourselves and feel like we're faking it. But for some people, those feelings can be constant, intense and powerful: impostor syndrome.

Today's guest, Aparna Nancherla, writes about her own experiences with impostor syndrome and other mental health challenges in her book Unreliable Narrator, which comes out September 19th. Amy Poehler described Aparna’s book as a deeply honest and funny look at how exhausting it can be to live a human life. And here's a clip from the audio book, courtesy of Penguin Random House Audio.

[00:01:22] Aparna Nancherla:
I wanted to write a book about impostor syndrome because it's an identity I've embraced without question my entire life. Like being a Leo. I’m right on the cusp, but it's the more fun flamboyant one. My pragmatic Virgo heart unenthusiastically understands. Or having brown eyes. I used to think they were black. You know, like a meerkat’s? But there's no wiggle room on this one, as fun as a wiggle room sounds.

My scammer-identifying roots go way back. On my mother's telling, I was born with jaundice and suctioned out via vacuum, so I showed up unwillingly with a cone head and yellow eyes, perfectly styled for my National Enquirer cover photo shoot. Even then I arrived in the manner of someone who wants everybody else to understand I wasn't thrilled about my whole deal either.

[00:02:15] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna have a lot more from Aparna, an undeniably successful amount of conversation, in just a moment. But first, a few podcast ads.

[BREAK]

[00:02:30] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. On today's episode, we're talking about impostor syndrome with Aparna Nancherla.

[00:02:37] Aparna Nancherla:
Hi there, I am Aparna Nancherla. I'm a comedian and the author of Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Impostor Syndrome.

[00:02:46] Chris Duffy:
Aparna, you wrote a book about impostor syndrome, but what is impostor syndrome?

[00:02:51] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes. So, impostor syndrome, as I learned in writing the book, uh, the technical definition is the feeling that you are just a fraud or just undeserving of any success or things you've accomplished, and it's all due to kind of luck or chance and not any skill you possess, and you kind of this just persistent feeling that you're gonna be found out by, you know, your peers or those around you for not having the capability that they think you do.

[00:03:23] Chris Duffy:
And you talk about in the book how it's caused some, like ,very real issues and mental struggles for you. It, it’s also a term that I think a lot of people use kind of very casually.

[00:03:36] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes.

[00:03:36] Chris Duffy:
Like, “Oh, I have impostor syndrome.” So why do you think that is?

[00:03:40] Aparna Nancherla:
I mean, I think that goes along with kind of a lot of things, like kind of therapy speak has become increasingly, uh, for lack of a better word, gentrified in our culture in that they just have become more shorthand for, for a bigger like umbrella things. Like if you're feeling sad, you're like, “Oh, I'm depressed today,” or something. You know, like it's just become a little diluted. And I think, so, impostor syndrome has kind of, I think, become a, an umbrella term for anything where you kind of feel out of place maybe, or like you don't fit in or people are undervaluing you.

And I think it is targeted towards, you know, women and minorities. So in that sense, maybe it's like a term that can cover a lot of feelings of maybe not quite knowing how you fit in.

[00:04:32] Chris Duffy:
And you talk about in the book a joke that you love from the comedian Josh Rabinowitz about how cool people have gentrified the word awkward.

[00:04:39] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes. Yes.

[00:04:40] Chris Duffy:
So that like actual awkward people like him no longer have something to use 'cause like, they call things awkward that are not awkward at all.

[00:04:47] Aparna Nancherla:
He put it, like, beautifully, ’cause I, I do think these words get co-opted and then, I mean, I think it's very much a good thing that certain terms get pulled into the mainstream in terms of just being able to have, you know, more open conversations about mental illness and, and feelings that are typically associated with, like, shame or things we don't want to air in public.

But yeah, I do think the other, the flip side of that is just once you bring something into, like, a broader spectrum, then the term itself becomes a little bit distorted from the original meaning like it, like now if you say impostor syndrome, it might not always mean the technical definition when people are using it.

