How to find connection –and love– in everyday life (w/ Barbara Fredrickson) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. I love traditions. I love a ritual. I love a routine. I love a repeated action that I can count on. Some of my attempts at creating those traditions, though, have been complete busts. For example, every year on December 12th, when the date is 1-2 1-2, I try to create a holiday where you say everything twice, wear two items of each item of clothing, and generally just try and do everything double.

I call it 1-2 day. And I have to say, this is without a doubt my wife's least favorite day of the year. Every year she sees me walk into the kitchen wearing two hats, two pairs of sunglasses, and drinking from two glasses of water simultaneously, and every year she goes, “Oh God, not this again.” So, look, not every tradition is successful.

Not every tradition is gonna get buy-in from the other people who would have to participate in it. But the beautiful part when a tradition does work is that it's a way for you and the people around you to build memories and to deepen your connection to each other.

Today's guest, Dr. Barbara Fredrickson, is an expert in positive psychology and she's changed the way that I think about love and friendship and how recognizing positive emotions helps cultivate those connections much more deeply.

Barbara looks at what really creates those bonds between us and her research has found that a single big dramatic day, a 1-2 day if you will, might actually be far, far less important than the collection of tiny moments that we experience together along the way. Here's a clip from Barbara's TED Talk.

[00:01:37] Barbara Fredrickson:
I'm here to take love off this romantic pedestal and clear away the Cupids and the cartoon hearts and help you see love from the perspective of science. When you really connect with another person, a, a beautifully choreographed biological dance is unfolding, um, as your smiles, gestures, and postures come to mirror one another and come into sync. Your heart rhythms come into sync. Your biochemistries come into sync. Even your neural firings come into sync. It's as if in that micro moment, a single positive emotion is rolling across two brains and bodies at once, creating a momentary resonance of good feeling and goodwill between you. Now what's more is that as you have more of these micro moments of connection in your daily life, it changes you, it, it changes you for the better, not just socially and psychologically, but also physically.

[00:02:41] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna be right back with more from Barbara Fredrickson after a micro-moment of podcast ads. Don't go anywhere.

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[00:02:54] Chris Duffy:
Today we're talking about positivity, love, friendship, and the science of human connection with Dr. Barbara Fredrickson.

[00:03:00] Barbara Fredrickson:
Hi, my name is Barbara Fredrickson. I'm a professor of psychology and neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

[00:03:08] Chris Duffy:
So I would love to start at the, the beginning, which is how did you first get interested in psychology and then more specifically in positive psychology?

[00:03:16] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, I have kind of superficial reasons for being interested in psychology. My big sister was a psychology major, and there was a time, because she was six years older than me, that I just wanted to do everything she did. Um, she didn't continue on in psychology, but I can credit her for that. And then I had a amazing mentor as an undergraduate who helped me see that my path in psychology would be best fit by being a researcher.

[00:03:45] Chris Duffy:
I’m curious because you do get interviewed a fair amount and people cite your work a lot. What do you think people get wrong the most?

[00:03:52] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. I think what people get wrong is they think that if positive emotions are valuable, they either think you should be feeling good all the time, or that you should never feel bad, that negative emotions are somehow not valuable.

All emotions are valuable when they fit the current circumstances that we're in, and no emotion should be worn like a uniform, like a permanent veneer. I mean, emotions are about moments, and so having more moments that include positive emotions is great and healthy, but we shouldn't expect to be happy all the time.

[00:04:30] Chris Duffy:
I’ve heard you talk a lot about, um, both moments and micro-moments. When we're thinking about these moments of, of emotions of all kinds, positive, negative, how do you think about them in your own life when, when a strong emotion rises?

[00:04:42] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. Well, I think probably the most, more useful term, I think, would be pleasant and unpleasant because you could say all emotions are positive in terms of the outcomes that they could produce if they're in the right circumstance, and, uh, expressed, in a healthy way.

But, uh, I think one big difference is that there's such foundational asymmetries between feeling good and feeling bad. Negative things, we tend to get riveted by unpleasant things. And you know, for our ancestors, those could have been threats to life and limb and it, the cost of ignoring them was very high.

