How to be okay when things are not okay (with Mollie West Duffy and Liz Fosslien) (Transcript)

Chris Duffy:
I’m your host Chris Duffy and you’re listening to How to Be a Better Human.

Okay so before we get into this episode, I have to give you a disclaimer: of all the guests we’ve ever had on the show, of all the episodes we’ve taped, today’s interview was the one I was the most nervous to do. That’s because with every other conversation that we’ve had, if I messed up the interview, well that’s a bummer, but it’s also just a one-time thing. It’s just one bad episode. Whereas today’s guests are the authors Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy. And I am Mollie’s husband. So if I mess this episode up, well… I have to live with the interview subject. So the pressure is on. I better get this one right.

And actually, feeling anxious at work is a topic that Liz and Mollie are experts in. They’re the bestselling authors of No Hard Feelings and their new book Big Feelings, which tackle questions of how to handle tough emotions at work and in life. So we’re already right in their wheelhouse!

And I know that I am biased. Obviously, I am incredibly biased here. But one I really dove about Liz and Mollie’s collaboration is that they always bring so much of themselves to the work. They’re writing about often very serious issues, but they bring a great sense of humor, and they share the ways they experience these big feelings themselves. And I am going to start this off very professionally, so let me have both of you introduce yourselves.

Mollie West Duffy:
Hi, I'm Molly West Duffy I'm an author and an expert in organizational development and learning and development. And I am married to Chris Duffy.

Liz Fosslien:
Hi, I'm Liz Fosslien. I'm an author, illustrator, expert on how to make work better. And the head of communications and content at Humu. I'm not married to Chris Duffy.

Chris Duffy:
So, Liz and Molly, how did you two start working together?

Liz Fosslien:
This is Liz and I got a job in New York city. I was living in San Francisco and I admitted, I totally had a lot of stereotypes about New Yorkers that they would be abrasive. It would be hard to make friends. Everyone would be walking faster than me on the sidewalk. So I reached out to a couple of my friends and asked to be set on platonic friend dates in New York, so that I would have at least a few friendly faces and one of those people was Molly.

So shout out to Gabe for introducing us. And we, I think, met for coffee and really quickly bonded over our extreme sleep routines. So, we both love white noise machines, eye masks, our sleep masks, earplugs. we have strong opinions on all of these things. But then as we became friends, we had both had similar experiences early in our career where we got jobs we thought were going to be amazing, basically burned out of those, and just became really interested in the intersection of emotions at work.

It started for us, with we're both proud introverts. And so trying to navigate more extroverted environments. At the time I was mostly illustrating and Molly was writing articles. So we decided to just try to do an illustrated article together on, I think it was like the six things you don't know about introverts, something like that. I think I butchered the title, and essentially that led to this really amazing now almost seven-year partnership.

Chris Duffy:
What led you two to think that like emotions at work is, is the topic that you should write about?

Mollie West Duffy:
Like Liz said, we both felt like we were in our twenties and there was no room for emotions at work. So we felt like we needed to be professional and that meant never displaying emotion. And then over the course of the decade of our twenties, we realized, “Oh, actually we're still human. We still have emotions at work, but what do we do with them?”

And no one had ever given us training on what to do with emotions. When do we express them? When do we not express them? When we listen to them, when we not listen to them at work? And we had to figure it out the hard way. So we, we wanted to write the first book, No Hard Feelings, to really understand what is the purpose of our emotions at work, and each chapter was really diving into one area of work. So how do emotions affect communication, decision-making, leadership and all of that? And I think both of us learned a lot along the way that we were then able to apply in our own work lives.

Chris Duffy:
Okay, we’re gonna talk more about what Liz and Mollie learned and how they applied that in their own lives. We’re gonna get practical tips for dealing with emotions in the office and at home, and we’re gonna cover a whole lot more. But first, we’re gonna take a quick break.

