How to find food in your own backyard (w/ Alexis Nikole Nelson) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be A Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. Growing up in a big city, I did not have much of a connection to the idea of cultivating or finding your own food. Every once in a while, we would buy a potted basil plant from the supermarket, and then I would watch it slowly wither and die because it could not get enough sunlight on our windowsill. 


And now, now I live in Southern California where there are just citrus trees growing on the sidewalk. It is wild. People are out here picking and eating lemons and oranges and pomegranates and all sorts of other fruit on their commute to work. And, while I love that, I have to admit, it still feels a little unnatural to me.
I have only ever viewed city sidewalks as being fertile places for bacteria and disease to grow, not for fruit and food, and yet food growing outdoors free, that's actually the most natural thing that could exist. It is literally nature. So, if you're like me and you feel pretty disconnected from the idea about where food comes from, today's guest is exactly the person to help open our eyes. 


And, if you are already into foraging and gardening and growing food, well get ready to nerd out with someone who shares your passions. Alexis Nikole Nelson is a forager, a cook, and a passionate environmental scientist. She has been thinking about food since she was very, very young. Here's a clip from her TED talk. 


[00:01:31] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
At the age of five, upon realizing that the cows in the field and the cows on my dad's grill were the same cows, I asked my parents if I could go vegetarian, to which they said, “Sure, but let's wait until you're done growing first,” so sure that I would change my mind over the next five to nine years. Well, shortly after my 12th birthday, I took the plunge and I gave up meat completely. 


It took another 12 years for me to give up eggs and dairy. And, now between the veganism and the foraging, I have one of the more eclectic pantries. 


[00:02:22] Chris Duffy:
In just a moment, we're gonna hear all about what Alexis stocks in her pantry and how she finds it out in nature, even when she's living in the middle of a big city. Don't go anywhere. 


Today we're talking about foraging food and nature with Alexis Nikole Nelson. 


[00:04:13] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Hey, hello. I'm Alexis Nikole and I eat wild plants for a living. 


[00:04:17] Chris Duffy:
I feel really lucky because the first time that I ever went to TED was also the time when you gave your talk. So, I actually have gotten to eat food that you foraged and like put out before, which is a really cool thing to be um, able to, to say.
But, let's first start with, for people who are not familiar with this at all, how do you define foraging? Like, what is foraging. 


[00:04:36] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
So, I would define foraging as part science, part art form of being able to go out in the world and use your science brain to recognize these wild plants so you don't die. We hate dying, none of that. 


But, then also using your creative brain to turn these wild foods into really fun, innovative, or just easy dishes. So, it's a whole lot of fun. I feel like it satisfies both halves of my brain in a way that not a lot of other things do.

[00:05:10] Chris Duffy:
Foraging is kind of new for me, but if I was to make a list of my favorite things in the world, like high on the list would be eating things that are delicious, and then also very high would be things that are free.

[00:05:20] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Right?

[00:05:21] Chris Duffy:
And, I love that this combines both of those things. 


[00:05:22] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Right? It's fantastic. It's like, oh, you get to go on a free little scavenger hunt and then you get a treat at the end. 


[00:05:30] Chris Duffy:
So, I, kind of, always associated foraging with like, you live in the beautiful hillsides of like a forest. And, you go out and you find these pristine mushrooms or like leaks or something like that. And…

[00:05:43] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:05:44] Chris Duffy:
…what's really cool is that you can actually forage in almost any environment that you live in. No matter where you live, there could be something that you can forage and eat.

[00:05:51] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Literally everywhere like that I think is always the takeaway I want people to get from my content or any of my writing or my TED talk, is that wherever you are, if you exist there, you can forage there. I live right smack down in the middle of like downtown Columbus, and I forage in my neighborhood all the time.

When I was at TED in Vancouver, I walked out of the convention center and immediately was like, oh, Magnolia Blossoms. Don't mind if I do. 
All you have to do is, is be there and be willing to, you know, put your feet to the pavement for however long you want to. 


[00:06:34] Chris Duffy:
So, just like taking where you are right now in Columbus?

[00:06:38] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:06:39] Chris Duffy:
Where, what's the most recent thing that you foraged? 


