How to have great sex (with Siphumeze Khundayi and Tiffany Mugo) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and you are listening to How to Be a Better Human. Today we're gonna be talking about sex, and it sometimes feels like the more that we know, the more we discover is still out there. While conversations about sex and sexuality are more out in the open these days, for many people, there is still a lot of embarrassment and shame around the topic, and as a result, many people avoid talking about it at all. Myself included.

I will readily admit that I get very awkward and very nervous when I try and talk about sex. Luckily, today's guests, Siphumeze Khundayi and Tiffany Mugo, are the founders of the Hub of Loving Action in Africa, otherwise known as HOLAAfrica. They are known for promoting conversations about sex and sexuality across the continent.

[00:00:53] Chris Duffy:
What started as a passion project while they were still in university has now exploded into articles, workshops, a podcast, a TED Talk, and so much more. But at its core, HOLAAfrica is a place where African women and queer people have a safe space to talk about sex in a way that's positive and not just centered on trauma or shame or sadness, and also not centered on the often repressive ideas about love and pleasure that have historically been promoted by the Western world.

So in today's episode, I'm gonna talk with Tiffany and Siphumeze about what they've learned in the process of gathering so many other people's stories, how to let go of shame so that we can communicate more freely, and how to nurture a healthier and safer attitude towards sex, regardless of what you're into or not into.To get started, here is a clip from their TED Talk.

[00:01:43] Tiffany Mugo:
Even you, as an adult have some internalized ideas about sex that you never challenge, some good, some bad, and some very, very strange.

[00:01:52] Siphumeze Khundayi:
So when you allow someone to see you butt naked, do you ever think about how the ideas that you internally have will affect whether you will like them tickling your elbow or kissing your thigh, or shouting out the name of a chosen deity?

One must do internal monitoring and evaluation if we are gonna live our best sexy lives.

[00:02:14] Tiffany Mugo:
And we’re gonna tell you how to have a great sex life, right? But the first thing you need to do is let go of the bad ideas you have about sex. Think about the things that we need to change and the things we need to embrace in all of their shiny newness.

[00:02:30] Chris Duffy:
We are going to embrace all sorts of shiny newness right after this quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[MUSIC BREAK]

[00:02:42] Chris Duffy:
We are back. Today on the show we're talking about sex with Tiffany Mugo and Siphumeze Khundayi.

[00:02:48] Tiffany Mugo:
Hello everyone. I am Tiffany Kagure Mugo. I am a writer, curator, and thinker about town.

[00:02:55] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Hello everyone. My name is Siphumeze Khundayi, and I am a theater maker visual artist, and I co-curate HOLAAfrica.

[00:03:03] Chris Duffy:
Well, now that we know who you are, how did you two first meet?

[00:03:07] Tiffany Mugo:
So plot twist, we are actually a couple. A lot of people don't know that. I will tell my side of the story about how we met. We met at the World Cup, like bad breakup things. I was still in the country. I'm actually Kenyan and like my ex was just being a mess. We're not even gonna discuss that. And so I decided to stay for the World Cup instead of going home—the 2010 World Cup when it was in South Africa. And I think that we met the day of the first match. So that's when I think that we meet. We met, but apparently you have a different story.

[00:03:39] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Yes. So the actual story is, so we went to varsity together and we did, we had this festival, a theater festival, and each re-residence has to participate in this festival.

And we shared a stage, so her res and my res shared the same stage and they were doing, um, what is it called, For Colored Girls. And she was one, so she didn't have any lines in the entire show.

[00:04:06] Tiffany Mugo:
I did have lines!

[00:04:08] Siphumeze Khundayi:
So she, she came through just like, coming in as the man who steals someone's stuff. So I obviously had to watch these people rehearse over and over and over and over.

And that's actually where we met. And this was in our first day of university, but she doesn't remember me. And we then proceeded to meet every single year after that. And she doesn't remember me in all of the events that she's gone to. She remembers the people around me, but she doesn't remember me.

