Cord Jefferson's creativity is fueled by mental health (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Chris Duffy:
You are listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. When I think about the creative people who inspire me the most, besides them all being exceptionally talented at what they do, the other thing that unites them is that they're all kind of unpredictable. I love when you never quite know what project they're gonna take on next.

And when you look at the resume of today's guest, Cord Jefferson, that is exactly what you see. He's a journalist and an editor. He's worked in almost every medium from radio to print to television and film. He's now a director and an Emmy Award-winning writer who's worked on network sitcoms like The Good Place, big prestige shows like Succession, and superhero shows like Watchmen.

I'm a huge fan of Cord's work because no matter how different the genres of his shows or the mediums that he's working in are, there's always this thread that ties them all together.

[00:00:49] Cord Jefferson:
To me, the thread has always been that they are all ambitious in their own way, and they're all trying to do something new in their own way.

I think that The Good Place, for instance, is a sitcom about ethical philosophy. Sounds crazy, but it worked. And, and, and Mike Schur is, is brilliant and, and he made it work. And I was, you know, excited to work on it. Succession, in my mind, is the first successful British comedy in America, and the way that you get Americans to like British comedy is to call it a drama, ‘cause Americans, if they see somebody that they kind of dislike, they're like, “This isn't funny. Why am I supposed to be watching this person every week?” You know, Watchmen is a, a superhero story on its face, but it's also a superhero story that feels unlike any other superhero story that you've seen.

[00:01:37] Chris Duffy:
As you're gonna hear, behind all of Cord’s successes were a lot of failures, a lot of blows to his self-esteem. And that is something that Cord has been remarkably open about. So after this break, we're gonna hear more about how he deliberately cultivates and maintains that sense of vulnerability in his creative life and how you can do it too. Don't go anywhere.

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[00:02:06] Chris Duffy:
Today we are talking about vulnerability, creativity, and mental health with Emmy Award winner Cord Jefferson.

[00:02:11] Cord Jefferson:
I'm Cord Jefferson, and I am a writer, director, and producer of film and television.

[00:02:18] Chris Duffy:
So I'm, I'm curious about the nature of trying to take big swings and having those grand failures is that sometimes, there are these big successes, and obviously, like the ones that I'm asking you about are successes not only in that they're critically and artistically-beloved, but also that they exist. And there's a lot of times where you try something big and it doesn't even make it out, and there's this sense of wasting your time or it's just such a, a difficult process to put yourself out there. So how do you deal with, when you're taking these big swings and they don't work, how do… What's the role of failure for you?

[00:02:49] Cord Jefferson:
I mean, that's a very important question and one I think a lot of people don't really know if, unless you work in this industry, is that there are people who work on things for literally years of their life. You know, you're talking 5, 10, 15 years of, of effort on something that, you know, just dies eventually.

And just, you know, somewhere along the line of those, uh, over the course of those years, somebody just says, “I don't want to do this.” Even when it's close to the finish line, that can happen. Even when you're sort of very close to somebody saying, “This is gonna be my big break.” And it, for whatever reason, it, it didn't happen.

The failures far outnumber the successes in this industry. Something that I keep in mind is that all of this stuff is subjective. Art is subjective. Just because an executive, or even if five executives say that they don't like the idea and that they don't wanna make it, that doesn't mean that it's not good.

And that's something that I always try to keep in mind. I sort of envy sometimes athletes, because they have, like, a 40-yard dash time, they have, sort of like, a height that they can jump. They sort of, they, they’re, sort of like, tangible markers of ability and success, and I sort of really envy that because I think that in my profession there is no marker of, of skill. There is no marker of quality. You know? It, it's, it's sort of, it's, it's up to… Art is in the eye of the beholder. And so for me, that is incredibly frustrating because, you know, everybody thinks that what they're making is good. You know, or hopefully people, you know, I think that obviously people, you know, make things that they know are bad from time to time probably to get, to get a paycheck.

But, I think that a lot of people, most people, are making stuff that they think is of quality. And so, if you believe that something's of quality, it can get pretty dispiriting to have so many people in paid positions tell you that they disagree and that they don't wanna, that they don't wanna make this.

And so, I think that it's just incredibly important for me to keep in mind and for anybody in any creative industry to keep in mind that just because somebody says that they don't like something doesn't mean it's bad. There are countless articles that you can read about artists who, you know, people passed on every single thing that they were writing and then, you know, you realize that it's like, oh, they were passing on, like, The Godfather and Citizen Kane. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like all these things that, that are sort of truly like, in the canon of great art in America, like there are so many people who said no to these ideas and sort of like turned them down over and over and over again.