[00:05:29] Chris Duffy:
I really love the book. I think it's so good. You walk a kind of a really difficult line in the book, which is you write about some really serious stuff and you talk about it without undercutting its seriousness, but then you also have moments of pure silliness, and you talk about the kind of meta-ness of writing a book about feeling like you're an impostor, which is a thing that is a role that normally an expert would do. Right? To like write it in—

[00:05:58] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes.

[00:05:58] Chris Duffy:
And so in some ways you're like, of course you are an expert in this and you have so many things to say, but there's these feelings that get brought up by the very nature of writing a book about it that make you feel that impostor syndrome more acutely And you talk about that in the book.

[00:06:11] Aparna Nancherla:
I, like my full-time job as a comedian and, like, not taking things seriously or framing things in a sillier or more absurd way. But then I also am a, have an undergrad psych major, and I think I do have like a very, a layman's background in, in doing a little bit of research and like reading an article and letting that inform me. So I think I, I really leaned into any, you know, tiny background I have in the, like, scientific inquiry process and was like, “I'm gonna figure this out.”

[00:06:48] Chris Duffy:
So when you think about, like, the way that impostor syndrome intersects with your life and your work as a standup, um, you talk about in the book a lot of different places, and one of them is how you look and your sense about your appearance and fitting in and you write about how you, you haven't really felt like you conformed. You used to have a joke that you used to start sets with that was something along the lines of like, “I know I'm also surprised that I'm a comedian.”

[00:07:12] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is just the, you know, luck or privilege of having gotten to do this as a career and kind of made a little bit more of a name for myself.

But then I think on the other hand, I was just like, “I don’t… I’m a little bit also doing myself a disservice by being like, yeah?” I also am like, “What the heck am I doing here?” You know, like it is a way of kind of front and center airing your impostor syndrome out loud. But then I was like, am I in a way kind of setting the audience up to be like, “Prove yourself,” in a, in a way that I don't need to be?

[00:07:56] Chris Duffy:
It's a joke that worked for you with audiences? Worked in the sense that they laughed.

[00:08:01] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes. Yeah.

[00:08:01] Chris Duffy:
But that like if, if I was to walk out on stage and say that joke, it wouldn't have worked because I think people wouldn't have been… Like, they would've been like, “Why are we surprised that you're a comedian? You look exactly like 900% of comedians.” Like, that's not the thing. And so it is interesting to think in, in the chapter about your appearance, how you'd felt like you didn't conform to people's ideas, which often were like, straight, heterosexual white.

[00:08:28] Aparna Nancherla:
It, it did feel like a joke about external identity and, and stuff that you, you know, you would know immediately upon physically seeing me. But there also, I think there's also something about my personality or how I present in terms of like, you know, not, not being like this loud, like, boisterous, maybe certain type of comedian energy that I was also kind of commenting on and saying that. So I, I have thought in the past like, “Oh, I wonder if I was like my identity. But you know, maybe a more extroverted, like gregarious, bubbly kind of person. Would that joke have worked as well?” Like sometimes I think it's like, yeah, more than just the external factors too.

[00:09:09] Chris Duffy:
Have you come up with some new way of explaining that sense of like, “Maybe I don't always feel like I'm supposed to be here,” but that feels more, um, cohesive to who you are as a, as a whole?

[00:09:20] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. I mean, I have a joke I do now where I'm like, a lot of comedians like to break the fourth wall where they kind of like really get with the audience and I, I kind of pre-established that I’m, like, pretty uncomfortable with the audience leading up to the joke I say, which is that I like, I'm actually working on breaking the fifth wall, which is just that I abruptly stop talking and go home.

So like, I like, I sort of frame that, I'm like, “Yeah, I have a lot of, you know, ambivalence about being here too.” And, and in that way like commenting not only on like if they feel weird that I'm a comedian, but I'm like, I also am like, “What is this?” Like, this is so weird in a way that's more, yeah, personal to me.