[00:06:41] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, man. What is the most recent thing that I foraged? Earlier this week I was foraging American persimmons in our neighborhood. 


One of the neighborhood mini parks has a giant persimmon tree that is just raining fruit down upon empty grass right now. If I don't eat it, the possums and the groundhogs get to have their fill. They still get to have their fill. It's more persimmons than a person could ever need. But, thankfully, my neighborhood is just very community agriculture focused.

So, we also have berry brambles planted everywhere. A lot of people have trees that produce fruit at some point during the season, or nuts or acorns. So, here in my neck of the woods, even though I can like see skyscrapers from the edge of our block, there's a whole lot of wild food to be found most times of the year. It's great.

[00:07:39] Chris Duffy:
I think that I've heard you say in other interviews that you got started at foraging because your parents also were interested in this. 


[00:07:46] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah. I like to say that between my mom's love of plants and my dad's love of cooking, I kind of didn't have a say in the matter and becoming like this. Every time when I was growing up and they'd be like, oh, you're bringing home weird stuff to eat again. 
I'd be like, listen, you made me this way. I don't wanna hear it. 


[00:08:09] Chris Duffy:
Okay. So, for someone like me where I'm, I'm really into this, but I don't, I didn't grow up doing it and my family doesn't necessarily have like knowledge to pass along. I worry when I'm like picking things, like, is this actually what I think it is? 
Or, is this something that's gonna kill me if I eat it? 


[00:08:24] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, yeah. That is everyone's biggest fear going into this, and honestly, that makes me happy. I'm glad that's everyone's biggest fear because… 


[00:08:32] Chris Duffy:
Okay, good. 


[00:08:33] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
It's, it's, it's a real fear to have. And, what I always advise people, especially if they're new forger, is don't be afraid to start small. 


You know? No, no one who you see out here writing the foraging books or making all the cool outdoorsy foraging content learned everything that they know overnight. All of us started with one plant or one mushroom. Got to know that one really well, and then just built on top of that. I do think sometimes people get too wrapped up a bit in the, the danger of it all. 
I'm always like, if you don't know what it is, just don't eat it. 


[00:09:16] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. That's a good rule. 


[00:09:18] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
If you're not a hundred percent sure, simply do not put it into your mouth hole. Problem solved. 


[00:09:25] Chris Duffy:
Okay. That actually feels really, especially to me, that feels really, um, like good life advice and also, like, something that I can, I can master a few things. 


[00:09:33] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:09:34] Chris Duffy:
Because there are a few plants that I, and this is what I've done, is like I've learned a few plants and I'm like, okay. I know for sure that that is, for example, where I live in Los Angeles, I'm like, that is a fig. I know for sure that that's a fig. 


So, I'll taste it. And, sometimes they're really bad and sometimes they're amazing, but like I'm not worried that I'm gonna die when I see a fig treat because it's so distinctive to me. 


[00:09:54] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly, whereas if you took someone outta the Midwest and put them into Los Angeles, then they would be like, oh, I'm actually not a hundred percent sure if that is a fig, so I'm gonna bypass that one, and instead go for something that I feel really comfy IDing like an acorn or a prickly pear, which we weirdly do also have in the Midwest. 


[00:10:16] Chris Duffy:
Really?

[00:10:17] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah. 


[00:10:17] Chris Duffy:
Prickly pear cactus.

[00:10:18] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:10:18] Chris Duffy:
Oh, I wouldn't have thought of that. 


[00:10:19] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yep. We have, uh, a native species, the eastern prickly pear cactus. I have some growing in my front yard. They accidentally get me frequently. 


[00:10:29] Chris Duffy:
For me, when I walk into a new environment and I see a tree or a plant that I recognize, it's so fun to be like. 
Yep.

[00:10:36] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yes.

[00:10:36] Chris Duffy:
I've seen you before. I know you, and each time you get another one, you grow your understanding of the environment around you. 


[00:10:43] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly. Whenever I'm in Los Angeles and I see like a sycamore tree as a tree planting, I'm like, oh, hey buddy. Hey cousin! It's been a minute. What are you doing out here? It's wonderful. It just, it gives you a new way to feel connected to the world around you. And, I think in these days, especially with how isolated so many people feel, that is so important. 


