Three relationships to help you win at work (w/ Master Fixer Carla Harris) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hello, Frances.

[00:00:02] Frances Frei:
Hi. Good morning, Beautiful.

[00:00:05] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, we’re on record for talking about the myth of meritocracy. So what is the myth of meritocracy?

[00:00:11] Frances Frei:
The myth of meritocracy is that everyone has equal access to competition. That's the false belief, I should say. And so the people who end up winning, they think they won solely because they're awesome. Right?

[00:00:24] Anne Morriss:
They’re the best.

[00:00:25] Frances Frei:
They’re the best. Yep.

[00:00:27] Anne Morriss:
And it's also this myth that organizations buy into. So, you know, we've told ourselves we're a meritocracy, but we keep hiring, promoting, and retaining the same types of people.

[00:00:39] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I, I mean, the way, the quickest test I have is if I go to an organization and it's all straight white men, and they, and every one of those straight white men tells me the reason they're there is because of a meritocracy.

[00:00:50] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:00:50] Frances Frei:
And they're like, “We, we hired the best people. They just all happened to be straight white men.”

[00:00:54] Anne Morriss:
Yep.

[00:00:55] Frances Frei:
And what turns out to be the case, far more often than not, is that they are the best straight white men they could find.

[00:01:02] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:01:02] Frances Frei:
They’re not the best people they could find, but they didn't know anyone other than straight white men.

[00:01:06] Anne Morriss:
Right, right.

[00:01:07] Frances Frei:
So it's a very narrow meritocracy.

[00:01:11] Anne Morriss:
Yes. And then I think our public service announcement on this is if the humans at the top of your organization bear little resemblance to the rest of your employees, the customers you serve, or the demographic distribution of the communities in which you operate, then we promise you, you’re not a meritocracy.

[00:01:32] Frances Frei:
Yes, exactly right. You, you were a very, and you know, and for people that… you’re a very narrow meritocracy.

[00:01:37] Anne Morriss:
Yes, yes. It's not that merit isn't material.

[00:01:40] Frances Frei:
Yeah. No.

[00:01:40] Anne Morriss:
It’s just relevant to a narrow demographic segment

[00:01:43] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:01:43] Anne Morriss:
Alright, so I wanna push on the other side of that a little bit because the other myth of meritocracy is that we could somehow build a fair and efficient marketplace where everyone just puts their head down and the best person wins.

That's also a fantasy 'cause that's just not how we're wired as human beings. We're wired biologically to preference the people we like. And of course we also tend to really like people who are really like us. And if we recognize that relationships are not just going to happen organically, at least not for all of us, then the question becomes, okay, how do we build them intentionally? And that's what we're going to be diving into today.

[00:02:24] Frances Frei:
I love it.

[00:02:27] Anne Morriss:
This is Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:02:31] Frances Frei:
And I’m Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:02:36] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[00:02:44] Frances Frei:
Today we'll be sharing a conversation about the three most important relationships we have at work, and we are gonna be guided in that conversation by the amazing Carla Harris.

[00:02:55] Anne Morriss:
The, the amazing, the, the legendary. For anyone who's not familiar, Carla is a trailblazer in the world of finance. She's authored multiple bestselling books, including Expect to Win, Strategize to Win, and most recently, Lead to Win. She's a captivating speaker. I, I can't wait to dig into this topic with her. I think she is the person on the planet, uh, with the most insight about this challenge of building strong relationships at work, and I think it's gonna be energizing and inspiring along the way.

Well, Carla Harris, welcome to Fixable.

[00:03:46] Carla Harris:
Ah, thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here, Anne.

[00:03:50] Anne Morriss:
Uh, Frances and I are, are so delighted to host you today. We've been giddy all day in anticipation of this conversation.

[00:03:59] Frances Frei:
I’m a very, I’m fangirling quite a lot here. I'm a very, very big fan and I'm, it's a privilege to get to meet you. A privilege.

[00:04:05] Carla Harris:
Ah, well, thank you. And vice versa, obviously I've seen you in, in the context and a couple of corporate contests speaking, so I too am a fan, ladies.

[00:04:13] Frances Frei:
Alright.

[00:04:13] Anne Morriss:
Fantastic. So we wanna talk to you today about building great relationships at work. Um, this myth that you have to go it alone gets, gets in the way of people asking for help, number one. But sometimes even performing the key tasks of leadership, which is a fundamentally other oriented effort.

[00:04:38] Carla Harris:
Yep.