[00:05:12] Chris Duffy:
And those are the articles right now where for me, like I seek those out. I need those articles. I read those, and I'm like, “Yes.”

[00:05:19] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:20] Chris Duffy:
But I still think that there's, there's a lesson in there about failure and about how the meaning of what you're making creatively isn't necessarily determined by whoever is the, you know, quote-unquote “judge”.

[00:05:32] Cord Jefferson:
So when I started out… I’m from Tucson, Arizona, and my, my dad's a lawyer and my mother was a, was an educator. They went to graduate school, and they had sort of like professional degrees and all my parents' friends were professionals or firemen and you, you know, it was just kind of like standard jobs. And so to me, the world of, sort of like, creativity was something that people did on the coast. It's something people did in New York or San Francisco or Los Angeles.

I was assumed after college that eventually I'd go to law school and probably write on the side because I knew that I liked to write. I’d always, I’d been writing and sort of, you know, my mom said that she knew I was gonna be a writer when I was in elementary school, and it just took me forever to realize it. And I was on the school paper and I had this literary magazine I founded—or helped found—in college. And I just assumed that writing was gonna be a hobby that I had forever because to me, you know, people like me didn't weren't artists. Immediately outta college, I got this job at this nonprofit, this small nonprofit in Venice Beach, and every day that I would come home from that job, which I really didn't like, I would write.

And I would just sort of, I would start to write short stories and, and essays and, uh, you know, the work was not good. It was kind of like, I was very into This Amer—I mean, I'm still the very into This American Life, but I was like, especially into This American Life back then. And so I was writing, like, all these kind of like treacle-y personal essays that I thought would get on This American Life. And they were all rejected, reasonably so. They’re not, they weren't very good. But, but I just loved, I just loved it. I, that's what I, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to come home and write every day, and that is what got me by. It's what got me through, sort of, those years when I wasn't doing creative work for a living.

It sort of like allowed me to remember that I would come home, and this was my time and this was sort of, you know, I, I didn't owe a boss anything. I didn't owe anybody anything. It was just sort of me and my computer, and I could just write, and it felt really good. It's always something that, when I'm in sort of like tense or, or difficult moments when I'm like, “This is… I hate this. I hate the business side of this.”
And it's, I sort of like hate the bureaucracy and sort of like all the cooks in the kitchen and sort of like all the things that can be frustrating about working in entertainment. Something that always causes me to breathe a little, little easier is, is to remember that whatever goes on with the business, that I can always just go home to my computer and write. And just write something and write something that means… It's meaningful to me and write something that's sort of, I want to see made and has nothing to do with the business side of things.

That's always my safe haven, actually. That's always sort of like where I find comfort is that. That’s something that I, that I think applies to everybody, you know, is that just always be doing something that you, that you enjoy doing, that you love doing, because then what happens during the day doesn't necessarily matter.

So if, if, if my, if I have a script that is with, it's with a bunch of executives who don't understand it and don't like it and don't wanna make it, that can be dispiriting if that's the only thing that I have in my pocket at that time. But if I'm working on two, three other things that I really love that are just for me at the, at the moment, and I don't have to sort of like, I don't have get approval from a bunch of people in suits, like in Beverly Hills, then that's sort of, I still feel like I have some sense of control over my life and my, my creativity.

[00:08:45] Chris Duffy:
I think there's like a piece there that so many people sometimes miss when they think about making creative work or, or taking the next step with creative work, which is that you have to do it. You have to do it consistently. But then, there's a really important piece, which is you, there's the vulnerability and it's scary to tell people that you do this or to tell people that you want to do it. How do you get over that fear of actually putting out there the thing, I mean, even at this stage in your career, right?

Being like, “I wanna direct.” I'm sure that takes some confidence and takes some courage to overcome the internal voice to say like, “Don't say that. Just stick with what you already do.”

[00:09:21] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah. I think that that to me is about, that's sort of like a lesson I think is, is important for just life and no matter who you are, no matter, no matter what you do, is I am terrified all the time. I've got really severe anxiety. I’m taking medication to, to deal with my anxiety and depression. And, and so my entire life I've sort of like had a terrible fear that things are gonna go wrong constantly. And I went to this college called William and Mary, and it's, it's a very small sort of liberal arts school in, in Southern Virginia, and it's very academically rigorous, and it's near DC so there's a lot of people who want to get into politics.

