How to have a say in how society is built (w/ Tessza Udvarhelyi) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy: 

You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Lemme tell you one of the most dramatic moments from my time as a middle school student. I had run for and won a seat in student government. I was very happy about that. Now, unfortunately, the student government meetings ften happened at the same time as other extracurricular activities that I was already doing.

So, at the first semester that I was on the Student Government Council, I ended up missing about three meetings over the course of the semester. My friend Ben was also in student government, and while he was reading the bylaws, something that I think no other representative had ever done, he discovered that if anyone missed three or more meetings there was a provision in the student government that said that the other representatives could hold a vote to impeach that member, and Ben thought that that was a hilarious idea and so did the other kids on the council. 

So they held a vote and they successfully impeached me. I was the first, and to my knowledge, the only eighth grader in my school's history to ever be impeached.

I was stunned, but you know what? I was also impressed. You know, I love a good bit. So while that ended my political career right there, it may very well have planted the seeds for my comedy career to begin. Outside of middle school, one of the big areas where we humans express our views about how we would like the world to be is in politics.

And on today's episode, we are gonna talk about politics. We're gonna talk about political organizing. And we are going to talk about elections and freedom and democracy, and that is because regardless of where you live, the global rise of authoritarianism and political repression affects you. Tessza Udvarhelyi, a Hungarian activist and academic lives in a country Hungary, where an increasingly authoritarian and repressive government under President Viktor Orbán has tried to silence and intimidate critics, but Tessza has not been silenced.

They have not stopped Tessza from fighting for freedom and fighting for democracy. Here is a clip from her TED Talk. 

[00:01:59] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

If you ask government propaganda about me, I'm a public enemy and a foreign agent who is trying to destroy Hungary. This is why they have been harassing, smearing, and targeting me over the past 10 years.

If you ask me about the government, they are a bump in the road, a Himalaya size bump, but one that we will definitely overcome. And I want to stop for a moment here. I'm not talking about my country to make you feel sorry for us. Instead, I would like you to think about the place where you live. Do you have a say in how things are happening there?

Do you feel you have power? And I'm not asking you if, if you can vote or if you have a constitution, because we have both and we still don't have democracy. What I'm asking you is whether it's ever possible to achieve change from below.

[00:02:54] Chris Duffy: 

We are gonna answer that question and talk a lot more about change and grassroots activism in just a moment.

Today we are talking about grassroots activism and fighting authoritarianism with Tessza Udvarhelyi. 

[00:03:15] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Hi, my name is Tessza Udvarhelyi, I'm an anthropologist and an environmental psychologist by trading and also a political educator and an activist. 

[00:03:25] Chris Duffy: 

You have, uh, your degree, your PhD is in environmental psychology, which I think that's a field that many people aren't necessarily familiar with.

So can you walk us through what, what does it mean to be an environmental psychologist and how does that play out in your work? 

[00:03:37] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Yeah, I didn't know what environmental psychology was when I started my PhD. I'm originally an anthropologist by training. I did my studies in Budapest, Hungary, and then I went on to do my PhD at the City University of New York at the Graduate Center Environmental Psychology.

At the time that I studied it, there was a very interdisciplinary field with geographers, anthropologists, psychologists, sociologists, all working to understand how space determines human behavior and how spatial relationships determine how societies work. And I really love this field, especially because I really love cities and the environmental psychologists often work with cities and they try to figure out how to create cities that are just and democratic and inclusive. 

And they use this by trying to understand how space, urban space determines all these characteristics and how we can create cities that lead to democratic and just societies. I don't really define myself as an academic, but this academic field really shapes everything that I do. 

I have been working for housing rights for a really long time, and I was working for a local government where really the local relationships and how local space is organized is every, is everything. And I consider myself an activist who is fighting for everyone to be part of the city and for everyone to have access to all the resources that a city has to offer.

So I think what I'm doing is basically environmental psychology put into action. 

[00:05:06] Chris Duffy: 

You know, there's something really interesting about what you said there to me, which is. The idea that the, the like physical environment of the city can affect the way that it is either just or democratic or unjust or anti-democratic.

I think that many people think about justice and democracy as solely the actions of people. But it seems like it ties into a lot of your work that it's actually much more than just the decisions that people make and the ways that people act. 

