How can art hold space for your pain? (w/ Jessie Reyez) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. There's nothing that captures an emotion or sets a mood quite like music. I mean, there's a reason why you never hear about people sitting in their car making out to a podcast. And by the way, if you are currently making out to this podcast, ew. Please stop.

When it comes to capturing emotions, one of the most powerful musical genres is the breakup song. When you are aching and feeling lonely and hurt and sad sometimes the only thing that soothes that pain is a good breakup song. It's like the only person who knows exactly what you're feeling is the person singing about going through that exact same thing themselves.

And today's guest, Jessie Reyez knows all about that. She's a Grammy-nominated musician with more than a billion streams globally. She's performed at Coachella, made a cameo on Beyonce's Black is King visual album, and won four Juno awards. And here is what Jessie had to say in her TED talk about how she's used pain and heartbreak as fuel in some of her biggest creative breakthroughs.

[00:01:00] Jessie Reyez:
In March of 2016, I was just getting started as a songwriter. I was knee-deep in demos and potential, but I had nothing to show for it. AKA broke. And to top it off, I was incredibly heartbroken over someone who had betrayed me. One night, I went into the studio and I emotionally vomited into the microphone, kind of like what I did here.

The song I made that night ended up changing the course of my life forever. I made FIGURES. It went viral. I got signed. I went on tour. I made some bread. I officially retired my parents. I made an album, made another album, got called by TED talk and now I'm here with you lovely people.

Sounds great, but I'm not saying my life is perfect, and I obviously still deal with my fair share of problems. However, after that experience, I naturally came to subscribe to the school of thought that even when we can't see it in the moment, it seems as though the greater good is always working in our favor.

[00:02:10] Chris Duffy:
We will be right back in just a moment with more from Jessie, but first we're gonna have a few podcast ads working in our favor too. Don't go anywhere.

[BREAK]

[00:02:23] Jessie Reyez (singing):
The best advice I ever got was just to let it go. The family says I smile a lot more when I'm on my o-own, but when I finally feel free, you get the urge to message me, so you never miss a beat, and this song is on repeat. I still see you in my sleep. How come I still see you when I dream? I’ve been running from the truth but it don’t matter what I do. It never matters…

[00:02:53] Chris Duffy:
What you just heard was a clip from Jessie Reyez's Still C You. Jessie is here with us today to talk about pain, heartbreak, and how creativity and art can help you heal while transforming those feelings into something new.

[00:03:05] Jessie Reyez:
Hello, I am Jessie Reyez and I am an artist.

[00:03:09] Chris Duffy:
What's your process when you're making music? Do you start with the lyrics? Do you start with the sounds? How do you go about it?

[00:03:14] Jessie Reyez:
Usually, both come to me simultaneously, which I know isn't the, I've come to learn isn't the norm. The more I do sessions with people, it's more so, what, like for example, if I'm with my guitar, the chords will evoke a certain emotion and then the story will start.

You know, and it might be something that I saw that day. It might be something that I went through last year. It just, it varies. It's just… The only constant I think is life. So life will always show itself in my songs, but in terms of how I get there can vary. Whether it's the chorus, whether it's, if I'm listening to a producer's ideas in his Dropbox, every now and then it'll be lyric first, and very rarely will it ever be melody first. But I do all over.

[00:04:00] Chris Duffy:
What is the difference when you're writing a song for someone else versus one for yourself?

[00:04:04] Jessie Reyez:
The ones that people know that I've gotten placed with other people have usually just been me creating for myself. And then after the fact realizing that, like, the sweater I knit didn't fit as perfect as I wish it could, but it's still a beautiful sweater so it can live somewhere else.

But if I'm invited as a writer into a session, then the approach is different because first I understand that my, like my role when I walk into the room, I'm no longer driving. I'm no longer the captain. I'm no, you know, so I have to honor that.

