What do our guests do to be better humans? (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
I'm Chris Duffy, and you're listening to How to Be a Better Human. One of my favorite parts of hosting this show is that every time we do an interview, I get to end that interview with the same two questions. The first thing that I say is, “What is something that has helped you to be a better human?” And then I ask, “What is something that you are working on right now in yourself to be a better human?”

The answers are so fascinating. And at least to me, the idea that these incredibly talented, accomplished, very good humans we have as our guests still have no shortage of things to work on in themselves is a huge relief. It's a reminder that none of us ever gets to a place where we are just a good person.

It is always a process. It always involves learning and growing. And the suggestions that people give for things that have helped them in that journey run the gambit. I never know what a guest is gonna say, and I am frequently very surprised and always delighted. But here's the thing, even though I ask those questions every interview, they often don't make it into the episodes that we put out.

This season, we've been experimenting with releasing some of them as bonus content, but that means that they're behind a paywall. And now that we're at the end of the season, I want to make sure that everyone gets to hear some of the best bits. So today's episode is a compilation of the most interesting answers we got to those two questions.

It's a jailbreak. We are busting the best moments out from behind the paywall and bringing them straight to you. I hope that you enjoy these as much as I have. To get us started, here's how KC Davis, host of the Struggle Care podcast and the author of How to Keep House While Drowning answered the question: what is something that has helped you to be a better human?

[00:01:35] KC Davis:
When I was in rehab—I went to rehab when I was 16. I was there for 18 months, and I had a, a full identity crisis, and everything I thought was true wasn't. And I didn't know whether to trust anyone. And I, I just completely lost myself. And there was this quote that was in a journal that someone gave me that said, “In order to discover new lands, one must consent to at least lose sight of the shore for a very, very long time.”

And it really impressed upon me something that I've experienced multiple times is that there's this in between stage of being at sea where you can't, you've let go of what you were, but you can't see what you're going to, you've let go of what's behind, but you can't see what's ahead. And that that's normal. And it's scary. But you can't get to that place until you let go. Until you move past, until you, uh, but trusting that like, that's the first step is just being willing to lose sight of the land.

[00:02:31] Chris Duffy:
I love that. What is one thing that you are personally doing right now to try and be a better human?

[00:02:39] KC Davis:
I am putting in a lot of effort into my own self regulation because, like, I'm a yeller. I’m a yelling parent, and I hate it so much. But what I've recognized is that it's not a self-discipline issue. It's a getting triggered issue. It's a, you know, self-regulation because of, of things that happened in my past. And what I'm doing is instead of, like, berating myself for yelling or telling myself, “I just won't do it next time,” sort of do it, taking my own advice and going, “Okay, how can we work around this? What can I do? How can I listen to myself, uh, before I get there? In what ways can I change my environment so that I'm not getting as triggered? In what ways can I, in that moment, sort of speak to my inner child so that I can calm her down and care for her so she doesn't feel like she has to get big and angry to protect herself?” And I'm hoping that that breaks some of the generational impacts of anger in parenting.

[00:03:47] Chris Duffy:
We're going to have so many more powerful, moving moments from the past season and surprising recommendations over the course of this episode. But first, we are going to take a short break and we'll be right back after this.

[BREAK]

[00:04:06] Chris Duffy:
On today's episode, we're hearing from a range of guests over the past season about how they answered the same two questions. What has helped you to be a better human? And what are you working on to be one right now? Here's Anne Helen Petersen, the writer and journalist. Several years ago, Anne moved from a big city to a small island off the coast of Washington state. And here's what she told me she's doing to try and be a better human right now.

[00:04:28] Anne Helen Petersen:
I am very good at being, at showing up and, and being there for m-my friends on the island that I knew before I moved here. But I also want to continue to, like, actually create these bonds, the loose bonds that create community with people who I didn't know before.