[00:04:33] Tiffany Mugo:
Okay, so first lie, I did have lines in that play, okay? Second lie. Okay. Okay. I dunno whether the other stuff is a lie, but the—

[00:04:42] Siphumeze Khundayi:
It’s not a lie.

[00:04:43] Tiffany Mugo:
The play thing is a lie. I had lines. Our genesis story is still up in the air, but it has been 13 years now, I think?

[00:04:51] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Yes, of us actual dating.

[00:04:53] Tiffany Mugo:
Yeah. So 12 years of us actually dating. And that’s how we met. We forgot our anniversary this year, which just goes to show how long we've been together.

[00:05:01] Siphumeze Khundayi:
It’s been a long time. It’s been a long time, guys.

[00:05:03] Chris Duffy:
That's a sign of a long, successful relationship for sure, when you forget the anniversary. Okay, so you founded HOLAAfrica. How? What was the initial response to that?

[00:05:12] Siphumeze Khundayi:
It was very positive, actually.

[00:05:14] Tiffany Mugo:
It was positive, but everyone was very shy.

[00:05:16] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Because I guess it wasn't a space that they were used to. And, and I mean it started with the physical workshops that we used to do where women struggled to, to speak a lot of the time. But over time, I think people then got comfortable and they spoke quite a bit actually. And then I think once the ball started getting rolling and people got used to telling their own stories, they, we just couldn't stop them.

And also we didn't censor, like what type of writing. All we said was it has to be positive. You cannot put down another human being in your expression of self, that's all. So even if you are not that great at writing, we would edit your work. We'd sit down and would edit you and make sure that you are coming across as the way that you want to come across.

But I mean, outside of people struggling to speak in the beginning, I think that everyone was excited about it. Everyone we, we had, all of the responses that we got were very, very positive. Straight women were like, “Oh my gosh, this platform, I need it.” Queer women, like, “Oh my gosh, this platform I need it.”

[00:06:20] Tiffany Mugo:
But one thing that was very interesting was, like, the shyness wasn't even just about contributing, but it was even around engaging with the platform.

Yeah. Like even something as small as a like on a post was quite difficult. So one of the things that whenever I'd go to conferences and stuff, people would come in, they'd be like, “Oh, we follow HOLA.” And I'm like, “That's great.” And they're like, “But we can’t like your posts sometimes.”

Because you know, a like is almost like acquiesence. And then it's the visibility of you having liked this post. And I think in a lot of people's personal spaces, ‘cause you know you got your grandma on Facebook.

[00:06:58] Siphumeze Khundayi:
‘Cause our website, there are certain African countries where you can't access our website.

[00:07:02] Tiffany Mugo:
And Asian countries.

[00:07:03] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Yeah, yeah. And Asian countries. So there's also that to navigate. So not accessing all of the continent as we’d, as much as we’d like to.

[00:07:11] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, I'd like to get a little bit deeper into that, into the, the idea of context and geographical context, because you know, one thing I noticed in your podcast, you ask that the question can be anonymous; we don't have to know who it is, but you need to know where they're from, because as you say in the podcast, geographical context is really important. That's so crucial for giving this advice.

[00:07:32] Tiffany Mugo:
One of the things that I've had to do is highkey check my privilege, right? Because we live in South Africa, so we can do the whole thing where we can be on a podcast like yours, which has a huge footprint, and we can live together and we can be fine. And you know, like tomorrow if we go for brunch, like I could sit on her lap and it'd be fine.

But like, it's one of those things of, well, you, you see, it also depends on what parts of the country we're in. So like for me, one of the biggest things has been h aving to like check myself every time we do work in different countries, especially like in the nature of like, you know, who we invite to the space.

[00:08:07] Tiffany Mugo:
Like one of the things we don't do is we don't publicize when we're going to another country to hold a workshop, we'll reach out to an organization and be like, “Hey, can we, can you like bring your members? Where is the safest place to do this?” Like we don't go with the hubris that we can just land, put up a post, and be like “HOLAAfrica coming to a city near you.”