You know, I've, I've old friends who have run for Congress and have worked with Supreme Court justices and, you know, big-time lawyers and consultants. I, right after college, I moved to Los Angeles and I was, I, I moved into this apartment with, uh, a guy who was, uh, who was a friend of a friend, and I, and I didn't have enough money for a bed or anything, so I just had a, I had a mattress on the floor.

I didn't have work. I felt embarrassed sometimes. I would sort of, when I, I would get into, you know, we'd go to, I go to weddings or, or go to sort of like people's birthdays and, and I'm talking to all these old friends who are doing all these big things. And meanwhile, I'm sleeping, sleeping on a mattress on the ground, and eating beans for dinner.

You know, and, and, and it's like, my dad told me to go to law school so many times, and I just kept sort of, and then when he realized that I wasn't gonna go to law school, he started recommending the Peace Corps to, to try to like figure, figure my life out. And I just, I just assured him that, you know, I was, I was going… I, I wanted to do this and that sort of, I was doing something that I really enjoyed, regardless of whether it was rewarding me financially at the, at the moment. And that went on for, you know, several years, several.

It took, it took a long time for me to actually sort of like have any amount of actual professional success and, and even longer to have any, any sort of like financial success. And so, yeah. I just think that it's definitely scary. It's frightening to be vulnerable.

It's certainly sometimes emotionally dangerous to be vulnerable because you're going to have people who laugh at you and scoff at your dreams, but you need to overcome that fear. For me that, you know, the greatest things in my life has al—have always been on sort of like the other side of fear and terror and sort of, if you can, if you can find a way to, to push through that and to sort of like, to ignore the voices in your head telling you that this is a, a fool's errand, you know.

It's not guaranteed, but uh, it's not guaranteed that you'll be professionally successful. It's not guaranteed that you'll be financially successful. But I can generally guarantee that you're going to find something good on the other side of that if you just sort of push through it.

[00:12:18] Chris Duffy:
Speaking of good things on the other side, we're gonna take a quick ad break and then we have so many more great insights from Cord coming up, so don't go anywhere.

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[00:12:36] Chris Duffy:
We’re talking with Cord Jefferson about how taking care of his mental health and being open about his challenges has fueled his creativity and enabled him to build a career as a critically-acclaimed writer. We're gonna play you a clip from Cord's Emmy Award acceptance speech. This is from when he won the award for his writing on Watchmen.

[00:12:51] Cord Jefferson:
Thank you to Babalu for reading all the drafts, uh, drafts 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 of the script. Thank you to Derek and Trey Jefferson. Thank you to my therapist, Ian. I am a different man than I was two years ago. I love you. You have, uh, changed my life in many ways.

[00:13:05] Chris Duffy:
Something that I, I admire so much about you when you talk about your work, you know, even in when you won your Emmy right? You, you publicly thanked your therapist. And on the one hand, I thought that there's something so hilarious about that because like every single other therapist in Hollywood was like, “Well, why didn’t my client thank me? Oh, why can't they all be Cord?” But, but I also think it's just such, like, a clear public way to, to not just destigmatize mental health. I sometimes feel like there's this like, focus on making it so like it's not bad but not enough on saying that it's actively good. That it's like a part of the process of being a full and caring human being. That it's a part of the creative process.

[00:13:46] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah.

[00:13:46] Chris Duffy:
And even right now, I mean, you've already referenced the ways in which doing this work around figuring out your fears, your anxiety, your depression, that those can really tie into making art, to being a full, realized creative person as well.

[00:14:02] Cord Jefferson:
You know, my, my mother told me that she thought that I had clinical depression when I was still in college. It was sort of an, and at the time I was like “No.” You know, because to me, clinical depression was people who couldn't get outta bed, people who couldn't feed themselves, people who couldn't hold down jobs.

You know, these, these were all things that I thought of as being sort of like depressed people. And I did all that stuff. I, I went to the gym. I exercised. I, you know, I, I hung out with friends. I sort of, I, I left my bedroom. So to me it was, it was like, “No, that’s… That’s other people.” And then more recently, I was talking to my therapist and, and he, he said, you know, our very first session he said, he said he thought I was clinically depressed and asked if I'd ever considered medication.