And then I also honor to make sure that whatever it is we're making has chunks of truth of the artist. So, if, like of the primary singer, so if we're there and we haven't naturally come upon a topic, I'll usually ask them, “When's the last time you cried?” ‘Cause I feel like it serves as social acceleration.

[00:04:56] Chris Duffy:
Well, now I gotta ask you. What’s the last time you cried?

[00:04:58] Jessie Reyez:
The last time I cried. Three days. Four, three. Three days ago.

[00:05:04] Chris Duffy:
Last time I cried about three day—well, I cried like, not like an emotional cry, just like watching a TV show.

[00:05:09] Jessie Reyez:
Really?

[00:05:10] Chris Duffy:
A few days ago. Yeah.

[00:05:11] Jessie Reyez:
Wow.

[00:05:11] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Really. And it's also like so lame that I was just—

[00:05:14] Jessie Reyez:
It’s not lame.

[00:05:15] Chris Duffy:
It was just the Ted Lasso finale. I'm like, wow. That's the most basic cry you can have.

[00:05:19] Jessie Reyez:
Sometimes those so—pieces of work can be a motive.

[00:05:23] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. Also, the most like recent actually emotional cry I had was my mom had a health scare. And then when I got the news that she was okay, just like instantly burst into—
[00:05:32] Jessie Reyez: Oh, gratitude tears are, gratitude tears are like, are the best kind of tears. Gratitude tears are the best kind of tears. I do gratitude a lot actually.

[00:05:41] Chris Duffy:
Okay.

[00:05:41] Jessie Reyez:
Gratitude tears, sadness tears, heartbreak tears, anger tears, every—laughter tears. My eyes are faucets for many different titles, like it just, it'll happen.

[00:05:52] Chris Duffy:
I feel like one thing that I find really interesting about you and really compelling is you take so many different emotions and you put them into your music, but you also are, you know, you're really obviously a deep thinker.

I've listened to a bunch of your interviews and like you're talking about Eckhart Tolle. You're talking about, like, therapy. You're talking about your personal lived experience, but also the things that you're reading and learning in meditation. So, I'd love to get, uh, into that a little bit.

[00:06:14] Jessie Reyez:
Sure.

[00:06:14] Chris Duffy:
Like, I know that The Power of Now is a book that means a lot to you.

[00:06:17] Jessie Reyez:
Yes.

[00:06:17] Chris Duffy:
Tell me about that.

[00:06:18] Jessie Reyez:
It shifted me as a person. I wish I could have, like I, I definitely, um… I have yet to master everything that I've learned in that book. I can't wait till I get closer, but it gave me a gift, like it gave me a life hack.

Anyone who's read it and finished it has come back with the same feeling as me, which is like, “Oh my God, I wish I read it earlier. It's helped so much.” All in all, it's just, it teaches you about being present. It helped increase my quality of life a lot.

[00:06:45] Chris Duffy:
What has it changed in your day to day?

[00:06:47] Jessie Reyez:
How I connect with people, how I hold space for myself, how I hold space for my experience, how I hold space for my pain, for my happiness, how I… even like when I say hold space, even how I detach from it sometimes. Because sometimes the highs and lows come from gripping too much and thinking that you are what you feel, but you're not. The book details in a way that's much more eloquent than what I'm doing right now, but—

[00:07:11] Chris Duffy:
No, I think it's very eloquent,

[00:07:12] Jessie Reyez:
Thank you. But it… Yeah, it just, it teaches you about presence and it, um, it teaches you to not identify with what it is that you're feeling. And so it makes the burdens lighter because you realize, like, even your behaviors aren't you. You might have some shitty behaviors, but it's not you. And when you give yourself a little bit of grace, you give yourself space to grow above it.

[00:07:33] Chris Duffy:
You said that in a lot of your shows when you're playing, you'll have a moment where you kind of talk to the audience.

[00:07:39] Jessie Reyez:
Well, first I ask, since we're all friends now, ‘cause at that point in the show, it's usually been an hour. And I ask if everyone's comfortable enough to put their hand up if they're going through something at work, and then if they're going through something with their friends and if they're going through something with their partner and if they're going through something with their self and if they're going through some like, and it's just so interesting to see hands keep going up and up and up.