Like we do not do that, right? So we work a lot with sort of organizations on the ground, people doing in incredible work in different countries. For me, I will not lie, it is a constant struggle of having to remember. And like even with you in Nigeria hosting that space.

[00:08:43] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Tiff is speaking about an experience that we had in Nigeria where people struggle to speak about the positivity of their sex, struggle to speak about how, what do they find attractive about each other, you know, and what they like, how they like to be touched, how they like to be spoken to by their partners because of this other violent narrative that they have to carry in their everyday life.

Yes, it's great for the rest of the world to identify, but this is about reminding our own people on this continent and in the context that we have in the difficulty of being queer on this continent, that it is okay for you to survive. It's okay for you to feel good. It's okay for you to enjoy your person as much as you go out into the streets and the world says, “This is not okay.” But behind closed doors, this is important for you to know, and it's important for you to create a healthy environment for you and your and your partner or partners, or however it is that you choose to create your sexuality or perform your sexuality.

[00:09:45] Chris Duffy:
So thinking about, obviously I come from an extremely high privileged place here, and yet I still personally feel so much fear and discomfort when it comes to talking about sex and, and bodies. And you know, I really, I loved your book, Quirky Quick Guide to Having Great Sex and, and one of the things I think is so powerful about it is you really address that of like, it can feel weird to talk about, it can feel uncomfortable, and it's worth pushing through that. And you acknowledge that it can feel weird. So where do you think that that fear and discomfort comes from?

[00:10:19] Tiffany Mugo:
I think the constant socialization and shaming. Even though people make like jokes when you're young, “Oh, you know, you're a little heartbreaker” and you're a little this and you're a little that. You know when kids will like hug or be overly intimate, there’s always that constant policing, right? That sex is something that is for a very specific time, a very specific purpose, and that gets drilled into us constantly, constantly, constantly. And I think we just continuously grow up with these mixed messages of, you know, we should all partner up and we should all like, you know, be little Heartbreakers and is that your boyfriend? Is that your girlfriend?

But then constantly being told that sex is not something that we talk about, and we also don't have the language because think about the first time, like a parent says the word penis or vagina in front of their child. Like to this day, my mother knowing my job, knowing the books that I have written, the work that I've done cannot stand it when I say vagina. Like, so when you grow up in that context, you, you, you can't talk about something you don't have the tools to talk about right?

[00:11:27] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Yeah. There’s also, I think, religion. And, and the way that we, we shape our, our value systems around religion and shaming people for sex before marriage. You know, is, is a sin and actually masturbating is a sin.

I think for the longest time I had a lot of sh—I carried a lot of shame around masturbating because this is, gets drilled in you, you are not allowed to touch yourself. And even, “Oh, you're not in a healthy space in your relationship if you're masturbating.”

[00:11:57] Tiffany Mugo:
Oh yeah, that's a good one.

[00:12:00] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Then now you're also attaching the sexuality that you are ashamed of to another person, and now you guys have to match. And yeah, there's a lot of policing around sex.

[00:12:10] Tiffany Mugo:
So much policing.

[00:12:11] Siphumeze Khundayi:
And it comes from every single direction.

[MUSIC]

[00:12:17] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back. So do not go anywhere

[BREAK]

[00:12:28] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. Okay, so we've already been talking a bit about some of the ways that society and strict religious interpretations have put all sorts of restrictive ideas about sex into our heads. For many people, it can feel like there's rarely ever a time where we can actually openly speak about sex.

And Tiffany and Siphumeze, they say that that was not always the case, and in fact, we can look to the past to teach us how to move forward. Here's another clip from their TED Talk.

[00:12:54] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Now it all seems pretty morbid that culture and society have failed us in our quest for coitus, but this is not the case. There are things that the past can teach us to help us upgrade the present.

