Will AI replace me? (w/ A.J. Jacobs) (Transcript)

[00:00:01] Anne Morriss:
Frances, I have a big thought to get us started today, which I've been thinking about a lot, which is that it's clear that the AI revolution is going to come for all of us. It may be more precise to say most of us, but the vast majority of us are not going to be untouched or unscathed by this clearly highly disruptive technology. How, how do we even think about this, knowing that most of what's going to happen to us is still in this category of known unknowns?

[00:00:32] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So I would say that a pessimistic view is resistance is futile.

[00:00:37] Anne Morriss:
Right. Right.

[00:00:37] Frances Frei:
But an optimistic view is awesome. I'm going to get to move stuff that I really shouldn't have been doing anyway off my plate. It is coming.

[00:00:46] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:00:46] Frances Frei:
And so resistance is futile.

[00:00:48] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:00:49] Frances Frei:
And I think it's going to be great. I remember when computers became a thing and instead of writing on paper, I got to have a word processor, and a lot of people were hesitant about using the word processor, but then all of us started using it, and it became good. AI is going to be another step-function change. Those of us that become early adopters are going to do better than late adopters. But here's the thing: all of us are going to adopt. So, my advice is to not put a catastrophic label on it—

[00:01:18] Anne Morriss:
Right—

[00:01:18] Frances Frei:
—and rather start playing with it and having fun. I love to use ChatGPT for research. As you know, I don't like the blank page. In fact, I will hide from the blank page and go to great lengths to avoid it. ChatGPT means I never have a blank page. I can ask it a well formulated question, and it gives me something. It's not great, but I'm not looking for great. I'm looking for non-blank page, and then I get to riff off of that. And so it really empowers people like me that don't like to be the first draft.

[00:01:52] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I mean, we, we get to see a lot of organizations deal with disruptive change on a more micro level. So disruptive change that affects the organization personally or the humans in an organization personally. I think the pattern that we observe that applies to this massive, arguably species-level disruption is that staying in a fetal position.

[00:02:17] Frances Frei:
[laughter]

[00:02:18] Anne Morriss:
Doesn’t, doesn’t get you very far.

[00:02:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:02:20] Anne Morriss:
You know, it may be an appropriate initial response, but I think the earlier that we can unclench as, as people and start to really deal sleeves up with the practical implications of this technology for our lives, I think the better.

[00:02:37] Frances Frei:
And I'll tell you why I love the prospect of this particular one. It has the, uh, potential to do things more efficiently and higher quality. And I love breaking the trade off between quality and efficiency. Love, love, love.

[00:02:50] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I think the optimistic, exciting perspective on this change, which is one we still have the opportunity to create, is that it honors human beings in a way that no other technology has before. Let's deploy human beings to do the things that we are really great at and that no machine will ever be able to do.

[00:03:09] Frances Frei:
Love.

[00:03:20] Anne Morriss:
I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:03:23] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School.

[00:003:26] Anne Morriss:
And this is Fixable, from the TED Audio Collective. On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens quickly, anything is fixable, and good solutions are often just a single conversation away.

[00:03:38] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today?

[00:03:39] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we have the honor of speaking with bestselling author A.J. Jacobs, who is famous for running some rather extraordinary experiments on his own life, and then writing up the results for the rest of us to learn from and enjoy. So, for example, he spent a year of his life attempting to follow every rule in the Bible.

[00:04:00] Frances Frei:
Whoa.

[00:04:02] Anne Morriss:
And yeah. It’s a, it's a big swing. And he's currently doing something not dissimilar, which is working on a book about living by an originalist interpretation of the American Constitution.

[00:04:15] Frances Frei:
Holy moly.

[00:04:17] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And he has a really interesting question for us today. So, let's listen to his voicemail.

[00:04:23] A.J. Jacobs:
Hello, Frances and Anne. This is A.J. Jacobs. I am a writer. I write nonfiction books, and I am stressing out, possibly freaking out because of robots, automation anxiety, uh, ChatGPT-4. I'm very nervous about it replacing me. I consider myself someone who generates a lot of ideas. Not all of them are good. Most of them are bad, actually. But some of them I think are good. And ChatGPT is just a machine devoted to generating ideas. So am I going to be replaced? That is a genuine worry, and I need your help. Thank you.