[00:04:39] Anne Morriss:
It’s all about being wired into what other people need, what they can do, what they can contribute to the mission. You often say that you can't get to the top on your own.

[00:04:48] Carla Harris:
Nope.

[00:04:48] Anne Morriss:
It and it, it's certainly one of the costs of isolation. We're gonna get to some of the tactics in a minute, but I'm curious how you came to this realization and with so much conviction. Was, is there an origin story to this insight for you?

[00:05:07] Carla Harris:
Yeah. I'll tell you, it's not a particular story around leadership as much, as much as it was around sponsorship, you know? You've heard me tell the story in my TED Talk about, I was a year into it, and being in that room where the evaluative process was going on, and listening to how things were being decided. Somebody says your name and somebody says, “Superstar.” Somebody says another word, another name, and they're like, “Oh, you know, pretty good guy.” You know, good safe pair hands, and so another name. And somebody says, “Disaster. Disaster. The kid doesn't have a clue.”

And that was my “Huh. Oh boy, who's gonna be in the room speaking for me?” So that was, and I was a first year associate, had not yet completed my first year when I had that aha moment. So from there I realized, well, wait a minute. If you can't move throughout the organization and get to the top without somebody carrying your paper into the room, the room where all the big decisions about your career are made, guess what? Your job is to make sure that your people are pulling for you or you won't be successful long term.

[00:06:06] Anne Morriss:
Wow. Yeah, I mean, we’ve been in those rooms, um, and, and we've see, seen how powerful it is to, to come to that relationship with intention. One thing we found is that many people still hold onto this belief, and there are demographic tendencies. Ladies.

[00:06:23] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:06:24] Anne Morriss:
Um, that if I put my head down and do good work, the world is gonna reward me. And you have been explicit about challenging this myth of meritocracy, which we also find ourselves doing along the way.

[00:06:40] Carla Harris:
A-absolutely. Your work will not be the sole thing that would make all the difference, because by the time you get to a room where anything is being discussed, a promotion, a new assignment, a bonus. Ah, there are several other candidates that are being discussed at the same time. It's rarely just one, and nobody's really comparing the metrics.

[00:06:59] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:06:59] Carla Harris:
Well, does she work 80 hours and this one worked 70 hours? Or you know, did a client say that work was really great? But the client didn't say that work was really great. So there's a measure of subjectivity that's going to have to happen. And it's that something—

[00:07:13] Anne Morriss:
That’s just human. It’s human.

[00:07:14] Carla Harris:
Yeah, it's human.

[00:07:15] Anne Morriss:
And that’s the other thing, just to relate, like we take this all so personally, but there's an aspect of this that really is.

[00:07:21] Carla Harriss:
Absolutely.

[00:07:21] Anne Morriss:
Just about our superpowers as humans, where we build relationships.

[00:07:24] Carla Harris:
That's exactly right. And if nobody knows you in that room, and if you're just a person that is putting their head down and delivering, chances are nobody really knows you. Chances are all of that hard work that you've, you've done, it's been, uh, ascribed to somebody else in some way or form, right? So if nobody knows that that's really you, then when your name is called, they go to another name on the list. And it has nothing to do with your ability to do the job, but everything to do with whether or not somebody feels strongly enough to spend their currency on your behalf.

It is just that simple, and it is human nature and it's easy for everybody to identify in 'cause everybody's been in that room.

[00:08:02] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:08:02] Carla Harris:
Everybody’s been in a room, whether they said something or not, when they watched other people talk and other people advocate for other folks. And what happens if nobody advocates for you? You're not gonna get it. So I say to folks, if you are uncomfortable, you know, ringing your own bell saying, “I did this, I did that.” Then be liberal with the we pronoun.

[00:08:22] Anne Morriss:
Mm-Hmm, right.

[00:08:23] Carla Harris:
My team, so and so, or we did this. But guess who's telling the story?

[00:08:27] Anne Morriss:
Love it. Love it. All right, so let's get in, let's get into the tactics of this a little bit. Um, you talk about there being three critical relationships to have at work. Uh, what are the three?

[00:08:40] Carla Harris:
The advisor, the mentor, and the sponsor. The advisor is anybody in your environment that can answer any discreet question. “Oh, Frances, I'm gonna be working with Anne. Can you tell me about her? I'd like to get to know her before I start this.” Oh, Mabel, can you walk me through the weighted average cost of capital? I think you all do it differently than I did it in my old firm. Oh, Tanisha, I'm doing my first client presentation. I wanna make sure I don't miss any of the arguments. Walk me through the table of contents. Those are examples of discreet questions, and anybody in your environment that has the intellect and or the experience to answer the question, they get the advisor label.