[00:11:09] Chris Duffy:
I'm not gonna ask you what your favorite plant is, because I imagine that's an impossible one to ask. What about, what's a plant that when you see it, you get really excited? 


[00:11:17] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh my gosh. Whenever I see any of the plants in the Passiflora genum, so that's all the passion flowers. I love them. 


[00:11:24] Chris Duffy:
They are so wild looking.

[00:11:27] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:11:27] Chris Duffy:
They literally look like an alien.

[00:11:28] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Alien.

[00:11:28] Chris Duffy:
Landed on earth. 


[00:11:29] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
It really pushes the barrier on what you think a flower can look like. They're so cool and that's another one that always surprises people that we have a passion flower out here too. We call them Maypops, but the flowers look just as wild.

[00:11:41] Chris Duffy:
Wow.

[00:11:41] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
And, I just, I love them. So, every time I'm traveling around and I see any of the members, 'cause they all kind of have those telltale, beautiful, crazy flowers, it just gives me the warm fuzzies. 


[00:11:54] Chris Duffy:
Something that I really, uh, love about you and the way that you engage with the world is, you know, you have this like scientific accuracy, but you also have a really great sense of humor. 


And, then you're also, I think, able to think about these things in a, in a bigger philosophical way. So, I am curious to get your take on, and this is a big question, but like, why you think we are often so disconnected from nature and from the idea of like understanding at the most basic level, the plants that are around us. 


[00:12:23] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Honestly, if we're gonna take it way, way back, the disconnection kind of started with the advent of the agricultural revolution and that makes perfect sense. Nature is hard to predict, it's hard to rely on when it's your only source of like taking care of yourself, your family, your community. So, the first step of disconnection definitely came from us being like, okay, all of these different groups around the world decided these are the plants we're gonna focus in on because these are the most productive, these are the animals we're gonna focus in on because they were easier to domesticate and that immediately others all of the other plants and animals and relegates them. 


For some people to something that they decide is less important to them, affects them less on a regular basis, and then we kicked it kind of at that point of mild disconnection. Like, people would still know the plants and stuff in their area, but also would be much more focused on crops and having a job on the family farm. 


Then you have the industrial revolution, which then had people flocking to cities, you know, all of these places with bricks and with concrete, with a lot fewer plants and animals than people would've been seeing if they were out living on the farm. And, now suddenly you're not having a lot of these, kind of, 
I like to think of them as little mini seasonal holidays that you would recognize while you're out in the country. If you're out in the country, you know, every year the walnuts fall at around the same time and every year the spring beauties bloom at around the same time and you see it 'cause you're out there every day. 


Whereas if you are in the city, unless you're taking the time to get out of the city, that's not something that you are interacting with. You're not seeing all of these little machinations and the day-to-day changes in nature anymore. So, I think that was another point of disconnection. And, now we're also really disconnected from our food. 


And, food was kind of one of the last ways that we were staying connected to a lot of different plant species 'cause we were having to eat seasonally because before things like refrigerated trucks and all of these really high tech, like, hoop houses and warmed spaces for growing plants outside of their season, you would only have tomatoes during tomato season. You'd only have apples during apple season. And, in a way that was keeping people tethered to some of the rhythms of nature. But, now you can have a Granny Smith apple in February, regardless of where here in North America you live. You can have raspberries anytime of the year outside of the like two weeks really, that they're in season every summer. 


And, so this little bit that we were still holding onto with having to know how nature was moving through its yearly cycles, gone. And, we, we're not the ones growing the food, so we're not even, we're not even in the greenhouses, the hoop houses or anything. Even getting to see that aspect of the way that plants grow, people like don't know what plants grow on, trees versus shrubs versus vines 'cause they don't have to. 


[00:16:04] Chris Duffy:
Hmm. It, it makes me think like foraging is, on the one hand, you know, a way to get food and to have a little delicious adventure, but it's also a way to rebuild that connection. 


[00:16:15] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah. I mean, I say it jokingly, but also very seriously that we are all out here trying to process more names than our ancestors ever had to, more information than our ancestors ever had to on a brain that was programmed to like eat berries in a cave around a fire with the same 30 people you've known your entire life. 