But for me, the thing that I was terrified about was that I would take medication, and then my creativity would go away. And then I would be a bad writer all of a sudden. And then, and then sort of, I, I needed these kinds of like, low lows to, to sort of be creative. And so I pushed it off and pushed it off and pushed it off for literally years.

And, and then it just sort of, you know, I was still struggling, and I, and I decided one day, okay, like, I'll try this. And so I started it last year, and it has opened up such a world, a new world for me. I feel like the greatest thing about it is that I actually don't feel any different, but people around me, people who love me, people who are my best friends and my family tell me that they notice a big difference in me, and that they notice that I'm more outgoing and eager to talk to people and, sort of like, eager to share ideas and eager to share things about myself.

And so all of these things that, that I was terrified about losing have only been augmented and, and become sort of greater in, in the wake of that. And I think that to me, it's made me a more social person. So it's made me want to be around people more. It's made me, it's made me less socially anxious, and it's made me, I think just a, a better human being to be around.

And so I think that those, allowing pathways into sort of like the human experience allowing me to encounter new people and talk to new people and share myself and, and then, you know, in turn have people share themselves with me, all of that stuff is helpful for a creative life and for a writer who, who needs to sort of, you know, use actual life experiences and actual conversations and, and actual ideas to, in order to sort of like, make art from that.

And also, you know, if you're a TV writer or a film writer, you're working in this, I feel like if your job is to create characters, then actually really diving deep into humanity and why human beings do the things that we do and why, you know, a painful moment from 20 years ago can affect and influence your decisions 20 years later and how, sort of like your difficulties with your parents or difficulties with your family or difficulties in romantic relationships, like how all of that stuff manifests itself into your decision-making and who you are as a human being at present and then the decisions that you're going to make.

The personal helpful is like, it's just obvious and clear. Like I just, I see it just within me. But also beyond that for the professional stuff, it's like it is incredibly helpful to just sort of look at why humans do the things that they do and, and to investigate, to investigate human decision-making and investigate our emotions and our fears and our jealousies, and our, and our angers. To investigate all that stuff is to me so, so, so important to actually doing the, the work that I do every day.

[00:17:26] Chris Duffy:
I mean, you've done so much public work around this, whether it's in, in scripted shows that are fictional or, you know, you, you did this piece for Invisibilia and for Pop-Up magazine about how you hated voicemail. You used to hate voicemail, and then now your most treasured possession is this one voicemail from your mom. And I thought that was such, like, a beautiful, moving piece.

[00:17:48] Cord Jefferson:
Thank you.

[00:17:48] Chris Duffy:
It’s also deeply, deeply personal, right? Like that's the kind of thing that I think some people probably wouldn't share publicly. So, I’m curious to hear you talk more about how you think about vulnerability in your work and, and how you think about, you know, bringing things up and, and sharing them.

[00:18:05] Cord Jefferson:
I think the stuff that I really like, that I'm really gravitate toward and the stuff that I really want to make and focus on is stuff that feels generous and stuff that feels like you are really sharing part of yourself and, and you are being a little bit vulnerable with these people and, and, and letting them see something that, that is meaningful to you. And to me, that’s the stuff that, that I always love. I, I, you know, I, I think that it's no surprise that so many novels are autobiographical and so many films are autobiographical and all these, sort of like, works of art that people really love are autobiographical because that's where the good stuff happens.

It's, it's when you're, it's when you're, you know, when you really feel like, “Oh, this is, this is this person's pain.” And they are generous enough to expose their pain because in the exposure of that pain, you can see yourself. And it sort of like helps you see that, like, you're not alone. We've reached this weird point in, I think, sort of like the world and the zeitgeist where I think that people have sort of like lost that.

You know, it's now just people have cameras on themselves at all times, and they're showing you every single aspect of their life. And they're, they're, you know, I think that it's, it's sometimes it can get a little, a little too personal and to the point where it's just like, it's just too transparent that you start to even sort of, you start to just lose what actually is yours.

And I think that it's important also to sort of keep things private and keep things personal and sort of think about them until maybe you're ready to use them in a, in a creative project. And maybe you're, maybe there's things that you'll never want to use in a creative project because they're too personal to you, and that's okay too.

But, I think that for me, the best stuff and the stuff that I really enjoy writing is a thing that’s, sort of like, it is like, “I feel bad when… I felt bad when this happened. This was devastating to me for this reason. And maybe, just maybe, you found this equally devastating when you see it or when you read it.”