So negative experiences and negative emotions are absolutely riveting and attention grabbing. Positive things sometimes go under the radar because, you know, for our ancestors, it wasn't about, you know, life or limb, but rather opportunity and the cost of missing an opportunity is not as big as missing a, a danger. And so, they don't captivate our attention in the same way.

The environment, modern day environment is kind of set up to capitalize on our, you know, can't take our eyes off of negativity. So we, it's easy to potentially consume way too much of it, and we need to, I think it's useful to kind of cultivate your eye for the positive things so you don't miss the subtle positive emotions that potentially we could experience them regularly all day long.

[00:06:13] Chris Duffy:
So if, if negative emotions are inevitable and we're kind of hardwired in some ways to, to pay attention to them, at what point do negative emotions become really detrimental to a person?

[00:06:26] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. This is why I mentioned, you know, fit the circumstances because you know, right at the moment where we're discovering, we lost someone or something we really care about, sadness is absolutely the right, a fitting emotion. Sometimes it'll take people a while to get to the point where they feel like they can express their sadness, but it's a, it's fully appropriate for that situation.

Now, if immobilizing sadness were to last for weeks and months, that's a little more concerning. Same would be true for anxiety and anger. You know, there are situations that are really completely appropriate for us to share our anger. But if we're angry all the time in every circumstance… So there's a emotional wisdom that comes from fitting the emotion to the right circumstance. And, um, people who are most resilient have the emotions that match the circumstances the best and they don't linger on negative emotions too long.

[00:07:24] Chris Duffy:
Say someone's listening to this and they're feeling like, “Oh, I'm maybe not in the, I'm not in the camp where it's fitting the way, or it's helpful anymore.” What are some things that people can do?

[00:07:34] Barbara Fredrickson:
I mean, a very first step is realizing, you know, this isn't serving me anymore. And I think looking sometimes at what are the ways of patterns of thinking or assumptions that you've made that are fueling the continued sadness, continued anger. You know, am I seeing the world in black and white terms? Am I truly understanding the nuance here? How am I not letting “this too shall pass” unfold in my life?

You know, that, that things change and, um, most often things can change for the better. In terms of really significant pain, really significant losses, it might be a wave we need to ride, but it won't last forever. It's sort of recognizing that emotion is present, accepting that it's just, it's an important part of human experience and then riding it out.

I, that's one of the reasons why older people are happier than younger people is older people tend to accept their emotions to a greater degree than younger people. So it's uh, sort of one of the pieces of lessons of life from experience.

[00:08:46] Chris Duffy:
You wrote a book called Positivity, and you are the director of the Positive Emotion and Psychophysiology Laboratory, which also, first of all, you had to have done some work to make sure that it was “pep.” Right? That wasn't just coincidental because that's perfect.

[00:09:00] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. Actually my graduate students are, um, responsible for that. They really wanted to have the psychophysiology in there and they're like, “And it's pep!” Hahaha.

[00:09:10] Chris Duffy:
It was excellent that was the acronym. I think that there's sometimes positivity especially is something that culturally we kind of think of as like, oh, well, are you an optimist or a pessimist? Are you a positive person or a negative person? That that's sort of like a fixed state, and it seems as though your work and your research are dedicated to the idea that it, that's not true. That we don't, we don't just have some sort of like innate sense of positivity and it can't really be changed.

[00:09:39] Barbara Fredrickson:
Right. I mean, there are individual differences. Some people are lit, a little more happy go lucky than others, but I think that it's important to recognize that, um, again, emotions are, are states, they're moments, they're things we can cultivate more frequently in our lives. And no matter where people are on that trait level of happy go lucky, you can always kind of increase the frequency of mild positive emotions.

That's, you know, we don't have to be like the most intense high, or we don't have to have really prolonged positive states, but just frequent. Frequent and mild is what keeps us on the healthy side of emotional wellbeing and mental health. And you know, the fact that emotions and positive emotions in particular are fleeting. They can last seconds or minutes.