[00:16:39] Chris Duffy:
Yep. And, this is the way to get back to that a little bit.

[00:16:42] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Just a little bit. 
Exactly.

[00:16:43] Chris Duffy:
But, you said you don't have to move it to the cave.

[00:16:44] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly.

[00:16:44] Chris Duffy:
You get to still keep your stuff.

[00:16:45] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
You still get to keep your AC, your heat, your refrigerator, no caves, and all of the buggies that come with living in caves. But, it, it definitely feels like when you are out foraging, you are tapping into something very normal, very natural, at least for me.

I dunno, there might be some not outdoorsy people who are like, hmm, I don't know. This is not a soothing experience for me. 


[00:17:12] Chris Duffy:
Do you find it to be soothing? Do you find that to be like a part of, uh, taking care of your health, not just physically, but also mentally? 


[00:17:19] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, absolutely. It's a really meditative practice for me. I realize when I go out into the woods, especially if I've been glued to my phone for the hours leading up to it, you go through a bit of an adjustment period to where at first you feel really overstimulated and you're like, oh, too many trees, too many plants, too many fungi. And, then you start, your breathing starts slowing down. 


You start hitting a groove with your pace while you're hiking and your brain starts kind of being able to like tune into all of these things. You go into a bit of a soft focus. And, for me, I find that incredibly meditative. It really helps me bring down the general anxiety caused by just, you know, existing as a connected person in this world we have built. 


[00:18:18] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick ad break, so slow your breathing, get your mind into a meditative state, and we will be right back. 


And, we are back. So, Alexis, one thing I wanted to talk to you about is how being out in nature and identifying plants, especially in a, in a city or a more urban environment, it also is a way of understanding history in our past. One thing that I've seen is like the more that I learn about the plants in the cities that I've lived in, the more that it is also a history of migration and immigration, right?

[00:18:56] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, absolutely.

[00:18:56] Chris Duffy:
Oh, there's bitter melon here. And, that's because someone brought that, because it was an important ingredient that they couldn't find in the grocery store. So, they started growing it. Oh, there's a loquat tree. 


Someone brought that because they, it mattered to them. There's all of the, the history of, of plants and food that are tied up in it.

[00:19:13] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
I have goosebumps right now, which you, you cannot confirm or deny listener, but I'm, I'm telling you that it's true. When I read about why so many of these non-native plants have ended up where they are, you know, Chris, you're out in Los Angeles. 


Black mustard covers the hillsides and those beautiful but invasive yellow blooms every spring, and that is still a remnant of Spanish missions moving up the coast in California, bringing those mustard, mustard seeds over from Spain and spreading those wherever they were going. Like, a lot of, there's so many stories of people moving from place to place, told in the form of plants.

Sometimes they're invasive plants over here our, kind of, counterpart to black mustard as garlic mustard, which was brought over here because European immigrants were eating it and they knew it wasn't gonna be here when they got here. So, they brought it. Even things that are so quintessentially American like corn brought up from Southern Mexico, Central America. 


Apples, which feel so American now would not be the apples that we know today if we weren't also bringing in like Asian and European varieties to mix with our native crab apples. Like we, we just wouldn't have the apple pies that we Americans, no one loves so much in this day and age and it, it's so cool to see, especially in places like Los Angeles where yes, so many immigrant families will bring entire fruit trees because they know that they will thrive in Los Angeles as opposed to here where when, in a lot of communities where folks from around the Mediterranean have emigrated, they have to bury their fig trees, so they survive the winter.

[00:21:12] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:21:13] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Up here.

[00:21:14] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. I grew up, I grew up in New York and one of the things that I, I remember is like going to Astoria Queens and seeing someone like wrapping a fig tree in a blanket. 


[00:21:22] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yes.

[00:21:22] Chris Duffy:
Like, literally like a warming blanket for the winter. Everyone's like, oh wow, they're tucking in the tree. That's so beautiful.

[00:21:28] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah. Oh, the things that we do for what we love.

[00:21:32] Chris Duffy:
It's true. I, I'm curious, you know, there's this idea of native and invasive and that there's kind of like a hard line between those two, and I wonder what you think about that. 


