How to set boundaries and find peace (w/ Nedra Glover Tawwab) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Here's an embarrassing fact about me, and this feels like the perfect time to share it. I am very, very bad at setting boundaries. If you ask me to make time for a five-minute phone call and then you speak for two hours, I will probably not say anything to object, even if I have somewhere else to be.

If you tell me that the work that I'm doing for you for free is not good enough, I will probably redo it all. If you demand that I move out of my own home and let you move in, I can't say that I will agree, necessarily, but I'm definitely not sure that I will refuse. And look, now that you've heard that on this podcast, please don't test me on it.

Don't try, ‘cause I, I'm worried that I might let you do it. And look, I know that this is not a good character trait. I'm not proud of this in myself, but drawing clear lines in the sand, it's hard for a lot of people, not just me. And that is why I am so excited for today's guest, Nedra Glover Tawwab.

Nedra is the author of the best-selling book Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. And her new book, Drama Free, which tackles the area in which many people find it the hardest to set boundaries: with family members. To get us started, here's a clip from a segment that Nedra did on the series The Way We Work.

[00:01:16] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
I’m a therapist whose job it is to help people create healthier relationships. And let me tell you, it can be really hard to tell someone what you need. It takes a lot of courage to stand up and say, “This is the way I want to be treated.” Most of us aren't so great at vocalizing to the people in our lives what makes us feel respected and valued. This is true with friends, family, partners, and it's also true at work.

[00:01:47] Chris Duffy:
I am gonna practice setting a clear boundary right now. This right here is the line between our show's intro and an ad break. We will be you right back after this.

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[00:02:03] Chris Duffy:
Today we're talking with the author and therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab about how to set healthy boundaries and communicate clearly about the way you want to be treated.

[00:02:11] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Hi, I'm Nedra Glover Tawwab, a licensed therapist and author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace and Drama Free.

[00:02:21] Chris Duffy:
So, in your first book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, one of the things that I found most interesting was just this idea that a lot of us feel guilty about setting boundaries because we think that there's somehow something rude about that. But there's plenty of ways to do it, to set a boundary in a way that is totally not rude at all and is in fact, a healthy thing to do.

[00:02:41] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Absolutely. I think that the guilt is something we are taught as a way to get us to conform, right? Like guilt is a powerful teaching tool for kids. It's like, “Tf you don't do that, this. If you make this person mad, then this.” But, people aren't teaching us how not to feel guilty, how to use our voice. I think it's very interesting how we want kids to be assertive, but we don't teach them assertiveness skills with us. They have to be able to be assertive with you too. They have to be boundaried with you as well in order for them to use it with other people.

[00:03:17] Chris Duffy:
One of the things that I, I've thought about a lot as I think about this idea of boundaries is how, when I was working in an elementary school, you see so clearly how if you set a line, for some kids, that's totally enough just to hear it from you. Great. They understand the line, but then there is always a subset of the, the class who, they're gonna test that boundary. You can't just say it. You have to enforce it. They want to see, like, what does that line look like in practice?

[00:03:41] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yeah, it's a verbal thing that we do. We say to people what we want, what we need, what we expect, what our rule is for ourself or the environment, the classroom, or whatever that is. And we also can behave as if we have a boundary. The behavior piece is sometimes the part that we struggle with the most because we think once we've said it, that the other person will take our boundary and now implement it, and it’s, it's really up to us to enforce it through the behavior.

So what I've seen is people may say, you know, “I've asked so-and-so not to call me, you know, during my work hours, and they still call.” But this person is answering the phone. It's like, well, your behavioral boundary is saying it's okay to call and you're actually not busy. And so if you're actually busy, that behavior would look like maybe enforcing your boundary by not answering, since you've already said you're not available.

[00:04:43] Chris Duffy:
At least for me, that is the harder part to do. When someone is, you know, exactly, in that situation, say it's, it's hard to be like, “What they're emailing me or they're calling it, it must be important. I have to do it.” It, it's scary to actually enforce the boundary.