[00:05:07] Anne Morriss:
Whoa, this is a, this is a feeling that a lot of people are walking around with right now, given that, that the heat and light around this technology. Uh, some would say the hype, uh, but that's it, I think we're now hitting kind of anxiety at scale. What's your reaction, Frances?

[00:05:28] Frances Frei:
You know, a colleague of ours has long said all ambiguous information is interpreted negatively, and there's ambiguity about ChatGPT. And so we go, “Oh my gosh, it's going to replace us.” I don't think AI's going to replace very many people. Um, I think what's going to happen, though, is that we're going to be doing our jobs differently and that I guess is its own form of anxiety. But it's not a replacement anxiety.

To me, I just can't wait. There are so many things I want to outsource. Oh, my gosh. So many things I want to outsource. Um, and I, I, so I have a very positive frame. I think we're going to have a big step function of innovation, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for A.J.

[00:06:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I mean, I think to your point. The, the, the thing we know about AI right now is that we don't know what's going to happen. And in the absence of that clarity, we, we fill it in as human beings and typically fill it in negatively, I think, in these moments of of technological disruption. So let's see if we can be helpful, uh, in getting him into a place where he can productively engage with ambiguity.

[BREAK]

[00:06:37] Anne Morriss:
A.J. Jacobs, welcome to Fixable.

[00:06:45] A.J. Jacobs:
Thank you. I am delighted to be on Fixable.

[00:06:48] Anne Morriss:
It's an honor to host you. So before we jump in, we want to, uh, just talk a little bit about your work, because what you do is so interesting. So you've written a number of fantastic bestselling books.

[00:07:03] A.J. Jacobs:
Thank you for saying that.

[00:07:05] Anne Morriss:
I, Is this fair to say that, that the, the general genre here is is you running lifestyle experiments? Do you like the word “lifestyle experiments”?

[00:07:14] A.J. Jacobs:
Sure.

[00:07:14] Anne Morriss:
Alright.

[00:07:14] A.J. Jacobs:
Whatever you want to call them. But like I said, I, I run an experiment. So, for instance, um, I felt I needed more gratitude in my life. So I did one where I tried to thank a thousand people who had anything to do with my morning cup of coffee. So I went around the world in person, thanking the farmer and the barista and the truck driver and the logo designer. Uh, so that was called Thanks a Thousand because I literally thanked a thousand people.

I did another one called The Year of Living Biblically, where I tried to actually follow the rules of the Bible as literally as possible. So the famous ones like the Ten Commandments, but also ones like you can't shave the corners of your beard. And I didn't know where the corners were, so I just let the whole thing grow. So that kind of thing.

[00:08:07] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And your latest book, A.J., The Puzzler, you go deep on puzzles and try to figure out why we love them so much as a species.

[00:08:16] A.J. Jacobs:
Absolutely accurate. Yes. And it's about my love of all types of puzzles and, uh, like crosswords and Rubik's and everything else. And it's got puzzles in it. And actually it's being turned into a podcast called The Puzzler. So that'll be out in, uh, October from iHeart.

[00:08:34] Anne Morriss:
Very cool.

[00:08:34] A.J. Jacobs:
Yes.

[00:08:35] Anne Morriss:
One of us on this call, one of your hosts, really loves puzzles, but I’ll let her speak for herself on that one.

[00:08:41] A.J. Jacobs:
Which one it is… I’m guess it’s, it’s Frances.

[00:08:44] Frances Frei:
It’s Frances.

[00:08:45] A.J. Jacobs:
I thought so.

[00:08:47] Frances Frei:
I do, I love puzzles, but I will say I draw the limit at escape rooms. I don't know.

[00:08:53] A.J. Jacobs:
Really?

[00:08:53] Frances Frei:
I don’t know if escape rooms count as puzzles, but I don't want to be… I don't want my liberty to be based on my puzzling—

[00:09:01] A.J. Jacobs:
Interesting.

[00:09:02] Frances Frei:
—expertise. But from the comfort of my couch. Bring it.

[00:09:06] Anne Morriss:
You're on the crossword end of the spectrum.

[00:09:08] Frances Frei:
Yeah, yeah.

