How to follow the laws of nature (w/ Nonette Royo) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human, I'm your host, Chris Duffy. I don't know about you, but when I think about protecting the environment and combating climate change, I'm mostly thinking about reducing my own emissions, being mindful of waste, trying to advocate for cleaner energy, things like that.

I don't often think about justice or land rights, but as today's guest, the human rights lawyer, Nonette Royo, passionately argues some of the most important and effective policies are exactly those. If we care about protecting the planet, we should be advocating for indigenous people to own and control the land that they have lived on for generations.

That is Nonette’s belief, and she has been working on this fight for years, as you'll hear, she and her community have literally put their lives on the line. But she has also built a legal framework and an international organization that any of us can get involved with and all of us can learn from.

Here's a clip from her TED Talk.

[00:00:56] Nonette Royo:
Over 20 years ago in my own hometown in southern Philippines, Indigenous Peoples activists all put their own lives on the line as fighters, they protect their forests against illegal loggers, companies, and miners want to take their land. My own fiance, a brave, indigenous young man, was killed in that fight. For years I thought I was a coward.

Unlike my fiance, I chose the pen, not the gun. I chose to set up a legal defense organization. Stood with brave Indigenous women and men as barefoot lawyers. I struggled between hope and fear when they ask, “Can we really trust the laws?”

[00:01:49] Chris Duffy:
There's so much more to say to that question. It truly is Nonette's life work, and we are gonna talk so much more about it right after this break.

Today we're talking with Nonette Royo about protecting the environment and thinking critically about who owns and controls the lands and forests that keep our planet inhabitable.

[00:02:13] Nonette Royo:
Hello, I'm Nonette Royo. I am a lawyer, human rights and environmental lawyer, and I am the executive director of the Tenure Facility.

[00:02:23] Chris Duffy:
Can we start with the family that you grew up in and um, I know your parents were a big part of this journey.

[00:02:28] Nonette Royo:
Yes, I grew up in southern Philippines in a place called Mindanao and an island in the Mindanao Seas is called Camiguin, and that's where my father's from. I have been in Mindanao since birth and growing up and have been exposed to many of the beauty and challenges of the place.

It's called the Land of Promise 'cause it's very fertile and it's also the place where most of the migrants, uh, from the north were positioned, uh, to occupy land that's not really theirs and the land is very much an issue growing up and there have been cases very strongly felt for me as a child where the defense of land and territory had been so intense, such that there are wars and there are people dying in the process.

And so it has been to me a challenge seeing why this needs to happen. And it's very scary as a child to look at this and not find the reasons why it is happening. And I resorted to looking at this more from what solutions could stop it. And it had been clear to me that it's law, it's the right for people to speak about it in places where it's safe.

[00:03:52] Chris Duffy:
I heard in one of, um, the other interviews that you've done, I heard you talk about how there was a, a specific dam project that the World Bank was trying to put into place that was very inspiring to you. The opposition to it was very inspiring to you as a child.

[00:04:08] Nonette Royo:
Yes, as a child, I was looking for places and heroes and one that was very prominent, uh, at that time was the face, the voice and the message of Macli-ing Dulag, the leader in, in the northern mountains of the Philippines, where he was fighting a dam that is coming into his territory, and it is a big dam. It's called the Chiko River Dam Project, and his position was so prominent as a warrior that is using just his words and his call for respect of his territory and the stewardship that they have as a community over their land.

And he was being challenged by the military and the government was backing up this project and the World Bank was funding this project and the military was asking him to prove his rights over this land territory. What I remember was he was very poetic and his face and his expression, he was challenging them.

He was saying, “How dare you ask for evidence of ownership over land that outlives us? How can we own something that outlives us and that nurtures us?” You know, as a people, he was willing to die for this position, and he was actually in the process of resistance, uh, was killed in the, in this period. But what was clear to me was there needs to be a document that provides, it might not be titled because he respects the land as something of a mother and the holder of them as a people, but there must be some document that would represent that.