I've never played a show where it wasn't more than 50% of the hands going up, and I feel like there’s… First, there's comfort in knowing that like, you are not the only one suffering. And it’s… Someone could be like, “Yeah, but you shouldn't be like, ‘Oh, well things could be worse because this person's going through that.’ And so that's making me feel better.”

I know some people don't subscribe to that school thought, thinking that's healthy, but when you know that you're not so special that you're the only one that something rough is happening to, it kind of becomes a little bit easier to be like, “Okay, well I'm not targeted,” and it's, this is just what happens in life that I ask for the hands, and then I say, “Well, look around you. Like I hope you find comfort that we're all going through something and it can't be an accident that we're all suffering.”

But I think that one of the, like my guiding lights outside of the tunnel, and not to say that, like, I've come to my solution, but the way you find light in the tunnel, in the dark moments, I feel is having your own back and like taking a deep breath and realizing that you just, everything's, everything has to be okay. Everything's gonna be okay. It might not stay okay, but it can't rain forever, you know? And then everyone breathes. And then I might do some affirmations, and then I do my last song.

[00:09:08] Chris Duffy:
So how do you take that feeling? How do you turn that then into music? ‘Cause that has been such a source of creative fuel for you.

[00:09:15] Jessie Reyez:
It seems like it's a stepping stone. It's like a lily pad. That pain, ‘cause FIGURES, I didn't know that was gonna turn into my biggest song. I didn't know that FIGURES was gonna turn into the song that would ultimately, like, come to change my life. And it's just wild. And yeah, you just never know what kind of pain is gonna make you grow to the point that it's gonna accelerate your next chapter.

How do I do it? I don't know how I do it. It just happens. It's one of those beautiful things of life like that, like, I don't know. I'm just sad about something. I'll go into the studio, some chords play, and I feel, and then I open my mouth and I close my eyes and then all of a sudden something that wasn't there is there now.

[00:09:52] Chris Duffy:
If someone's listening and they're struggling and they're trying to figure out, “How can I transform this into art?”

[00:09:56] Jessie Reyez:
Oh my God. Yeah.

[00:09:57] Chris Duffy:
What would, what advice would you give them? Like try, what are the first steps?

[00:10:00] Jessie Reyez:
Try everything. Try everything. Try everything. But this is in life in general. Like, just find what you love and then drown in it. Sometimes people are scared to try because this society tells you that unless something is like, unless there's an exchange, unless something's giving you, you know something back, then you shouldn't really focus on it and you should go with your plan B that's more secure, which I get it.

Like money is, we live in a capitalistic society. You can't fucking ignore that. But if you're watching TV for an hour a day, you can give yourself an hour a day to explore whatever it is that your heart, your soul, your brain might be leaning towards. And I say “yet”, I don't say “yet” in a way that like, “Oh, well one day you'll be able to exploit it and one day you'll be able to make money off it.”

But I say “yet” because you might be lucky enough that you end up at some intersection in life where you can capitalize off it, and then simultaneously be happy with what you're doing because you found your vocation, or you're sitting in your vocation. But try everything and don't be scared about people judging you because the people that are judging you are just in the stands and they're too scared to try because of everything that I just listed.

But paint. If it doesn't work or you don't like what you painted, go to the gym. And if it's not for you, then try singing. And if it's not for you, then try writing. And if it's not for you, try building houses. And if it's not for you, try volunteering. Like, there's so many great different things that you could just try and it could turn into an outlet.

And it doesn't have to be necessarily creative, it could just be something that's like connection based or community-focused. But try, that's the only way you're gonna know is if you try.

[00:11:26] Chris Duffy:
Obviously, you've had huge success with music and with making your art in this type of way, but now that is also your job. Is there something that you do that's like your artistic creative release that is not at all trying to, like, be a career and it's just something that you're like, “I'm bad at this, but it's, that's like a free release for me”?