[BREAK]

Chris Duffy:
And we are back! We’re talking with the authors Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy about dealing with big, sometimes uncomfortable emotions.
Something that's been interesting to watch the two of you work together is there's this meta-level where you write about dealing with emotions and you write about how do you deal with emotions in the workplace, but then you two also work together, and I think a close, creative and professional partnership is, is often very fraught with emotion. So how do you two deal with those together?

Liz Fosslien:
Yeah, I think we've gotten significantly better at it over the years. and as Mollie said, a lot of it is just taking what we were learning and applying that. We just slowly learned over time, the importance of communicating upfront and right away and not letting feelings faster.

So, one example, I remember earlier when we were writing No Hard Feelings, Chris and Molly were living in New York. Uh, and I was in San Francisco. I had moved back, and all of our publishing team, our editor was in New York. And so Molly would wake up and get this flurry of emails on east coast time.

Liz Fosslien:
And Molly is also a morning person. It was like, Molly was answering all these emails in the morning and feeling rightfully so, like she was carrying all the communication with our publisher and she flagged that to me, which was, again fair, but from my perspective, I was just like, I'm not awake. Like it's not that I'm, I'm trying to, that I'm like slacking or being lazy.

Although I guess you could say maybe 9, 9:30 wake up, that's a little lazy, but I was just like, if you just don't answer the emails, I'm more than happy to get to them. I just need that like, grace period, because we're on different time zones. And then that was wonderful and Molly would leave half the emails for me to answer and that smoothed out the whole thing. By now we've kind of figured that out. And so it can really easily identify things that might irritate the other person early on.

Chris Duffy:
Mollie, that makes me think of something that I've heard you talk about a lot. which is the idea of having like a user manual for how people can work with you and what works best in your own life. Can, can you explain what that is?

Mollie West Duffy:
We didn't come up with this, but we created our own, our own version of it. And it's basically a guide to working with me. And so as a team, you would each fill it out individually and you would say, “Here's how I like to give and receive feedback. I'm more of an introvert, or I'm more of an extrovert. Some things that you might not know about me are this. Here's some tips for working with me.”

And then you get together, and you share all of those items. And so we recommend this in our workshops for teams to do, and we have a version on our website, but Liz and I also had to figure this out. So we're both introverts so that does make it easier.

But, you know, as Liz mentioned, there's other differences. so I really don't like to receive even positive feedback publicly, whereas Liz does. So that's a difference between us.

Liz Fosslien:
In a public forum.

Chris Duffy:
Liz, you're doing great by the way, this interview is you're, you're carrying the interview. It's fantastic.

Liz Fosslien:
Oh my gosh. Molly, we'll email you later.

Chris Duffy:
Molly, I know that you were with that user manual thing, you realized that people were perceiving you at work kind of differently than you.

Mollie West Duffy:
Yes. So when I worked at the global design firm, IDEO, I led consulting project teams, and a piece of feedback that I got consistently, especially from new team members who I was working with or new clients was that when they first met me, they felt that I was cold. And I think someone that is to do with the fact that I'm an introvert, that I might be a little shy.

But I don't think of myself as a cold person. Like when you get to know me, I'm really warm. So I had to work on that, and I shared it with the rest of my team. And I said, this is something that I'm working on. I've gotten feedback on. I would love your help working on this. And so then when we went to like a client meeting, a colleague of mine would remind me and be like, “Okay, so are you ready to like, get warm and smile and ask people about their families?” And, you know, I was like, “Oh yeah, okay. I got to amp myself up to do that.”

Chris Duffy:
That's a good example of something that people maybe don't always think about is like, you have to explain yourself to the people you're working with and clarify who you are. What are the other big misconceptions that people often have about emotions at work?

Liz Fosslien:
Yeah, I think another is that once you've decided that it's okay to have emotions at work, that these conversations will naturally occur. That suddenly it'll be easy, and the discussion will flow. And usually what happens is that when you're in back-to-back-to-back meetings or you have other priorities, if there's not an obvious time to talk about feelings, even if you're both comfortable with it.