[00:10:07] Chris Duffy:
So, if someone's listening and they're not a comedian, but they are dealing with these feelings of, like, being a fraud and really struggling with like the sense of belonging, what are some things that you found in your research or in your own life that they can do to help themselves to deal with impostor syndrome?

[00:10:23] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah, I mean, I, I, one big thing for me is just, like, talking about it with other people. Like I know that's probably, uh, well-trod advice in a lot of areas, but I do think, uh, with a lot of feelings around impostor syndrome, whether that's shame or like doubting yourself, like it is, you kind of can create a vacuum where you're just like so convinced of your own incompetence, you just start, like, seeking evidence of it, and it becomes a little bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So I think the more you can get out of your head and like talk to other people and realize that a lot of people are either experiencing the same feelings or don't feel that way about you. It can be really helpful, like reminders or just reframing, uh, of your own perspective. And, you know, therapy is always a great thing. I also think now impostor syndrome has been like, there's been more pushback against it. I think the term has proliferated in terms of just its usage and the way it's marketed as like some, like the newest thing you can, like, fix about yourself. And, and I do think some of it maybe is more just, like, an institution not doing enough to like support who's there and, like, people who might not conform to who's been there in the past. So, so also remembering it might not just be an individual level problem at all is like real, really important in terms of like, more systemic change.

[00:11:54] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. You talk in the book, you have this moment where you're talking about being on a panel show basically, where you're just chatting, you're not actually doing—

[00:12:00] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:12:01] Chris Duffy:
Um, standup and you mention struggling with impostor syndrome, and then one of the hosts of the show just kind of lists off all of the reasons why you are a successful performer and comedian, and it, that it kind of blows your mind in a way.

[00:12:18] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah, I mean, uh, it, I would say the experience in the moment was horrifying. Like if someone just like reads your resume out loud, uh, during an interview, it is kind of excruciating, though I'm sure there is, like, a personality type out there that would love that, but not me. But yeah, I think it was like if you are having like an actual debate with someone about your, you know, “Is Aparna an impostor or not?” And then they, their side presents like, “Well, you've done this and this and this and this,” it is like, uh, it does feel like my brain's rebuttal would be like, “Yeah, but she still sucks.” You know, like, like it doesn't, it's quite not as strong an argument like out outside sometimes as it is in, in the confines of your brain.

[00:13:07] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. I think about this a lot in the sense that like, even though I know it, it's hard to believe it.

[00:13:13] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes.

[00:13:13] Chris Duffy:
That it's so easy to see other people more accurately than it is to see myself. Like when I see a friend, I'm like, “Ugh, the fact that you got rejected from one thing, that doesn't mean anything. You're gonna be successful.”

[00:13:23] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. Totally.

[00:13:254] Chris Duffy:
And then when it's me, I’m like, “They finally found me out.” All the rejections from here on out, there never will be another acceptance. And, like, that feels real internally. Even though I know when I talk to a friend who's going through that, I'm like, “Of course that's not what that means.”

[00:13:38] Aparna Nancherla:
I think it's just 'cause, uh, the way we relate to ourselves is so intuitive and like instinctive that we never think that, like, you know, some impulse we have on how we read ourselves could ever be, like, incorrect or distorted. 'Cause we're like, “But it feels so real.” Or it feels like beyond the intellectual, like rational side of things.

[00:14:04] Chris Duffy:
Huh. You also talk in the book about this idea of a failure resume.

[00:14:08] Aparna Nancherla:
Um, yes.

[00:14:08] Chris Duffy:
And you write one, can you explain that?

[00:14:10] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah, so I did this failure resume. I actually had this idea, I was like, “What if I just make a resume of all the ways that I've like failed, but kind of like brag about in the way a resume does?” But then I looked it up on the internet, and of course someone had already done it before, um, in the, as with everything, but it was like in more in the academic sphere. Like someone had written a CV of like, you know, all the research grants they didn't get and all the, yeah, all the, their failures as a scientist.