[00:11:43] Jessie Reyez:
Well, I'm not bad at it, but I love yoga.

[00:11:45] Chris Duffy:
Okay.

[00:11:45] Jessie Reyez:
But I would never… I’ve just been approached so many times with people being like, “We should get certified.” And I'm like, “For what, bro?” I don't wanna teach nobody. I just wanna go in and do my own thing. Like, I just love it. Camping. I get like, I love camping. I love being in nature. I love horses. I love volunteering at farms and just like helping with animals. I love…

And you could argue that I don't get money back from it, but what I get back from it is priceless. Like it's un—the peace I get back from everything that I just listed, the happiness I get back from everything I just listed. I can't even like begin to describe the way that it shifts my sadness over or any sadness that I might be dealing with, like to the side, you know? It brings, makes me hella present, which I love to— Surfing, fucking love.

Don't get nothing for it. If anything I get bruises, but I love it. I love it so much and it's, those are all things that I explored like, and honestly, I like to throw myself into things that scare me ‘cause it just makes me feel more powerful. And makes me feel like I'm getting stronger. And so doing those things, despite the fear and despite there not being some monetary exchange is, like, key because it's just happy.

[00:12:53] Chris Duffy:
So for you, how do you still keep that? Like how do you maintain that? Like, “I'm gonna do the thing that scares me.” Because once you have some success, it's kind of, there's a lot of forces trying to push you to just do the same thing then, the same thing you've done before. The safer thing, right? To like stay in your lane and you seem to really not do that. You're like, “I want to keep growing and challenging myself and doing this scary thing.”

[00:13:15] Jessie Reyez:
I’m more scared of fear than I am of judgment. So that's where I find my motivation because I'm more scared of keeping myself up at night with my own fears than I am with other people's thoughts. And honestly, I owe a lot to my parents too, ’cause it's not something that I had to make a massive effort to cultivate in myself ‘cause I was exposed to it young. ‘Cause I, I wanted to cut up curtains and make a dress, and if I wanted to go to school dressed that way, my mom would let me. I wasn't, I'm not saying they were like hippies and let me do everything, but in terms of like creativity, if I wanted to shave my head and dye my shit pink, I'd be allowed. If I wanted to go to school and wear my brother's clothes all week, I'd be allowed.

It wasn't a question of “What will they say?” And everyone goes through bullying, but I wasn't consoled by someone or by people or by family saying, “Well, maybe if you wore this,” or “Maybe if we bought you the cool thing,” or maybe if like, you know, in a way of trying to conform, I was more so consoled. in “Be yourself, you know, despite whatever they say.”

And I know a lot of people don't have that. I know a lot of people have parents that are very highly critical and want them to like, you know, my mom dealt with a lot too, ‘cause I know especially Latina moms, like people would criticize her and be like, “That's what you're letting your daughter wear? That's what you're letting your daughter do?”

It was beautiful because the judgment she got could have projected them on me and she didn't. And I think that's something that I've been able to, like, hold onto and it's blossomed more in my adulthood now.

[00:14:39] Chris Duffy:
Why do you think your parents were so open to that and so supportive of you challenging the norms?

[00:14:46] Jessie Reyez:
I don't know. Maybe some of it is because like they're immigrants and so we were already against it. We were already outsiders, anyway, you know? So maybe it was just an extension of that. But yeah, there was like, there was kids in my school that had Adidas and I was like, “God damn.” And I would get made fun of for the four striped shoe from Walmart.

And it was just normal. And then when I'd come home and be like, “They're making fun of me.” My dad would be like, “The four-stripe shoe does exactly what the three-stripe shoe does. You'll be fine.” So that kind of sticks with you too. But I think that had a role that played a role, the fact that we were already outsiders.

[00:15:23] Chris Duffy:
I've heard you talk about how one of the like markers of success for you is that you were able to retire your parents. Tell me about that feeling and also then more broadly, what does success look like for you?