[00:04:55] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Each time that that happens, when there's someone you're clearly setting a boundary with… “Don’t do this thing. This is how I want you to do whatever.” We look at them disrupting that boundary as it must be a crisis. That's why they showed up unannounced. It must be a crisis. That's why they're calling right now.

And then you talk to the person and they're like, “Hey, how are you?” You're like, “What? There's no crisis. You just came over here unannounced for no reason?” It's like, yeah, they did. You know why? Because they don't really wanna adhere to your boundary. They're showing you through their actions that they have a whole ‘nother boundary, and it's not, it's not the one that you intended.

[00:05:38] Chris Duffy:
What are some of the practical things that you think people should just like right away, start with when they're trying to draw boundaries with people in their lives or situations that are kind of difficult?

[00:05:46] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
I would say pay attention to the things you complain most about. That person who stops by your desk for that super long chat. The, the person who doesn't seem to be listening as you're talking because they're distracted by their phone. So step one is to react a little faster because sometimes with boundaries, we'll let things go on for years.

And then when we finally set the boundary, the person is so offended because you’ve allowed them to do this thing forever. And now it seems like you're making this swift change when in actuality you've been upset for seven years. They just didn't know it. Also, your boundaries can shift over time, right?

Like your boundary at, you know, this point in life may not be your boundary in two years. So don't get so focused on “I must have this boundary forever”. It is a thing you can transition. And you know, certain people don't need certain boundaries. So there are some people who naturally understand some things, so don't think you have to have these hard conversations with everyone.

Just feel the relationship out sometimes to see who needs certain boundaries, and those things don't have to apply to all people. And lastly, don't think about boundaries as something you need to do in this big conversation. It can really happen in the moment. It can be really swift. It could be, you know, even lighthearted sometimes.

I've certainly, you know, set boundaries in a very joking way, but it was serious. And I might even say like, “No. Hey, I'm serious. Call me before you come next time.” And it's possible sometimes to keep it light. So, be mindful of your tone. Be mindful of the place you're setting the boundary, the surroundings, but certainly have a little fun with it sometimes.

[00:07:39] Chris Duffy:
What are the most common types of boundaries that people who you work with struggle with?

[00:07:44] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
I feel like many people right now are having a lot of boundaries around being overwhelmed and not meeting other people's expectations, so they're overcommitting themselves. Time is a place where we allow people to dictate what we're supposed to be doing.

So before the pandemic, people were, “So like every weekend I have a party, I have a this, I have a that, I have a this.” And I'm like, “You can say no to these things.” And people found so much pleasure in the, in the pandemic, unfortunately, just by being able to not have to go to all of these social obligations or even family gatherings.

And now, if you enjoyed not doing those things, you know, two years ago, you can still not do those things, like it's completely optional. I know you can't say no to every single thing, but you may want to place value on the relationships that are important. Every invite does not have the same level of importance, and it certainly shouldn't have the same level of commitment.

Another thing that I see a lot of is, and sometimes we don't think about this as a boundary issue, but not asking for help. Trying to do everything on their own. I talked to a few people who have of varying ages, maybe tried to do something in their house, like, stand on a ladder and do this thing, broke their ankle.

I'm like, “Why are you doing that?” So like, “You're not a roofer. Why were you even doing it?” There are times when we don't have the skillset. We don't have the time, we don't have the mental capacity, and in those moments, we need to seek a friend, a professional, a neighbor, or someone else to help. We have to get away from the spirit of DIYing our entire existence. You are not a self-made person. You are a community-based person, and you need help from other people.

[00:09:56] Chris Duffy:
It's interesting too, to think about how asking for help requires being a little bit vulnerable and also requires admitting that you're not perfect, and at least in North American culture, right, there's a lot of stigma around both of those things. It's, it's hard to, to be vulnerable. It's hard to admit that you can't do it all yourself, and that you can't live up to the idealized version of someone who never needs anything from anyone else. That's, those are challenges.