And like, I always talk myself out of the things that I could do to start doing that. It's also really hard. I think for a lot of people, if you're, so I am 41, if you don't have kids, right? Like, and you're not retired, the, the, you’re kind of, and you're not like, I don't know, a 21 year old, like you're in this really illegible space. That like, “What does… what does that person do with their time?”

So if I had kids on the island, I would already have a network of friends, right? ’Cause like I would meet all these other parents. If I was a retiree on the island, I would have other people who were doing the retiree thing, but I am neither nor. And so I, it's really going to require work on my part to make those connections. So the next month I am going to show up at, at least one community event.

There's also, they're starting a gardening club, so I'm definitely going to join that, but that, apart from that, and then I'm also going to go on a walk with someone that I didn't know before. Just be like, “Hey, you want to go on a walk?” Like, there's all sorts of people that you kind of know, right? You're like, “Oh, I say hi to that person every day when we walk by each other with our dogs.” Like, that sort of thing.

And so I'm, I'm also challenging others who are really interested in forming community to do that one hard thing that they keep talking themselves out of. So, I'm interested to see how that goes.

[00:06:08] Chris Duffy:
Something that I love about asking the same question to different guests is that surprising overlaps can emerge. People who I don't necessarily think of as working on the same thing end up sharing answers that feel like they're in dialogue with each other. Like, here's a fun overlap. Both Cord Jefferson and Jody Avirgan said that learning how to play tennis had made them better people.

[00:06:28] Cord Jefferson:
I just started taking tennis lessons. That is something that I'm bad at and I'm trying to be good at it because the older I get, the harder it is to do sports and tennis is a sport you can play forever. And so in an effort to continue to be healthy and be active as I age, I've started taking tennis lessons.

[00:06:51] Chris Duffy:
That was Cord. And then here is Jody's recommendation.

[00:06:56] Jody Avirgan:
There's a book called The Inner Game of Tennis, it's ostensibly about tennis, but it's really about the lessons of sports and kind of what it means to really understand your, yourself and perform. And it's just one of these books that starts as a guide to playing a tennis match, which I grew up playing tennis, I don't really play tennis that seriously. Um, and then all of a sudden it just goes deeper and deeper and just goes inward and inward and inward. It's really a, a special book.

[00:07:21] Chris Duffy:
Another thing I love from Jody is how he is trying to incorporate physical activity in all of its forms into how he is trying to improve himself.

[00:07:29] Jody Avirgan:
It's funny, like I’m… This is not me at all but I've made two very specific resolutions for next year that are, like, largely like codifying things that I normally do and one is to sweat every day. I've like, struggled with like, I'm gonna do this kind of workout, do this kind of workout, and I'm gonna fit this kind of thing in, I'm gonna go to these classes, and I've, I, and what I realized was like, take a, take a big step back, and set a really high level goal, that you can execute in all sorts of ways, but it's gonna be, “I'm gonna sweat every day.”

And I think that that will, and then the other one, actually related, but may sound like it's the opposite, but I'm gonna try and nap every day, Chris.

[00:08:05] Chris Duffy:
Oh.

[00:08:05] Jody Avirgan:
And I think, I don't know if that one's going to actually be harder to pull off, but I, but I'm just, I’ve, like, I'm at the age now where I think I just know some things about myself and a five minute nap makes everything easier. And I'm going to try and make that happen.

[00:08:20] Chris Duffy:
I love that you're experiencing the full range of human exertion every day, but that's the goal.

[00:08:23] Jody Avirgan:
That's exactly right. Yeah. Maybe I can pair them, right? Sweat—

[00:08:27] Chris Duffy:
Sweat while you nap. Yeah, get into a sauna. Have you, uh, have you accomplished both of those today?

[00:08:30] Jody Avirgan:
I, I’ve worked out today.

[00:08:33] Chris Duffy:
Okay.

[00:08:33] Jody Avirgan:
And I work out most days.

[00:08:34] Chris Duffy:
You do.