[00:09:10] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, I will tell you a secret. They don't actually lock the door because that would be illegal. So you could just walk out of an escape room.

[00:09:17] Frances Frei:
Yeah. You know what I'm not going to do?

[00:09:19] A.J. Jacobs:
What?

[00:09:19] Frances Frei:
Walk into an escape room just so I see no value proposition, that whole thing.

[00:09:25] A.J. Jacobs:
That solves it. That solves it there.

[00:09:25] Frances Frei:
So, but I like the public service announcement you just gave to other people who are going to do it.

[00:09:31] Anne Morriss:
I think we’re gonna do it. This is really helpful. What what draws you, do you think, to these big, messy, immersive projects?

[00:09:39] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, a lot of it has to do with, with, uh, curiosity, which is along with gratitude, my favorite, my absolute favorite emotion or drive. Uh, and—

[00:09:51] Anne Morriss:
It’s pretty magical.

[00:09:52] A.J. Jacobs:
Oh, it's the best. And, and I love the fact that I get to do this for a living because I get to dive into all of these different topics, whether it's religion or puzzles or health. And, and I'm starting out, you know, knowing very little, usually, almost always. And, and I try to bring the reader along on this crash course as I learn. And it's often I learn great stuff that I still use and take away with me. And then there are incredibly unpleasant parts as well. But that is what hopefully makes it a good book because if it were all fun and games, like who wants to read about that? They want to see me tortured a little. So I, I do do that as well.

[00:10:37] Anne Morriss:
Um, what’s most meaningful to you about this work?

[00:10:42] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, I guess there are two things. One would be those moments when, uh, when it's wonderful. Like, for instance, thanking the barista and even just having her telling me how much it means to have someone make eye contact with her. You know, that's so simple. And so, and then on the other side, I do love it in almost a masochistic way when something goes extremely wrong, but in a way that I know will be fun for others to read about.

[00:11:12] Anne Morriss:
What?

[00:11:12] A.J. Jacobs:
Like in the Bible, it says that if you take it really literally, um, the Old Testament, Leviticus talks about how you should not, uh, touch women when they were menstruating. And uh, and it goes further, though, it says that if a, a woman sits on a seat while she is menstruating, then the, uh, seat becomes impure. And my wife thought that was offensive. So she’s—which it probably is. So she sat in every seat in our apartment while she was menstruating. And I had to stand for the entire year so that I was like, that is, she, that was good. She was clever.

[00:11:50] Anne Morriss:
This is a marriage that’s working, I think, AJ. Yeah.

[00:11:55] A.J. Jacobs:
So far she stayed with me.

[00:11:57] Anne Morriss:
Wow. Let me ask the opposite. So when you, you mentioned up top there, were there moments that have, have been painful, but are there parts of these projects that are less meaningful to you, that are downright boring?

[00:12:11] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, one that comes to mind is actually writing them. I hate writing, which I you know, I'm a writer, which is, uh, I know maybe a wrong choice of profession in some ways, but I love the other parts of being a writer. I love the research, I love talking to people, I love reading, you know, these obscure books. I love talking about the book after it is written. I but I hate the actual writing part, sitting alone in a room with no one else. It's very depressing. Uh, so if there's a way to make that go faster, I don't know if AI can help with that. I mean, that might be the part that I have to do myself, but that's the first thing that comes to mind of the part I really don't like.

[00:12:57] Anne Morriss:
Um, so let's get into your problem. Tell us, in your words, what it is you're worried about.

[00:13:03] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, I'm worried about being replaced by a robot. That I will, uh, no longer be useful to this world and that a robot could do my job better. And of course, I'm not the first to point this out. I mean, for years, people were talking about how robots were going to replace factory workers and um, and that the, the secret was to get into a creative job ‘cause that and that is, you know, safe. Of course robots can't do that. But then ChatGPT came out, and it is remarkable and I went on it. Actually, a friend of mine was the one who first said, “I asked ChatGPT to come up with some book ideas in the style of A.J. Jacobs. And here are the answers.”