[00:10:21] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yeah. Yeah. I, I hope that we can embrace the big need that we have to, to receive help from other people. I think independence is often celebrated, right? Like, you go from needing everything as a human from everyone else. You need someone to hold you to change your diaper, to feed you. And the more independence you get, the more you're celebrated, right? Like, “Oh my gosh, look at you, you're able to do this thing. Oh my gosh.”

And some of us don't know how to step back from that. You see it when you know, you start to age or when you start to have a medical issue and you now need help from other people, and it's just debilitating to be, “Oh my gosh, I can't drive because of my sight.” Or, “Oh my gosh, my foot is broken and I can't do this thing. Oh my gosh, I have this chronic illness.”

It's like the grief that we have around not being able to do things on our own. We have been taught that we always should be able to do it, when in actuality, maybe we always needed help. Maybe it would be nice to have support at different areas, and I, and I think it's good for our mental health to learn to lean on other people.

[00:11:38] Chris Duffy:
Okay, so I took a, an intro to psychology class in, in college, and on the first day of the, the psychology class, the professor said, “Listen, I'm just gonna say this right now. As we are learning about these conditions, you almost certainly don't have them. Every single time I teach this class, people come up and they self-diagnose with all of the things they like instantly, you know, you read about it and it's hard to not relate to the, the issues so that people always come up to me and think that they have all the things we're learning about. I'm just saying, it’s possible, but you probably don’t.”

I feel like talking to you and, you know, engaging with your work, it must be the case that so many people come up and are like, “This is exactly me. Everything you said is me.” Like, you can't help but see yourself in your books and in the lessons that you, that you teach. Do you find that to be the case?

[00:12:26] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
I do find that to be the case, but I, I think as your psychology professor stated with mental health diagnosis, and we see this a lot online now, that you know, you'll see these listicles and you're like, “Yes, I have this thing.” But the part we're not factoring in is life impact, right? Like you can have, you know, symptoms of whatever, but if it's not impacting your life in a particular way, then it doesn’t meet criteria for you. Even when I'm talking about like co-dependency and enmeshment, I'm like, “Is it a problem for you, or do you love the co-dependent relationship? Is everybody, like, happily co-dependent?”

Then you know, I'm like, “What is the problem?” But sometimes what happens is with this type of work, we will see that someone else is being taken advantage of and the person hasn't stated that they have a problem with it, and it's like, “No, I know that they have a boundary issue with these other people.” So, can we create goals for other people in their relationships around boundaries, around having healthier relationships if that's not what they want?

[00:13:44] Chris Duffy:
It, it actually goes to a really big thing that I wanted to ask you about and talk to you about, which is you give this piece of advice that you cannot change people. However, you can ask that they honor your requests, and if they do not, then you have choices. So, when we sometimes can see the problems, and we want to be able to change the person, how? How do we do that? How do we actually put those into place?

[00:14:07] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Well, when we see what the problem is and we go to the person and we say, “Hey, this is my issue. I would like whatever.” And the person, sometimes they don't blatantly say, “I won't do that.” They just won't do it. You'll see it in their behavior, or they'll violate it in some way, and you have a choice. I think about when people say things like, “Every time I tell my sister something, she tells my mom.”

If you go to your sister and you say, “Hey, I'm telling you this. Please don't tell mom,” and your sister continuously does that, do you want to keep telling your sister? Do you want to tell her and be mad? Do you want to stop telling your sister?

[00:14:51] Chris Duffy:
But you talk about how one of the real challenges can be, then other family members almost take it personally. But they're like, “Well, no, you have to keep telling your sister stuff. That's how it works.”
And you know, they might be upset because they're your, your father or your mother or another family member that feels like it somehow reflects on them. How do you then go about handling the ancillary people in the family when you draw a boundary with one person?

[00:15:13] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yeah. That, that causes, you know, more conversations to occur and, and one of those conversations could be, “I understand that you have a different perspective about this situation, but this is what I'm choosing to do.” Because what your parent is saying, “This is what I would do with my sister,” is not really sound advice for you because if you pull your sister out of the equation and say, “Hey, if I had a friend and I was telling this friend something, and every time I told this friend something, they told all our other friends, what would you suggest I do in that situation?” If the parent is really being non-biased, they would very likely say, “You should stop telling that friend that thing.”