[00:10:32] Chris Duffy:
It seems like from some of the things that I've read about emotions and neuroscience and, and psychology these days, that there's an increasing sense that the relationship between our brains and our bodies is a two-way street. So it's not like, like you think about it as like you get excited and then your heart starts beating faster.

My understanding is that there's also some research that shows that, like, your heart starts beating faster, your brain then says like, “Does that mean that I'm excited?” And that it's kind of, it goes both ways. Not, not just one way.

[00:11:04] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. Mm-hm. Definitely goes both ways. Things like inflammation in the body, which is a early response to illness, kind of comes with its own emotional psychology that kind of gets you to pull away from, you know, being in community and kind of, you know, lay low or stay closer to, connected to your inner circle only. You don't want to like, you don't feel like going out and meeting new people when you're sick.

There's research to show that if you experimentally create inflammation without illness, just the inflammation, that that makes people feel a little more depressed, a little more like they don't wanna be with people they don't know, and it colors our emotional psychology. What's the body feeling like right now? What kind of situation am I in? And have I been in a situation like this before where this feeling goes with this circumstance and we kind of knit those together? And so yeah, there's definitely a two-way connection between body and brain.

[00:12:03] Chris Duffy:
There are ways in which we can bring these lessons into our body, right? So we can do the work of like, okay, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna walk outside and I'm gonna reach out to a friend, but also I can focus on some physical things I can do to actually change my emotional state.

[00:12:21] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, get enough sleep. Eat food that's gonna keep you kind of steadily energized across the day as opposed to big spikes in energies and drops, regular physical activity, or just going for a brisk walk. Those are all things that are really quite known to affect our mood and our outlook and our propensity to experience.

[00:12:46] Chris Duffy:
Those mild positive emotions. We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back after these messages.

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[00:13:00] Chris Duffy:
Today on the show, we're talking with Dr. Barbara Fredrickson about her research on human connection and the science of what makes us feel loved and feel deep emotional ties to other people, whether they're friends or romantic partners. Here's another clip from Barbara's TED Talk.

[00:13:16] Barbara Fredrickson:
Love isn't just that lightning bolt experience that connects you to your soulmate. No less life changing, it’s also that simple, genuine smile that you can share with anybody, all day long. Now, this isn't just some ivory tower exercise of remapping definitions. This has been a huge wake up call for me personally. I, I've come to see that every interaction that I have all day long is an opportunity, but if I'm gonna step into that opportunity, I need to step outta my head and away from my keyboard and take some risks. Be open, be vulnerable. And what I found is that the payoff for doing that is huge.

[00:14:03] Chris Duffy:
Your, your TED Talk is about love and about broadening the definition of love. So we've been talking about these like small, mild, positive emotions. Why is it important to you to label the small moments of connection as love as well, rather than just the big romantic, you know, proposals and marriages and stuff like that?

[00:14:20] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, I think it's useful because culturally we all agree that love belongs on a pedestal. That we think of it as important, and I think that by drawing people's eye to the most elemental unit of love, the smallest unit of love, sort of positive connection between people is, um, helpful in terms of helping you see where do those important relationships start? Or, how does a feeling of feeling safe and at home in your community, where does that come from? How do we learn to trust people?

The theorizing and research that my team and I have been doing points out that those moments of positive connection with others are where that feeling of feeling safe in your town, feeling trusting of, uh, of another person. And so we don't have to exclusively take love as, like, this mysterious force that is a lightning bolt and brings people together. I think of it a little bit like comparing, uh, the sun to stars. And we know they're the same thing, but during the daytime, we just don't see stars because the sun is so bright.

And so I think that's what's happening with romantic love. We, it's just so big and important in people's lives that we are not seeing these other small sources of love and warmth and connection, um, that are, that are much more available.

[00:15:54] Chris Duffy:
Who you think of as a person who you love who falls in that circle? 'Cause it sounds like it's quite a broad circle.

[00:16:00] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, well, certainly, you know, my family and close friends. I mean, I have an inner circle of loved ones like anybody else strives to have, and they're, you know, especially important to me. But, um, I really do feel like having done research in this area makes me much more likely to smile at somebody I, I pass by on the street or have a conversation with somebody in line next to me at the grocery store.