And, and I actually went on and did it myself. And first of all, so many ideas, just unbelievable quantity. And it was mixed. Some of them were not good at all, but, but a few of them were scarily good. Like, I'm not sure I would do them, but they were really intere—and, you know, one was called My Topsy Turvy Life by A.J. Jacobs, everything backwards. I eat dessert first, eat dinner for breakfast. Sleep wearing—

[00:14:24] Frances Frei:
Wear clothes inside out or backwards.

[00:14:27 A.J. Jacobs:
Yeah. There you go. You’re, you’re as good as, as ChatGPT.

[00:14:31] Frances Frei:
ChatGPT!

[00:14:31] A.J. Jacobs:
Uh—

[00:14:32] Anne Morriss:
Well, and what was your reaction to seeing this list?

[00:14:35] A.J. Jacobs:
I was alarmed. I mean, I was amazed. I thought this is unbelievable technology, but also alarmed. Like, I thought that humans were the only ones who could come up with creative ideas. But, I do genuinely think a lot of creativity is sort of mixing and matching existing ideas, and that's what ChatGPT does.

[00:15:01] Anne Morriss:
Um, you reveal in your choices and your writing a very creative, resilient, adaptive person. So if I think about the spectrum of humanity and the people are, who are going to do well in a world where AI gets integrated into our work lives, I would imagine you, like right up, right up there with the people who are, who, like, are most graceful about figuring out how to use this tool and adopting it quickly and early and, and using it to make their lives better. So, help, help me make sense of that.

[00:15:46] A.J. Jacobs:
I'm getting older, I think. You know, it's harder to, you get—

[00:15:49] Anne Morriss:
Oh, you’re so old, A.J. Yeah. I, I, we see you getting stuck in your ways.

[00:15:56] A.J. Jacobs:
Well. Yeah. Yeah. I fight it every day. I fight, I, ‘cause I know that that is the temptation. Like that is, you know, I, I've put in all this work, and I figured out how to, to write a book, and I'm going to stick with this, and I'm not going to change. I fight that because that is the comfortable thing to do. But it is hard. It gets harder and harder.

[00:16:16] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, summarize where we are in the storyline here.

[00:16:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah, So what I love about where we are is that for everyone, A.J. included, when there is an external shock of a technological revolution, what does it mean for us? And one of the points, A.J., that you make is that the younger are better than the older. Right? When we're older and successful, where you look to amortize the stuff we've done and the stuff we know and younger people aren't looking to amortize, they're looking to collect. It's sort of… It's a little bit like the growth mindset and the fixed mindset. It's a… but it's the amortized mindset that said, “I've gotten good at something, and now, where else can I apply it?”

[00:17:00] A.J. Jacobs:
Right. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, I have spent decades learning how to write books and I want to keep writing books, but I'm worried, will, will there be a market for books, you know, or, or because the ChatGPT AI is so prolific, it's just going to flood the market with ideas and writing. So will there be any room for a human?

[00:17:28] Anne Morriss:
And then I don't want to dwell too much on this dystopian future in your head A.J., but tell us a little bit. Is, is it a world where there is no room for creation because the robots are doing all parts of, say, for example, the, the types of projects, immersive projects that you do. Is that the fear?

[00:17:50] A.J. Jacobs:
I guess that is the dystopia. I mean, in one sense I do feel a little lucky because my books are so immersive in first person, so it would be hard for a robot to have his wife get angry at him for, you know, for—

[00:18:10] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I'm just I'm just going back to the scene in the apartment where—

[00:18:13] A.J. Jacobs:
Exactly. So, so in that sense, I do feel a little lucky. I mean, I think I would be even more nervous if my job were, you know, writing biographies of Harry Truman, which, uh, I’m worried that ChatGPT, that AI might be able to do, uh, as well.

[00:18:33] Anne Morriss:
This is an anxiety. It's widely shared in the creative community and beyond.

[00:18:37] A.J. Jacobs:
Right. And people are stopping access to their work because they don't want, uh, the, the, uh, AI to be able to use their creative vision to make other stuff.

[00:18:50] Anne Morriss:
Right. Right. Ah, and to have all these models trained on their work, uh, which is def-definitely an unresolved issue here. So I want to start, and this is partly just to open this conversation up spiritually. Ooh, let’s just get in the sandbox of how the robots could help you, A.J., with the current work that you're doing. So Frances, where does your head go with this? You’ve, you’ve played with this technology little bit more than I have.