And so I was like, “Well, I guess I'm in a different field. I can do it and it'll be different enough.” And the funny thing is I cite the person who had done it previously in the science world, and then I listened to a podcast recently and someone cited the failure CV and it was someone else who did it. So I feel like it just, the, there's like become now a meta level of, like, everyone kind of doing this failure CV, but then maybe not crediting other people for it, which it, it just creates a whole ‘nother level of failure. Um…

[00:15:17] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. To have failed at doing it. “I failed at doing the failure CV properly” is a really great way to start your failure CV or failure resume.

[00:15:24] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes. Yes. Yeah. But then, uh, it's funny 'cause with the person, I guess who originally did it, who I didn't even know about, they said it was like, of all the things they had done in their career, that was the thing that got the most traction, which was just like, a funny, a funny thing to realize that people… 'Cause I in, you know, in writing the book, I did a bunch of research on failure and, like, how it impacts us and how we internalize it. And it is like, we, you know, when we fail, it is so threatening to our ego that we do kind of shut down and, and it does kind of impact our performance.

But if we hear about other people's failures or, like, learn from their mistakes, we actually take in quite a lot and it, like, helps us quite a bit. So it's almost like an act of altruism to share your failures 'cause you're like helping other people, maybe even more than yourself.

[00:16:20] Chris Duffy:
So is that why you did the failure CV for yourself?

[00:16:24] Aparna Nancherla:
I did it for myself. 'cause I also was just like, I, I think, uh, there's some rejections I've had in the past that I really like, felt like they really stuck with me in terms of like, “Oh, this really proves that you don't belong.” And I was like, “What if I just tell everyone about them?” Like, I don't know if that'll make them less triggering to me, but at least then they won't be secrets. So I think that's kind of where the seeds started. Once I wrote them down, I was kind of like, “Oh yeah, who cares?”

[00:16:56] Chris Duffy:
One of the interesting parts of a failure resume to me is that when I started to even think about what I would put down, I realized that the list was so kind of impossibly long.

[00:17:07] Aparna Nancherla:
I know, I know.

[00:17:07] Chris Duffy:
But, but that actually made me realize like, oh, these things don't matter. Right? Like, like, you can get rejected a hundred times before you get one job.

[00:17:15] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. And I think the reason they stick with us is because we, maybe in some cases, are like so convinced of like, “If I got this, like my life would then go this way. And I would be on this path.” And, and I also try to remind myself when I have gotten to things, that doesn't happen. Like I'm the same person with the same, like, doubts going into that job, and I’m, like, scared about it or scared again that they're gonna find out I don't deserve to be there. So it's like, I guess as I've gotten older, I just remember that, like, getting the thing is not gonna necessarily, like, fix everything or even be what you wanted in the first place.

[00:17:57] Chris Duffy:
Something that I have found really changes goals for me and makes them feel more attainable is to focus on what's in my control rather than what is out of my control, which is often getting picked. Right? So like if I say like, I'm gonna get a new job.

[00:18:16] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:18:16] Chris Duffy:
That’s not actually totally in my control, but if I'm gonna apply to a new job that actually is in my control. And so I’ve—

[00:18:24] Aparna Nanchera:
yeah.

[00:18:24] Chris Duffy:
Started at the beginning of the year when I, if I make like a list of goals for the year, I, I almost always include rejections.

[00:18:29] Aparna Nancherla:
Oh wow.

[00:18:29] Chris Duffy:
So, like on my list right now for me personally is like, I'm gonna get 10 big rejections from places where that publish articles. Like I'm gonna submit articles to big places.

[00:18:42] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:18:42] Chris Duffy:
And they're gonna reject me, but if I get 10 rejections, that'll mean that I at least tried 10 times.