[00:15:31] Jessie Reyez:
It was funny ‘cause I was practicing my TED talk in front of my nephew. And when I said that part, he was like, “I thought grandma and grandpa were already retired when you started doing music.”

And I was like, “Listen.” And I had to explain that ‘cause they kept cleaning houses. Like, my dad stopped his job at the fact—at the company he was at. But they would still clean houses, and they would still hustle all over Toronto. And then at one point I was going out on tour, and I was like, “I need y'all to stop, please.” Like it's, “I just need y'all to stop. I need y'all to chill. I need y'all to…” So then that's why I say “officially” to make sure it's clear ‘cause my nephew put his little hand up, was like, “Actually Tía…”

Um, success looks like my family never worrying. Success looks like joy. Success looks like paying it forward. Success looks like contributing to my community. Success looks like never going backwards. Success looks like being happy in my body or I don't know, but happy’s fleeting, but like at peace in my body, comfortable in my body, comfortable with what I'm doing, but simultaneously challenging the comfort zone because I want growth. So almost, success is finding balance and intersection between, like, outward outside accolades and in-internal peace.

[00:16:42] Chris Duffy:
Yeah. And where do you think you are in the process of finding that?

[00:16:46] Jessie Reyez:
Sometimes, some days I feel close and some days I feel far. But that's human. You know, it's just waves. So I think I'm getting closer. I hope I'm getting closer. I feel like I'm like the fucking stock market. You know, if you're looking at it closer, it looks so fucking turbulent. But if you step back and I'm like, “Well, actually, at least it's an upward trend.” You know? You know what I'm saying?

[00:17:08] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:17:08] Jessie Reyez:
That’s what I feel like, and I feel like you gotta count wins and you gotta count progress even when it doesn't look like it in, in the micro and the macro. It's definitely been progress.

[00:17:17] Chris Duffy:
I've never heard anyone else compare their internal emotional life to the Dow Jones, but I love it. We will be right back in just a moment with more from Jessie. But first we've got a few podcast ads. Don't go anywhere.

[BREAK]

[00:17:40] Jessie Reyez (singing):
I gave you ride or die and you gave games, love figures. I'm one crying ‘cause you just won't change. Love figures. I gave it all, and you gave me shit. Love figures. Yeah. I wish I could do exactly what you did. Wish I could hurt you back. Love, what would you do…

[00:18:13] Chris Duffy:
What you just heard was a clip from Jessie Reyez's FIGURES. Jessie is here with us today to talk about pain, heartbreak, and how creativity and art can help you to heal while transforming those feelings into something new.

You've written a lot of love songs, written a lot of songs about pain and heartbreak. Has writing those songs changed, or how has writing those songs changed the way that you think about love in your life now?

[00:18:35] Jessie Reyez:
I don't know how people feel better. I'd never feel better after I fucking leave. Like, the only thing that I'm like, “Oh, okay, cool,” is like, something came of it. But that's like, it's a like logistical perspective to be like, “Okay, cool. I was crying. Now something's here.” But I'm still crying. Like, it's not like I feel better. I feel better logistically. It's not something… You know, what's nice is like on stage—that feels cathartic, but it feels cathartic be not so much because something released and then I can step back and look. It feels cathartic ‘cause in the moment on stage, I'm forced to be as present as possible. So that presence is what makes me feel better as opposed to, like, the release of the song.

[00:19:17] Chris Duffy:
You know, I think something I've had to really learn, which I think is maybe more, like, culturally like-coded to men to, like, do is to not be able to like just hear pain, but to have to be like, “Oh, here's a solution, here's how I can fix it.”

And, like, the thing that I've learned a lot is that if you wanna actually make someone feel better, like, coming up with a bunch of solutions almost always makes them feel worse unless they're asking for it. But if you just say, like, “Yeah, I hear you,” being heard can really help someone. And I feel like that's one of the beautiful things about music, right, is like people who don't know you or will never meet you in person can feel heard and held and seen by your music.