So, the solution to this is the same thing. It's just a different person who has a different role in my life, but the lowering of standards for the sibling relationship is actually not healthy because what I want to be able to do is speak to a person I can trust. I'm not ending a relationship. I am not saying I will not see you at Thanksgiving. What I am saying is “I will not share certain information with this person based on how they share those things with other people. Please respect that.”

[00:16:34] Chris Duffy:
I, I think this is such a radical idea, honestly. I, I, it's both extremely intuitive, right? Like what you're saying is, like, just because they're your mom or your dad or your sibling, they're also a person and a person shouldn't treat you this way. That is very intuitive, and yet it is so radical to think that we would hold everyone in our lives to the same standards and the book is filled. I mean, every single chapter is like practical takeaways. So what are some that you f—you feel like are the, the ones that are having the biggest impact or making the, the most change for people?

[00:17:07] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Mother-in-law relationships. And the challenge with mother-in-laws is we have this expectation that we have to like them. You don't. You don't have to like your mother-in-law. You know, if you have children, this is your child's grandparent; this is your partner's mother. But it doesn't have to be this close relationship.

But many people believe, like, if we're not close, then that's problematic. And it's like, no. You get to choose your level of interaction with anyone. If you don't have a close relationship with a sibling, it doesn't mean that you don't have a relationship. It means you don't have a close relationship. But with in-laws, there's this expectation that because this person is, you know, maybe an elder, that they have this information about how to be in relationships with other people. And it's not true when you're dating someone; their family has their own cultural stuff going on, and you're stepping into that and it's like, your job is not really to change their whole system and to point out enmeshment and to point out who's favored.

All of these things that we do, it's really to figure out how do I be a relationship with these people? How do I, you know, maintain my sense of self? What are my boundaries and what is possible for these connections?

[00:18:37] Chris Duffy:
Can you define enmeshment for us? Just ‘cause it's a term that I had never heard before I read your book.

[00:18:41] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Ah, enmeshment is when who we are emotionally, mentally, and physically is entangled with someone else. It becomes problematic when someone else doesn't want that level of closeness or they don't want to think like everyone else. When there's one person who's trying to have some autonomy over a few people.
It becomes problematic because enmeshment means we function as being the same. We function as being very close in a certain way, and often with in-law relationships, you're coming in and you're changing something in that. So, there's gonna be pushback in that. But hopefully, after a few years of being solid in your boundaries and kind of reconfiguring some things, things will, will settle if we are open to having some of these conversations. And guess what? Most in-laws have had to do the same thing. They have. So it's, it's your turn.

[00:19:43] Chris Duffy:
You also talk about codependency, which is different than enmeshment.

[00:19:45] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
So codependency is when we rescue or we are being rescued from negative and unhealthy behaviors. You see this a lot with a substance-abusing family member. Or someone who has some financial issues, someone who may just have challenges with doing certain things. Codependency can happen in a parent-child relationship, a sibling, parent relationship, sibling relationship. But it's really you not allowing this person to have any consequences, any natural consequences for the chaos that they create.

[00:20:29] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick break right now, but we will be back with more from Nedra right after this.

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[00:20:41] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. I think that one of the things that I find to be a real challenge and, and honestly a problem with a lot of shows that are kind of in the like self-help, self-improvement space is that often there's this idea that like, “You can just fix it if you just try hard enough, and if you, like, do these three steps, you'll be perfect.”

But you talk about a lot of stuff in both of your books that are really serious issues. Right? Like, you talk about adverse childhood experiences; you talk about emotional, physical, sexual abuse. You talk about addiction, and a big message in your books is that a lot of this stuff is not necessarily fixable by you. You say, like, sometimes it might not work.

[00:21:25] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yeah. Well, not every story has a happy ending. And that is really tough, right? Like, we do, like, this prescriptive, “if you do this, then blank.” You know, sometimes I get that with people who are grieving and they come to therapy and they're like, “I just want to feel better by next week.”