'Cause I've, I've heard other people say sometimes that they think that maybe that is not necessarily accurate.

[00:21:49] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:21:49] Chris Duffy:
That like the idea of like there's some good native plants and there's some bad invasive plants is actually, it's much less of a binary than sometimes it sounds like.

[00:21:57] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, well, like with everything in life, people love putting everything into black and white boxes, despite the fact that we all exist in a realm of gray colored nuance. I think it is really harmful to mark every single plant that is non-native as harmful in some way, as invasive. Usually within the realm of like forestry and environmental science, invasive is specifically reserved for non-native species that are aggressive to the point of out competing other plants around them. 


Things like black mustard I would consider invasive. Things like Garlic mustard, I would consider invasive. Japanese knotweed and giant knotweed, I would consider those invasive because they do, they're so good at their job, which, and their job is just wanting their progeny to survive, which is like a nice little reminder when people are getting so mad at them, they're just doing what evolution encouraged them to do with no malice, no ill intention, just trying their best.

But, we also have a lot of, I wish people would use the word naturalized a lot more with things like dandelions, even though there is now some conflicting evidence on whether or not some dandelions were native here in the first place. 


But, dandelions I feel like people love throwing around the word invasive, but that little guy is not displacing anybody. In fact, they're actually really helpful for reclaiming spaces where humans have maybe come in and gotten rid of a lot of the vegetation. Those tap roots reaerate the soil help things break apart a little, break down a little. 


They're a really great species to have introduced to a space that, in a few years, you want to be able to put native plants into. I think just like people have spread all over the world, plants have now also spread all over the world, for better or for worse, and being really mad about every instance of that is one, super exhausting, and two, that anger rarely yields anything. 


[00:24:24] Chris Duffy:
You know, it's, I don't wanna push a, a metaphor too far, but it, it really does feel like that distinction that you just drew between non-native and invasive is actually a really applicable one for thinking about being a human in a space, right?

[00:24:40] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:24:40] Chris Duffy:
Is like if you are not a native indigenous person to the land that you live on, how can you be non-invasive? 
Right? Like, not pushing people out.

[00:24:47] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yes! Not pushing people out.

[00:24:48] Chris Duffy:
And, erasing them.

[00:24:49] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly.

[00:24:50] Chris Duffy:
But, instead just being from somewhere else. That's a, there is a, a big important difference between those two things.

[00:24:55] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yes. And there is a way to do that. There can be a recognition of what was already here and there can be an uplifting of what was already here while you are still going about your day-to-day life. 


And, I do think plants like the dandelion or like Common Mallow are a really a, a really sweet metaphor. Of course, things are much more complicated than a single non-native plant coming up in a, a person's lawn.

[00:25:27] Chris Duffy:
What would you say is a good first step for someone who wants to get started in foraging? What should they do first to get into it? 


[00:25:33] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
As much as I'm always playfully yelling at my friends and family to get off of social media, joining a local foraging Facebook group is such a great way to not only meet other people who are already doing the activity and can give you some of the knowledge they already have from foraging in your area, you can just watch what people are posting and get a feel for what's in season in your area.

And, I would say the more specific location wise of a group you can find, the better. You know, I am in a Columbus specific foraging group. I'm in a Central Ohio specific, Ohio specific, Midwest specific. It's such a great way to start getting a feel for the way that things come in and out of season, and a great way to know what you could feasibly be going out and looking for. Nothing's more heartbreaking than reading a book or a post by someone written halfway across the world and then doing a little Google search-a-rooney, and seeing that that plant or fungi exists nowhere in your city.

[00:26:47] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:26:48] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
I get that frequently. That's how I feel living in Ohio when one of my favorite hyper fixations is seaweed. 


[00:26:56] Chris Duffy:
Oh yeah. That's tough. That is tough. Ohio does not have a lot of access to seaweed.

[00:27:02] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
We do not. We do not.

[00:27:05] Chris Duffy:
Thinking about that, that awkwardness that sometimes people feel when they're thinking about going and joining a group, I think that another part of that awkwardness can sometimes be feeling like they are not of the group or don't look the way that a forager is supposed to look. 