[00:09:17] Anne Morriss:
Is anyone fair game in, as an advisor? How do I spot a good advisor in the wild?

[00:09:21] Carla Harris:
Usually it's the person you just started with, an organization. You just started an A, B, C department. Usually it's somebody in the A, B, C department that can walk you through what you ought to have in your first presentation, what it's like to do the first client presentation. They know somebody else in a different department you can ask. So anybody that can answer those kinds of questions, fair game.

[00:09:40] Anne Morriss:
Alright.

[00:09:41] Carla Harris:
They could be an advisor to you. You may use 'em one time. You may use 'em 15 times. That may be your go-to person. I still say advisor, but mentor is the person that you can tell the good, the bad, and the ugly to.

This is the person that you share the intimate details of your career with, your fears, your mistakes, your triumphs, your, your victories, your strategies. I'm here, I'd like to get here. Who do I work and how do I get there? And the difference between the advisor and the mentor is that the mentor gives you tailored advice.

[00:10:16] Anne Morriss:
Tailored to me and my—

[00:10:18] Carla Harris:
And to your career aspirations.

[00:10:19] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:10:19] Carla Harris:
If I know Annie and I know Frances, and they both wanna become executive vice presidents, I give them two different strategies. Because they are two different women, and my job is to give them tailored advice that they can successfully execute. So let's say that Frances is a in your face person. She likes to say it straight. No, chaser.

[00:10:39] Anne Morriss:
Hypothetically.

[00:10:39] Frances Frei:
Hypothetically.

[00:10:41] Carla Harris:
Hypothetically. And let's say that Anne is a little bit more quiet—

[00:10:45] Anne Morriss:
Little nicer, yeah.

[00:10:47] Carla Harris:
And let's say you're both gonna have a conversation with Jim, and let's say we all know that Jim can't take it straight. No chaser. He has a hard time with somebody trying to speak truth to power.

So for Anne I say, “Anne, go in with your normal style. You know, Jim likes to get it in paragraphs. He likes it softer. You can't hit him over the head, you gotta go round, around the way. So the way you tend to explain things. Right in the money. Just go, right on the money. Go in and do your thing.” That’s the advice that I give to Anne, but Frances, I say, “Okay, Frances, you know you can be straight. No chaser. He can't take it like that. He needs it softer. I'm gonna tell you, take five steps back. I'm gonna tell you to take your volume level down. I'm gonna tell you not bullet points, honey paragraphs, and be prepared to take it slow. You cannot show impatience with Jim.” So you see?

[00:11:35] Anne Morriss:
You gotta warm a boy up, Frances.

[00:11:37] Carla Harris:
You see how it was tailored to her? I told you both two different things. You're both talking to Jim, same subject, but now I've tailored the advice based on who you are, and that's what a mentor does. But which means a mentor has to know you very well in order to be able to give you that kind of tailored advice, which is why I say to most companies, if you're gonna have a program like that, please call it something else other than a mentoring program.

Because here's the issue. Most people have expectations around mentorship of straight no chaser.

[00:12:11] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:12:41] Carla Harris:
You gonna tell me exactly like it is?

[00:12:13] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:12:13] Carla Harris:
But if I'm just being assigned to you, Anne, there's no way I'm gonna give it to you straight. No chaser. Right?”

[00:12:18] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:!2:19] Carla Harris:
I’m gonna be like, “Well, I don't know Anne, I don't know what she's gonna say to Jim and, oh, you know, let me be a little bit careful ’til I get to know her.”

[00:12:25] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, yeah. Is, is the right way to think about it, like a, a good coach?

[00:12:28] Carla Harris:
You know, I, I would say a mentor, I would say is a good coach, but be careful because so many people do not give their coaches the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:12:39] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:12:39] Carla Harris:
You know, since you both are coaches, you know how long it takes before somebody gives you the real deal. And as a coach, you can generally tell you're getting the surface information.

[00:12:50] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:12:50] Carla Harris:
Four or five meetings into it. Now you're getting to the meat of it. Right?

[00:12:55] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:12:55] Carla Harris:
And that's why I say an advisory relationship can mature into a mentoring relationship.

[00:13:00] Anne Morriss:
And the, the real distinction is you want someone to be able to tell it to you straight.

[00:13:04] Carla Harris:
That's right. And they need to know you. That's the other thing.