And so what Molly and I always advise is explicitly setting time aside, whether it's in a one-on-one or in a team meeting to do some kind of emotional check-in. So in a one-on-one, instead of just quickly going to status updates saying, “Hey, like what was a personal win for you? What's been a challenge? How can I better support you this week?”
Liz Fosslien: Even something like, “How are you, really?” can go a long way and facilitating sharing and vulnerability, modeling the kind of behavior that you want to endorse. So, you know, if there is something hard going on saying, “I just want to flag that today's been a rough day. It has nothing to do with you. But you know, if I seem distracted, that's why.” You don't have to go into any detail, but again, it's starting to just create space for those conversations.

And one specific practice that seems to really resonate with teams is this idea of an “it's okay to” list. So there's also many, many unwritten norms and rules within organizations or even specific teams. And it's so helpful to put those on paper or in a Google doc, whatever that form might take. So things like it's okay to feel feelings, it's okay to have a bad day, to take a day off, to take a break, to not know something, to ask questions. So that's similar to the user manual, having this kind of document of norms that you all agree to uphold can be really powerful.

Mollie West Duffy:
One thing I would add to that is a misconception is that we think of emotions as good or bad, and this can be true in the workplace and it can be true at home.

So when you're making decisions at work, sometimes it's helpful to listen to your emotions. And sometimes it's not, because we all have biases, and we can get carried away by those biases. So that might be an example where an emotion is not helpful. Okay. It is sometimes helpful to listen to your emotions, even the emotions that we deem as bad.

So we've been raised to think about anger as a bad emotion to have, and certainly to express, but anger can be a sign that you really care about something and that something has been violated. And we can turn that into taking action. Regret can be a sign that we want to make different choices in our life moving forward. Envy can be A sign that we really want something. And so we should go out and get it.

Chris Duffy:
Well, along those lines, what are three things that listeners should be doing to be more in tune with their emotions or to use their emotions more productively?

Liz Fosslien:
Yeah, I think the first is just allow yourself to have emotions. So to Mollie’s point some emotions are so heavily stigmatized. Anger falls into this category, envy that we don't even acknowledge that we're feeling them. So actually when Molly and I were doing research for big feelings, our latest book, we knew we wanted to center one of the chapters around envy.

But when we asked people about envy or jealousy, We didn't really get that overwhelming of a response. But then when we mentioned comparison, we were flooded with like, “Oh yes, I really struggle with that.” So it's interesting to see that though, people recognize they were engaging in the behavior. They had not tied that to the emotion that the behavior tends to elicit.

Liz Fosslien:
So again, it's just not deeming something as good or bad, it just allowing yourself to feel whatever you're feeling. And that doesn't mean become a feelings firehose. It doesn't mean immediately act on it. It's just like, “Huh? I'm feeling overcome with jealousy.” That's fine. Just acknowledge it.

The second is then to understand what's driving that emotion. So let's say that you're feeling frustrated. Is it because you just don't understand where a project is supposed to go or is it because you didn't get enough sleep last night? Two very different drivers.

And then the third is given what's driving that emotion, what’s the next best step you should take. Sometimes it's have a conversation, ask your manager for clarity. And sometimes it's like, just take a break and go to bed because you're tired, you're hungry. And so I think it's, you know, getting specific about what you're feeling, why you're feeling it really helps you take the steps that make you ultimately feel better or put you in a better space.

Mollie West Duffy:
One thing I would add to that is setting time to discuss your emotions. So on a personal side, Chris, you and I, and this was your idea. I can't claim credit for it, but we have a time every week on Sunday, where we check in about our relationship and all of the emotions that go along being in a relationship.