[00:13:07] Tiffany Mugo:
So now if I had a glass of merlot, which I really wish I did, I would pour the ancestors a drink because there are ways in which African societies handled this sex thing before the sea that shall not be named—

[00:13:19] Siphumeze Khundayi (whispering):
Colonization

[00:13:20] Tiffany Mugo:
—came through. We had, within African societies, we had spaces both social and spiritual, that helped institutionalize healthy sexual practices. We had sexuality schools that taught social and erotic cues. We had spaces where teenagers could engage, understand, and like, properly know how to handle sexual urges and places where adults could handle the stresses and strifes of adulting ways.

[00:13:47] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Ways that didn’t include you hiding your credit card bill or deleting that toll-free number from your phone. These spaces of old were so important for women.

[00:13:56] Tiffany Mugo:
There were African sexual practices that centered women and, in particular, their pleasure. Yes, These spaces still exist, and they existed in the past where it was like a case of understanding that pleasure was a core part of your relationship as man and wife, because heteronormativity is forever.

But like just really, really understanding that and teaching that and being okay, but even within those spaces, it was for that particular thing. It wasn't just like at the watering hole being like, “Hey, you know what, he needs to go down on me more.” Like there was , there was specific spaces where we spoke about that.

[00:14:35] Siphumeze Khundayi:
And I mean, I think even just outside of Africa as well, the way the world was not as intimidated by sex. I mean, you look at Greek mythology, for example.

[00:14:47] Tiffany Mugo:
The Greeks were wild.

[00:14:48] Siphumeze Khundayi:
The Greeks were wild. The Greeks were wild. You know, people were free about sex before, and all over the world. It wasn't just here in Africa.

[00:14:57] Chris Duffy:
Thinking about the big picture of what you two work on here and why conversations around sex are so important. I think that there's the one hand where, on the personal level, we—when we don't talk about it, we kind of don't get what we want. We don't get things that feel good. We have a lot of shame. It, it's confusing to try and talk to a partner and have them read our minds or, or we don't know how to have those conversations.

But then there's also these really big societal problems with that too, right? Like being stigmatized and, and feeling shame leads to prejudice. It leads to people not reporting crimes because they feel like that is shameful. It leads to not having conversations around sexual health. It leads to diseases spreading.

All of these issues arise at, at their core from us feeling like this is not a subject that we can talk about. So that's a huge problem that I think is really important to get past. I wonder, with the positive side of this, what does it mean when you think about people being sexually healthy? What does that mean beyond just the physical safety and precautions of that?

[00:16:02] Tiffany Mugo:
I think one of the things that I've really been getting into lately is not just like the way you're saying the physical part of, you know, sexual health, but the emotional part, right? Sort of like, the sort of more spiritual part of emotional health and thinking about not emotional health, sexual health, and thinking about it more holistically, how are you feeling about your sex, right?

And I think that's like such an important part that a lot of people forget where when we're talking about sex, we're like, “Oh, okay, so I have condoms.” And you know, you know, we possibly live in a world where we have like access to like safe abortions and things like that and all of those logistical things.

[00:16:39] Tiffany Mugo:
But what does it mean to be emotionally healthy, right? And be sitting there and have sex and be like, “Okay. Was that like a good experience for me?” Not just physically, but emotionally? ‘Cause you can have orgasms, and you are just like busy fighting your own demons, right? And the reason you're having these orgasms is ‘cause you're running away from something.

And one of the things we've realized a lot in our work is how sex seeps into so much of your emotional life, right? So even like when people seek help for like, sexual problems, you'll find that a lot of it, there's like a psychological element. There's like, you know, needing to look into like past traumas and things, needing to look into like what you're going through right now. And so the emotional part for me is a big part of, like, what being sexually healthy looks like outside of the physical, just making it more holistic.

[00:17:36] Siphumeze Khundayi:
So what that means for me is also being free enough to decide what you enjoy. You know, I think the world right now, likes to tell us how we should perform our sex. How, how we should be sexual beings. We shouldn't be sexual beings, or you should be this kind of sexual being, like sex positivity has also created this huge pressure for people to be having a whole lot of sex, and not necessarily—like body counts or a thing now. So what that does is it starts, it starts creating a narrative that shames somebody who may not necessarily want to have as much sex or somebody who is, who does not want to have sex at all, you know?