And I'm like, “Next week? So your parent died. You're 37. So 37 years of being a child and you'd like to be over this within a week. I cannot help you with that. Can't help you with that. What I can do is hold space for you to grieve. I don't know how long that grieving will be. I imagine it'll be lifelong because it seems like an important relationship.” Will some of the symptoms subside? Absolutely. You won't be crying every day, all day. I don't know when that'll happen. I can't guarantee anything. There's no money-back guarantee with any of the things I'm saying. What I'm saying is I hope. I hope by you saying this to this person, it will work. And also it's possible they have a different agenda.

[00:22:37] Chris Duffy:
You also talk really powerfully about how, how to and when to end a relationship or cut a relationship off?

[00:22:44] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yes. My biggest one is safety. So there are times in life where relationships are just unsafe. Sometimes physically, I've talked to adults who are being physically hit by their parents when they do something.

That's a situation where that's domestic violence. You know, should you be in a relationship where you are physically unsafe? Should you be in a relationship where you are being verbally abused? Those are questions that a person has to answer for themselves. You know, there are times when people are not ready to leave a relationship, and I don't support leaving before you're ready.

Right? It’s really up to you because you will have to deal with how that estrangement feels, and it, it will be sad. It will be sometimes a loss, but sometimes it's a relief to not be in some of these unhealthy family relationships.

[00:23:44] Chris Duffy:
You literally have, like, six questions that you should ask yourself before cutting off a toxic family member. Let's say someone's listening and they've kind of thought about it and they're like, “This person who's in my life is really challenging, and they're, and they don't seem to want to hear me when I draw boundaries, and they don't seem to be a person that I can be around in a healthy way.” How can the person then cut them off in a safe and healthy way for themselves, but then how can they also process the grief of losing someone? Because I think that can also be one of the real challenges of this.

[00:24:15] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Yeah. Well, if you are processing a cutoff, I think finding support… So that support could be therapy, it could be conversations with family members that support the cutoff. It could be with friends or mentors or whoever you find to be within your support system, and it is hard, and it is sad. It is a grieving process because it is a loss. It’s a, a loss of a relationship that if the circumstances were different, you would've loved to have the relationship. Sometimes people's behaviors are so unhealthy that it is more harmful for you to be in a relationship with them.

And when that is the case, you are not making an easy decision. And as you make that decision, you know, I do think that the grief is part of the process and it's not anything you can rush. There will be, you know, moments in the year, anniversary dates where you may think about the person. There may be, you know, certain songs or different things that happen at family gatherings that cause you to think about the person.

And for that, I would say allow it. It's okay to miss people. It's okay to be sad about not having them in your life. It's okay to wish that things were different, and you don't have to do anything about that. It's not anything you need to resolve. Over time, the, the loss will be less intense.

[00:25:47] Chris Duffy:
So you give an example in the book where you're talking about a, a mother who's struggling to deal with one of her children who has an addiction issue, and she feels like if she sets any boundaries with this person, that they're gonna kind of spiral out of control and she might lose them forever.

She has some, some very real fears. You know that her kid might, might disappear even though this person is an adult, that they could end up on the streets or, or even die, and it's a really challenging situation for her to even think about putting boundaries anywhere on this person. Can you share a little bit more about how you address some of the fears in that situation?

[00:26:20] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
When we're worried, our brain goes to the worst-case scenario. All of these terrible things could happen, and it's like there is no other possibility. Lots of people have their own moment of saying, “I'm tired of doing this.”

Is it possible that your level of helping this person is actually enabling them? And when I say enabling, meaning keeping them in the space of doing this thing that you would rather not see them do. That is codependency, feeling like, “If I did this, then this person would suffer this consequence because of my lack of support towards their issue,” when in actuality, we don't know. And sometimes with addiction, the other person will make you feel that way.