[00:27:22] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:27:22] Chris Duffy:
What would you say to people who are, are feeling like that?

[00:27:24] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
The outdoors belong to everybody. Everybody has ancestors who foraged. Literally all of us exist because someone at some point in time in our long lineage of human history was out there knowing what plants and mon, and mushrooms, they couldn't, couldn't eat without dying. 


And, because of that, I feel like it's truly a hobby that. All of us are entitled to reclaiming should we want to. It is hard sometimes, especially if you're joining a group and you're feeling like one of the first people who is not middle-aged and white. I have been that person in the groups, and especially when I started making content, it took a lot of time for some of the older folks in these Facebook groups to even warm up to someone, like, showing excitement in their videos instead of very calmly droning on six feet away from the camera at all times.

[00:28:36] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:28:37] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
But, I think that that adjustment is necessary and it's good for everybody.

[00:28:42] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:28:42] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
But, I do think division always makes things worse. People just ending up in echo chambers where their maybe limited worldview is just bouncing around between other people who share that limited worldview is dangerous, and that's why diversifying, especially a lot of these outdoor spaces is so important.

You know, I can't wait until, I mean, I won't be around for it a hundred, 200 years from now when people will be able to read things about American nature through the perspective of so many different eyes, white men included, everybody from everyone's perspective.

[00:29:25] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. It seems like this is one of the reasons why, I imagine, is important to you that you use the handle black forager.

[00:29:33] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I, when I was starting to make foraging content five, six years ago, the thing that I kept bringing up to another one of my friends who is in the foraging community was, wowie, I don't see anybody in this space, at least anyone who is regularly like churning out content, who looked like me.

And, so when I wasn't making videos at first, when it was just photography and recipes and essays, I wanted people to know, regardless of whether they could see my hands in a shot or see my face, I wanted them to know that it was coming from a black woman, from a person of color, just as a, a gentle reminder that we are in these spaces too.

[00:30:28] Chris Duffy:
And, I think that's really important. But, I also am curious about the times when people are surprised to see you doing what you're doing or foraging because they just don't understand what foraging is. Like, have you ever had someone spot you foraging and have a really strange or interesting reaction to that? 


[00:30:45] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Absolutely. My first year making TikToks, I was gathering some Mugwort around this time of year and two women who were just power walking together stopped in their tracks and were just like, “What, are you doing?” And I was like, “Oh, you know, just gathering some aromatic herbs. I wanted to roast some potatoes tonight and I needed some Mugwort, and here it is.”

Honestly, it was a great interaction. They had so many questions and for them it just wasn't, it, it was just not something they ever expected to see anybody doing. I think my identity maybe made it more surprising, but even if it was someone their own age, I think they would've been really surprised, and those were always really delightful moments when people approach it with just, like, a childlike curiosity. 


I love those times. There are definitely other times when people approach it from a point of apprehension being like, oh my god, I don't know what that six foot tall, very loud, gregariously dressed black woman is doing. So, I'm gonna go ask her about it. But, I like to, I like to think that usually I end up changing that apprehension to delight almost every time. It definitely hasn't worked every single time.

[00:32:08] Chris Duffy:
I used to teach at an elementary school. I taught fifth grade and I remember so clearly that one day we were reading a book, it wasn't even a science lesson or something, it was just a, a book where it kind of came up incidentally, and it said like, and they picked the lettuce out of the ground and the kids were like lettuce comes from the dirt? Oh, that's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard! It grows outta dirt! Which is like hilarious, of course, like you have to learn that at some point.

[00:32:37] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:32:37] Chris Duffy:
But, but the other thing is, and I, I feel like this is maybe, uh, I wonder if this is the, the thing that must not be said in foraging circles, but I'm like they also have kind of point. It's a little gross that things come out of the dirt and that they're fed by poop and like rotting things.

[00:32:51] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yup. Yup.

[00:32:51] Chris Duffy:
I'm like, you know what? It is gross and it's delicious, and that's just how things work.

[00:32:55] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
And, that's life, baby. It is delightful and it is often icky and there are usually bugs. 
That's life.