And that I became more curious about this indigenous time immemorial possession of land and the narrative that goes with that. And so that became my focus when I was studying law. What are the laws and regulations at the time? When the Spanish came to the Philippines and it was taken over and what were those laws and regulations and principles that enabled this kind of legislation that eliminated, you know, rights that existed before those governments?

And uh, turns out there are laws, there are these decisions in the courts that respect them, and that became my depth of my study and the, the reason for my work ever since. The inspiration of protecting territory and nature as part of the people.

[00:06:50] Chris Duffy:
And that is, is very much at the heart of the organization that you run the Tenure Facility.

There's a tension right between the idea that land can't really be owned by one person, but also the idea that the indigenous groups who have lived on and taken care of this land for generations have the right and the claim to control what happens to it. That it can't be exploited by people who are simply arriving later.

So yeah, I'd love to to hear more about how you think about that tension, and also for people who are not familiar with the Tenure Facility, maybe we can start with just. What does the Tenure Facility actually do?

[00:07:31] Nonette Royo:
Yes, the Tenure Facility supports the Indigenous Peoples, like Makli-ing Dulag to produce the instrument, the tenure instrument that shows not only their claims over the territory, but their narrative as a people protecting together this territory, this place.

So it, it makes them more visible. And they're living and life and lifestyles articulated within the language that the law respects. So the Tenure Facility gives funds and support, you know, actually technical support to make sure that they're not alone in this process and that they can afford this process because this is not cheap.

Especially, uh, these times and, uh, especially when territories are large, a big part of the process is community gathering, ritual consultations, visioning and planning and measuring and, you know, flying drones, et cetera. That's why we're here actually, that there's strength to protect the land, the forests that are very significant, especially at this time when climate change is happening, are secured, and more protected.

And in fact, we have found out many times, you know, in our experience that this is true, but now more and more write-ups research has shown that with land tenure, the deforestation or the cutting of trees in the territories are three to four times diminished. It is has been very effective basis for fighting and maintaining the forests, fighting deforestation, and maintaining the forests. Yeah.

[00:09:14] Chris Duffy:
Land tenure and indigenous rights. These are issues that obviously have really strong justice components that they're what's right and what is just, but they also affect everyone. Even if people are not compelled by the, the justice of the work, they're, they should be compelled by the fact that this is essential for all of our survival in the long run with climate change, that keeping indigenous groups in control of their land protects the land. It’s

[00:09:43] Nonette Royo:
Mm-hmm.

[00:09:43] Chris Duffy:
It's a powerful force to prevent climate change.

[00:09:46] Nonette Royo:
It has only gotten stronger the evidence, uh, of this, and it has also become the foundation for global understanding and commitment to support and maintain their rights over these collectively protected land and forests. Most of the 80% of the world's biodiversity can be found in these lands.

They are much more protected in the places where tenure is secure. That's the most important res results of the research. Yeah.

[00:10:13] Chris Duffy:
Can you walk us through one of the victories that you've had in helping communities attain land rights?

[00:10:18] Nonette Royo:
My direct experience is coming from where I had lived longest before I became Tenure Facility and was Tenure Facility supporting Indonesia.

So a, a big part of the Indonesian forests are still intact. I think there's at least a million hectares, 900,000, 800 to 900,000 and a million depending on how, uh, you look at it are, are still with forced cover. In Indonesia, what has been happening in these places where the expansion of huge industrial tree plantations and oil palm plantations and mining are going into indigenous people's territories.

So what we have done in the places where we have supported the partners to be stronger in, in, in the area of just ensuring that there is tenure instrument that allows them to, uh, manage and protect places where the area has been declared officially as forests. But they have lived in these places. They are not forest.

These are their homes. So they have been, because of the evidence that we have provided and submitted to government, the government has now advanced and recognized and maybe issued instruments that declare these areas as Indigenous Peoples territories and have, uh, been now actively protected by Indigenous Peoples.