[00:19:55] Jessie Reyez:
That’s sweet.

[00:19:56] Chris Duffy:
That’s a way of giving that out. So even though it doesn't make you feel better—

[00:19:59] Jessie Reyez:
Yeah.

[00:19:59] Chris Duffy:
—with the pain, at least, at least there's a purpose to it. Maybe.

[00:20:02] Jessie Reyez:
Equivalent exchange. Yeah. See, so gratitude tears. Like, this is empathy tears, ‘cause yeah. It makes it, um, mean more that it will have served a better purpose than just like emotional vomit. Like it's served for holding space for someone. Makes me emotional.

[00:20:17] Chris Duffy:
I've heard you say in some interviews about how, like, when you're going through hard times, one of the hard things about sharing that is that people don't want to hear that someone who's rich and successful has problems. There's so much truth to that.

But it also seems like that's like a hard prison to be in, to be like, “I have to live out the success and not have, like, a hard time too.” I mean, you're human. How do you balance the desire to, you know, not complain and to be grateful with also the, like, real suffering that you sometimes have to go through?

[00:20:47] Jessie Reyez:
I don't talk about it. I sing about it, and I don't know if it's the healthiest thing to do, but that's how I, that’s how I deal. But like, God forbid, I'm in a fucking emotional place with someone because it's like getting fucking a pound of molasses through the thinnest straw. But if you give me a pen or if you give me a microphone, all of a sudden the floodgates have opened. It hasn't proven to be the most healthy, though, in relationships, so I'm learning to be more communicative as a civilian and not as an artist.

[00:21:22] Chris Duffy:
There's a saying that people say in comedy a lot that’s, like, a kind of a, a mantra or like, a foundational principle of comedy is that comedy is tragedy plus time.

[00:21:31] Jessie Reyez:
Yep.

[00:21:32] Chris Duffy:
It’s interesting ‘cause it seems like, you know, breakup songs are like tragedy minus time. It's like, “Let’s get right into it.” Right? If it's too much time, then it doesn't feel acute anymore. But that's also raw. That's very raw and painful sometimes, too.

[00:21:44] Jessie Reyez:
Someone said that to me, they were like, “Are you scared that if you heal, you won't write anymore, like, great songs?” Because so many of my songs are sad. And I was like, if that was the case, like, I've been trying to drop my demons for years. I've been trying to clean out my skeleton, like the skeletons from my closet for years, and I've come to realize that it's just, there's no fucking finish line but a coffin, you know?

But the dirt, there's no finish line. 60-year-olds are making mistakes. Seven-year-olds are making mistakes. There's no finish line. It's just so funny. I remember being asked that question and some people being concerned about it. I'm like, “Yo, if I could be healthy, full stop. If I could be, like, if I could just find that, if I could, I would.” And these people are like, some people have asked me, be like, “Yeah, are you scared?” I'm like, “Alright. I'd, the way I'd run to the fucking make it easy button and be like, ‘Fuck the songs. I've done them. I've done it, I've done it. I've done the albums. I don't need to write any more sad songs. Fuck it. I just want, like, peace.’”

I would click the button immediately. That's crazy to me that people even think about that as being like me being concerned, like you purposely sabotage relat—someone asked me, “Do you think you ever purposely sabotage relationships to like you?” I said, “What? You think I would put myself through that? On purpose?”

These nuts. Never. Never, ever. I wish. So no, it doesn't. It, I could still write about a heartbreak that I went through when I was 16 if I sit there and think about it long enough. And I don't know if that's a skill or a curse, but it happens. Like, there’s still little, they're little bottles of memories that I might open it up and it might evaporate a little bit, but the liquid's still there. The potency's still there.

[00:23:24] Chris Duffy:
I’m glad to hear you say that ‘cause I think that one of the, like, dangerous myths that people sometimes believe, for artists, right, is that, like, you can't be like healthy or sober or stable and still make good art, right? Like, people think that art comes from suffering, but it feels like they're kind of missing a big piece of life, which is that, like, you can be healthy and stable and sober and you'll still experience suffering.