I mean, I am a really extreme introvert, but I have learned to value these moments and I feel like my day is better because I've connected.

[00:16:40] Chris Duffy:
Those are two really easy, practical ways to put this into practice. What are some other ways that people can practically expand their circle of love?

[00:16:48] Barbara Fredrickson:
You know, we all spend a long, uh, part of our day at work. Enriching the quality, the emotional quality of our connections with, um, people on our team at work is really important because, um, you know, sometimes we spend more time with our work, uh, colleagues than with our family.

And I think one way to increase that is, is, you know, be helpful, help people do their job, but also just connect with people on a human level. Like, what did you do this weekend? Or what's the most important thing that you're looking forward to? Or, you know, just don't be all business, and realize that the work is gonna be better. It's gonna be a, a contributor to people's wellbeing. Um, if we take time to connect human to human while we do work together.

[00:17:37] Chris Duffy:
It's, uh, it's interesting because just thinking about in my own experiences in offices or in work settings, there was an office where people would often, when they got in, they would make their own breakfast in the little kitchen, and there was this like egg cooker thing that could cook six eggs at once.

And that just became like the thing where when the egg cooker alarm went off, people would be in there and they'd be like, “Oh, are you gonna take the last egg? Are we gonna take the eggs?” And just, it's just a silly, small thing. But I'd be, I was like, oh, the people who eat eggs in the morning, they are all friends with each other because there's like this little ritual around the, the, the weird little dome that hard boils eggs, that, that became a thing where all of a sudden there's a connection. And it's not because it was some sort of big meaningful moment where they said, like, “We're gonna form a cult around hard-boiled eggs.” It was just, they had this shared moment that they had almost every day.

[00:18:22] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. It was, uh, a ritual. I mean, I think rituals are really important for giving us opportunities to connect. You don't wanna force the connection, but one thing you can do is, uh, create a, a common kind of home base. It's creating those places where our paths cross frequently so there's familiarity and you kind of, you know, show recognition of, of others. You know, decade by decade we're losing this because we tend to use our little screens to connect with our inner circle of loved ones no matter where they are. And we don't look up from there to connect with people who happen to be where we are physically, where our feet are. I mean, we are mammals, we are creatures. We are, um, evolved to take in and benefit from being in each other's presence. Virtual connection is a thin proxy.

[00:19:21] Chris Duffy:
You said it's a thin proxy. Tell me more about that.

[00:19:23] Barbara Fredrickson:
We don't get all the same sorts of connections, emotional connections going between people, and a big part of that is that we cannot get the eye contact. Right? You know, right, you know, if we're on Zoom, we are kind of get the feeling of being looked at rather than making eye contact. And I think that our creature brain takes that as like being monitored as opposed to being connected to and seen.

And another thing eye contact is really important for is emotion contagion, that we're much more likely to understand at a deeper level, more able to track the sincerity of people's emotional expressions when we're face to face and can make the eye contact. Right?

Um, there's some research by, uh, social psychologist Paula Niedenthal on this, how when we make eye contact, we're much more likely to mimic the smile. When we mimic the smile, where there's sort of a neural mimicry that kind of informs our gut about what another person is feeling so that… We get kind of cut off from that, you know, visceral feedback when we're not in person.

And people are much worse at picking up deception, uh, in when we're not in person, and they're better at it when they're in person. And I would argue too that people are much better at collaborating to create these shared positive emotional states in person. You know that when you're, you know, sending texts to your loved one with a little LOL or a laughing, uh, happy face, how often are you really laughing? And will they really laugh? You don't, you don't, your laugh and their laugh don't have a chance to really build on one another and resonate. That's what's missing when we're connecting virtually.