We're collecting the data sets with a million million 500,000 hectares in different contiguous territories that are now in this state of government official recognition. And as a result of that. I would very much like to raise the sport in places that we have seen if this is listed, so we have the lands of Borneo, so Borneo is Kalimantan.

Yeah, in in Indonesia where huge contiguous forests along the borders of Malaysia that connects Indonesia. So that's really the heart of Borneo. A big part of that now, especially in the places where the areas had been mapped, the Indigenous Peoples had been marked and regulated as managed by in Indigenous Peoples in Kapuas Hulu in Sungai Utik and the industrial tree plantations and even the oil plants, palm companies kit could not go in and expand in these places and the lakes around these region, lakes have dried up and some parts of the lake now it's regained that water it's back.

Obviously, it's been a challenge to keep. That area forested for the threats that's coming in. But there's been resistance and the, the resistance is not, not violent like other places because there's tenure in this, in the territory there. Yeah. Just one area. Def there are many others. Yeah.

[00:13:23] Chris Duffy:
That makes me wonder, what are some of the misconceptions that people have about your work and about Indigenous Peoples attaining land rights?

[00:13:31] Nonette Royo:
So the, the first is that once they get title, they get sold out. It's a temptation by the leaders that they would sell out and destroy. This is of course ridiculous, almost funny, because where we are working in the Tenure Facility, we have found that the areas where there are contiguous forest, there are communities there that are under threat and they're defending it.

So there are conversions that's happening. There's some stories of sort of migrants cutting and burning forests, uh, become sort of identical sometimes with what they say.

These are the people you're protecting actually destroyers of forests.

[00:14:09] Chris Duffy:
When you say that people are worried that they would sell out, what do you mean? Like that they would get property rights to land and then immediately sell it to one of the corporations or businesses that's trying to destroy it.

[00:14:19] Nonette Royo:
What's interesting is that the collective titles that we are, have been supporting are not for sale. They cannot be sold. They cannot even be, uh, what do you call mortgaged?

[00:14:33] Chris Duffy:
Hmm.

[00:14:33] Nonette Royo:
So, so that's really been the, the strength of the territorial governance and the common pool resources, as we call it, it's under, for example, the Nobel Prize winner, Elinor Ostrom has described this work of Indigenous Peoples and open communities.

So protecting common pool resources, that's how they treat the resource for them, it's culture, it's place, it's the responsibility of protecting that which protects them. Because the dependence on the land is very strong and very significant for their culture, so you can't penetrate further into the deep forest because of the communities living and protecting them right there at the fringes. Yeah.

[00:15:20] Chris Duffy:
How do you get people to think differently about land and property? To go from thinking about land as a resource to be exploited to a communal good, to be protected, how do you get people to think about it in those ways?

[00:15:37] Nonette Royo:
I think could probably be communicated by showing how we, how Indigenous Peoples treat themselves as part of nature are not separate from nature.

When we harvest and when the, you harvest from nature, so let's say berries, you don't take everything, you leave some things for others. So take only what you need. Leave the rest for the others to also access. That's the principle or the value that is, is key. And then essentially do not do something that destroys the land because you can be destroyed also.

So it's everything is related. The levels of vulnerability of the people became also the power and the strength of the relationship of protecting nature.

[00:16:32] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a short break and then we'll be back with more from Nonette right after this.

And we are back. As you've already heard, Nonette's passion and her dedication, they did not come out of nowhere. They come from a long family and community tradition. And here is a clip from her TED Talk where she tells the story of how she grew up.

[00:16:59] Nonette Royo:
As a kid, I would go to the forest with my father, a healer.

He would take me by the hand and whisper, “Tabi Po! Permit me to respect spirit, the majesty of giant trees.” Often he would look me straight in the eye and say, “Spirits, forests, lanzones. They nurture us. You nurture them back. You work with the people who know how.”

[00:17:31] Chris Duffy:
Nonette in that clip you talked about working with the people who know how in the work that you do now you partner with not only Indigenous communities, but also governments and international nonprofits and other organizations.