[00:18:46] Aparna Nancherla:
Right. If I ever get my act together enough to make a list of goals, I'm gonna do that.

[00:18:53] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Well your first one can be, your first goal would be fail at making a list of goals and then you could check that one off.

[00:18:58] Aparna Nancherla:
But that's so smart. 'Cause it's true. There's like, there are definitely going to be rejections. So to, to kind of even anticipate them is so smart.

[00:19:08] Chris Duffy:
I have the feeling of like, if someone wasn't a fraud, they would be getting approached all the time. They wouldn't have to reach out. People would say like, “Will you do this exciting thing?”

[00:19:15] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes.

[00:19:16] Chris Duffy:
Whereas I'm like, begging, “Will you please let me do this thing? Like, will you let me write for you? Will you let me perform on your show? Will you let me do these things?”

[00:19:23] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes.

[00:19:23] Chris Duffy:
And I, the narrative I have in my head, which I know is not true, is that like, that is the sign that you're a fraud. That like, if you were real, they, they would just ask you. You wouldn't have to ask them. And so if I flip it around and I'm like, “Well, I'm gonna just embrace that a little bit and I'm just gonna get rejected from the things that a non fraud would, would have gotten offered…”

[00:19:41] Aparna Nancherla:
Ah, got it. Yeah. And I think sometimes societally there, we are so, uh, enraptured by the idea of like, success after success, or just the person who just keeps winning or, and I think it does create this idea that there's some people that are just, like, chosen. You know, like they're undeniable or they like worked harder than the next person.

And I don't, I think there is so much randomness and chance that's always involved and that we don't fully acknowledge the myth of the kind of like, “They did it all themselves” or like, “They pushed a little harder than the next person.” Like we just, I think, love that idea, especially as Americans, and I think it just doesn't account for what it is to actually like live a human life.

[00:20:32] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick a break here because that is how we live the podcast life, but we will be right back after this with more from Aparna.

[BREAK]

[00:20:48] Aparna Nancherla:
Fast forward four decades, and on the heels of moderate success as a comedian, I still only rarely accept I've accomplished anything or that I ever could again. I’m relieved. I don't consider my continual breathing itself a fluke. Eh, my lungs got lucky. There was an extra opening for oxygen intake. I'm aware that my self-image is distorted, but does it matter if I fully buy into it? Hello, fringe religions and small batch cults. Sometimes it's almost like my impostor syndrome is the majority of me and the rest is my shadow.

[00:21:24] Chris Duffy:
That was a clip from Aparna Nancherla’s audiobook, Unreliable Narrator, and as she discusses a lot in the book, even though Aparna has had a ton of documented career success, it doesn't always feel like that internally.

So Aparna, something that I've always really admired about you is that rather than waiting for gatekeepers or to be selected as the featured comic at a club or something like that, you've, you've built this career on your own terms, often outside of the traditional standup comedy world, right? By using the internet or by performing in places that aren't comedy clubs. And I think that's really wonderful that you’ve, like, blazed your own trail.

[00:22:00] Aparna Nancherla:
You know, I didn't quite feel like I fit what they wanted or were looking for. So I think I tended to, when I was coming up, you know, lean towards spaces that were kind of outside of that model. And I think I was lucky in that, you know, the internet kind of exploded, uh, as my comedy career progressed and, and you know, there were all these platforms where you could put up content, and I feel like I benefited from, like, early days of Twitter where I could, like, put a bunch of my jokes online and, and be, you know, noticed that way. And so I do think as I chose these sort of alternate venues, there became more opportunities.

So I again, got a little lucky in that sense, but I decided, like, that model wasn't gonna work for me, or I just, like, didn't really understand the terms and how I could conform to them. So I, I was like, well, I guess I'll just do it a little differently and see what happens.