So I think for me, sexual health is everyone being free to decide what kind of sex they want, or whether they even want to have sex without outside judgment, without anybody coming in to force their own opinions onto your sex.

[00:18:33] Tiffany Mugo:
So I, as, as you probably know from my podcast, I'm always like, “I’m just gonna tell you my life as it pertains to this.” But like, I know for me, one of the weirdest things that happened to me was after Quirky Quick Guide came out, I was so sexually tapped out. Like, I just did not want to engage with sex, let alone have sex. And now I'm sitting on panels, I'm sitting in spaces and people who've like engaged with the book or who've just seen the cover like, “So how did you write this book? Like was it all physical research?”

And I am just, I am sitting there, I'm dying inside in all of these spaces and I'm like, “What is going on?” And now everyone is expecting all of these like wild Eyes Wide Shut level stories and I'm like, “Actually, I'm not having sex right now.” And you can see the physical disappointment, like the, like people's faces just dropping and being like, “What do you mean? Like, this is a whole book about how to have great quirky sex? You must have, you must have at least three sex swings?” And I'm like, “No.” And so it's just really weird to not be able to, sometimes… even when you're like sex-positive, the pressure that comes from it.

So I think that idea of just being able to breathe. So that has been like a huge journey for me to be able to sit in spaces and be like, “I'm actually not having sex right now. And I feel nothing about, like, any of the judgment that you're feeling, cuz you've also come here expecting something.”

[00:20:02] Chris Duffy:
That’s really one of the things that I, I loved about your book is that I certainly wouldn't have said that I felt like I was sex-negative before, but my idea of a person who is sex positive is like someone who is way more out there, who is having sex with all, all sorts of people. Whereas I have been in, you know, a monogamous relationship for 15 years and I am about as boring as you could possibly get.

And so I was like, “That just doesn't feel like a term for me.” But I think you do such a great job of explaining that. It doesn't mean that you're out there, and you're having all sorts of adventurous, unusual sexual encounters. It can just be that you're doing what is right for you sexually and that you feel healthy about that, which I think is, is not always the case in terms of how it's publicly presented.

[00:20:44] Tiffany Mugo:
No, me and my friend were joking that when you're sex positive, you have to, number one, be kind of sexy, right? Like we were joking and then we were like also all of us in my like sex positive work squad, we all pole dance. It was just like, what are we all doing? How did we all end up pole dancing guys? Like we love it, but like guys, we can't all pole dancing.

[00:21:07] Chris Duffy:
So if there's pressure on both sides, right? There's pressure to be kind of like chased and perfect. And I'm putting this in big quotes like “sin free”, and then there's pressure on the other side to be like wild and pole dancing. What would you say to people who are trying to figure out where they fit and maybe aren't even really sure where they fit yet? What is a way to start these conversations or start to figure yourself out?

[00:21:29] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Hmm. I would say it starts with you. So rather than looking at what the outside thinks or what the outside wants, or doing research or doing any of that other outside work, maybe just close your doors and start with yourself.

Have a little bit of a touch here and there, and see what it is that you enjoy without anybody else's opinion, because at the end of the day, your sex is yours and, and I think where the world fails is trying to have an opinion on somebody else's sexual experience. No one can tell you what your sexual experience is but you, and you cannot discover it by reading, by doing all of these things.

You can do those things, they are helpful, but you have to start by connecting with yourself. What do you enjoy in your body? If you are comfortable in your body or not? How do I get comfortable in my body? What are the things that I'm uncomfortable with? Okay, then how do I get comfortable with the things that I'm uncomfortable with? Now, how do I make these things pleasurable for myself? You know, starting with that. But it is a self-discovery process. It is not a joint, it is not a group process. It's not any of those things.