[00:08:34] Jody Avirgan:
But I have not napped. I like, I go to the gym and I kind of do what could be seen as a Crossfit-y type stuff.

[00:08:43] Chris Duffy:
Okay.

[00:08:43] Jody Avirgan:
You know, so a lot of like movements. I don't just like push heavyweight around. I like, I jump around and I use bands and stuff like that. I always played team sports, and I always, like, worked out for something, and so, like, my workouts have to be like, they have to have texture, and they have to have movement. I can't just go push weights around or I certainly can't go, like, for long runs. I'll just get bored.

[00:09:00] Chris Duffy:
Yep.

[00:09:00] Jody Avirgan:
And so like everything has to be like 45 seconds of this and then 45 seconds of this. And then, you know.

[00:09:04] Chris Duffy:
Next up, you got to take a nap.

[00:09:05] Jody Avirgan:
I know. I'm going to take a nap right now.

[00:09:07] Chris Duffy:
Cord Jefferson also talked about how taking care of his mental health had made him a better person.

[00:09:13] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah, Zoloft, my antidepressants. Don't be afraid of them. They, they, they may not work for you, but if they do work for you, they've been a, they've been a lifesaver for me. So, yeah, my antidepressant, Zoloft. I don't want to thank the pharmaceutical companies, never thank the pharmaceutical companies, but I would thank the doctors and scientists that made Zoloft, because that's made me feel like a better person, and, and it's made me a, a more generous and, and vulnerable and kind person.

[00:09:42] Chris Duffy:
Dr. Laurie Santos is a cognitive scientist and a Yale professor who studies happiness. She teaches a course on happiness and she is the host of The Happiness Lab podcast. So she is a person who knows a lot about happiness! And here is how she answered this question about being a better human.

[00:09:57] Laurie Santos:
I mean, I'll give a shout out to one of my favorite books these days, which is called The Stoic Challenge by Bill Irvine. He's a philosopher, and he sort of talks a little bit about how you can engage with practices that the Stoics, these kind of, you know, ancient philosophers thought about to be better. Where they really thought that you need to pay attention to the things you can control and the things you can't control, which, you know, is some of the things we've been talking about, right?

Like, you know, I might not be able to control the fact that these circumstances make me feel sad and anxious and whatever, but I can listen to those emotions and take action to fix them, right? So stoic challenge, highly recommend, very consistent with a lot of the happiness themes I talked about, but really thinking about the, the sort of ancient philosophical version of these, you know, these figures who figured this out long before we had happiness quizzes and so on.

[00:10:42] Chris Duffy:
And what's one thing that you personally are working on to be a better human right now?

[00:10:46] Laurie Santos:
Oh my gosh, so many things. This, this year I'm really trying, and this is the, the theme of this current season of my podcast that's running right now, is I'm really trying to get better at listening to my inner intuitions, the good intuitions, the like wise voice inside me, either when it comes to eating or what I really need or just kind of giving it space to pay attention.

And so I'm really, I'm trying to be a better human by listening to the kind of better angels of my own nature that often get really drowned out by, you know, all the, this, the outside voices, especially this time of year, telling us what we should be doing. So, really pay attention to what you need and, and honor it.

If you're like, “Nope, I need to take something off my plate,” you know, that's a hard thing to do if you're a busy, you know, like, person, but like, it can be the kind of thing that will really make you feel better. So yeah. Listening to my own inner voice is what I'm working on this, this new year.

[00:11:39] Chris Duffy:
We're going to take another quick break and we'll be right back after these messages.

[BREAK][00:11:51] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. Sometimes when I ask our guests what is something that has helped them to be a better human, they give me an answer that I never could have predicted. I am always so delighted when they really catch me off guard with something I never expected them to say. For example, Nedra Glover Tawwab told me that a thing that has helped her to be a better human is the movie Forrest Gump.

[00:12:12] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Hmm. Forrest Gump.