[00:23:03] Chris Duffy:
Well, I think that the reason I bring it up is 'cause it feels connected to impostor syndrome 'cause it's like if you're listening, whatever your version of the comedy club is, right? Like maybe it's like, oh, I'm supposed to go to this specific type of academic institution, or I'm supposed to work at this prestigious company, or I'm supposed to have this type of house or this type of partner. You know, whatever the box is that you're supposed to fit in. There's this sense where if the, if you don't fit into that box or that box isn't working for you, or you can't get in for any reason—

[00:23:35] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:23:35] Chris Duffy:
—that then like, well, there's no way to have success, and so how do you, in that moment be like, “I'm gonna just kind of do my own thing and it's gonna, it's gonna be okay.” Like what do you tell yourself?

[00:23:48] Aparna Nancherla:
I realized for me, like certain comedy show environments, like certain types of clubs and stuff, they just, like, made me feel bad more than good. Like, I think you have to at some point just be able to take those risks and, and be okay with knowing that it might, you know, in the short term or maybe even, like, in the foreseeable future, um, not necessarily be a, like, assured great decision or, like, the right decision, um, but know that it kind of fits what your intuition is telling you.

[00:24:23] Chris Duffy:
Well, I feel compelled to do this because we're talking about impostor syndrome and you wrote a book about impostor syndrome to just tell you that you're doing a really great job right now, and this is a great interview. And, uh, you are giving the advice that a, uh, wise and uh, established expert would give, which is who you are. So if you're not feeling that it is actually true and happening from the outside, just so you know internally.

[00:24:44] Aparna Nancherla:
Oh, no.

[00:24:47] Chris Duffy:
The “Oh, no”, that's not what you wanted to hear, huh?

[00:24:51] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah, I'm so bad. I'm still, like, practicing as a human, like learning to take a compliment or be, like, praised, uh, in sort of any kind of public format. I'm just like, “Well, okay. I guess you can say that, like.” But uh, no thank you. That's very nice.

[00:25:10] Chris Duffy:
It'd be hilarious if you just ended this interview now; you're like, “That's it. I'm out.” Walk out of the interview.

[00:25:14] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. The, like, interviewee walks out due to excessive praise.

[00:25:20] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Was offended by being complimented. Walked out. This interview's over. You can't treat me like that. Um, so there's some really serious parts of your book, obviously, but there's also some really funny parts where you talk about, like, ways that you've dealt with the idea of, um, impostor syndrome and like the feeling that you're the only one who is making it up and is faking your way through it. And one that made me laugh a lot is you play a party game where when you're at a party, you try and drop a word that you made up and see if anyone will even say anything about it.

[00:25:52] Aparna Nancherla:
I haven't done this as of recent as much, but sometimes I'll just like slip in a word that I kind of made up that it's not, like, it can't sound too silly, but it, you know, it sounds like SAT-word adjacent or something.

And, and then I just see if anyone kind of like asks, like, “Oh, what does that mean? Or, or is that a word?” Or, and you know, no one ever challenges it. I think they're either like, afraid to seem dumb or, yeah.

They're like, “Oh, I guess everyone else knows what this word means, so I'm not gonna say anything.” And I've, I've been that person, you know, on the other side of things where everyone’s, like, talking about a movie I haven't seen.

And I just am like, “Oh yeah, that movie's great.” You know, and fully don't know what anyone is talking about. So I think it is a little just that micro social experiment of how we all are just trying to like, keep up with everyone else.

[00:26:45] Chris Duffy:
Can you help us generate a few right now?

[00:26:47] Aparna Nancherla:
Oh.

[00:26:47] Chris Duffy:
So that you know people if, if they're struggling to come up with their own word, like what are some good fake words that sound real, that people can just like toss into conversation there?

[00:26:56] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. I think the one in the book is fernicious.

[00:26:58] Chris Duffy:
Fernicious, yes. It's a very fernicious exercise. And fernicious is great.