You know, “If you don't help me, if you don't help me with this thing, I'm going to, you know, some, some horrible outcome.” And you know, that's a manipulation tactic for sure. And it’s, sometimes it's true. Sometimes they will, you know, do things to say, “Okay, you're gonna help me with this,” but it's, it's one of those things that you have to get some support around.

With addiction, I think Al-Anon is a wonderful, supportive space and community for people who have family members with addiction issues because there is so much manipulation and codependency, and if I don't do this then, or it's my fault because that you have to work yourself out of, to even show up for this person.

[00:27:55] Chris Duffy:
How important is culture in teaching or not teaching us about boundary setting? What's been your experience with the intersection of culture and boundaries?

[00:28:03] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
There are certainly communities where boundaries are discouraged because of the enmeshment, the cultural enmeshment in the family. Like you wanna carry forth certain traditions.

So if a person were to step away from that, it seems like a very offensive thing, but I think over time, cultures change. Like if we really think about it over time, cultures have changed. And I wonder who was the boundary setter to change some of the things in the culture. So it's not like boundaries haven't been a part of cultures, it's just like we don't wanna be the person to break up that cultural dynamic.

Um, I heard a comedian, Yvonne Orji, talk about wanting to become an actress, and she was in college and her pa—she's Nigerian, and her parents were like, “Oh, no. Like you, you must become a doctor. You must go to school for this thing.”

And she's like, “No, I want to do this other thing.” And you know, ultimately it worked out for her. She's a successful actress, but I think she is saying, like, “This is a thing I want to do.” And you know, I, I think sometimes there is this idea like, “Oh my gosh, like you don't wanna disappoint your family, but you also want to live your life.”

Like, aren't you your own cultural system? Like aren't you creating your own personal culture? Aren't you creating a culture within your immediate family? Don't we want to decide for ourselves what our lives could look like?

[00:29:38] Chris Duffy:
Well, Nedra, speaking exactly to that, I, I feel like you really have added to the culture with your writing. You're changing the culture with the way that you reframe the way we think about these things. One of the, the big things that you've reframed for me recently is, is in your new book, which is called Drama Free. Obviously, being human means that we're gonna have conflict across our relationships, but I'm curious what it is that you mean by drama free and how you envision a life that can be drama free, even if it's not conflict free, because those are different things in your mind.

[00:30:10] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
Drama to me is high-intensity arguments, long-term silent treatments, lots of conflict, often, frequent chaos in the relationships, gossiping, just all of these things that might appear on, like, a nineties TV talk show, right? Like, “…and this person did this.” Like, that's what I think of as drama. And I think when you have drama in families, it's not handled in a caring and loving way when there's conflict. It’s handled in a poorly executed way. It's handled in a high-intensity sort of way. So, just pulling people away from, you know, some of the things that we normally do, because sometimes we think that drama is normal. We think chaos is comfort, and it's like there is another way to communicate this to people.

There's another way to receive her information, and it doesn't have to be this high chaos type of environment. There really can be some conversations that we can have and even disagree about without falling out or without having, you know, all of these sort of dramas.

[00:31:28] Chris Duffy:
So what, what do you hope is the biggest takeaway that people take from your books and from this conversation and, and put into place in their own lives?

[00:31:39] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
From Drama Free, I would love for people to have the takeaway of you are the person who can change your relationships. So often we think, “Oh, if this other person does this thing, then my life will be better.” When in actuality, if I do this thing with this other person, my life can be better. So I want people to feel empowered reading the book and to know that they have options. And with Set Boundaries, Find Peace, you know, I, I think the title is the intention, right? Like, it's like, set boundaries and guess what you’ll get? Peace.

[00:32:21] Chris Duffy:
Well, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be here, and I really encourage everyone listening to buy both of the books, Drama Free and Set Boundaries, Find Peace. They are incredible. And Nedra, thank you so much for being here.

[00:32:34] Nedra Glover Tawwab:
You’re welcome.

[00:32:37] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Nedra Glover Tawwab. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live comedy shows at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniella Balarezo, Whitney Pennington Rodgers, and Jimmy Gutierrez, who are finally reconsidering their previous motto of “Set no boundaries, find war.”

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