How to be good enough in America (w/ Wajahat Ali) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. If there's one thing that I really deeply believe and that I feel like has been confirmed over and over in conversations for this show, it's that almost nothing about ourselves is fixed. We can build new muscles, and we can grow and evolve and change in just about every way imaginable.

For me personally though, one of the hardest skills to build or to maintain is hope and optimism. I can often get crushed by the weight of the suffering in the world, and it's hard for me, when I'm looking at the news, to see hope or optimism as a skill that I can really work to build and to grow and to feel more of.

Which is why I am really excited to be talking to today's guest, Wajahat Ali, because first of all, he's hilarious, and that's always one of the fastest routes to my heart. So I'm very excited to talk to him for that reason, but also because he makes such a strong, clear-eyed argument for how we can cultivate and preserve hope even in the face of everything that is going on in the world. Here's a clip from his TED Talk.

[00:01:07] Wajahat Ali:
I’m not Pollyanna. I'm not a foolish, wide-eyed, naive optimist. I'm a pragmatist fully aware of the many challenges and horrors we are facing, but through my own personal experience, if it is all helpful, I can assure you that walking through this forest of horrors, going on this journey, wherever it may lead.

If you choose to invest in hope, it at least makes the ride a bit sweeter and easier, and as the wise Ram tells Po in Kung Fu Panda Two, “Your story may not have such a happy beginning, but that does not make you who you are. It is the rest of it: who you choose to be.”

[00:01:49] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna be right back with more from Wajahat in just a moment.

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[00:01:59] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. Today, we're talking about how to maintain hope and cultivate optimism with Wajahat Ali.

[00:02:05] Wajahat Ali:
Hi, I am Wajahat Ali. I'm the author of Go Back to Where You Came From: And Other Helpful Recommendations on How to Become American.

[00:02:12] Chris Duffy:
There’s a moment in your book where you talk about people being surprised that you are funny and that you have such a sense of humor, and your book is, while it deals with really serious topics, you kind of masterfully have the serious pathos, while also genuinely, there were times where I laughed out loud.

[00:02:35] Wajahat Ali:
You have excellent taste, Chris. If you are old like me, I'd say your check is in the mail, but I, you seem young, so you have no idea what a check is. So I'll Venmo and Zelle—

[00:02:41] Chris Duffy:
Perfect. Thank you.

[00:02:42] Wajahat Ali:
—for that compliment. But you know. It's true. It's because I'm of the Muslim-y and Pakistani persuasion, and the way stereotypes work is I've had, and I mentioned this in the book, I have had otherwise really well-intentioned, smart, intelligent, worldly, traveled people literally tell me “I'm shocked Muslims could be funny,” and then I don't say anything and they're like, “Wait. Why did I just say that?”

And it's because that the only narrative that they have is like, and then they make this face. I'm like, “I just thought Muslims were like, you know, mm.” I, I'm like, “Constipated?” Like, no, no, no, just, just like very serious. Just very serious. And so, they investigate why they had the assumption that a person like me could not be funny.

[00:03:25] Chris Duffy:
It is both a funny thing to title your book and it, there's some deep truth and pain behind the title like that.

[00:03:32] Wajahat Ali:
Yeah, it's gallows humor and I was talking to a, a friend of mine who's Jewish American in light of, uh, all that's happened this year and, and keeps happening, and we were just trying to find some dark humor and she is like, “Dark humor. Hello. Jews, we invented it.”

And I feel like it's one of those situations where, you know, being a person of color and being Muslim, especially in the post 9/11 climate in America, you need humor sometimes for catharsis, which is release or relief, right? It, it, it, it allows you to process, in a way, the pain and the absurdity of loving a country that doesn't always love you back.

And so the title of the book is both an invitation and a slap, which is kind of like how it feels like to be a person of color in America. You're both us and them. It's like, come to America, but hey, hey, hey. Get out, you invader. You're like, “Can you make up your mind? I just want to have an enchilada.”

[00:04:25] Chris Duffy:
It's something that we've talked about with other guests on the show and that I, I've had a lot of conversations with friends in my un-podcast life is how a lot of times the children of immigrants to this country, like the parents come here and they believe so strongly in this idea of an American dream. And then there's this second generation, or you know, at some point later on down the line, kids are struggling with this idea of like, you can never be, and I'm putting this in very big quotes, “American enough”, right, that like, whatever you accomplish, you'll never be American enough because inherently, some part of that American dream is really tied to whiteness and to this idea of like—

[00:05:04] Wajahat Ali:
Mm-hm. There you go.