We can sort of like have a connection that exists even though we've never met each other and may never meet ever. That we sort of like… It's a lifeline to sort of like throw out to other people and to have other people. When you make something like that, there is kind of a selfishness involved because when you are vulnerable, the hope is that nobody wants to be vulnerable and then have everybody scoff at them and make fun of them.

Like, the reason you're vulnerable is because you wanna sort of like build human connection. And so they think there is a selfishness involved sometimes when you, when you tell something super personal because you're hoping that, like, “Oh, this is, there's gonna be somebody out there who, who empathizes with this and who, who sort of, who I reach.”

And so, in doing that, you realize that you're not so alone also. So I think that… You know, that to me is always the generous art, is always the, is always to me the best art and the art that I wanna, that I wanna make and, and mostly consume.

[00:20:53] Chris Duffy:
I love that idea of generous art. And it also just makes me think that, to me, the, the things that I feel the deepest, most profound connection to are almost always when, whether it's autobiographical or whether it's totally fictional in a world that doesn't exist, you know, a fantasy world, where someone has, has taken something that I'm struggling with or struggling to articulate or to deal with and, and they've found meaning in it and they've processed it. And I think that what you're talking about of, you know, sometimes people just put everything out there, sometimes I think about that as like, it's people just putting it out without yet having found meaning or processed.

And it's almost like, you know, it's really helpful if there's a, if your toilet's overflowing and you go and search on YouTube for a video of how to stop the toilet overflowing. It's so helpful if someone has the pipe and the wrench and they show you how to do it.

[00:21:39] Cord Jefferson:
Absolutely.

[00:21:39] Chris Duffy:
And it's less helpful if they're like, “My toilet is also overflowing and I have no solutions.”

[00:21:44] Cord Jefferson:
Exactly. Exactly.

[00:21:44] Chris Duffy:
I’m like, “Well, I'm glad that I feel what you're feeling, but it, that's not what I'm looking for right now.”

[00:21:49] Cord Jefferson:
Exactly. It's very… It’s , it's become this interesting phenomenon. I was thinking about it the other day actually, just recently. It's become this sort of like trend to do something horrifically embarrassing and then Tweet it immediately. I always find, I always find that like fascinating is like, is like, you know, I just had this horrifically embarrassing or awkward interaction, or I did something horribly stupid, or, or, you know, I, I humiliated myself. And then sort of like the race to just put it, to tweet it immediately.

It's another thing that I saw in sort of like the, I think it's like died down a little bit, but there was a time when you had all these websites that, when I was still writing for the internet, so this was like back in like, you know, 2010, 2012, 2014, where there was this kind of scourge of personal essays about the most horrific, humiliating thing that happened to a human being.

Like it, and then sort of like, and “So there, I'm just gonna publish like the most humiliating or degrading or awful thing that I experienced in my life.” And you know, I would read those things sometimes, and I'd be like, “You were writing about this before, you've actually processed the full meaning of this in your life. And, and you are, you're just like exposing a wound because you know that the internet loves to look at exposed wounds and sort of like, loves to sort of like treat these things kind of as a sideshow, so you know that there's going to be like, value in that there are eyeballs looking at this.”

But, like, is there any re—real creative value? Is there any real emotional value? Is there any, is there any real literary artistic value that you're taking from this and that other people are taking from this? I think that, luckily, people have stopped doing that so regularly, and I think that that is the key is sort of, you know, vulnerability for vulnerability's sake is sometimes not the case. Like, vulnerability because you are, you've really processed this and sat with it and learned some lessons from it. That to me is a different thing than kind of just, like, tearing open your chest and showing everybody your heart on the internet for a few hours.

[00:23:46] Chris Duffy:
So, like, someone is listening to this, and they're not already into entertainment industry. Maybe they don't even live in this country. They’re somewhere else. What are three things that people can do to access this creativity and this vulnerability that we've been talking about? What are some practical things that, that you think people should do or that you've learned to do yourself?

[00:24:08] Cord Jefferson:
Uh, go to therapy. I think that everybody should go to therapy. I think that learning about yourself and exploring yourself and, and why you are that the way you are is incredibly important.