[00:19:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So I like, and I do this in my profession, because there's teaching, teaching plans, case writing, and where my mind goes to is what do I like least, which is what Anne took you down, and can robots help me with what I like least. So I don't go to where I'm threatened the most. I go to what do I like the least? And I hate a blank sheet of paper.

[00:19:45] A.J. Jacobs:
Hmm.

[00:19:46] Frances Frei:
So for me, I can ask ChatGPT to give me a one page summary of the airline industry. And please make sure you cover this, this, and this, and Chat is better than any research associate I've ever worked with in terms of, like, will do precisely what you ask. Now, the art is asking the right precise questions. So what I would do for A.J. is you said what you really don't like is writing alone.

[00:20:17] A.J. Jacobs:
Right.

[00:20:18] Frances Frei:
Can ChatGPT be a partner to you in writing?

[00:20:25] A.J. Jacobs:
I love that idea. I mean, that is, I don't know why I haven't done that sooner. So thank you. I feel that, like you say, the blank page is, it’s much easier to work with the clay once the clay is out there than to try to create the clay out of thin air. So that is great. I am gonna try that.

[00:20:46] Frances Frei:
What you might do is you, all the parts you love are the parts that ChatGPT can't do it, can't do original research. Right? ChatGPT can only aggregate and summarize and predict existing things.

[00:21:01] A.J. Jacobs:
Right.

[00:21:01] Frances Frei:
Well, you have all, you love all the new stuff. Like, those are the, the, the original conversations and, all right.

[00:21:09] A.J. Jacobs:
Right.

[00:21:09] Frances Frei:
And so put all of your original research in there and then ask it to synthesize and find what are the five themes that um, millennials would find surprising in these notes.

[00:21:21] A.J. Jacobs:
Right.

[00:21:21] Frances Frei:
I just made that up. But you will have an endless list of those questions for it.

[00:21:26] A.J. Jacobs:
Oh, that's interesting.

[00:21:27] Frances Frei:
Now you have a thought partner. If you were going to describe that theme, describe that theme in one paragraph, two paragraphs, and three pages.

[00:21:35] A.J. Jacobs:
Wow. I never thought of using it as sort of a, um, almost a proxy audience to see, but that is really interesting.

[00:21:47] Anne Morriss:
So A.J. I want to go further in what we challenge you to do. I think you are uniquely positioned both because you genuinely feel this anxiety and because of this incredible body of work and, and skill set you have developed over decades in bringing the rest of us down this path.

[00:22:13] A.J. Jacobs:
Mm hmm. I like that.

[00:22:15] Anne Morriss:
So, I want to propose as your next project, just to get your reaction to this. Why not—

[00:22:19] Frances Frei:
Go right at it.

[00:22:21] Anne Morriss:
Why not, like your next book being, you know, how one man stopped fearing AI and made peace with the robots? Like, why not, like, run at this and help the rest of us figure it out?

[00:22:35] A.J. Jacobs:
I love it. I am in. If my publisher is in, I think it's a great idea. Like you say, run at it. Like, lean in, and sometimes the best writing is when it's conflicted, and it’s, It’s an area of conflict, and you don't know what to make of it. And I think this can be great. Yeah, uh, I'm a little scared of it, but, but I am gonna explore that.

[00:22:59] Frances Frei:
Which is perfect. That sounds like that's a requirement for, uh, for it being a compelling… You were probably a little scared to live by the Bible for a year.

[00:23:07] A.J. Jacobs:
Yes. Oh, yeah. Terrified. I was terrified of that. I was terrified of the reaction 'cause it's a very controversial topic. And this one, yeah, I'm also terrified. Like, you know, if the dystopia is real, and we don't say nice things about artificial intelligence, it'll get back at us.

[00:23:25] Anne Morriss:
But, and what I'm excited about this for, and this is, this is my idea. So A.J., yeah, take this with a grain of salt. But what I'm excited for you about this is it's so central to where your fellow humans are right now. Like—

[00:23:43] A.J. Jacobs:
Right.

[00:23:43] Anne Morriss:
—in terms of stakes and relevance. It just, it’s this beautiful combination of what you can uniquely do and where the rest of the species is right now in terms of anxiety. And that intersection feels so powerful to me.