[00:05:04] Chris Duffy:
Assimilating into the what it means to be a white American, even though that has never been what it means to be American in the actual factual sense.

[00:05:14] Wajahat Ali:
Yeah. You hit the nail on the head. I, I'll give you an example, right? Regardless of what you think of him, Donald Trump was president and so the president of the United States of America while he was president told four congresswomen of color, who are US congresswomen, US citizens, to go back to their country. Right? It’s implicit. It's, it's so deeply rooted that somehow if you are not white, quote-unquote “white”, you don't belong.

And if you do come here, your citizenship or your application can always be revoked. So you always better be on your best behavior. And if you don't like it, well you get out. And the funny thing is is, you know, everyone here is quote-unquote “ethnic”. Everyone here except those who are indigenous, are immigrants.

And people forget their own history, right? Like, uh, this is how you connect the dots for folks. I always remind people, if you're Irish and you're Italian, now you're seen as part of mainstream. Take the DeLorean of the 20th century, you weren't mainstream, you were the invader. The same way some folks talk about Mexicans and Muslims, that’s how they talked about your great granddaddy, and you are quote-unquote “white”. You had milky white skin, light skin tone, you're very porcelain. But it didn't matter. And so this whole concept of, of ethnicity and race sometimes in America is so ridiculous and tied to whiteness. But the sad part of it is, is that for the rest of us, Chris, who have, if you will, the darker melanin.

No matter how long we've been here, it doesn't matter. Asian Americans, Chinese Americans, Korean American, it doesn't matter. So Americanness or authentic American, rust belt, heartland, right? Who is electable? What's normal is tied to whiteness. And the interesting thing is, and this is the test for America, when people say, “Oh, eventually everyone will integrate.”

Will they? And the test of that is do you elect or choose to expand yourself to include a person who looks like me in the definition, or if you will, in the portrait of Americana? And as you know right now, the answer is sadly no. In some spaces.

[00:07:27] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. You, you have in, in one of the chapters of your book a section that's, that's very funny. And also, again, has a deep truth in it. That's about, like, what it looks like to be a model Muslim in America. And you go down the list and one of the people is, like, you could be the Ilhan Omar, but then at the end you end with, like, none of these are enough. No matter what you do, it won't be enough. And it's exhausting to even try and play this game. Like, I'm not gonna play this game anymore.

[00:07:55] Wajahat Ali:
Yeah. It's called the moderate Muslim checklist. And, and I give 30 examples and I, and I invite you to, to fill in to see if you're a moderate Muslim and based upon how many of the boxes that you check in the book, then I rank you and I, and I, and I give five rankings.

And I think if you, if you don't check that many, you're Dr. Oz, you're safe. Everyone loves you. Right? Even though he is Muslim and Turkish, but it's like, it's okay. You're Dr. Oz, you're one of the good ones. And then increasingly with more boxes that you check, you get scarier and scarier. So I think number two is Fareed Zakari. You have an accent, but you’re distinguished, we’ll take you and then later you get to like Ilhan Omar, and it's terrifying.

And then finally ends with like, you know, ISIS cheerleader, and it's this moderation checklist where the rest of us always have to prove our moderation, our loyalty, and patriotism to a nameless judge, jury, and executioner that always holds us as suspect.

And I could tell you as a 42-year-old man who came of age during 9/11, I was a college student that, uh, it’s never enough, Chris. No matter how much you condemn violent acts done by violent people you've never met, no matter how many American flags you're waving, no matter how many Taylor Swift songs you know, um, no matter how many era concerts you've gone to, it's never enough.

All it takes is one moment, one attack, one extremist, and then boom, you're right back in it. You're right back in it. You're the other.

[00:09:20] Chris Duffy:
Something that I'm really struck by in your book and in your talks and in the writing that you do, is you are really a hopeful person. You're really full of hope, and I think it's really easy to imagine how when you get to this realization that nothing will ever be enough to kind of become cynical and to think like, okay, well then what's the point of doing anything? And yet it seems like you've come to the opposite.