[00:23:45] Jessie Reyez:
And you’ll still suffer.

[00:23:46] Chris Duffy:
That’s part of life.

[00:23:47] Jessie Reyez:
Part of life.

[00:23:48] Chris Duffy:
But you can transform it into something else.

[00:23:49] Jessie Reyez:
Absolutely. ‘Cause it’s… The part of the reason I like to write is like, ‘cause it feels like I could just let it out and not get interrupted, you know? And it's a very honest reflection. Sometimes a sheet of paper can help hold more truth than a mirror, ‘cause you're just able to like fully exhale.

But with a person you can't. With a person, there’s pauses and moments and back and forth and holding space for both, and it's beautiful. It's a dance, it's a relationship. Not the best at that. So I'm taking steps and strides and like, learning to be better at that. And not just in like a romantic, like I'm talking about platonic, I'm talking about friendships and just holding space in, in relationships whenever emotions come up and not running.

[00:24:29] Chris Duffy:
If someone is trying to do this, right, like whether it's writing a song or making music or anything creative, they're trying to get that vulnerable, like that flow where it's just coming out of them and they're not self-conscious, and they're not thinking about it like you described, do you have any recommendations or tips or tricks for, like, how they can get into that space where they're not judging themselves or thinking about it and they're just putting it out? They're just getting the raw material out to make the art.

[00:24:54] Jessie Reyez:
Don't do it in front of strangers. Try to do it by yourself first to the point that you feel comfortable, you know? And then if you're in a world that requires collaboration, ‘cause sometimes I guess it's irrelevant, if you're in a world that, like if you wanna be a writer and you're looking to be more vulnerable, then I think the only practice is to, like, write. And don't stop writing and don't be scared of the shitty pieces because you have to make shitty pieces in order to get to the good ones. Unless you're, you know, Galileo, I'm sure had like, you know, pieces that he wasn’t the proudest of, so you just have to, you have to get through the mud to get to the flower, so do that. Don't be scared of the shitty pieces. Because you know, you're just one step closer to the good one.

[00:25:35] Chris Duffy:
That's a really fun idea too, is thinking of like Galileo's demos, like, “Well, this theory isn't really fully fleshed out yet. I'm just tossing this out there.” But it gets him closer to the actual discoveries.

[00:25:45] Jessie Reyez:
Yeah. So that, and then the idea of not doing it with strangers is because the second you feel guarded, you're fucked or been in sessions like that. Like when soon as someone's energy in the room feels just a little judgmental, I'm like, “It's not gonna work here.”

And you just need space to be yourself. And if you feel judged at all, it's not gonna work. And that includes judged on your own, like by yourself, but also by someone else. Like, God forbid that happens, just leave the room and do it by yourself. And exit or just, you know, I don't know. Something that that gives you safety to just exhale and not be concerned about someone else's opinion.

I can't wait to dive into that Rick Rubin book properly because he talks about how as creatives we have like, you know, this natural energy that just like, you know, will pop out this natural faucet that makes. And sometimes when we make, because the faucet is fluid, and something came without effort, we think it's inherently devoid of value because it wasn't worked for and it wasn't, there wasn't any sweat and blood and tears. But that's not always the case.

And it's fucked because you can even apply that to love. If someone's walking into a relationship and they're traumatized, and the love is easy and the love is peaceful, you're gonna second guess and you're gonna stutter and, and be concerned because it's peaceful, and it shouldn't feel this easy because you've been used to passion and resistance. And so because there isn't any blood, sweat and tears, maybe there's part of you that's not gonna value it accurately, and you then it just, it applies to both love and art and life.

And sometimes you need to just understand that you've been blessed. And just because something didn't hurt you or pull blood from you doesn't mean that it's not, it wasn't made that it's not great. So I've had to learn that. It's a dance, like I said, because sometimes it's still gonna be shit. So you have to learn how to critique yourself objectively.