[00:05:33] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Right. And I think this is also rooted in a lot of my personal experience.

Like for example, just imagine if you have ever cycled in a big city. I think very quickly you realize how cities are built for certain kinds of transportation and are not built for other kinds of transportation. And if you cycle in a big city that has not been created for cyclists, but for cars, for example, then you realize instantly that everything, the way the the streets are built, the way the lamps are timed, the way rules are created.

All favor a certain mode of transportation. And if you represent a minority mode of transportation, then you instantly realize that, “Oh, this world is not created for me.” But then when, for example, as it happened with me in Budapest that I started biking, I would say 25 years ago. And then 10 years into my biking experience, they actually started developing bicycle infrastructure in the city.

And I suddenly started to feel more and more welcomed and more and more comfortable because the space was created in a way that actually made me feel safe and not an outlaw or not a weird thing moving around, but as a natural part of the environment. And I felt included and I felt that I was no longer uh, endangered by, for example, car traffic, but I was considered equal. 

And just by putting in bike lanes and changing rules and teaching other drivers in cars to respect cyclists, then you realize that if you change the way the space is organized, then people actually feel can feel more equal and more included.

[00:07:02] Chris Duffy: 

That is, I think many people would argue is, is kind of at the heart of why democracy building and civic society building are important, is to make people have that feeling that you had 10 years into cycling. 

[00:07:12] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

I think my most important or most formative activist experience was in the Cities for All, which is a housing movement in Budapest, which I was one of the founders of.

And the, the special thing about that group was that homeless people and people with homes were working together to basically fight for the right to housing. And there, when we started working together, these two very different groups, people who have a comfortable life, who have a safe home to go to, and people who live on the street or in shelters or in self-made shacks in forests.

When they start working together very quickly, all the inequalities just come out esp, for example, in how we lead our meetings or how we organize things. And for example, in that group, in, I would say in the first six months or one year, most of our time was devoted to creating an environment, not physical, but also just the rules of how we interact in the group in a way that allowed people, for example, with lower levels of education or even illiterate people, or people who have never participated in a group or never ever had to speak in front of more people or never had to make decisions or never had to organize a protest.

And we created an environment where we leveled the playing field by asking people who have higher levels of education and who are more confident to step back and to encourage people who have never had this kind of experience of involvement to take a step forward and actually take responsibility and be active.

So we never achieved the right to housing in Hungary. I hope we will, but we have not achieved it yet. But most of the homeless people who were, who were in our group were saying that it doesn't make them sad because what's happening to them is that they start to feel like they are part of Hungarian society because what they do actually matters.

And when they organize a protest, politicians actually have to listen to them and have to say something about what they express as their needs and opinions. So this is how we create the space for them to participate in democracy. But we had to make a lot of effort to do that. It doesn't come naturally.

[00:09:12] Chris Duffy: 

You know, I often think when I'm talking to people who are, um, advocating for societal changes or for laws. How do you keep hope alive even when it seems like your particular issue is maybe not improving or the law that you're advocating for is not gonna pass? But what you just said makes me think about it in a different way, which is that the process of participating in democracy in and of itself carries a lot of benefits for the people who are involved.

Even if you don't succeed in passing the the right to housing, you have done something by simply getting these people all involved and feeling like they are part of this movement and part of society. 

[00:09:50] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Yeah, and I think that's, it's, it's really important and it's part of what Paulo Freire, who was an educator, a Brazilian educator, and the founder of critical pedagogy, he calls it self humanization or humanization, and what he means by this, and I have experienced this firsthand, not only with homeless people in our group, but with myself that as you start to feel more like a human, you start to feel more responsibility and more self confidence and more, and you start to have actual legitimate needs that you are not whining and you are not complaining, but it's actually your need and your right and that you deserve to have that, for example, housing or decent food or decent he healthcare.

And I think political participation is part of being a full human being. So I think that if you live your life without having power over what's happening to your life and not only your personal life, but your, for example, your immediate surroundings or the kinds of services that you get, if you don't feel that you have influence over them or, or if you don't have power over them, I think that you feel less human.

You feel like a second class citizen. And I think it's really important that this is not only happening to poor people or to oppress people, like homeless people who are one of the most dispossessed people in the world, I think. But for example before, before I organized this group with homeless people, I went through the same process.