And the reason that you suggested starting to do it was that it felt like when we had things come up throughout the course of the week, it was hard to find a time, you know, you're like, “Oh, well, I, I should bring this up with the other person, but I'm not sure that they're in a good mood right now. So I'm going to wait”, and then you keep waiting and then you never bring it up. And so it's really nice, you know, if I'm frustrated about something in the relationship I know we're going to have time to talk about it on Sunday.
Chris Duffy: This is a big difference between the two of us is that you're very good about, like, if there's an issue, you're going to bring it up. Even if we didn't have this like, designated time. Whereas I am so conflict-averse and what was happening and did happen for years in our relationship is there'll be something small and I would think about it and I'd be like, “How dare she not noticed this? I cannot believe that she's not changing this thing that she doesn't even know that I'm upset about.” And then it would just boil over two months after it had happened. And you'd be like, “Where is this coming from?”

Mollie West Duffy:
Yes. And I think for everyone, people who are conflict avoidant or not. It's it can be awkward. Like what phrasing do I use to bring it up? And so we have a structure and we say, okay, we're each of us share one thing that we think is going well in the relationship, one thing we think could be better. And then we share what's coming up for each of us in the next week.

So, you know, work-wise, life-wise. Um, so it's a little like weekly planning too. And then the work side, what I recommend is for teams to have moments where they check in as well. So if you're working on a project-based team, you should have a pre-project meeting, a couple of mid-project meetings, and an end-of-project meeting. And those should be facilitated conversations with the agenda items being: What are we doing well? What needs to change? Are there any elephants in the room in terms of, you know, things that we feel like we can't bring up? Giving each other feedback. And it's an hour of time. It’s not that much time, but it really can change the course of a project, because you just know you'll have dedicated time to bring things up and not let them fester.

Chris Duffy:
Maybe this is just my own bias, but so many of these feel, at least initially like kind of cringe-worthy like, “Oh God, I have to hand someone else a user manual that says how to talk to me at work”, or I have to set up a time with my romantic partner where we're like, “Here's one thing we're doing good. And here's one thing we're doing bad.” And like the, just the setting it all up. I'm like, how is it that this is how things have to work? Can't they just be seamless? But, sometimes this work is necessary. Why do you think that is.

Liz Fosslien:
I think we have this magical notion that like, if we're deeply in love, we'll just get each other, and we'll just connect and we'll be able to read each other's minds and these things won't even be issues.

And that's just not how it works. Right? Like we have different ways of approaching conflict. We have different comfort levels with uncertainty. We have different emotional expression levels. So Molly and I talk about some people are under-emoters, where they don't express that emotion, that much emotion.

Liz Fosslien:
And some people are over-emoters where they're like an open book. They have no poker face, introverts, extroverts, sort of similar. Some people recharge by being alone, some recharged by going out with others. And if you never create explicit space to talk about that, it's really easy to accidentally bulldoze over each other's feelings.

So. we would love for these emotional things just to be easy and natural. And that, that makes it feel like we're really connecting. We're like part of this team that gets along so well, but in fact, it's with these structured processes that you get to that more natural place.

Chris Duffy: Yeah, I really hear that. And actually, we have a structure and a process that we need to initiate right now, which is the podcast ad. That’s what makes this podcast, so we will be right back after these words.

[AD BREAK]

Chris Duffy:
And we are back. We’re talking with authors Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy about emotions in life and at work.

You know, I would say, and correct me if I'm wrong that maybe the thesis of the first book, No Hard Feelings, is that people think we shouldn't feel emotions at work, but in fact we do. And so we, if we talk about it, we'll do better.

And that the second book, Big Feelings, is that in the rest of our lives, there are these feelings that are viewed negatively or as too intense to talk about, but that in fact, by talking about them, we will acknowledge that everyone feels them and that we can do a lot better by actually talking about these things openly.

I think one of the concepts that bridges that, from your research is this idea of emotional contagion. So Mollie, can you explain what emotional contagion is?