[00:22:37] Tiffany Mugo:
Oh yes, and, and taking your pleasure and your sort of sexual experience out of your partner's hands. Your partner, single, plural, whatever it is. Genuinely taking your pleasure out of other people's hands. Be it one-night stands, be it your long-term partner. Be it that person who didn't hit on you at the coffee shop, so now you're feeling undesirable. Nah, man. As much as you can internalize things, which is difficult, like it's not the easiest thing, because we are pack animals as humans, but like as much as you can internalize the process of your sex, your pleasure, your body bodily experience, That I feel is one of the most important things.

[00:23:21] Siphumeze Khundayi:
It's also okay to not be in a good space sexually. I think we also put so much pressure on ourselves. We need to fix the problem, but sometimes you just sit in the problem and allow it its time, you know? So you don't have to, If you feel like you're in a sexual rat, don't try and fix it too quickly, like understand that there is something that needs that, that needs to be processed, and allow yourself that time to process.

You don't have to be okay with sex. You don't have to have sex all the time. You can go years without it and find whatever it is in yourself, then you can start coming back to it. So yes, we're giving advice on how to fix the problem, but you also don't have to force yourself to fix the problem.

[00:24:04] Chris Duffy:
So once we figure out kind of our own deal and we're trying to communicate it outwardly, what are some examples of healthy versus unhealthy ways to talk about sex?

[00:24:13] Tiffany Mugo:
One thing I always tell people: don’t try and like talk about and fix the sex during the sex. Guys, no one wants feedback when you’re butt-naked. Like, woo, no, have mercy. No one needs feedback when you're butt-naked unless it's like, “Ooh, that was good.” So we're non-monogamous. I had an experience with somebody, and like, it was our first night, and also first nights are not always gonna be fireworks. Sometimes… most of the time they're actually not.

[00:24:39] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Yeah. Most of the time they’re not.

[00:24:40] Tiffany Mugo:
Because you're still figuring out each other, and this person decided to give me feedback the next day, which was good. It was not during the sex, but it was harsh. Hey, woo, guys, when we give feedback? Kindness.

[00:24:54] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Don't blame the other person.

[00:24:56] Tiffany Mugo:
Yes. What people tend to do is they blame the other person for like a bad sexual experience and not understanding that sex like is a conversation. So if the conversation was, was whack, like there is a chance that there was a need for more of a back and forth, maybe there was a way that you weren't connecting or whatever. So what happened with this person is they just like came at me sideways, like it sent me reeling.

There's something inside me that, like, shut down and I, and I come from a job where I have the tools to build myself up instantly. So the fact that to this like day, months later, I'm still like having glitchy moments? Kindness, my people. Figure it out, how to say things kindly.

[00:25:41] Chris Duffy:
We really are at our most vulnerable, right? We're, we're literally exposed, but we're also figuratively exposed. It's hard to, to have a conversation where you know that you might hurt another person, and it's really hard to have a conversation where you know that you might get hurt.

Even the, the idea of like starting a conversation with kind of one of the most basic questions, which you've recommended in, in your book and in your talk, right, of like, is this good? Do you like this? That is really scary for a lot of people, myself included, because if there's the chance that they say no, and then you're like, “Oh, but I thought it was good.”

[00:26:17] Tiffany Mugo:
Oh no, I thought this was A-material stuff.

[00:26:21] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, it turns out it was a C material. Oh, no. we’re… our, our grading scales are so far off. So how do you, I mean, you two are professionals in communicating. What do you recommend for someone who is very much not a professional at communicating?

[00:26:33] Tiffany Mugo:
I would recommend writing down your thoughts first. Because I think one of the biggest things with communication is when we don't plan it, we kind of stumble into it and we just start saying things off the top of our head, and that's when things go sideways so quickly, quickly like so, so quickly.

[00:26:52] Siphumeze Khundayi:
And it's, this is the hardest thing for us humans to do, but it is very important to put your ego aside. It is very important. Somebody not enjoying something does not mean that you are doing something wrong. It just means that you need to readjust now and try something different. So, and that requires you to put your ego aside and this is about co-creating an experience together.