And I understand that not everybody can afford the, uh, the kinds of therapy that I do. But if you do research, there is group therapy classes that you can do, go to. A lot of people will, you know, there's places that will subsidize therapy and, and there, there, there are programs out there to help you work on your mental health that are, you know, free of charge in many places. And so even if you have to start there, I recommend starting there.

Two would be, I think to me, what I've, one of the things that I find in my life has been valuable is, is really focus on listening to other people and not, when, when you're in conversations with people, don't just wait until it's your turn to speak, and sort of like, and start thinking about what you're gonna say to this person. Like, actually listen to people and, and, and everybody has something interesting to share. And sort of, and, and I think that for me, it has only brought, like me being vulnerable, often I've noticed, like, brings out vulnerability in other people.

And that's special. And then when somebody is willing to be vulnerable with you and show you a side of them they don't show everybody, that's a, that's a meaningful, special connection. And that's important. That's important for being good at your job. That's important for being a good citizen of the world and sort, sort of active, actively listening and actively paying attention to the people around you.

And then the last thing I think is just, you know, try new things all the time. Constantly be doing something new. I think that we've, I've recently realized that, you know, there's a thing that you do… When you're a kid, you are trying new things all the time ‘cause the whole world is new to you. And so you're taking piano lessons and you're trying out tee-ball, and you're playing soccer and you're playing basketball and, and you're taking art class, and you're doing all this stuff that you're not good at because you're a kid and you're brand new and the whole world is new.

And eventually, you know, when you become an adult, you stop doing things that you're not good at, and you sort of like start, you start, you know, focusing on what adults focus on, which is like being comfortable and sort of like, like ensconcing yourself in comfort and doing the things you're good at. You find a job that hopefully you're good at. You, you know, find a place to live. You sort of like start to build a cocoon of comfort for yourself and peace, and that's reasonable because once, you know, who wants to be suffering all the time?

But I think that for me, getting away from this idea that, like, it's okay to be bad at things and it's okay to be afraid to try something. Like, you do that all the time when you're a kid. And when you become an adult, I just realized that it had been so long since I was, like, bad at something, and it's sort of like I actually didn't understand that I was frightened of.

And so I've recently taken it upon myself to just start doing stuff that I'm like, “Oh wait, I've never… You know, I, I never tried that. I'm not good at that. What if, what would it, what would it be like if I tried this?” And so for me, that was, that was directing a film. It was like, I've never directed a film before. I've never directed anything before. But, you know, let's try it. It was, it was the most terrifying thing that I've ever done. And I think that I was, you know, not perfect at it. And I think that I've got a lot to learn, but I did it and I learned. I learned how to do it and, and I feel I'm excited to try it again and, and, and to sort of like, continue down this path.

I think real failure is when you just, like, stop trying to grow. Like that to me is like real failures, like when you, when you give up on this idea that you can be a better person and you can grow as an individual. That to me is sort of like when you're really failing, and I, it's, it's like when you, I think just give up on and say like, “Okay, this is who I am and this is what I'm gonna be and this, these, this is my belief system and this is what I'm good at and this is what I'm not good at.” To me, that's the sort of like saddest decision an adult can make.

I think that's sort of, if, if you're, if you're waking up every day and saying like, “You know what? I'm gonna try this,” then regardless of what it is, regardless of who you are, that to me is sort of, there's beauty in that.

[00:28:17] Chris Duffy:
Something really resonated with me is, you know, your, your dad being like, “Please go to law school. Please go to law school. Please be in the Peace Corps.” My dad, personally right, like my dad is the first person in his family to go to college. He's the first person in his family to leave Michigan. And so—
[00:28:30] Cord Jefferson:
My dad too.

[00:28:31] Chris Duffy:
For him, stability was so big. My dad's biggest thing was, like, the idea of loving your work was like, “Sure, that's like icing on the cake.” But, like, what matters is that, like, you can provide for your family and that they're stable and reliable. And you know, my dad worked for 30 years for the Port Authority so that he could get a pension. Not ‘cause, like, he loved bridges and tunnels—

[00:28:50] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah.

[00:28:50] Chris Duffy:
—but because he is like, “Now I'm set.”

[00:28:52] Cord Jefferson:
Absolutely.

[00:28:52] Chris Duffy:
So when I told him that I was gonna leave my job teaching—a very clear, stable career that, you know, exists through recessions, everything—and that I was gonna try doing comedy, his initial reaction was like, “Well, you are continuing the grand Duffy tradition of your dad not being able to give you any practical advice about your life whatsoever.”