[00:09:42] Wajahat Ali:
For those who are listening all around the world, uh, we're going through a lot. We're going through climate change, the devastating effects that we thought would come at 2050, 2060. Rising fascism, rising income inequality. We just survived a pandemic. It's a lot. To be hopeful, it’s to risk. It's to risk pain and disappointment and betrayal. Right? And so it's easier to be cynical, and it's easier to be apathetic, and it's easier to, to put a huge armor around yourself. Right? To be a pumpkin, to protect yourself. I get it. But what I say in the book, and I say in life is cynicism and apathy, although very comfortable and convenient, are also cheap and lazy, you have chosen to be a spectator in life. You're comfortable throwing out booze from the cheap seats and throwing out the popcorn, but you're not gonna get in the ring and push the ball forward.

And investing in hope at least gives you a perspective that maybe when the page turns, there comes a better story. And not only that, maybe I can be the author of that story. Because I feel like with hope, whatever time I have left in this thing called life, I at least can live it with more joy, with more purpose, with more autonomy. And at least Chris, I'm in the ring trying to push the ball forward. And, and, and this is where I think me being a dad, you know, I have no other choice but to be hopeful because my kids and my kids' generation deserve and demand better than that. “Hey, dad, how come you, how come you didn't try anything?” “Hey, you know, kids, uh, it was easier to be cynical and apathetic, and so I guess I could've made your life a bit better. But you know what? I decided to be in my Facebook algorithm cocoon, and I, I watched Netflix. Good luck. Uh, I'm about to die.”

And so this is why, even though it's more difficult, I feel that it has given me the mindset, the fuel, the means, the tools to survive situations and events and tragedies that I don't think I would've been able to survive or survive as well without hope.

[00:11:55] Chris Duffy:
We're gonna take a quick ad break right now, which I believe and hope we will all be able to survive. We'll be right back.

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[00:12:13] Chris Duffy:
And we are back. So, Wajahat, we're recording this conversation several months before the episode is actually gonna come out, and we're doing that because I will be on parental leave with my first kid, which I'm very excited.

[00:12:23] Wajahat Ali:
Oh, congrats. Congrats.

[00:12:24] Chris Duffy:
So, for everyone at home, if you're listening to this, I'm currently in the middle of New Parenthood, and I bring that up because I know that you have thought and written about how being a parent requires an inherent hopefulness that can sometimes be really challenging to maintain.

Right, like I have to believe that I'm bringing a kid into a world that can be made better, that can be healed and be hospitable. But I also know that the world is filled with heartbreak and pain and tragedy, and it's hard to hold all of those things simultaneously.

[00:12:52] Wajahat Ali:
It is one of the most audacious and insane Hail Mary passes of hope to bring in kids in this world. I mean, literally in this world, right?

[00:13:04] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:13:04] Wajahat Ali:
And, and look, it's a choice. Some people choose to have kids, some people don't. I totally respect that, but to, to choose to have kids, or if you get the phone call and you're like, “Oops, we're having a kid,” which also happens. There's no control. That's what's so terrifying about being a dad.

Like, there's only so much I can control in this. Earth. I can't protect my kid. I can only try my best. I don't know what'll happen during the pregnancy. I can only try my best. I'll do my best to raise my kid with a, with good ethics and a good heart. But then after that, kid leaves the nest, right? And so all of it, like literally the entire process of deciding to bring a kid to the world and raise a kid is exactly that.

Like, it's one of the most audacious Hail Mary, you know, passes of hope that hopefully inshallah, as we say, God willing, maybe this thing that I'm responsible for can do some good and bring some good.

I'm 42, and people say that I am in the sandwich years. And for those of you who don't know what that means, it's another way of saying the midlife crisis. I don't wanna call it a crisis, but the reason why they call it a sandwich, Chris, is because when you get to my age, birth and death come at you at waves at the same time, and you're in the middle.

So I'm literally bringing in life and holding a baby in a piece of cloth with nothing else, and I'm literally burying my elders in a piece of cloth, like that's where I'm at. But the story has to keep going. The pages have to turn. After I'm done, there has to be more protagonists and maybe just, maybe my kid can be the hero too.

[00:14:35] Chris Duffy:
I wanna say before we go further that I, I always feel whenever I am talking about pregnancy and childbirth and having kids, I, I always just wanna put the disclaimer on it that there was a period of time where I thought that that for sure would not happen. And I think it has become really clear to me that the idea that you only have like a full, complete life if you have kids is not true.

Having kids, not having kids, whether that's a choice or whether that's a choice that's made for you by biology or by circumstance or by whatever. Both are equal and different. They're not better or worse. I just always wanna put that disclaimer on it.