So I just lived my life as a regular, you know person from a middle class background, from a safe home. And then it took me a while to actually realize that I'm also a political being that I don't have to only care about my own life, but I have responsibility for other people's lives and that what's happening in my country, I have to do something with it.

It's not something that's happening to me, but it's actually something that I'm doing together with other people in my country. So I had to go through this politicization or I would say re-humanization process where I actually came into my political self and realized that, “Oh yes, I'm part of this political community and I have something to say and you have to listen to me.”

And of course they will not always listen to you. But the more you fight, I think the more experiences you have that you actually have an impact on things, even though you may never achieve your biggest dreams, but there are a lot of smaller wins that you get along the way, and I think that gives you a lot of a big sense of power that then helps you move on.

[00:12:06] Chris Duffy: 

So for people who are listening wherever they are, what are some of the things, the practical steps they can do to rehumanize themselves to think of themselves as a political being? What are some of the first steps that, that you'd recommend people take? 

[00:12:19] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

I. I would recommend that they, that they, well, they start reading the news or listening to the news.

[00:12:25] Chris Duffy: 

Mm-Hmm. 

[00:12:25] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

But in a critical way. You know, it takes some courage to actually like listen to political news, but I think it's worth it. But also, you don't have to listen to political news. You just have to you know read and listen to news that's about society and not only about the individual. So for example, not only about personal wellbeing, but about, you know, how my city is doing, how my country is doing.

Also, I would say that if they have a problem and everybody has a problem, always, If you send your kid to a kindergarten, there will be conflicts with the other kids, or in your street there will be potholes or in your, in the house where you live the other neighbors will not behave the way you want.

So everybody always experiences problems. And I think the trick is to not complain. To not be like, “Oh, this is a really bad building. This is a really bad kindergarten. This is a really bad school, but how can we fix this? And also, who else has this problem?” Because you will always realize that there are other people who have the same problem, and my experience is that if more people who have the same problem or same issue, or they want to fix the same things, if they start to work together, then first of all, they will have a bigger chance of actually fixing the problem.

And second, I know it's a cliche, but the power of community that it it actually matters when you share a problem with other people, then you don't feel that you are a failure or that you know it's your fault or that you deserve less than the others. But you realize that it's a shared collective problem that we have to solve.

And my experience is that it's a little bit like a drug. Like if you solve one problem together. Then you'll be in the mood to go on and solve other problems together. 

[00:13:58] Chris Duffy: 

Mm-Hmm. 

[00:13:58] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

And then usually those problems will grow in scale. You know, like first is the school meals, and then you will realize that, “Oh, we need a new play court in the neighborhood. Oh, well we need a new mayor in the district. Oh, maybe we should change the prime minister of the country.” 

You know, like when you feel that you have power over things done, over how things work, you get hooked on it. I think that's how you start to organize on a bigger scale. 

[00:14:19] Chris Duffy: 

Whenever people ask like, how do you write a joke?

I'm always like, well, the, the first thing is find something that you think is kind of annoying, a small thing that's bugging you, and then it probably is gonna connect with other people. 

[00:14:29] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

And I think my statement is that from that small problem, you can gradually get to regime change if you work hard enough and with a lot of people.

[00:14:37] Chris Duffy: 

Yeah. 

[00:14:37] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

But also I think it's true in another sense too, which is the slogan of The School of Public Life, which is also a grassroots organization that that I founded, which is that democracy is not a noun but a verb. And it only exists if we do it. So it's not something that is there for you to enjoy, but it's actually something that you have to make every day.

I would say unfortunately, every minute it's always in the making. So you can't o only go for the big things, but to solve and be involved in the solution of a lot of small problems because that's how democracy is created. It's made up of a lot of small solutions and a lot of small problems too. And if you let go of the small things and you only focus on, “I have to win the big fights.” Then a lot of things will fall apart underneath you.

[00:15:21] Chris Duffy: 

How do you define democracy? I like what you just said, that it's, it's not a noun, it's a verb, but how, what do you think of as democracy? 

[00:15:28] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

I would say that democracy is a system where the people who are most affected by issues to influence those issues or to who have the power of decision in those issues it's not a system where you have the chance to voice your opinion because that's, it's one thing to be able to voice your opinion. 

That's already a big step, that you actually have the courage and somebody's listening to you. But this, it's not enough to voice your opinion, but it's a system where those who are directly affected by issues have a role in making the decisions.