So how do you think about all of the worlds that you're creating bridges between in your work?

[00:17:47] Nonette Royo:
So Indigenous Peoples, they don't have the same ways of lifestyles as the people still living in the city. What I have seen is that the longing for nature is in each and every one of us. And the in Indigenous commun Peoples and local communities, they are actually the ones, the, the communities that maintain that, which we need for our own, uh, health and, and survival and peace of mind.

My foot in, in the towns and cities and governments and the legal system allows me to use the understanding of what they value and their language that I can use to bring to the Indigenous Peoples about how to present the information they need.

[00:18:38] Chris Duffy:
So much of your work involves having one foot in two different worlds.

You have one foot in the world of Indigenous Peoples with whom you spent an a lot of time and you have personal connections to, and then you also went to law school and work with governments and international organizations and corporations. How do you think about managing, having one foot in each of those worlds?

[00:19:03] Nonette Royo:
Yes. Managing one foot in government and another foot with Indigenous Peoples required that I ensure that I bridge the two worlds. And what's important is that we depend on each other. Where the Indigenous Peoples are is where nature is most intact and is providing a very unique and integrated ecosystem for the cities and the towns and the water systems, and they're not very visible.

And where I am with government is when there are laws and policies and systems to protect citizens, and so they're not visible as citizens Indigenous Peoples and government needs to understand that, that they too are members of society and they are actually playing a key role, especially in today's world where the commitments to climate and biodiversity are very prominent globally.

So what I have done is ensure that that this, there is a translation and a bridge to the two worlds, and bringing that into an institution like the Tenure Facility has become such a significant space for that to happen. So this I think, is where I feel we need to be connected. Translation and connection and bridging.

[00:20:32] Chris Duffy:
For someone who's listening, who is not a government leader or the head of an important nonprofit or something like that. If they're just kind of a regular person, but they really believe in this and they care about this, what can they do to be involved and to further this kind of work?

[00:20:47] Nonette Royo:
I think first it's an important internal decision that can be respected and enabled and allowed to shine within us, our longing for nature, that actually means our longing for the connection within an ecosystem less broader than us humans.

And, uh, the way we can contribute to that is, is in looking at different peoples as diverse peoples. And some are looking backward or some are very different from us.

So, so it is in respecting, it is in being culturally humble, uh, that there's no superior, there's no inferior. It's also in contributing, funding is one way, but the other way is just shifting a lifestyle that is informed by the kind of respect and interconnection and, uh inter being is the word that's being used by many now, including spiritual leaders and Indigenous Peoples and shamans, and even economists of our times. It doesn't have to be very far from us. Yeah.

[00:21:52] Chris Duffy:
Well, speaking about changing the way that we think about things, you know, in a lot of the western world success in climate activism is often focused on like big governmental changes or corporate announcements or, or large philanthropic donations. But one of the things that's really crucial about the work of the Tenure Facility is that you're also trying to bring, uh, social and cultural knowledge from Indigenous communities into that conversation to think about that social and cultural knowledge as just as essential for change and for the fight against climate destruction as all of these other pieces that.

[00:22:30] Nonette Royo:
Yes.

[00:22:30] Chris Duffy:
That maybe get more attention. So can you talk more about that?

[00:22:34] Nonette Royo:
I think the simple way to look at this is when you look up at the sky and you see that there, there are clouds and that you feel the rain when it falls, you actually in the, in the language of connection, Indigenous Peoples, uh, put a ritual to that.

It's a, a gratitude, uh, and, and and that what they do to, to give back is to make sure the trees are positioned in the land where it, it ensures that water from the rain goes back to, to the soil and, and, uh, waters, uh, not only village, but it goes into the aquifers and it feeds the springs and the lakes and, and the rivers there is in this connectedness a value of sort of giving life back.