[00:33:06] Chris Duffy:
That's a great phrase for life. I put that on a T-shirt. I'll buy that T-shirt. You know, your work is about having us reconnect with the natural world, having us value these things which we take for granted or are invisible. And, I think that this, the broader questions of how do we use technology like Generative AI, I think they go to the heart of that as well, right? 


[00:33:28] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Yeah.

[00:33:29] Chris Duffy:
Like, how much do we care about something just being like new and shiny and how much do we want to actually re-appreciate the traditional and more natural forms of knowledge, which sometimes get ignored, even to the place where it can be really dangerous.

[00:33:44] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly. Like, you know, I, I always hear a lot of fearmongering about mushrooms, and I'm just like, listen, outside of a few extraordinarily deadly mushrooms, 
you're gonna have a bad tummy ache, you're gonna have, uh, the poops. But, plants honestly are the ones that will get you if you are not careful. Some of the most poisonous plants in the world are here in North America when it comes to things like Water Hemlock. So, to hear that people are out here just kind of typing into a Generative AI, give me a North American foraging book, as a person who can't go and double check that work, that's, that's terrifying.

And, that could have life altering or life ending consequences. And, I think, and this ugh, would open up a whole other can of worms, but going into foraging either through wanting to disseminate foraging information, or even through selling the things that you are foraging with the sole intention of profit, in my opinion, is really dangerous. 


If it's not coming from a place of love, if it's not coming from a place of reverence for the spaces around you and from a space of just loving what you're finding so much that you want to be able to share it with other people. That's how you end up with like folks in West Virginia harvesting trash bags full of ramps and just completely devastating centuries old patches of plants that grow really slowly. 


A fancy restaurant serving fancy people can serve them these ramps and not give them any story behind them, not give them any way to actually connect to it. Uh, they just get to feel like they won a medal for eating the cool, weird thing that Martha Stewart wrote about.

[00:35:39] Chris Duffy:
Um, since we've talked about some of the, the ways that it can be dangerous to use, not trusted sources, what are some trusted sources that you'd recommend that people seek out? 


[00:35:50] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
My favorite wild food writers, people who just have a really deep love for wild plants, Sam Thayer, Ellen Zachos, John Kallas, Alan Bergo. If you're looking for online content, maybe you're more of a visual learner than, uh, a learner through words, Linda Black Elk is an excellent resource. I believe she goes by @chubbyforager on TikTok, which in retrospect was like, oh, that's real good handle. Oh, I wish I had that handle instead of my, my TikTok just being my name like a fool.

Linda is, uh, an excellent resource and also has done a lot of work, uh, with preserving a lot of indigenous food ways and indigenous plant knowledge as well. They are all an excellent jumping off point. And, the great thing is since a lot of us all know each other, in reading their works, you'll find names of other people who you can reference as well. 


[00:36:56] Chris Duffy:
That's great.

[00:36:56] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Oh, I feel like from the west coast, I gotta give you someone, Pascal Baudar, who lives around the Los Angeles area and teaches there frequently is a great West Coast person for everyone all along the Pacific.

[00:37:09] Chris Duffy:
Well, Alexis, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. 


[00:37:12] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Thank you so much for having me, Chris. This was truly a joy. I feel like my day has peaked now.

[00:37:18] Chris Duffy:
No, absolutely same. It's all downhill from here.

[00:37:20] Alexis Nikole Nelson:
Exactly. 


[00:37:24] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be A Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Alexis Nikole Nelson. You can find her on social media @Black Forager on Instagram, or @AlexisNikole on TikTok. I am your host Chris Duffy, and you can find more for me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects @chrisduffycomedy.com. 


How to be A better human is brought to you on the TED side by edible mushrooms, Daniella Balarezo, Banban Cheng, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine.

This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles, and the many microbiological communities that make up their bodies.

On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team that picks and plucks the ripest freshest audio morsels for you to consume, Morgan Flannery, Noor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzales. And, of course, thanks to you for listening to our show and making this all possible. If you are listening on Apple, please leave us a five star rating and review, and if you're listening on the Spotify app, answer the discussion question that we've got up there on mobile. 


We would love to hear your thoughts. We will be back next week with even more How To Be A Better Human. In the meantime, eat something delicious.