So it's not an elite group of people who can make decisions, but it's as wide as possible, a group who are making the decisions, which doesn't mean that there is no structure. It doesn't mean that there is no hierarchy. It doesn't mean that there is no, you know, shifting of responsibility. Like I don't imagine democracy as something where it's always everybody doing everything and everybody making all the decisions together, but it's, you know I believe in representative democracy where we elect representatives and we elect decision makers. 

But I also believe that in democracy only works if those decision makers are under the control of the people who are affected by problems. And when I say affected, I mean directly, but also indirectly. So just because somebody doesn't live somewhere where there is something that they, they they don't agree with, but it goes against their values and they consider themselves part of the community. 

It means that they are indirectly affected. It goes against their values. Then they also have a right to say in that decision. 

[00:16:58] Chris Duffy: 

This ties into, I, I know a word that is at the core of a lot of your work, which is grassroots. So what does it mean for a movement to be grassroots?

[00:17:06] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Um, to me it means that it reflects the needs of real people so that it's not an abstract idea that we are fighting for. So for example, we could fight for the right to housing or the right to education, but it's very abstract. And for me, for movement to be grassroots means that people who are denied that right are involved and the demands reflect their needs and their specific needs. 

Uh, so that's one thing. And the other thing is that I think a movement can only be grassroots if people who are directly affected are involved in positions of power and not just political ideologies or the ideas of people who study these problems or policy makers who are all very important players.

But I think in a grassroots movement is the people who are affected, who have the most say in what's going to happen. 

[00:17:57] Chris Duffy: 

That feels like a, a beautiful definition, but also a really powerful goal to be working towards the, uh, and a tangible goal. It makes me wonder if part of this is broadening out your idea of who is in your community.

It's easy to think that my neighbor is the person who lives in the house next to me and the two couples who live in the apartment building. That's, those are my neighbors, but it changes things. If I think my neighbor is also the person who is living in a tent under the overpass two blocks away, if that person is my neighbor, what are my responsibilities to that neighbor and to us as a community?

Or is that person outside of the community and I don't have responsibilities to them? That seems like a really core moral question, but also really practical question when you think about how you act in in the world in your everyday life. 

[00:18:44] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Yes, I totally agree, and I think it's a big question of who we consider a member of our political and moral community and who we put outside, especially of our moral community.

And in the last five years, I have been working in a local government in Budapest because a mayor from a local grassroots organization was elected. I'm, I was on his staff and this issue of who is a member of our community and who we consider our neighbors and who is a resident of the eighth district where we work.

It's a big issue because this is a very divided district with a lot of foreigners, uh, a lot of homeless people, a lot of poor people, a lot of people coming from the countryside who are newcomers to Budapest, and these are all social divisions that a lot of political players. They kind of exaggerate and they try to win by dividing these groups and saying that, you know, the real eighth districts are the ones who have been living here for 25 years and all the others are not us.

And you know, it's always an us versus them. And in the past five years when we have been, I would say in power because people elected us. So we have been running the local government. It's been one of the biggest challenges to call everybody a districtor or even, for example, the homeless people who live in homeless shelters.

And we say that they are our neighbors too, and it's really difficult for people to accept that. And what we have been trying to work on is to actually create a district where people believe that it's the newcomers and the foreigners and the people who don't have a permanent address, and the homeless people and the kids and the elderly, that they are all members a part of the district.

And that we are trying to create an identity where we all accept that we are part of the same community. And in that sense, I'm kind of glad that I'm also an anthropologist because I understand how human cultures, that this is not, people are not creating these divisions and this us versus them and inside, outside, because they are bad people.

But because this is how identity works and this is how culture and society works, we can change it if we create the sense that a moral community is broader than the people who are similar to you and that you can share some things with the others too. Then I think that this is the first step in then creating a more like a political community too, but first it has to be the moral community where you feel that you are part of the same community that the people that you don't necessarily lack.

[00:21:06] Chris Duffy: 

We will be right back after this break

And we are back. Here is another clip from Tessza's TED Talk. 

[00:21:24] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

What you see around us as your reality determines what you believe is possible. If you only see fear and passivity, you will not be able to imagine anything beyond that. But if, if you experience alternatives to social and political oppression, you will be able to not only imagine, but create a different future for all of us.