So even as you are writing down your thoughts, understanding that, okay, cool, ego aside, what am I trying to build with this human being here? What sort of experience do I want to have with this human being? Because it's also gonna be so different with each person that you have sex with. And even if you think you're confident and you know exactly what you're doing with the next person, you're not gonna know because it's a new body. And you're understanding very new things. And so you have to learn what they like. What you like and what somebody else that you've had sex with before liked isn't going to be the same thing. Most of the time it's not gonna be the same thing. So you have to relearn. You have to start from scratch every single time. So it's important to put that ego aside when you're dealing with sex and talking to a partner about it.

[00:28:03] Chris Duffy:
It’s important that we talk a little bit about how we can establish and make sure that we are constantly checking in on consent because that is a big part of really good sex.

[00:28:14] Tiffany Mugo:
Part of our work, we’ve seen that even in long-term relationships and stuff, the idea of consent seems to still be murky because people just do not have the basic tools to talk about their bodily autonomy, right? And it's not even just like, you know, women or gender nonconforming folks. I once had a conversation with a man and he was just like, “Sometimes I don't want sex, but I don't know how to say no.” Because the whole idea about men constantly wanting sex, you know, spreading their seed and all that stuff, it just boils down to the inability to be able to talk about our sex and our bodies and stuff, so we can’t. Even the word “no” now just becomes confusing or whatever.

[00:29:00] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. And I, I, from my own personal experience, I have often found that the hardest conversations to have are not about the presence of desire, but the absence of desire.

As a heterosexual man, there's not really, like, a cultural space for that, and as a result, it's like, wait, what does that mean? Is there something wrong with me? Is there something wrong with you? That that is a, for me personally, has been like one of the more loaded things to try and communicate, and to just be, like, in touch with in myself is those moments where, “Hey, this is just not something that I want.” It’s sometimes a weird pressure, I think.

[00:29:30] Tiffany Mugo:
And it's so difficult and I think—this is gonna be so weird, I'm out here like defending the fellas, it's not what I usually do—but like just the inability for like men to be like, “Actually I don't want to have sex.” And then the pressure because then the, their partners to like, “Oh I'm, I undesirable?”

And like the way, I said before, like this sort of group collective ego, the collective sexual ego, ‘cause now you don't wanna have sex. You may not have, want to have sex for a myriad of reasons. You may not want to have sex for one reason, right? And it, chances are it's a very internal thing. But then it becomes this whole thing of like your partner's, like “Am I now undesirable?”

[00:30:10] Tiffany Mugo:
And all of a sudden you've got like this big problem on your hands, and no one wants problems. We just want peace. We don't want problems. Right? So now you're just like, “Okay, maybe I should just have the sex”, and then all of a sudden the sex becomes a chore. And now you start thinking “Maybe I'm just not enjoying the sex with this person”, and it just spirals.

Whereas it could have just been a: “You know what? I don't feel like the sex right now.” “Cool, baby. Like, why don't you feel about like, like the sex?” And it's like, “Oh no, it's been a long working week.” Or “you know, someone left a really nasty comment on, like, my podcast, like, you know, on Spotify or Stitcher or whatever, and I don't need that. And I'm sad now, so I don't wanna have the sex.” So yeah, it's tricky.

[00:30:57] Chris Duffy:
What does, or what should the future of sex and conversations about sex look like?

[00:31:02] Tiffany Mugo:
Woo. Like wow, crystal ball things. Okay. What should I think? Freedom. Freedom, right? Freedom to speak about it however you want to. Freedom to let other people speak about it and engage with it. Like freedom for everyone and, and safety as well. Like, I think with freedom comes safety, and with safety comes freedom.

[00:31:24] Chris Duffy:
And the show's called How to Be a Better Human. What is one way that you are trying to be a better human? Right now?