[00:27:02] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. It can't be like too silly. 'Cause like if I try to think of one right now, they're gonna be like, “Too silly.” Like I was thinking of like, um, bradicide.

[00:27:11] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, that feels, again, actually, I believe a hundred percent. That is the real act of killing a Brad. Yeah, I was thinking of like plungent.

[00:27:18] Aparna Nancherla:
Oh, plungent's great. There's also words that are just created all the time by the media, you know, with—

[00:27:24] Chris Duffy:
Uh-huh

[00:27:25] Aparna Nancherla:
Or like slacktivism, or like, there's always words being generated by the internet, like every second. So you're just like, maybe people are also now just like, “Oh, that's probably a word I just didn't read the latest, like, you know, Twitter storm,” or whatever it is. Yeah.

[00:27:42] Chris Duffy:
Uh-huh. A way that this comes up for me a lot is I've read a word, but I've never heard it said out loud.

[00:27:46] Aparna Nancherla:
Ah, yeah.

[00:27:47] Chris Duffy:
And then I'm like, "Oh, maybe that's the thing.” Like I remember being 100% sure, thousand percent sure that M A C A B R E was pronounced mack-a-bray. And then I heard some say macabre, and I was like, “Muck-cob, what is muck-cob?”

[00:28:03] Aparna Nancherla:
I remember I had a friend, no, I can't remember who it was, but she had always pronounced misled, “my-sulled”.

[00:28:15] Chris Duffy:
Uh, that's really good.

[00:28:17] Aparna Nancherla:
I don't know why. I was like, what? Like how could you? And she was just like, “I don't know. That's how I read it.”

[00:28:23] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Yeah. I knew someone from my high school who was like, if not the top of the class, like extremely close to the top of the class.

[00:28:30] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:28:30] Chris Duffy:
Very well read. And he was positive that the word prima donna was p r e dash Madonna, and he thought it was like, it meant like you're a big diva because it's like before Madonna. Like he had this whole explanation in his head for why it was like, “Oh yeah, she's a pre-Madonna. She's before Madonna.” And then when he learned that it was not that he was truly shocked.

[00:28:52] Aparna Nancherla:
Wow. I kinda want that word to exist though, as he imagined it.

[00:28:58] Chris Duffy:
Uh-huh.

[00:28:58] Aparna Nancherla:
Like, it feels like a very, um, incisive way to talk about pop history.

[00:29:06] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. But you know, it all goes back to this idea of like, we're all in some ways trying to like look around and see, “Hey, does everyone else know what's going on here?”

[00:29:16] Aparna Nancherla:
Totally.

[00:29:16] Chris Duffy:
“Do I fit in? Have I been saying this thing wrong the whole time? Have I been acting wrong? Have I been, like, living my whole life wrong?” Um, to pivot a little bit here and to talk about something significantly more serious, I think that, at least for me, when I first think about the concept of impostor syndrome, it mostly registers to me as being like professional success or like, I don't belong in this.

[00:29:41] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:29:41] Chris Duffy:
But I think you make a really compelling case in the book that that sense of being a fraud or of not belonging or of, you know, having somehow faked your way that it, it's not just professional, it can be about, you know, our body image. It can also be about illness. Um, you, you know, you have a chapter where you talk about this sense of dealing with really acute mental illness, but also having this weird feeling of like, “Oh, I'm not really a depressed person.” Like I don't deserve to use the title of having depression because this isn't how a quote-unquote “depressed person” would behave, or this isn't how they would feel.

[00:30:20] Aparna Nancherla:
The murky thing about like yeah, especially mental illness, it’s like everyone, you, you know, there are things like a, a constellation of terms that everyone might associate with like depression or anxiety or like bipolar disorder, like schizophrenia.