[00:12:15] Chris Duffy:
Oh, tell me why.

[00:12:16] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
I watched Forrest Gump a few weeks ago again on a plane, and every time I watch it, I have a different revelation. And this time when I watched it, I thought about how he did all of these things from a kind place with the intention of things working out without having this blueprint that we think we have to have for everything and how successful he was by just trying different things, all of the things he tried.

Because so often we'll get fixated on, “Well, I'm not good at that.” And it's like, well, start running. Well, start ping pong. Well start, you know, it's just like start shrimp boat fishing. Uh, like, just get started. And, and sometimes the success or, or even finding out what your purpose is, it's just trying different things.And that's how you get to this place of like, oh, you know, now I could just go back to my mama's house and, you know, sit on a porch and drink tea.

[00:13:19] Chris Duffy:
I am so delighted by that answer. I think it is so lovely. And listen, I, if the bonus episode is not called “Start Shrimp Boat Fishing”, then we have done something wrong.

For a Aparna Nancherla, it was a stranger on the sidewalk who first came to mind.

[00:13:32] Aparna Nancherla:
I now live in LA, but I used to live in New York and I lived in a pretty busy neighborhood, like a lot of people traffic at all times. And I remember when I would leave my apartment, I would get really stressed to, like, enter the fray of humanity.

And one time I was walking back from my apartment, I had, like, my earbuds in, I was just like, “Okay, just like, you know, one more block and then you're free of all of these like strangers with all their, like, mixed energies.”

And then this old woman stopped me and she was just like, “Could you help me? Like, my shoe's untied, and, and I need help tying it.” And I, like, stopped to tie this woman's shoe, and truly, it was, like, she, like, gave me a chance to help her in the, like, smallest way possible, and, but, like, it was just, like, it fully took me outside my head, and, like, connected me to another person, and, like, she gave me that opportunity, and, like, I just felt so different just doing that for like a minute.

And just like, it's not like we then have this beautiful friendship, but even just that, like, small moment of connection, like, it really, like, made me feel better. And I think I, yeah, I try to remember that it can be the smallest things that, that can, like, remind us of our, like, connection to the rest of the world or just like how we fit in with other people. So, that lady ruled.

[00:15:00] Chris Duffy:
Lori Gottlieb gave an answer that I've thought about a lot. I really love this idea about how reading fiction, whatever fiction you choose, can help us to be more empathetic.

[00:15:11] Lori Gottlieb:
I have books the way I think other women might have shoes. So, like, there's just no room for any of my books, so I think just reading and I, I, mostly read fiction because I feel like there are deep psychological truths in fiction that… where we see ourselves mirrored in these characters. I, I can name, you know, a hundred books. But I, I just think reading fiction makes me a better human. It helps me to understand myself and, and my clients on a completely different level.

[00:15:46] Chris Duffy:
I love that answer. I've also, you know, as someone who used to teach English and, and work in elementary schools, I've always said that, like, I both enjoy reading and love fiction as just a pleasure. But I also think it's like one of the easiest and most effective ways to learn empathy and to, like, embody someone else's experience and actually feel it.

[00:16:05] Lori Gottlieb:
Yeah. And I think to, it allows you, you know, one of the things I get to do as a therapist is I get to learn about other people's worlds in a way that you don't on social media or out in the world in general. You know, people are really inviting you into their lives.

And I think in, in great fiction, you know, you're going into worlds and you're meeting people in fiction that you wouldn't ordinarily meet. And I think that that just broadens our experience in the world. It makes us more open.

[00:16:34] Chris Duffy:
Finally, to close out this compilation episode, I want to leave you with an exchange that I had with the singer Jessie Reyez.

Talking with Jessie was one of the only times this season that we did an interview in person. Normally, we conduct the interviews remotely. And I was really struck by how vulnerable and thoughtful Jessie was in conversation, the same way that she is in her music. Here's what Jessie had to say about being a better human.