So this is where I feel I've witnessed and I have been moved by the intensity of the needing to give life back to the point that they can give their lives up to send the message that this is worth defending. This land is worth defending. And if you actually talk to them about this land, this is not just for us, it's for everyone.

It's our duty to not destroy it. The Indigenous Peoples are telling us and sharing, and they are feeling very, very much under threat at this point because of the endless need for land and for growth and for so many other needs, including right now the need for re-greening.

So, so it's very challenging for us to sort of ask ourselves and for them to ask us what's the limit to this? How are humans going to understand that they are also under threat as we move into the advanced state of exploitation of land and resources? So there's a reminder that is very much lived and experienced by Indigenous Peoples that that shows us that we can do this together.

[00:24:33] Chris Duffy:
How do you think about the fact that Indigenous People, we've been talking about them as though they're, you know, one entity, when in fact there's, you know, millions of different communities each with their own very specific needs and values and challenges.

How do you think about finding solutions that work for the whole umbrella? Or do you not even, do you just think like it is each, a specific solution for that? How, how do you think about bridging that gap between thinking about Indigenous communities as a block versus the individual community and their specific needs?

[00:25:08] Nonette Royo:
What, what's interesting is that they themselves teach us that they can't survive alone. There are protocols and in interactions to the outside world that they value as much as they value themselves as a people, and I've learned a lot about diversity and respect for others from them. They know that there are many types of peoples and they, there is this huge understanding of that sort of set of beings out there that are just not like them.

Some people, some not people, and some are other beings. The shining light on their role and their values actually has opened the space for respecting the many different types of peoples. But the respect part has not been very common to their experience with the outside world. They had been disrespected.

So the the fact that there's a space, yeah, a space where they can share who they are as a people in a more safe way is so important in the growing of these different sort of communities.

[00:26:14] Chris Duffy:
One thing that I'm hearing from you is that one of the reasons why you believe so strongly in these legal tools or instruments as you're calling them, is because collective titles and the idea of land stewardship, they put each of these Indigenous groups no matter where they are or how they are formed, they put them at the center of the conversation about how the land in which they live is used.

So they are, they are not just involved in the conversation, but they are the center, they are the deciders rather than people who are kind of dictated to as has been the case in many of the past.

[00:26:50] Nonette Royo:
Yeah. And, and that's the spirit of, of justice and equity really. They can also be heard. They cannot just be sort of, you know, pay them and just move them out.

That's a huge part of that, uh, experience before. And the survivors of the many genocides and the movements of many communities. What we are having now is a learning from all of those years of being excluded to being included.

[00:27:11] Chris Duffy:
The story of Indigenous People that I often learned, either explicitly or implicitly in my education was that it was a historic story that, oh, there were these things that were done and they were bad, and sometimes tragic, but that's all in the past.

There wasn't almost any education for me about the fact that where I live, there are still Native American communities that are very much active and alive and present, and that these aren't just issues of the past. That's not very big in the conversation. I think some of that is ignorance and some of that is a, a very conscious goal to kind of erase these communities so that there won't be questions about land use.

How do you fight ghat part? Because before you can get to the legal rights, you have to make people be aware that these are even issues that are current and exist in the moment. How how do you do that part?

[00:28:08] Nonette Royo:
Yeah. I think what comes next is where are they? And the key very graphic result of our work is a picture and a map, and a totem of where the communities are and they are now, if you Google them, you can find that they are there.

There's still a question of technology to the extent that there, there's such deep knowledge and information in the maps that have been produced by the Indigenous Peoples that are not yet out there because there's a question of, well, who owns the data? Or what happens to the data, et cetera. But what's going on is they are now seen.

And many of them are still actively at risk defending the territories that are for them, not just for themselves. It's actually for our purposes, for our biodiversity purposes, for all our climate, you know, land use purposes.

Of course it's not uniform. There are sad pictures of sort of diminished territories and there's some that are really recovering and, and doing a lot for themselves and for the world. And uh, some are great stories of, you know, local food becoming very popular and that's been led by Indigenous recipes, the innovations there.