[00:15:19] Wajahat Ali:
No, I, you know, I completely agree. I was like you. I was like, “I'm never gonna have kids. I'm too poor. My health is like, you know, terrible. I'm probably not gonna make it to 35. Who's gonna marry me?” And then it happened. And I remember when I, it sounds so cliched, but I remember my, the, the, when Ibrahim, our first was coming out, he's nine years old. Everything was going well until the last second, and he just, he just wouldn't come out.

And so then they rushed my wife into another room. I'm like, wait, well, what's happening? And then for 15 seconds, there was just silence. And I'm just like, “Oh my God.” And I, I never felt more helpless in my life. Like, what could I do? You know? I was so useless. And then I heard a cry of a baby. And I was like, “Oh.” And then “I'm like, how about my wife?” And then I heard my wife. I'm like, “Oh.” So I rush in. My wife had to do a C-section, and I'm just sitting next to my wife and then over my shoulder, a nurse comes and just drops this little thing into my lap. And I remember I just stared. I just stared at him for like 30 minutes. I'm like, “Wow, look at that.” It's an amazing experience and I look forward to you experiencing that in a couple of months, and then we'll talk.

[00:16:26] Chris Duffy:
Yes, well, I’m certainly, I, it's, it's a good example of a thing where I'm like, I am fully aware that I know nothing and that I will—

[00:16:33] Wajahat Ali:
Yeah.

[00:16:34] Chris Duffy:
I will have nothing to say about what it's like until I've done it and, and then we'll continue to not know 'cause every second will be different than the second before.

[00:16:40] Wajahat Ali:
Just one quick thing. This is my unsolicited advice of a dad of three kids. One of 'em is nine, one of 'em is seven, one of 'em is three. They're all alive. So I've done something right. All I'll say is this. I still dunno what uh, I'm doing. All the manuals that they gave you was pointless. So it was like book for dads. I read it, like just all nonsense. You're like, “What the hell is happening?” I literally, the first week, I went into the room and my wife's like, “Are you poking our child to see if he's alive?” I'm like, “No, I'm not.” I was, I was just poking. I'm like, “Is he, is he still alive?” But all kids need, just like most people need, is love and attention. That's it. Give people love and attention. And really, like, that's, that's the secret sauce, if I may say so, Chris.

[00:17:22] Chris Duffy:
No, I really appreciate that. Obviously, we, this is our first time speaking in, in person, but as someone who has read your work and, and followed your, your journey from afar, it's really clear to me how much of that love you have for your own family, for your, for your parents, for your grandparents, for the broader community and family that has been around you, and yet your family has gone through some really big challenges.

I mean, you talk about how in the book there was a point where your parents are in prison and you are having to keep everything afloat, including your grandmother. You're having to keep your grandmother and, and her, her sister-in-law who's taking care of her. You're having to keep them in housed. Something that always bugs me is when, um, a bad thing happens. There's this tendency to say, like, “And that taught me something. And that was good because, like, I got stronger because of it.” And I think that something that I found really refreshing in your book is you talk about this moment where there's no money left and you're basically just a kid, right? You've just graduated and you're, all of this is on you all of a sudden, and in the moment when everything feels like, okay, well it's done. There's nothing else I can do. There's actually a huge relief in that. Not that because, like, I learned something, but just because like I, I did everything I could and it didn’t work.

[00:18:40] Wajahat Ali:
It's a very American story where it's Nietzsche, right? Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[00:18:47] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:18:47] Wajahat Ali:
You know, be a man, suck it up, and what people don't tell you, okay, whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, but it'll also leaves scars. And it leaves wounds, which if untended can bleed over time, and not just hurt you, but the loved ones around you. Right? So I'm not a fan of “Whatever doesn't kill you, make you stronger. I learned a lesson. Let me sell it on goop.” No offense, uh, Gwyneth Paltrow, right? It, it… You have to take the good with the bad. You have to talk about the pain also. Right?

And the, the, the event that you, uh, describe, uh, that you mentioned, in the book is I was 22. Both my parents were in jail. I had to leave college. I had two grandmothers I had to take care of. I had to take care of the family business. We had lost everything. My credit was shot to hell. The community, as you can imagine, kind of abandoned us 'cause it's post 9/11. And my parents' case was, was so notorious, um, we had to abandon the house. We're all stuffed in my aunt's house.