Like, “I, this is so foreign to me, I don't understand.” And I still feel like now, almost consistently, I, I feel like I've accomplished some things that I'm really proud of and I know that my dad is proud of me, but it's funny because every year he's just like, “So you don't need to borrow money from me? Incredible.” He can't believe it keeps working.

[00:29:30] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah. True.

[00:29:30] Chris Duffy:
And not in, like, a dismissive way. Like, that’s genuine. He's like, “It's incredible that this is happening.”

So, do you write for your parents or do you write despite your parents' voices? Like, how do you get past those, that idea of like you're trying to, to write for this specific person who's very, looms very large in your life. ‘Cause sometimes I, I think, like, am I making this for my dad and my mom or am I making it despite whether they may like it or not?

[00:29:53] Cord Jefferson:
Yeah.

[00:29:53] Chris Duffy:
Because it's actually not for them, it's for me.

[00:29:55] Cord Jefferson:
So I think that finding your own voice is very, very difficult, and it takes a long time. And certainly, my parents' voices are in my head. But, but I think that what I try to do is, is write in a way that is the way that I wanna write, but also understanding the lessons that my parents gave me so that they will probably be proud of me no matter what. Because I sort of, I'm writing with the sort of knowledge that I gleaned from them. And, and, and I think the two biggest lessons that I learned from my parents are the thing that I learned from my father is always think for yourself.

Never, sort of like, take given wisdom as your own. If you disagree with something, it's okay to disagree with it regard—it sort of goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, executives turning down your scripts and saying they don't like it. If you believe in it, and you sort of love it and this, and you think this is a good idea, it doesn't matter what these people say. So always think for yourself.

And then for my mother, the biggest lesson I learned from my mother was just have empathy for everyone and just be as kind as you can stomach to every single person that you meet. And I think that that, you know, having empathy is incredibly important. I th—and being non-judgmental, I think is incredibly important for creatives and, and particularly writers because, you know, if you sit down to write something and you sit down to write a villain without having empathy for that villain, then you're just gonna make some arch-comic book, sort of like cartoon villain, you know? And to me, the best villains are ones that you're like, you know what? Maybe disagree with this guy's methods, but I understand how he got there.

You know, I think that, that to me is, you know, I think that, you know, Sopranos, I think is a perfect example of a show that has empathy for a horrible human being, right? Like Tony Soprano is legitimately d—he’s a racist, he's a murderer, he's a misogynist. And yet, when you watch that show, you can't help but feel empathy for him because it is, like, an honest portrayal of what it means to be a human being and how, how our lives are difficult and, and, and sort of the things that happen at a person's past to make them do the bad things that they do today.

And so, when I sort of like take those lessons and I apply them into my work, I sort of think that I'm not necessarily writing for my parents, but I'm writing from my parents. I sort of am, I am, um, taking the sort of stuff that they taught me when I was younger and applying it to my work nowadays. And I think that, you know, I would hope that they, they enjoy it and appreciate it because of that.

Obviously, I'm sad because my mother died no matter what, but one of the, one of the things that makes me especially sad is that she's not around to see, see me find my voice. Because I think that, you know, when she died, it was seven years ago at this point. And you know, I had basically just started working in film and TV. And I think that every year and every day I think I find my, find my voice more and more, and, sort of, I’m able to apply the lessons that she taught me and the work that I do, and so, that makes me sad that she's not able to see that. But I think that the wisdom that she gave me is sort of in, in everything that I do.

[00:33:04] Chris Duffy:
Cord Jefferson, thank you so much for being on the show. It has been an absolute pleasure.

[00:33:07] Cord Jefferson:
Thank you. This is notes. The pleasure’s all mine. I really enjoyed it.

[00:33:13] Chris Duffy:
That is it for today's episode of How to Be a Better Human. Thank you to today's guest, Cord Jefferson. I am your host, Chris Duffy, and you can find more from me, including my weekly newsletter and information about my live comedy shows at chrisduffycomedy.com.

How to Be a Better Human is brought to you on the TED side by Anna Phelan, Whitney Pennington Rodgers, and Jimmy Gutierrez, who all deserve to go to The Good Place. Every episode of our show is professionally fact-checked, and this episode was fact-checked by Julia Dickerson and Erica Yuen, who every episode answered the question, “Who watches the Watchmen?” And the answer is fact-checkers. They have to watch everyone.

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