[00:21:44] Chris Duffy: 

Sometimes it, it's quite easy on the outside as an activist to have these real pure lines to a line where you know, this is black and this is white, this is wrong, and this is right. So I'm curious, as someone who's worked on both sides, who's been an activist and on the outside advocating for change and now who is working in government, how do you balance those ideals with the practical pieces of making and enacting legislation and change?

[00:22:09] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

So, yes, it's a huge challenge. And when I was outside and when I was, you know, like when I was fighting local municipalities and trying to convince them to provide housing or not to evict someone or to be fair, I didn't know that it was easier outside. But now that I'm inside, I know, I wouldn't say it's easier on the outside, but it's definitely less complicated, I would say.

And when I started to work at the local government, I say, I would say that it, over the first year, I cried almost every day. Because it was so difficult to understand that now we are here, now we are in power, so let's do everything that we have wanted to do over the past 10 years and let's fulfill all of our campaign promises in five seconds.

[00:22:50] Chris Duffy: 

Mm. 

[00:22:50] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

And then you realize that, “Oh no, that's not how public service work. That's not how bureaucracy works. That's not how democracy works.” Because you know, things have to be voted on by a majority and not everybody agrees. So then you have to convince people and you have to make compromises. Once you learn the ropes and once you learn the kind of inner games of the local government, just like every activist does, we have to learn how legislation is made and who we have to, you know, influence and who we have to talk to and who we have to hate, and who we have to play against each other.

It's the same thing in the local government. So since I started working in local government, I think I have become, and I know this sounds weird, but wiser in the sense of I always have to think about more people than just who I am representing. You know, like, like I have to think about other perspectives.

How does it affect other people? How to, how to find a solution that will be good for everybody and not just for the small group that is really dear to me, or the small group that managed to find me and this love being me? But let's find a solution that will actually be good for more people in the long run and, and, and include more needs in how we spend local resources.

[00:24:00] Chris Duffy: 

I'd like to transition to talk a little bit about your specific situation. You are in the eighth district. You are having this moment where it feels like you actually have some ability to make some big changes, and yet in the broader sense, I would imagine you don't feel like things are moving in the right direction overall in Hungary.

So how do you balance the changes that you want versus the sliding of anti-democratic norms in the place that you live and love? 

[00:24:32] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Mm-Hmm. Yeah, that's a difficult thing and that's why many of my, my friends have already left this country and sometimes think that I'm crazy that I'm still here, but I am still here and I want to be here.

Yeah. So Hungary is becoming worse and worse politically and socially and economically. It's a semi authoritarian country. Definitely. And at the national level, it's not a good place for most of the people I believe. I am personally very devoted to my city, which is Budapest, and the eighth district is in Budapest.

I consider it my home, and I would consider it giving up my home if I gave into pessimism or if I gave into this feeling that hunger is hopeless. But also, I think more importantly, I feel that over the past, I would say 15 years, I have been involved in creating a model, a political model that can be an alternative and a way to dismantle the authoritarian system.

So we started the work 15 years ago with housing and as activists, we had a lot of conflict with the leadership of this very district, which was really badly criminalizing homeless people and punishing them and very mean to poor people and everything. And the fact that we are in power now is partly due to that struggle that we waged 10, 15 years ago.

And, and the grassroots candidate, the mayor, also comes out of the housing movement. So it's basically the housing movement was give, gave birth to this new political structure that is now empowering our district. And a lot, most of the policies that we have implemented over the past five years are the demands of social movements, housing movement, environmental movement, children's rights movements.

So I believe that this can be a model for changing the whole city and the whole country. Unfortunately, it's not a model. Obviously that is going to bring fast change, which is. A little bit disappointing because I thought it would go faster, but if we get reelected, then it means that it, it wasn't a mistake then I think it can be a model for all of Budapest and all of Hungary to change in the long run.

[00:26:33] Chris Duffy: 

That's such a, a, a beautiful and hopeful vision, and I hope that it does come to pass in that way, but what do you do when it feels like convincing the most people might not necessarily be enough? You know, sometimes I, I feel like I have to remind myself that if you are advocating for like a broad idea like you know, or justice or housing or you know, the right to food.