[00:24:00] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, that is great. Yes, because, uh, my favorite kinds of projects are ones where, like you say, the stakes are high, where it’s, it's not just me trying to do something. It's trying to do something that will, uh, resonate with millions and hopefully help them negotiate their own relationship with AI or gratitude or religion, whatever.

[00:24:23] Anne Morriss:
And I, I don’t want to project, but I, I think, you know, you are pulling on this thread with so much grace and gratitude and cur—and these are all the emotions we're going to need as a species to resolve these issues. But that's not the emotions that are showing up in the current conversation.

[00:24:38] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, I am trying to do it with curiosity and uh, and actually the puzzle book taught me a good way to frame my life, which was trying to look at problems as puzzles because this problem is such a negative word and, and puzzles—

[00:24:59] Anne Morriss:
Ah, I love it. I love it.

[00:25:00] A.J. Jacobs:
Oh, thanks. Well, I came up with it and I—

[00:25:02] Anne Morriss:
We’re changing the Fixable tagline, like, don't bring us your problems. Bring us your puzzles.

[00:25:06] A.J. Jacobs:
Yes. Let’s try to solve it together.

[00:25:07] Frances Frei:
Exactly.

[00:25:08] A.J. Jacobs:
Can I tell you one thing? I thought it would be interesting to ask ChatGPT give what advice it had for me about the dangers of ChatGPT. So I did that literally just 10 minutes before because I couldn't get on; it was too busy. So I haven't digested it. But I think—

[00:25:30] Frances Frei:
Let’s… I'm ready to go head to head versus ChatGPT.

[00:25:33] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:25:33] A.J. Jacobs:
All right. All right. Let's see. And so you're not, you're not intimidated that it's going to replace you?

[00:25:38] Frances Frei:
I'm not. I'm not.

[00:25:40] A.J. Jacobs:
I love your optimism.

[00:25:40] Anne Morriss:
We’re, we’re overconfident advice givers. Yeah.

[00:25:44] Frances Frei:
I'm not saying it's a, it's a—

[00:25:46] Anne Morriss:
Saying it's accurate.

[00:25:46] Frances Frei:
I'm not saying that it's a feature and not a bug, but I'm not worried.

[00:25:51] A.J. Jacobs:
Okay, good. All right, here it is. The prompt was, “What advice do you have for author A.J. Jacobs for how he can adapt to a world with AI?” So it says, “Leverage the unique style,” was the number one, “Experiential exploration of AI. Jacobs could consider doing a de—”Wait.

[00:26:13] Anne Morriss:
Shut up.

[00:26:16] A.J. Jacobs:
I think this is what you suggested, Anne. I love it.

[00:26:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:26:20] A.J. Jacobs:
“Jacobs considered doing a deep dive into the world of AI, learning to code, parti”—Oh, so not quite the same, but—“participating in machine learning projects or even collaborating with AI to write articles or books.” Interesting.

[00:26:34] Frances Frei:
Yeah. That part Anne, part Frances.

[00:26:36] Anne Morriss:
So that's. That is awesome.

[00:26:38] A.J. Jacobs:
That is hilarious.

[00:26:40] Frances Frei:
Well, here's what I would say, A.J., when you when you heard us speak and when you read that, and be as honest as you can, um, what's your reaction to the two different?

[00:26:51] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, I am still drawn to humans. And even if you said the exact same thing, it would mean a lot more coming from you. I don't know if that's rational, but I still think you have the edge.

[00:27:05] Anne Morriss:
A.J., do you feel like we have, uh, solved the puzzle?

[00:27:09] A.J. Jacobs:
We have made great strides. I… One thing about real life I find, and puzzles that are different is that you never fully solve it.

[00:27:18] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:27:18] A.J. Jacobs:
You know, you make progress, and that's okay. Uh… so we've made a lot of progress. Uh, I don't think anyone will ever solve it fully. But, uh, I feel so much more optimistic. Uh, I'm going to try to stay in that mindset of optimism. This is an exciting new venture. Let's not treat it like, uh, it’s, it's fearful. It can go either way. It could be great for humanity or it could be terrible. So let's work to make it great.