Mollie West Duffy:
Emotional contagion is when I, let's say, well, let's start with you, Chris. So let's say that you are in a bad mood. That rarely happens but sometimes it does.

Chris Duffy:
Oh, it happens.

Mollie West Duffy:
And I am interacting with you in the morning and I catch that bad mood from you. And then I go and have a work session with Liz. I then transfer that bad mood to Liz.

And then she in the evening is in a bad mood and she transfers that bad mood to her partner. So two people who have not even interacted at all have now the shared, same negative emotion, and you can see how in a workplace, this really could spread quite quickly where, you know, you have these network effects where people spread emotions.

Chris Duffy:
It's also funny to me because we're in right now, we're recording this in a Zoom session, and on this Zoom call, right, Liz has never met Gretta or Jocelyn who are producing the show. And yet it's conceivable that one day, Liz, you woke up in a bad mood. Molly got that bad mood. Then I got that bad mood, and then Gretta and Jocelyn had a worse day because you were in a bad mood.

Liz Fosslien:
Is this everyone coming to demand apologies?

Chris Duffy: And so Elizabeth we want an apology right now from you.

Liz Fosslien:
I'm sorry to everyone on this Zoom call. It was probably me, that bad day you had was probably me.

Mollie West Duffy:
But I think one thing when we bring this up, especially in workshops, we say, “It's okay to have a bad day.” Like that's fundamental. We are human work then to have bad days, but just naming it can be really helpful, especially when you're in a leadership position, because everyone is looking to you more closely for what mood you are in. And so as a leader, you have to be mindful of that and flag it.

One, one thing that I would add is I think we are very afraid of talking about them because they are stigmatized in society, as we mentioned before. So there's seven: uncertainty, anger, regret, comparison (which Liz mentioned is, is envy), burnout, perfectionism. And what am I missing Liz?

Chris Duffy:
Despair.

Mollie West Duffy:
Despair.

Liz Fosslien:
Thank you.

Chris Duffy:
I know that when you first pitched the idea for a follow-up to No Hard Feelings that initially there wasn't the warmest response.

Mollie West Duffy:
Yeah, we pitched the idea in January 2020 before the pandemic. And we talked to our editor and our publisher who we really liked by the way. Sometimes when we tell this story, Like they're the enemy, they're not the enemy. And we said, we want to write a book about difficult emotions. And they said, “Well, we think that's a little bit too niche of an audience. Like, who's really gonna want to read about difficult emotions? Like what a bummer.”

So we said okay. And then we, for like, we went away for a little while and we were like, “Should we write a different idea?” And we were just sort of, you know, going around in circles. And then in June of 2020, after the pandemic started, our editor came back to us ,and she said, actually, we will buy that book because all that anyone is having right now is difficult emotions.

Chris Duffy:
You know, you've been interviewed a lot about this book and you've talked a lot about the hard feelings, and sometimes there's kind of a hilarious, like behind the scenes situation that people don't necessarily understand. So I wonder if you can tell the story about how you were interviewed about burnout on Good Morning American and what happened?

Liz Fosslien:
Yeah, so we, yeah, so we were really excited. We got a booking on Good Morning America to talk about the new book…

Chris Duffy:
Big national television program, if you're not in the U S and don't know. It’s a big deal television program.

Liz Fosslien:
Yes. And so initially we were going to fly to New York City, Molly and I are both in California. And then because of COVID, we were lucky enough to have them agree that like, if Molly came to San Francisco where I was, they would film in the studio there, but it also meant because good morning America goes live or the filming would happen at like 9:00 AM, 8:00 AM in New York, we had a 5:00 AM, wake up time in California and, you know, we had just been like working and working and working.