All, all of these pieces, it can feel like the forces against you are kind of a monolith, but even the other side is made up of people and people can be convinced. If there's 10 million people that disagree with you, it can feel like changing one person's mind isn't a big thing, and yet it is the only thing that can change 10 million people's minds is to change minds one at a time.

[00:27:19] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Right. And I also, I think it also probably comes from my, the own definition of democracy, which is that democracy struggle, like democracy is not peace. It's not a conflict free, nice coexistence. I believe democracy only works if there is struggle and conflict and there are different interests and people are always articulating those interests and, you know, pushing and pulling and trying.

But just because it's difficult, it doesn't mean that it's bad. I mean it's really difficult now in Hungary, but it, there are places where it's a lot more difficult. Even if things were really good, I think I would be an activist. I would struggle for the things that we still don't have. And also just our example, like it is not a monolith and it's important.

And you know, I have, even in my TED Talk, it was really important for me to talk about this, that when people hear Hungary, they think that is the same as our Prime Minister. And they think that is this authoritarian system that nobody wants to live in. Well, I love living in this country e even with all the political madness, and I work in a district where very progressive leaders are in power and very progressive policies are implemented, so it's not a monolith.

[00:28:27] Chris Duffy: 

Hmm. For young people especially, it doesn't have to be young people, but I imagine that young people are the ones most often in this situation who are working on their first campaigns or, or getting involved with issues for the first time, whatever those issues may be. What advice would you have to someone who is listening, who is involved with something that they feel really deeply about, whether it is foreign policy or domestic policy, or the environment, whatever it is.

They feel really strongly about it, and yet they're hitting this first wall where change isn't happening as quickly as they would like, or they've had a setback, their protest has been shut down, or the law that they were advocating for didn't pass. What would you say to them in that first moment of experiencing it not going as smoothly as they would've liked? 

[00:29:12] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Hmm. Well, I would refer back to, um, to an important learning that I received when I started being an activist. I would say back in 2004 or 2005, when we were organizing what, what we call the Night of Solidarity, which meant that for one night. Activists and homeless people were sleeping out together in public space in the middle of December, so it was really cold.

[00:29:36] Chris Duffy: 

Mm. 

[00:29:36] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

It was to show solidarity to people who were forced to live on the street and before this protest, like 24 hour protest, really it, we knew it would be really long, really hard. And we also knew that probably just because we sleep out on the street. There will be, homelessness will not disappear. So the organizers of that protest, as does before the protest, started to close our eyes and to think about why we are doing this.

And they, you know, like try to imagine the world that you want to live in and why you are doing this really long 24 hour, really cold, you know, it probably will lead nowhere kind of event. And we just took five minutes to, you know, visualize in our heads why we are doing this. And then when we opened our eyes, they told us that.

“Okay, so when you get into a fight with another activist, or when you feel really cold, or when the police comes and they send you away, just think about this image that you have in your head about why you are doing this.” 

[00:30:28] Chris Duffy: 

Hmm. 

[00:30:29] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

And ever since then I've been using this technique. Like every time I feel that there's a really hard thing coming, I'm always trying to visualize in my head why I'm doing it and trying to think beyond the actual thing that I'm going to do, the protest or the campaign or the election, and trying to think about the purpose of why I'm doing this and not just the specific thing because you will mess up. 

Like my biggest message to young activists is you will mess up, but you will mess up. Not once, but like 5 million times. So, but it's fine. Like that's how it works. Like there's no way, there's no perfect activism or no perfect struggle. Like that's the point. It'll not work all the time.

But if you know why you are doing it, then you can actually move past all the, the mistakes and the problems and the, you know, when you're really frustrated and you hate all your friends and you hate everybody, yeah, nothing is working. But if you know why you are doing this, I think it helps. 

[00:31:18] Chris Duffy: 

So we're in a moment in the United States where we are about to have a very high stakes presidential election.

And it feels to me like on the one hand, I love the place that I live and I love my community and the people around me and it seems like, of course I should stay and fight for the things that I believe in, but there is another part of me that at one point was joking and increasingly feels less like a joke where I say, am I being foolish?

Should I leave and move my family out of this place before it is a, a dangerous place? Or, or even if it's not dangerous for me before, it is a a, a country where I, I don't necessarily feel represented or agree with the, the moral and, uh, political choices. That's something that I, I struggle with and I'm curious to hear what, what your thoughts are.