[00:16:56] Jessie Reyez:
I'm reading this new one right now called A Return to Love by Marianne Williamson. There's one part that really resonated that's like this idea that… like right now I struggle with feeling whole and the idea that we’re… forever seeking something to, like, fill that up thinking that we'll find it outside of ourselves or outside of spirit or outside of source is just so fundamentally flawed, you know?

Because then even if you do find said thing or said person, then all this pressure that you're gonna now apply to that is by default gonna make even the possibility that didn't even exist of that thing or person fixing you more fundamentally impossible because all of this pressure is gonna make you think that them not being able to fix it, oh now you're fucked and now you're gonna project negativity onto the thing that you thought was gonna bring you joy in the first place.

So part of finding peace, in my opinion, and also what's resonated with me from that book is just making an effort to feel, or making an effort to find that wholeness within yourself, or with spirit, or with God, or with source, with light, whatever it is that you grip to or feel when you close your eyes.

I had a thought the other day, and it, you know people say like they got a download, or they got like, it was just a message, and it was like, there's good news and bad news. The good news is that nothing outside you can hurt you. The bad news is that nothing outside you can help you either. And I just, it just served, it's so funny for a sentence to serve as comfort as a, and as a dagger, because it's both, you know? But it resonated.

[00:18:36] Chris Duffy:
You're making me emotional now, too. That's the idea of, um, how to find wholeness and how you have to find it inside yourself is… That’s a hard one.

[00:18:45] Jessie Reyez:
So hard. It's so difficult. It's so difficult. But mountains have been moved before, so…

[00:18:52] Chris Duffy:
What’s one thing that you are working on in yourself right now to be a better person?

[00:18:58] Jessie Reyez:
To accept. To accept and to just… I have a tendency to… I'm hypercritical on myself and I like, you know, just where can I get better? Where, even after shows, I’d be like, alright constructive critiques. Let's go. So I can apply. And sometimes it's not always the best because I struggle sometimes with self love because I don't show myself as much grace as I could. ‘Cause I'm always just, you could do better, you should be better, why didn't you do this, why didn't you do that?

And so by default, I'm like that outwardly. Which isn't an easy place to be in when you're in my inner circle and I'm always saying like “Hey, you could do this better, hey, you didn't do that, hey, you're this, you're that,” and sometimes it helps if, if you feel that and you can be present and like, feel your thought process about to critique someone… Ask again, whatever it is you believe in—energy, source spirit—to, like, use you and take over your tongue for a second. Or to like heal that judgment in you and if you still get called to help somebody then maybe you can but in, in a way that's like, that has some decorum, that has some softness in how you approach it so that someone doesn't feel attacked and judged. And it might help build them up as opposed to like my natural course of action which is just like poof! And just letting the sentence sit on its own corners and all, but those corners can cut.

So, I don't really like to do that, and I've been trying to just be more delicate and be more present in the moment when I feel like I see somewhere that someone could improve. And just hold space for who they are and accept who they are and also doing that with myself. But with myself it's more difficult. Doing it outwardly is, I brought, but funny enough, just proven to be a little bit more… just easier, but with myself, it's, it's harder, but I'm learning.

[00:20:47] Chris Duffy:
Okay. I hope you enjoyed this very different episode of our podcast. Thank you to all of our guests from this past season for sharing and for being so thoughtful and open and generous with your time. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and upcoming live shows at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniella Balarezo, Chloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine, who constantly are helping me to be a better human.

This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles, who makes sure that I am truthful.

And on the PRX side, a team that has my eternal gratitude, Morgan Flannery, Noor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzales.

If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review. And if you're listening on the Spotify app, answer the discussion question that we have put up there. We would love to hear what has helped you to be a better human and what you are working on right now. Thanks again for listening to our show and making this all possible.

We have one final episode for season three that is coming out next week. And then after that, we will be back with more episodes in season four. Thanks again for listening and have a great week.