And I did not sleep at all that night. So I was like already up at four, we show up to the studio. We're both in like full makeup, full hair. We'd both spent like 45 minutes in the glam chair. We're sitting in the chairs. They’re about to go live with the interview. And I was just like, I'm going to pass out. Like, I'm just literally… I cannot stay conscious. And so I quickly ate like some kind of sugary bar and they were like, “All you need to do is sit in this chair and answer one question for 30 seconds”, and then you'll be on national TV. And I was like, “I can't, I literally cannot sit up straight.”

Liz Fosslien:
And so I sort of like slumped, I didn't pass out, but I like slumped to the floor, laid on the floor, put my feet up, was trying to just stay conscious. And then it was like, “Okay, Molly, like, we're going with you. Liz is not going to be on the interview.” And so I just remember lying there thinking like, you know, we are talking about burnout and uncertainty, like maybe you could just zoom the camera in, on me, on the floor and be like, this is an example of burnout. I just, you know, Hadn't taken the time that I needed to be well rested for this event.

It was probably just way too definitely way too much for me, but I still hadn't accepted that. and so then we ended up in this, like Molly handed it, handle it like a total champion. If you watch the interview, you, I think you cannot tell.

Chris Duffy:
You certainly can not tell that you are on the floor laying beneath her. It does not look like there's a second person who was practically unconscious.

Liz Fosslien:
I mean, I did, I did move but,yYeah, it was a, it was a wild, wild ride. Lots of feelings.

Chris Duffy:
I think you two have found a way of talking about these really challenging things and putting them really publicly without it feeling either self-indulgent or kind of, I think sometimes it can feel like it's like self-promotion. I think instead you two are very vulnerable about tough stuff that you've, you've gone through.

It sometimes it can feel, like, dangerous. Scary to put them out there, especially to put them out there publicly. And, you know, Molly, like in the book, you're talking about this period of time, which certainly was the worst period of my life. And I know it was even worse for you where you were dealing with suicidal feelings, you were dealing with chronic pain, you're dealing with some stuff that I think there's a real societal pressure to not talk about.

Mollie West Duffy:
It's still difficult to talk about, but I think when I was going through that period of time, the things that were most helpful to me, were hearing that other people had been through despair, had had suicidal thoughts and were okay. That they had made it through. There's a lot of stories about people who have suicidal thoughts and then take action on those, and those stories are really important too because we can learn from those.

But I think these thoughts are we're having these thoughts at some point in your life is very common, but we don't talk about it. And so I was under the impression that I had was never going to be able to recover. Like I had had these thoughts and how would they, like, they were very scary to me, and how would they ever go away?

Or like, how could I go back to being, you know, a normal person once I had had these thoughts? And, and so there were some books that I read. There were podcasts that I listened to. A few friends had, had been in a similar situation, but there wasn't a lot.

Mollie West Duffy:
And I think that the scariest thing was thinking about people who were like, you know, my cousins, like, you know, hearing about the experience. You know, that point, most of my close family members knew. But you know, somehow it's easier for me to think about a random reader who I've never met reading than to think about people who are like former colleagues or current colleagues reading about the book.

The first time that I knew that I was going to have to tell that story or talk about that chapter in the book, I was nervous before that event, and I still am nervous. And I, and I really want to make sure that I choose the right words because it's such… it is a life and death topic. And so when I talk about it, I want to make sure that I use the right words, knowing that other people who are listening may be in a similar position, and I take that really seriously.

But it has gotten easier because I think, people hear about it and they don’t think badly of me. They don't, you know, all of the reaction has been very positive, either people saying, “Thank you so much. I had no idea that you were going through that.” And that's really helpful for me to know or random people reaching out, like I just got a LinkedIn message from our former colleague that I worked with like 15 years ago, saying: “Thank you for sharing that. I also was going through some really difficult health conditions and I had those thoughts too. And, you know, I just really appreciate knowing that I wasn't so alone.” So it's hard, but it's worth it, I think.

Chris Duffy:
For me, one of the things that I learned the most through what you went through and what we went through is that, first of all, that it is too much for one person to handle and that it's totally okay, and in fact, it's strongly recommended to get professional help and to have people learn that there are all sorts of resources.