[00:31:31] Siphumeze Khundayi:
I'm trying to be a better human by being a good human to myself, because I know that when I allow myself to be free, and I allow myself to be exactly how I want to be, and I give myself the love and the patience, I'm able to give it to other people as well.

[00:31:48] Tiffany Mugo:
I think I'm trying to be a better human by slowing down because I move very, very quickly, and sometimes that comes with a lot of impatience, especially for like interacting with other humans. So I'm trying to slow down, which just makes me breathe, which also gives me a lot more grace for other people, ‘cause I feel like in this world we all just need grace.

And we all just need to be patient with each other and to be kind. And when you're moving at a rapid pace, it's very difficult for kindness to catch up with you because y ou're just like, “What are you doing? Come on, get it together now.” So I am trying to slow down so kindness can catch up with me.

[00:32:32] Chris Duffy:
That’s so beautifully said. Last one: what is something that has helped you to be a better human? So that might be a book, a movie, a piece of music, an idea. It could be anything. A person.

[00:32:42] Tiffany Mugo:
So the first thing would be the Year of Yes, by Shonda Rhimes. The cover was serving self-help and I was like, “No”. And then my phone died, I know. My phone died for a weekend, so I read the whole thing and that book like, highkey just changed my life, right?

And the second thing is this human right here. Like no, legitimately like, has taught me so many things about myself, has shown me like my best parts, my worst parts. Like it's, yeah, this human right here.

[00:33:15] Siphumeze Khundayi:
For me, sure there’s so many things. I think my, my art, my work as an artist has taught me a lot, and it has taken me to so many different types of contexts, you know? And I've learned so much through the work, and through the work itself and the people that I've met there. And then I would say that HOLA is the biggest, biggest game changer in my life actually.

Because everything that we've had to publish, we read, and you know, it teaches you so much. How other people speaking their stories teaches you so much about yourself. And you get to know so much about your gaps, and you get to know about the strengths that you didn't realize. You get to discover your own sexuality.

I discovered my sexuality because of this organization and the work that we do and the conversations that we have with queer people, you know? I learn so much from every single person that we meet, and I think that's why we, we give so generously to HOLA because it gives to us so generously. We grow with every single thing. So, biggest, biggest life changer for me.

[00:34:30] Tiffany Mugo:
Really, you’re not gonna say me?

[00:34:32] Siphumeze Khundayi:
Well, you are such a core part of HOLA. You are like the anchor.

[00:34:37] Tiffany Mugo:
Too late now. It's too late now. Now we're fighting on the podcast again.

[00:34:40] Chris Duffy:
Uh you know, you gotta go out on some drama that's a cliffhanger for what will happen next.

[00:34:44] Tiffany Mugo:
What happened next?

[00:34:46] Chris Duffy:
Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It has been truly a pleasure to talk to you both, and you're such an inspiration, and also just a joy. You're so much fun. It's great. Thank you so much for, for being here.

[00:34:56] Tiffany Mugo:
No, thank you so much for having us. Yay.

[00:35:02] Chris Duffy:
That is our show for today. Thank you so much for listening. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to be a better Human. A huge thank you to our guests, Tiffany Kagure Mugo, and Siphumeze Khundayi. They run HOLAAfrica, which is holaafrica.org. You can also read Tiffany's books: Touch, Sex, Sexuality, and Sensuaity; and the Quirky Quick Guide to Having Great Sex.

From TED, our show is brought to you by Sammy, Case, Anna Phelan, Erica Yuen, and Julia Dickerson. If there is one thing that they highly encourage, it is fighting on the podcast. They love the drama.

From Transmitter Media. We're brought to you by Gretta Cohn and Farrah Desgranges, who have also both been tricked into reading self-help books when their phones died.

And from PRX, we've got Jocelyn Gonzales and Sandra Lopez-Monsalve, who could write the Quirky Quick Guide to Making Great Podcasts.

Thank you so much to you for listening to our show. I hope that you have great sex. Oh, God. Oh wow. That was so awkward. I am sorry that I said that. Please keep listening. Anyway, we will be back with more next week.