[00:32:14] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Yeah. I think it's also important that just because I'm not leaving doesn't mean that I haven't thought about and I haven't considered it. And then every time I consider it seriously, I decide against it. If I left Hungary and went to live somewhere else, I would probably have an okay life, you know, like an immigrant life, which is, you know, probably a little bit, you know, less comfortable than my life at home, but most probably I would be okay.

But for me personally, it was really important that whenever this thought comes to my mind that maybe I should leave. I actually think about it. Like I don't just dismiss it as being, you know, “Oh, you are giving up, or you are lazy, or you are not, you don't love your country.” Or something like that. A lot of my friends have left, and that doesn't mean that they don't love their country, it's just that they felt that it's safer for their family or it's better for their children.

So I think it just, one thing is to let yourself make the decision that it's okay to think that, and for example, when the, when Russia attacked Ukraine, I think that was a really serious point when I started thinking about, you know, actually our physical safety. I think one thing is that I, I tried not to feel ashamed about this, that I think security and safety are really important.

And I have taken my own personal risk too, but I felt that they were still okay. Like I can still live with them. But I think what makes me stay, one thing is my identity is just, I think it's really important that I, this is where I feel at home and I have had the chance to live in other places and I know the difference between feeling at home and not feeling at home. 

[00:33:47] Chris Duffy: 

Can you tell me some of the things that you love about Budapest? Like the sights, the smells, the tastes, the sounds? What are the, some of the things that make it feel home and make you love it so much? 

[00:33:58] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

But when I was doing my studies in the U.S. when I was in my twenties, sometimes I would dream about myself taking the four six tram, which is a central tram line in Budapest.

And my whole dream was about me sitting on the tram and just crossing the river and watching the city and watching the people. And it was really interesting when I woke up, I was like, “Oh my God. I think this is what homesickness feels.” You know, I wasn't dreaming about, I don't know my mother, who I really love, but I was dreaming about sitting on a tram in my favorite city crossing my favorite bridge.

So I think it's just, there is just something about this place that feels really, really close to me. Of course, I think it's one of the most beautiful cities in the world, so that helps. In environmental psychology, they call it place identity or place attachment. It's um, it's actually a psychological phenomenon when somebody's identity is very much defined by the place where they live or where they work.

And they feel very much like they, if they, that the place is part of them and that they don't, they are not the same or the whole person if they are not in that place. So I think my kind of place identity or place attachment to Budapest is some, is like this. Like this phenomenon. There's no specific reason.

You know, I, I could tell you which my favorite bridge is and which my favorite bike lane. 

[00:35:13] Chris Duffy: 

I wanna know, please tell me the favorite bridge. 

[00:35:15] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

My favorite bridge is the Liberty Bridge. It's a green bridge and it's a very cyclical bridge and the view is very beautiful from it. And I think the most beautiful thing about Budapest is that there is the Danube crossing it and you can cross the bridges as many times as you want because you know, you can walk across any bridge in five minutes or cycle in two minutes.

And you know, and the two sides of Buda and Pest are very different. And I live on one side, but work on the other side, and it's very important for me to cross from these, between these two worlds all the time, and I've been crossing between these two worlds ever since I was born. 

[00:35:49] Chris Duffy: 

How can you get a better, more perfect metaphor than that too, to be like, “I've crossed between these two worlds on the Liberty Bridge. That's why I love this city.” I mean, that's, you can't, you can't wrap it up more perfectly in a symbolic image than that. I love that. That's both literally and symbolically true for you, 

[00:36:06] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Right? Yes. I never thought about that. 

[00:36:09] Chris Duffy: 

Well, thank you so much. It has been a, a real pleasure talking to you. I really appreciate you making the time.

[00:36:13] Tessza Udvarhelyi: 

Thanks so much.

[00:36:19] Chris Duffy: 

That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Tessza Udvarhelyi. She is the co-founder of The School for Public Life. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by a well organized group.

That includes Daniella Balarezo, Banban Cheng, Cloe Shasha Brooks, Lanie Lott, Antonia Le and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles, who believe in freedom of speech and in the responsibility to speak the truth on the PRX side. Our show is put together by a grassroots team of ragtag audio maven Morgan Flannery, Noor Gill, Maggie Gourville, Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzales.

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