But the other was that I had this thought that like, if we talk openly about suicide or suicidal thoughts, that that will encourage you to do that to actually take action. And in fact, the research that I read and everything that I heard from therapists and from doctors was that, like, giving a space to talk about this stuff and for a person to be heard makes it significantly less likely that they'll actually do it.

And so what you want is for people to be talking and to feel safe and to feel like there's space for their emotions, because then you can start to process them and get to the root and actually solve some of these problems. And for me, that was my biggest fear is like, if I even say this word, if I say the word suicide, then like I've doomed it to happen. And I think it's just so important that people know that that is actually not the case.

Mollie West Duffy:
Because for the person, it’s like, in the worst of it, I mean, these thoughts were going through my mind, like multiple times a day. So it's not like, you know, you not saying it, or you saying it was going to remind me. Like I was already being reminded of it, you know, way too frequently. And it, it’s sort of a relief to be able to share that.

And I was worried, you know, about sharing it with you and I, I, a therapist and, you know, others. Because you don't know, well, what is the other person gonna do? Are they going to freak out? Are they gonna, you know, make you go to the emergency room and what? And so I think, you know, you being open to hearing that, I know it was very difficult for you to hear, but that I could say to you, like, “Hey, I'm having really dark thoughts right now.” And just like name that to you. And we could talk about it and just try to get through the day. But as you said, therapy's really helpful. You know, there was a period of time where I was seeing a therapist twice a week because I just needed that much help. And medication was really helpful to me, and just taking it day by day, and slowly, like, climbing out of that abyss.

Chris Duffy:
And Liz, you know, you talk in the book as well about, you talk about chronic health issues. So you talk about dealing with grief. I think these are also things that sometimes we have a stigma against in North American society about like talking about, or it, that it can come across as complaining if you don't get over them fast enough, whether it's a physical injury or emotional injury.

Liz Fosslien:
I think hearing from other people who have grieved losing a loved one. So for context, I, while we were writing Big Feelings, I was losing my father-in-law to his 10-year battle with cancer. And in the last days of his life, he had a stroke where he couldn't speak, couldn’t move, and was bedridden.

And he had always been like the life of the party. Like he would show up to birthdays. He showed up to hospital waiting rooms with an accordion would start singing. So it was just a massive shift to see this, like, over-the-top gregarious person suddenly be lying there and just being able to moan like that was the only form of communication.

Liz Fosslien:
My work was very supportive. I had two weeks of bereavement leave, but it was still. And I say to my, I mean, this is, you know, my husband's dad, I still see it in him. Like there are times when he'll just start crying in the middle of the day and it's been almost two years now.

And I think what I found, what many people that I've spoken with about this have also found is that people are really good right away. Right? Like if there's an immediate crisis, they're really good at supporting you and being there and bringing you food, all of those things. And then they kind of forget because you're still going through it, but it's not this, there's not like an event that's reminding them of what you're going through.There's not a funeral. There's not like a, you know,Molly just shared this really intense thing with me.

And so I think something just for all of us to keep in mind is just the periodic check-in. It's just so, so crucial to create space for those conversations and check in with other person and even Molly and I think sometimes slip into the like, “Okay, it’s our weekly phone call. What do we need to talk about?” We're not going to talk about work. Like, how are you, what's going on in your life? Let's put the friendship first.

Chris Duffy:
What is like one tool that you really hope that listeners take away or that you haven't shared, that you think is important for them to know about from each of you?

Mollie West Duffy:
One of the things that we write about is trying to be kinder to yourself. And this shows up in a couple of different ways. So we talk about burnout in the book and we say that as an adult, no one is going to draw your lines for you. We wish that we had a parent or a spouse or a boss who would say, “Hey, you're doing too much this week. You should really, you know, cut yourself some slack.”