[00:21:18] Chris Duffy:
I mean, people who are listening may not be aware of this, but you and I are not in the same place right now. Right? We are in different states, thousands of miles apart, and we are talking through our computers. And so on the one hand, I absolutely understand and agree, and I mean, just to give a specific example, I have learned from doing a bunch of these interviews that if I look at your actual picture, if I look at what the image of your face that is shown to me, it actually looks like I'm looking down at my notes. So instead, I am forcing myself to look right at the camera, which is kind of a surreal-like performance where I’m, like, I'm trying to make eye contact, but I'm actually looking into one dead mechanical eye.

But, the flip side of that is I wouldn't be able to have this conversation with you if it weren't for the remote technology. It would be a very different conversation, or it wouldn't have happened at all.

[00:22:09] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. I mean, some people would argue that it might be better if it's only audio because there isn't a misfire with the eye contact. So I totally appreciate that you look at the camera eye and I'll try to do the same thing too. But, um…

[00:22:25] Chris Duffy:
No, you don't have to. I'm telling you that you have to make eye contact with your computer. That's not what I'm saying.

[00:22:29] Barbara Fredrickson:
But even if you do that, it's not eye contact. It stimulates eye contact a little bit.

[00:22:37] Chris Duffy:
Yep. What happens when we are physically face-to-face? What happens to our bodies when we are connecting with someone else?

[00:22:43] Barbara Fredrickson:
You know, it's interesting how much our physiology, um, comes into synchrony. Um, there's research to show that our, you know, having a conversation where you're closely following what the other person is saying and jumping in that, it's not, it, that, that two individuals’ brain activity is, um, kind of moving along in the same way.

We find that with physiology in terms of heart rate and sweat gland activity, that there's much more likely to be a synchrony in reactivity, especially when people are connecting over positive things. Um, sharing a positive emotion at the same time. So it's really like the same emotion is rolling through two brains and bodies at once.

Or, you know, maybe in a small group with, uh, with others. Similarly, we locate emotions within the boundaries of an individual, more so than we should. Emotions, I think transcend people and connect people as well.

[00:23:46] Chris Duffy:
You know, in, in my professional life as a comedian, when you see people in a crowd laugh, it is not one person laughing. That's so rare. It is this communal laugh. And that really does resonate, right? It's not like the idea that this is a communal experience. I think often I think of that as like a performance. You're having this communal experience even when it's not a performance, when everyone's not directed towards a stage, right?

[00:24:13] Barbara Fredrickson:
Uh-huh.

[00:24:13] Chris Duffy:
I, driving along on a road trip with some friends and all of a sudden you all have the same, like, giddy out of control laughter over something that is not funny at all. And that's just this shared experience that you can't even explain afterwards. Like that's a shared experience where it's not just one person's emotion, it's, it's extremely contagious, but maybe that, even the idea of contagion is wrong because it's actually—

[00:24:36] Barbara Fredrickson:
Collaborative.

[00:24:36] Chris Duffy:
—contagion makes it sound like it's spreading. Yeah. It’s collaborative.

[00:24:37] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. I think of it as collaborative or coexperienced because contagion does still fit that model of it jumped from one person to the next. Um, yeah, our, our physiology is, is really wired to connect in this way, to really pick up emotional nuances and, and see what they mean for us, and also to build closeness.

When positivity, any positive emotion is resonating between people in this warm, caring way. That's what I call this, uh, moment of love that, the most elemental unit of love, that it's not a different positive emotion, but it's any positive emotion when it's shared or collaborative or experienced.

[00:25:26] Chris Duffy:
It, it makes me immediately think that it must be extremely important, then, who we allow into our circle of collaboration.

[00:25:37] Barbara Fredrickson:
Definitely there's a classic sociological study of, of networks that shows that your friend's friend’s happiness contributes to yours, you know, and that being in a network of, uh, friends or coworkers that have a lot of, uh, depression and negativity makes it more likely that you will also be ex, experiencing something similar.

And the reverse is true for happiness. That, um, happiness, uh, is not just spreads, but it's a collective, uh, phenomenon. It's not like we don't feel positive and negative emotions on our, on our own, but they're, they hit us in a deeper way and they benefit us in a more, uh, significant way when they're collaborative and shared.

[00:26:28] Chris Duffy:
I'm sorry if this is a, a very basic question, but you study this. How do you study this? What does your research actually look like?