Um, and it was all, it was like waves. I was attacked by waves, um, and it just wouldn't stop, Chris, and I remember one day, 20 years ago, I'm at this Wells Fargo, which is still there. I'm taking out 20 bucks from the ATM, and I'm expecting about 70 bucks to be in the checking account. I get the receipt instead of 70 bucks, it says 00.03. I had 3 cents left.

And you can cry and you could be angry or you can rage, or there can be a moment of just release, and you smile. And that's kind of how I was. I was like, “I literally have done everything I could.” I cannot… I’m physically incapable of doing anything. This is hilarious. I have 3 cents. I have to take care of my family. I dunno what I'm gonna do. And I remember that night as I described in the book, I, I, I went home, I told my grandparents, I, I, “Grandmother, I did everything I could. I dunno what to do anymore. I have 3 cents left.”

My grandmother was a very… woman of immense faith. She goes, she, she heard me. She kept quiet, and she said, “Inshallah, Allah will figure out something. It'll be okay.” I sleep, and I'm telling you, as I say in the book, and I say this with utmost sincerity, that was the deepest, most beautiful sleep I've ever had in my adult life. To this day, I think about it, I just was like a baby in the womb. 'Cause I let it all go, Chris. I let it go. I'm like, what else can I do?

[00:21:07] Chris Duffy:
I bring it up partly because I think it's such a, it's a great example to me of, of, of an incredibly specific moment that is at the same time so relatable to anyone who has gone through something hard. I also bring it up because it ties, Wajahat, into something that I think you, you talk about with like the practical piece of maintaining hope, which is that sometimes we need to let go. Can you talk about the practical piece of that?

[00:21:31] Wajahat Ali:
If you really look at the people who articulating what is part and parcel now of the multi-billion dollar wellness industry, it comes from spiritual traditions that have existed for centuries. And a large part of that, that's those spiritual traditions, is letting go, is understanding that you are but one person.

Understanding your place in this mass infinite universe, understanding you're one out of 8 billion people, understanding that at the end of the day, Chris, if you really think about it, what do you control, Chris? The only thing that you can really control in life is your intentions and your actions. That's it.

And in a strange way, that becomes very liberating. You're like, I, I let go. I release it. To God, to the universe, to, to Kismet, to fate, to Tom Cruise, whatever you believe in, right? And in a strange way, you unburden yourself. It's not that you don't care, it's you unburden yourself of it. It's a choice and it's something that's very hard to do, especially as you know, a western American where you have to take stock and you have to do self-help, and you have to make a list. Every single hour has to be accounted for and yadada, and personal responsibility.

And there's a great saying in Islam: “tie your camel first, and then leave the rest to God.” Right? But the tie your camel part is very important. It means some people are just like, oh, “Inshallah, everything will happen. God willing.” Well, did you tie your camel first? Oh, no, I didn't. Hopefully God will take care of the camel. Maybe you should tie your camel first so it doesn’t, like, wander away. Oh yeah, you tied your your camel? You did everything you could? And then there was a hurricane and the camel went, what could you do? You tried your best. So that's the practical aspect. Tie your camel and then trust in God.

[00:23:11] Chris Duffy:
Well, if you're open to talking about it, I, I'd like to ask you how your daughter is doing. The week that you gave your TED Talk, you had just learned that she had been diagnosed with cancer, and you write about your family's journey and struggle with that in your book. So how is she, is she doing okay now?

[00:23:23] Wajahat Ali:
So Nusayba is my daughter. She just turned seven. She, we call her the Warrior Princess. She's a little diva. She went to the Taylor Swift movie concert because it's obligatory for all 12-year-old girls in under in America. It's like, you know how there's five pillars in Islam? Apparently one of the five pillars of America is if you're 12-year-old, if you're 12 and under and a girl, you have to go see Taylor Swift in some capacity. She does a little makeup. Her hair. She does two costume changes a day, crushing it in gymnastics and MMA, and this girl who is popular and full of life, four years ago, if you saw her, you would look at her and be like, this girl looks like she's a POW prisoner. Because she had lost so much of her weight, she had stage four cancer that he hepatoblastoma, that is a rare form of cancer. Right before she turned three, she needed a full liver transplant. We didn't know if she'd survive.

And fast forward now, and I think seeing Nusayba alive, how she was able to get a, a, a, a liver transplant. It makes people realize, “Oh, there's still good in this world and people still have the capacity to do good.” And maybe just maybe, God forbid, if something happened to me, maybe, maybe my kid could be like Nusayba.