But I, I do feel like everyone's experience of them on an individual level can still vary so much that it, it can be hard to, to know like if you are kind of completely fits the model of like what it's supposed to look like. So I think the tricky thing, especially with having like a anxious depressive brain is you're already, like, prone to kind of doubting yourself or undervaluing yourself or thinking like your thoughts are maybe not as, uh, you know, valid as compared to other people’s.

So then, to then question your own mental illness kind of feels like, of course you would. But, but it is, yeah, it’s, it is interesting to me that like the scales of depression in our society, it's like you have to kind of be the person who can't get outta bed to be considered like an actual depressed person. Whereas I feel like a lot of my depression has been me living a life, but just like having a really hard time internally for a lot of it.

[00:31:43] Chris Duffy:
There's this interesting kind of paradox where you talk about, like, on the one hand you have to trust your own emotions.

[00:31:50] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:31:50] Chris Duffy:
And your own thoughts. But on the other hand, when you are in a really bad mental space, you have to question those thoughts too. To be like, “What my brain is telling me about myself isn't true.”

[00:32:04] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah.

[00:32:04] Chris Duffy:
So you both have to like push back and believe, and that's gonna be a really difficult balance to strike.

[00:32:09] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah, and I think especially with things like depression or anxiety, it's like you, just as a human, your moods are gonna fluctuate. So it's like, even if you're a well-balanced, like healthy person, you're gonna have days where you feel a little more down compared to, you know, another day where you're feeling a little more upbeat.

Like sometimes when I, you know, have had my meds working and things are pretty stable and like I, I feel like I'm able to function pretty well, then if I suddenly have a day where I'm feeling down, I, instead of just being like, “Oh, you're just having like a day where you're a little bit in the blues,” like I'm just like, “Oh my God, is the depression coming back?” Like it does make you question yourself sometimes a little more internally. And I think, yeah, that leads back to those self-doubt feelings.

[00:32:55] Chris Duffy:
What kind of progress have you made on your own impostor syndrome over the course of this book? And also just, you know, the years that you, between when you started it and now.

[00:33:05] Aparna Nancherla:
Yeah. I mean, I, I wouldn't say it's gone or fixed, but I, I do think I've just come to understand it more as a part of myself rather than all of myself and, and kind of, it has its own role of, of what it wants to play in terms of like, I think maybe keeping me small or like trying to make sure I stack up with everyone else is a very human, you know, desire to just, like, fit in and know what everyone else is doing.

So I just try to remember that it, it is coming from, like, a healthier self preserving place, and then it just, you know, is a bit of a, like, control freak or like a micromanager in that it wants to take over everything and be like, actually you don't know what you're doing and you should really, like, go away, or whatever it is. Like, I, I try to remember it is like a piece of me, but it, it sometimes has some, like, ideas that maybe aren't great.

[00:34:03] Chris Duffy:
I feel like the title of your book is the perfect summary of that, right? It's an unreliable narrator.

[00:34:07] Aparna Nancherla:
Yes. Yeah.

[00:34:08] Chris Duffy:
Yes. Well, I, I genuinely felt like this was such a helpful book and so funny and really meaningful and, um, I know that people are gonna really get a lot from it. So, so it's really, it's fantastic.

[00:34:21] Aparna Nancherla:
Oh, thanks Chris.

[00:34:22] Chris Duffy:
Well, Aparna, it’s been, uh, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for doing this. It's been great talking to you.

[00:34:27] Aparna Nancherla:
Thanks for having me. Thanks for reading the book.

[00:34:33] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Aparna Nancherla. Her book, Unreliable Narrator: Me, Myself, and Impostor syndrome is available for pre-order now. Special thanks to Penguin Random House Audio for the clips from Aparna’s audiobook.

I am your host Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and upcoming live shows at ChrisDuffyComedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED Side by Daniela Balarezo, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and BanBan Cheng. A team so impressive that even when I doubt myself, I never doubt them.

Every episode of our show is professionally fact-checked, and you can trust that that means today you had a fully reliable narrator. That is thanks to Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles.

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