And I think one of the tools in doing that is using time to your benefit. Because sometimes the day of, the song will sound great, but give it a bit, and sometimes the day of the song's gonna sound like shit. And then weeks later, all of a sudden you're at the grocery store humming this tune that you thought was lame, but it's sticky and you didn't know it was sticky, you know?

So I think it's just, it's that sometimes six months later you miss somebody that you didn't think you'd ever miss. So it's that. It's time. Maybe just give yourself time. Isn't that such a shitty answer? I hate when someone says, “How does this get better? Just give yourself some time.”

[00:28:19] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:28:19] Jessie Reyez:
Love that.

[00:28:19] Chris Duffy:
Well, the, I think this is the thing is like, often the times the like truth is not actually what we want to hear, right? Like we want to hear that, like, there is one easy trick that will flip your switch, and all of a sudden you won't feel pain anymore.

[00:28:33] Jessie Reyez:
Yeah, the easy button. Where the hell, where’s the easy button?

[00:28:34] Chris Duffy:
Someone, someone's out there, they're listening. They've been listening to your music, they're in it. Right? They're feeling it. They're in the midst of the relationship that is broken up and/or they're in that spot you just talked about where there's, it's six months later, and they're realizing they really miss a person they didn't think they were gonna miss. That's something you've thought about; you’ve thought about it artistically. You've lived that experience. What advice do you have for someone who's in those, in that kind of moment of heartbreak and longing?

[00:29:02] Jessie Reyez:
Fail faster. If it was a, if it was a union that, that you know, I don't know, ended peacefully and you still feel something, say something, you know. You might try to explore it. There might be something there, and if you explore it and shit goes left and maybe it's life and God telling you, “No, you had it right the first time.” But wondering is just gonna… Wondering is the worst. Just fail faster. And then once you've really failed, and you really hit rock bottom, then start, like, mending your wounds and knowing that you're not trying to move backwards.

Once you are there where you can wash your hands of it and know you've done everything, my God, use everything in your arsenal because all you're gonna do is prolong the suffering if you don't like, really use the tools. And the tools can be, like, going to the gym and the tools can be investing in a therapist and the tools can be investing in self-help books.

The tools can be journaling. The tools can be nature, the tools can be animals. The tools can be diving into work. The tools can be getting proper sleep. The tools can be staying hydrated. The tools can be eating properly and holding, like just looking out for yourself. But all of those things, they're just, they're literally, they're, it's your arsenal and it's the only thing that's gonna get you better.

Because yeah, time could work, but if time passes and you've done nothing to help yourself, you might be stuck and find yourself in the same place a year later. You know?

[00:30:18] Chris Duffy:
I think that maybe in the public eye you are, you know, you're known for some of these tough emotions. But you also, you clearly have a really good sense of humor too. You know, you're funny, you enjoy laughter. So I wonder what's the role that, that humor and that laughter plays in your life and in your creative process too?

[00:30:37] Jessie Reyez:
I love getting laughs in the studio with lines. I love playing songs and looking over and then like, in the whip and biz starts cracking up or someone will start cracking up with a punchline and shit just makes me happy.

I like South Park. I think it's had an effect on me as a, as a human being in terms of maybe finding certain things that I probably shouldn't find funny, and then finding humor in certain narratives that are in certain songs that maybe would be a little dark, if not said with a certain sarcastic ass timbre, maybe. I don't know.

[00:31:08] Chris Duffy:
Well, Jessie, it's been such a pleasure talking to you and you know, your music, your art, your life. You've brought so many people a sense of being seen and healing, and I hope that you find that same thing for yourself too.

[00:31:21] Jessie Reyez:
Thank you. Me too. I hope I find it too. Thank you.

[00:31:27] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you so much to today's guest, Jessie Reyez. Her latest album is called Yessie and it is so, so, so good. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find out more about me and sign up for my weekly newsletter at chrisduffycomedy.com.

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