I don't know how this story's gonna end. That's about letting go. Really. I don't know if she'll live. I don't know if she'll die, but damn it, I'll try my best to make sure that she's not a statistic or she's not unknown. So we share Nusayba’s story and as a result, over 500 people, mostly strangers, signed up to be a live liver donor.

To put it in perspective, Chris, if you get three to five people, it's a success. Georgetown, the, the hospital was shocked. They're like, “We had no idea that there's such a big supply. Oh, we just need to share this story.” And she got an anonymous liver donor, uh, that stepped up and gave a piece, uh, of her liver.

And then the, the doctor who performed the surgery on him, he was crying after I met him. At this time, he was still anonymous. I had no idea who this was, and he goes, “Listen, I've done hundreds of these surgeries,” and the doctor was crying and he goes, “I just wanna tell you this. Your daughter has a good man's liver in her.”

I'm like, “How do, how do you know that?” He goes, “When everyone else wakes up from surgery, you know what they ask?” I'm like, “What?” When can I go back to work? Am I okay? “You know what he asked? The first thing he said…” I said, “What?” “When can I donate again?” And so that experience reminded me that people still have the capacity to do good.

And out of those 500 people in the past couple of years, I've gotten emails that said, “I didn't match with your daughter, but I match with another kid.” I mean, that's amazing, man. That's those, you sit there and think like, “Wow, wow.” Look at that.

[00:26:11] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:26:11] Wajahat Ali:
Life. You know, some other kids are able to, to live.

[00:26:16] Chris Duffy:
You, you wrote a piece for the New York Times. It's called “My Toddler Survived Cancer, Then Came the Coronavirus” and, and you talked about how some of those skills of going through that terrible time of, of cancer and the liver transplant have then become skills that you used during COVID. But you said like, “Do everything you can to prepare, then let go.” We talked about that.
You said also to accept help. Obviously there's the help of getting the liver itself, but were there other ways that people showed up for you that really mattered?

[00:26:44] Wajahat Ali:
Yeah. I mean, look, uh, what I also realized was no one can do it alone. When I was going through what I was going through with my parents' incarceration, it was, it was very tough. A lot, you know, and, and I retreated into a shell of myself to protect myself. And I realized with time that it just doesn't work that way. You know? We all depend on each other. What Nusayba and her story kind of taught me was people still have the capacity to do good and be good. They just have to be invited. And it takes a community, it took a community to save this girl.

[00:27:18] Chris Duffy:
I think there's a real vulnerability that had to come with you asking for help but also you sharing such a, like a, a scary, intimate thing. And, and you talk in the book about how there's, there was a moment where you had this play that you had written that was so successful and you were, had pitched a TV show with Dave Eggers to HBO and yet at the same time when you told people, like, “I'm on the edge of homelessness, and I can't pay my bills,” people like didn't even register. They couldn't see that part of you. 'Cause they were just like, “You're killing it. You're doing such a great job.” And so I guess I, I, two part question, really, to that one is, do you feel seen now? And the second is how do you show all the sides of yourself in a way that you can be seen in a way that gives you the help when you need it. 'cause I know that was a real struggle back in the day.

[00:28:04] Wajahat Ali:
Just for those who are listening, imagine you are homeless and your uncle, at the last second before you're about to go to the homeless shelter with your mom says, “I have a room.”

And you move into a room as a grown ass man at the age of 30 with your mother, where you're sharing a bedroom and the bed with your mom and your dad's in jail. And the judge has given your mom six months to self-report, and your family's torn apart, and your grandmother's now living with your aunt and your dad's in jail, and you're preparing to drive your mother to prison in six months.

All of your friends see you as the one who made it. See you as the one who crushed it. See you as the one who's on New York Times. See you as the one who published the play. See you as the one who graduated from law school. There were these moments, Chris, where I was like, you know, I, I was in a shell of myself and I, and I rarely to never talk to people about what I was going through.

And the reason why is when I did tell people, nobody believed me, and I'm like, am I in a, like the worst Twilight Zone episode like ever ridden? Like I didn't know if it was like a horror episode of Twilight Zone or like a comedy episode, like a dark comedy. Writing the, the book and writing that chapter of the book, something that I had not shared in its fullness was, like, a major piece of the puzzle that for many people who knew me, they're like, "Now everything makes sense,” right?