Fabrics and weavings and yeah, all sorts of beautiful, revived cultural art information that's out there.

[00:29:29] Chris Duffy:
I imagine from your own childhood and your own life, you probably have a strong emotional connection to certain physical places. Can you tell us a spot that that has that strong meaning for you, that kind of defines why it's so important to protect these places for you personally and emotionally?

[00:29:46] Nonette Royo:
Oh, it's the spring that, it's a natural spring, a cold spring that has been there forever, in the place where the territory close to my father's land, and it's called the Santo Niño Spring. It has become a tourist destination now, but when I, and it is, it's very well maintained. I stand by this spring and it is as, as healing in a cold sort of fresh and very transparent, you know, way.

You just go in there and you feel like you are washed by just the spirit of the mountains that are surrounding it. And the spring itself and up just above it is where the chocolate farms that are ancient and a lot of other fruit trees and lanzones trees that are very popular in the island.

When I stand there and it's the house of my uncle that's still standing behind that, I see a lot of the ancestors' memories of their faces and maybe I feel them. Maybe I just remember. Maybe I'm longing to, I'm seen more of them. Standing there gives me that almost hair racing experience of just seeing what my ancestors have enjoyed so much and still being able to enjoy it and sharing that with others.

[00:31:15] Chris Duffy:
I, I read that your father was an Indigenous healer and also a Spanish teacher. Is that correct? It's, it's interesting to think about that because I think sometimes people have this idea of Indigenous Peoples as. Isolated as only in one world. But the fact that your father was both, you know, an Indigenous healer and also a teacher of the Spanish language, it to me, it, it's indicative of the way that these lines can be blurred and that like, people exist in multiple worlds.

And so you're, it's not like you're trying to create some sort of hard partition where there's the Indigenous world and then there's the, uh, non-indigenous world. Instead, you're trying to give equal weight and protection to the Indigenous world so that it doesn't disappear under the weight of the other world.

[00:31:59] Nonette Royo:
Yeah. And, and the, the recollection of that strengthens your, my position now, and I know it strengthened my father. His lived experience of being present in the times, but also Indigenous in his practice.

[00:32:14] Chris Duffy:
Say someone who is listening to this show right now, one of the listeners is an Indigenous Person, but for circumstances outside of their control, they're not a steward of their land.

What would be the advice that you would give to that person?

[00:32:28] Nonette Royo:
The land in your heart is a land that can be anywhere. So if you have lost that land. That you, your ancestors, if you don't even have a memory of it. The land where you're standing is where you can reconnect as important is what the heart feels.

The heart's longing is the indication of that land being still present in your heart. I've tried to, to use this exercise to some of the TED participants in some of the sessions where I would, uh, ask them in a group. Facilitated group session, where is the land in your heart? Can you draw that? And I have a big canvas at the back and they just draw anything that shows up.

And it's amazing what comes out because you're not thinking, you're just kind of translating what your heart feels into a canvas and it's magic. There's so many things that come up and so many stories. Yeah. So it is a connection to that. Which is your deepest longing, and if you just allow that, then you're back to that place there.

Some carry pain because the story is painful, but it's a choice we make. And that's, I think, what my father did. He made a choice not to dwell in the pain, but to use that which can heal him and can heal others

[00:33:52] Chris Duffy:
Well. Nonette Royo, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your, uh, wisdom with us and for the work that you do.

I really appreciate you making the time. It was fascinating to talk to you. Thanks for being on the show.

[00:34:02] Nonette Royo:
Thank you, Chris.

[00:34:07] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest. Nonette Royo. She's the executive director of the Tenure Facility. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Daniella Balarezo, Banban Cheng, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine, all of whom are dreaming of visiting an ancient chocolate farm right now.

This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles, who respect evidence and wisdom wherever they find it. On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team who wash our audio in a cold, clear mountain spring, Morgan Flannery, Noor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzalez, and of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible.

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Thanks again for listening and take care.