But unfortunately, that doesn't happen. And so learning how to be kinder to yourself is something that's, that's really important. Same thing in the despair chapter, we talk about not beating yourself up for feeling badly. That's like in Buddhism, Buddhism, they talk about the second arrow.

So the first arrow is whatever you're going through. Chronic pain, depression, anxiety. The second arrow is your judgment. The fact that you are experiencing these emotions and trying to let that go, because it just makes the experience worse.

Liz Fosslien:
And then for me, it's this phrase, “I'm a person learning to”. So there's so many times in my life when I've put a lot of pressure on myself to have everything figured out right away. So becoming a manager who was managing remotely when COVID first hit, I was like, I need to know exactly what to do and what to say to everyone.
You know, when my father-in-law died, really feeling like I need to know exactly what to say to my husband and be here and support him in all the right ways. And instead flipping to: “I am a person learning to be a manager in a remote setting, which is new during a global pandemic.”

Liz Fosslien:
It's like, oh, okay. It’s… I can give myself some grace. I can ask others to help me. I can ask my team like, say, “We're all in this together. Can you just give me feedback? Help me figure out how to do this. I want to support you, but I'm also going to need to know what I'm doing wrong.” And then with my husband to just, we're both learning to be people dealing with this devastating loss.

That I've found again, just when I find myself in these like, putting so much pressure on myself, it gives me so much needed relief.

Chris Duffy: So the, the “I'm a person learning to” leads perfectly into. what is a way that you are currently trying to be a better human?

Liz Fosslien:
I think I'm trying to say no more often. So one thing I implemented semi-recently was one weekend day with no plans. I'm not going to see people. I'm not going to schedule a dinner. And I found that having this rule helps me say no, and it makes people not take it so personally.

So I'll be like, “You know, Saturday, I would love to see you, but it's my no plans day. Can we schedule something for next week?” And then people are generally like, either, “Okay. You're a weirdo, but I get it,” or I've actually had a really good response where people are like, “Oh, I really respect that.”

And I actually want to kind of take some time to myself. I think just, just acknowledging who I am, what I need to show up in the moments when I am with people is helping me be less frazzled and be more present.

Chris Duffy:
What's something, whether it's a book, a movie, a piece of music and idea that has made you a better human

Liz Fosslien: Can I say this podcast?

Chris Duffy:
Sure, but you'd be the first person in the history of our interviews to say it. You can certainly say it.

Liz Fosslien:
I would like to say Chris Duffy, all the wisdom that he shares, has made me a better human.

Chris Duffy:
Incredible. Okay. Now the pressure's on for you, Molly. How are you going to top that one? You have to also say me.

Mollie West Duffy:
I love the author Anne Lamott. And in, you know, in my moments of despair, I often reread her books. I find them very helpful in terms of thinking about how to work through difficult emotions and show up with kindness for other people.

Chris Duffy:
All right. Thank you so much, Liz. Thank you so much, Molly. I really appreciate you both doing this. it was great to talk to you

Mollie West Duffy:
Thank you.

Liz Fosslien:
Thanks for having us.

Chris Duffy:
That’s our show for today! Thanks so much for listening to How to Be a Better Human hosted by me, Chris Duffy.

A big thank you to today's guests Liz Fosslien and Mollie West Duffy. Their books are called No Hard Feelings and Big Feelings. And you know? I think despite how nervous I was to do this interview at the beginning, I think that we really did it. Wiping the sweat off my brow.

From TED, this podcast is brought to you by the emotionally mature Sammy Case, Anna Phelan, and Erica Yuen.

From Transmitter Media, the team includes Gretta Cohn and Farrah Desgranges who will report back on whether they are under-or over-emoters

And from PRX, it's Jocelyn Gonzales and Patrick Grant who both started working from home and therefore have combined their office and home lives into one big emotional melting pot.

Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. Thank you for listening, and we’ll be back next week with more How To Be a Better Human.