You, you saw the entirety, the wholeness. And in that way, it was very cathartic and therapeutic, and also people were like. “Damn man, I respected you, but uh, wow, I really respect you now. I had no idea you went through that.” That's the power of being seen because in the absence of that, you, you gaslight yourself.

It's like, am I crazy? I know I'm not crazy. And they're like, “Ha ha, ha. You black people, you're just making it up about being shot by the police. Ha ha ha. There's no such thing as Islamophobia. Oh, you women stop whining and complaining,” and just think about that. Think about that if you cannot be the protagonist of your story and the audience that you're, you're, you're performing in front of, sees you as a fraud, you, you, you become invisible.

And that's why writing your own story, and, in particular, sharing your truth and having an audience that recognizes it, allows you to be seen. It allows you to be full, and it allows you to really engage in community. Which I believe gives you a connection that is necessary in this modern world.

[00:30:22] Chris Duffy:
If someone is looking at the world out there and they're feeling overwhelmed and they're feeling like there is so much suffering and violence and hate, and they're feeling hopeless, what are some practical things that they should do right now to not be swept away by those feelings?

[00:30:41] Wajahat Ali:
First and foremost, to acknowledge it. That you are overwhelmed, that you are nervous, that you're terrified, you're a human being. So acknowledging the truth of how you're feeling is step one. And as a middle-aged man, I could tell you Chris, our generation was not taught self-help.

Like, we didn't know what those words meant. So thank you, Gen Z, like, uh, for, for most men my age, uh, and older, it's like you suffer. You suffer quietly. That means you suffer well and then you die. That's it. You're anxious, you're depressed, you keep your mouth shut, you be a man, and then you die. And it's not a good way to live.

It's not a good way to die. Think about the people that you affect, your spouse, your loved ones, your kids, right? So first and foremost, it's okay to spend a little bit of time with yourself and acknowledge this is what I'm going through.

Also then I, as I've iterated, but I've gone through this, do everything that you can and then let go. Especially if you’re going through your, through hell. Another very self-destructive question is, “Why me?” Why me? Why did this happen to me? And the answer will never come. And if you indulge in that question, I, I assure you, it is spiritual, mental, and emotional quicksand. So instead of saying, “Why me?” Instead say, well, this is it. This is life. I have to live through it. “Why me?” doesn’t help.

Another aspect, and you, you touched upon it, community. We are not islands. It is okay to accept help, but to accept help, many of us have to actually tell people that we need their help. And that means opening yourself up to, uh, a community.

Two more things I'll say is give up on normal. Because oftentimes when we go through this, we're like, I'm not normal. What? What is normal? It's all relative, right? Your life is your normal. Live that. The practical advice is every single day, do something that gives you joy. Do something that makes you feel better. So if that's something silly, like I don't know, like, miming, but that makes you happy, then mime. If it's gardening garden. If it's cooking one meal, cook a meal. If it's playing Call of Duty. Play Call of Duty.

Finally, I would say remember what actually matters in life. You know, when you're stripped of your comfort, of your wealth, when it's time to go, is it your Tesla that matters? Is it your jewelry? Is it money? What actually matters? What really matters is relationships and experiences.

The quality of relationships and the quality of experiences that you have. So lean into that. Invest in those relationships that matter and, and try to invest in experiences that give you joy.

[00:33:27] Chris Duffy:
Great advice. Also, it's the first time that anyone has ever suggested being a mime and I love that. That's fantastic. Um, I am so glad that we had a chance to talk. I feel like so many of the things that you said are exactly what I needed to hear right now, and I'm gonna be thinking about for a long time. I'm sure that the listeners will feel the same way. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's been a real pleasure talking to you.

[00:33:45] Wajahat Ali:
Thank you, Chris, and, and good luck, uh, being a Daddy Duffy.

[00:33:49] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Oh God, that's the name. I don't know if I, how I feel about that title.

[00:33:53] Wajahat Ali:
Minivan is in your future, sir.

[00:33:55] Chris Duffy:
Oh, it’s in my future. I love the minivan. I'm coming for the minivan. There's no doubt about that.

That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Wajahat Ali. His book is called Go Back to Where You Came From: And Other Helpful Recommendations on How to Become an American.

I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and other projects at chrisduffycomedy.com. How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by the classically trained mimes, Daniela Balarezo, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and Joseph DeBrine. This episode was fact checked by Julia Dickerson and Matheus Salles, who make sure that our factual camels are always tied securely.

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