[00:26:36] Barbara Fredrickson:
There's a bunch of different ways that we look at the concept that I call positivity resonance, which, you know, in my book, Love 2.0, is what I call love, these moments or micro-moments of positive connection.

One is by asking people to recall, um, a recent in-person interaction with somebody and to reflect on what happened between you and another. And so instead of having a questionnaire that says, “Oh, did you like this person? Were you happy?” You, you reflect on, um, was there a sense of mutual warmth between you? Um, did you feel in sync with the other person? Did you feel energized and uplifted in each other's company? Another way we look at it is we try to get more objective by looking at, um, shared physiology. Is there a synchrony in biological responses? Is there a synchrony in nonverbal, uh, responses, like people are nodding at the same time, smiling at the same time, leaning forward at the same time?

And then, uh, when we get people into the laboratory and videotape an interaction, we can show them the videotape of that interaction later and ask them to rate moment by moment: how positive or negative were you feeling during that interaction?

[00:27:59] Chris Duffy:
Can you define positivity resonance? What is positivity resonance?

[00:28:02] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, I do limit it to face-to-face from the data that we've gathered over the years. But, um, a moment of in-person connection that is characterized by a trio of three features: shared or coexperienced positive affect, positive emotion. There's a pleasant sense in both people at the same time. That there is a synchrony in caring nonverbal expression, so smiling, nodding, leaning in. That's that both people are sort of engaged in the same tempo of warm, uh, gestures.

[00:28:41] Chris Duffy:
And we've talked about a couple different ways of things that people should do to make sure that they have more connection and more of these moments of, of love and, and social positive emotions. What are some things that people should not do? What are the mistakes that people make?

[00:28:55] Barbara Fredrickson:
One mistake would be to, um, oh, “Synchrony is important. Maybe I should like, model other people's gestures.”

[00:29:04] Chris Duffy:
Oh, I was absolutely thinking that I should do that. When you said it, I was like, “Okay, I can just, like, do a little mirroring exercise when I'm talking to someone.”

[00:29:08] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah. No, I think that takes you out of the moment too much. It puts your attention in the wrong place. I think, um, being curious about other people, um, uh, trying to figure out what, oh, this is a kind person. I always wanna connect with them and then realize, oh, I could be that kind person that other people wanna connect to.

Looking up from your phone screen, something we don't do enough. We kind of get really pulled into, uh, our tiny screens. Even in very public, uh, venues. There's an opportunity cost. You're missing connection with, um, people around you. And the hard thing is, is that, you know, people misestimate how much, um, they think other people don't wanna talk to them.

There have been studies on talking to strangers that suggest that people anticipate that it's gonna go badly. I'm gonna be awkward. They're not gonna wanna talk to me. And then when they actually do have that conversation, they're like, “Oh, that went really well. They really liked me. And I don't, I don't think it was so awkward at all.”

[00:30:15] Chris Duffy:
What’s the um, last moment of connection like that, that you've had, like today or this week? What's the last one that you can remember most recently?

[00:30:23] Barbara Fredrickson:
Oh, I mean, I was, um, teaching my big class this morning. I have more than 300 students, but I, I team teach it with a couple of, uh, colleagues and a number of, you know, teaching assistants and grad students and, you know, we’re high fiving and giving each other like, “Good to see you.” You know? And even though we just saw each other a couple days ago. You know, our course is called Health and Happiness. So, you know, it's kind of fun that I'm teaching it with people who really live it.

[00:30:52] Chris Duffy:
Well, Dr. Barbara Fredrickson has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show.

[00:30:57] Barbara Fredrickson:
Yeah, this has been fun. Thanks.

[00:31:02] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Dr. Barbara Fredrickson. I am your host Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by four strangers on a bus: Banban Cheng, Daniella Balarezo, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact checked by the eternally positive Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles. 


On the PRX side, our show is put together by a team that high fives even more than Dr. Fredrickson's graduate students do. I'm talking Morgan Flannery, Noor Gill, Patrick Grant, and Jocelyn Gonzales.

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