[00:27:49] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. We’re in.

[00:27:49] A.J. Jacobs:
Listen, if this is my next book, uh, you are going to get a huge acknowledgment and I’m gonna be coming back to you for advice.

[00:27:58] Anne Morriss:
We are so rooting for you. You can attribute it to us or your search, your prep, your, or ChatGPT. We don't care.

[00:28:06] Frances Frei:
Yeah. We need no credit.

[00:28:07] Anne Morriss:
We need no credit. We're totally rooting for you. Um…

[00:28:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:28:11] A.J. Jacobs:
Love it.

[00:28:12] Anne Morriss:
Thank you so much.

[00:28:13] Frances Frei:
Thank you.

[00:28:14] A.J. Jacobs:
Well, thank you. You really have made me feel much more optimistic.

[00:28:37] Anne Morriss:
Frances, what do you think people listening who are not writers can learn from this conversation?

[00:28:44] Frances Frei:
I do think that there is something about the framing of when there is an external shock. Do we look at it from fear or from optimism? And perhaps we just, you know, it's easy to do the fear one. So maybe get all of that out, and then like for tomorrow, let's do it with only optimism. You know, our greatest form of compliment to someone is that they have their can-do lesbian spirit, right? That their inner lesbian comes out. Oh, my gosh, A.J. Jacobs had such a beautiful inner lesbian, and yet even he got daunted by AI, which is why I loved your recommendation so much. Um, so, I, it's how do we get a can do spirit towards whatever the external shock is that comes across?

[00:28:34] Anne Morriss:
And, and I think, I think an important caveat is that by can do we do not mean to ignore the risks and threats. I think it’s, it’s to be in motion, uh, as opposed to paralyzed by fear and anxiety, which is a normal human response. And yet in our experience, we, we walk into a lot of organizations where there's a lot of anxiety about change or some kind of disruption.

The antidote to that fear and anxiety is action. It is to be in motion not only to metabolize some of that fear, but to also get the resilient parts of the party.

[00:30:19] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:30:20] Anne Morriss:
Um, because that, you know, we're not going to get to a solution—

[00:30:24] Frances Frei:
By standing still.

[00:30:24] Anne Morriss:
By standing still or through fear and anxiety alone. And so we have to invite some other emotions into the conversation.

[00:30:32] Frances Frei:
Know when we think about the revolution of AI and ChatGPT being one manifestation of it, there are some jobs that are right in the crosshairs of it, right? Displacement is going to occur, but how do we make sure that it happens in such a way that we progress, that we are better?

[00:30:53] Anne Morriss:
I mean, I think there's two category. There's the displacement risk and then there's collateral damage. And I think one of the lessons of our work is that the progress is sustainable if we take care of the humans along the way. And I think it's a lesson that we learned the hard way, and at too high a price for, you know, Internet driven innovation. And I think that's part of the reason why the world is very focused on these risks now. It, and the truth is that we don't know. But how do we increase the probability of finding out and managing these risks?

[00:31:33] Frances Frei:
And what the other part of it that you made me think along with that is, and I want us to have fair economics. So if AI is using my ideas to give someone else profit, I would like my share of that profit.

[00:31:47] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:31:47] Frances Frei:
I think the fight over the pie, we should not leave up to AI. We, we want it.

[00:31:53] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:31:53] Frances Frei:
We want to battle for the intellectual property parts of it.

[00:31:58] Anne Morriss:
And I’m, I'm encouraged that that is front and center in the conversation, and I think we're going to solve it. It feels like a fixable problem. I think what we have an opportunity to do differently versus other kinds of innovation is really keep our eye on the prize of the unknown surprise risk that pops up along the way, like can we build systems that help us manage collateral damage that we can't yet even imagine?

[00:32:29] Frances Frei:
Yep.

[00:32:29] Anne Morriss:
I think the answer is yes. And I think A.J. Jacobs is part of that answer.

[00:32:34] Frances Frei:
I think he is too.

[00:32:39] Anne Morriss:
Fixable, as brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

[00:32:44] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei.

[00:32:46] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard.

[00:33:03] Frances Frei:
If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

[00:33:09] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing. If you can, please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

[00:33:16] Frances Frei:
And it totally helps the search algorithm.