[00:13:07] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:13:07] Carla Harris:
You know, you might get an advisor that'll tell it to you straight, but they can't give it to you in a way that you can absorb it and execute it, right? And, and so, so that's why they have to know you very well because they need to know how to dispense this information to you and they need to feel comfortable.

And you, if you're the mentee, you need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this person has your best interest at heart. And I say to people all the time, if you are not clear that this person has one agenda item when they're talking to you, and that's you, that with all due respect, I leave that advisor label there, not give them the mentor label.

[00:13:44] Anne Morriss:
And does this mentor label have to be formally, like, consented to, I mean, how, how formal do I have to be with this stuff?

[00:13:53] Carla Harris:
I’ll tell you, there are a few mentors that I've anointed in the moment, right?

[00:13:56] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. So…

[00:13:56] Carla Harris:
I’ve said, I've said to people, “Listen, I consider you a mentor because. You know, you give it to me straight. You know me very well. I believe you have my best interests at heart. So just know that I'm thinking about you as a mentor.” So I've had those kinds of conversations. And then there are others where you could just say, you know, “Would you be willing to be my mentor and hear my expectations around what that looks like?” Right? So the person can decide in a moment if they can make that level of commitment to you.

[00:14:22] Anne Morriss:
Great, and it doesn't have to be someone inside my own organization.

[00:14:25] Carla Harris:
Ooh, thank you for that. I say all the time to people that your advisor is likely within your organization. Your sponsor must be within your organization, but your mentor does not have to be within your organization. Nor do they need to look like you. They just need to understand your context. They need to understand the context that you're working in in order to give you the tailored advice that you can successfully execute.

[00:14:53] Anne Morriss:
I love it. Love it. Alright, let's get into sponsorship because like, this is such a huge unlock for people as individuals, I think for organizations, for building talent, marketplaces, for lack of a, of a better metaphor.

Um, but just creating an organization where people can thrive. For instance, I'm gonna ask you to tee us up for this one. If you were gonna make the case for why an organization should put energy into this. Leaders should put energy into this one. Where does your beautiful mind start?

[00:15:24] Frances Frei:
Yeah, I'll build on it. On top of the advisor is discreet. The mentor can handle the good, bad, and ugly. Um, and then the sponsor is the person who exists in your absence. And so advisor and mentor are what happens in your presence and the sponsor is what happens in your absence. That's what it feels.

[00:15:47] Anne Morriss:
Does, does that, Carla, does that ring true?
[00:15:49] Carla Harris:
I like it. Absolutely.

[00:15:51] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah. So what is your case for sponsorship?

[00:15:53] Carla Harris:
It's so important because none of these organizations are mature enough to have an element of equity and fairness on their own, right? And as you said, it's a natural human thing to have a conversation about somebody, and if you feel passionately about that person, to speak, ut here's the deal, if you have not had close proximity to that person, then there's a lack of familiarity, which is the thing. That promotes or evokes you to speak, right?

[00:16:22] Anne Morriss:
Yes. Yes.

[00:16:23] Carla Harris:
And so this, the, the formal sponsor programs are important because I have found no organization so mature enough that it organically just happens on its own.

And I would argue that for the years that we were not talking about sponsorship actively, people weren't even aware of what they were doing on, in a default. You know, they'd get in a room where decisions are made. And by the way, those rooms were not diverse.

[00:16:47] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:16:47] Carla Harris:
So if, if you are apt to talk about candidates that you know, chances are you might have seen some of the female and candidates of color, but you didn't really know them.

[00:16:59] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Right.

[00:17:00] Carla Harris:
So it would not be default to talk about them.

[00:17:03] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:17:03] Carla Harris:
And now you layer on a culture or an environment where even if you wanted to say something about, you know, Candace, or, or Jimmy, if you didn't think it would be a popular point of view in that room, you might not have said it.

[00:17:18] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:17:18] Carla Harris:
So for all kinds of reasons, you know, inequities were, you know, perpetuated, let's say, and without some kind of formal acknowledgement that you are making decisions based on feelings and facts.

[00:17:33] Anne Morriss:
You are, ladies and gentlemen. Yeah. Right.

[00:17:34] Carla Harris:
You keep doing it. And that's why having an, a formal sponsor program or an acknowledgement that that is needed is the thing to break through those kinds of things so that your best candidates, black, white, blue or green, male, female, or whatever, that they get the shot to be able to contribute at the highest level for your organization, because you, as an organization, you are leaving something on the table.

[00:17:59] Frances Frei:
You know what I’m realizing now is that when people have multiple sponsors, we say, “Look how great they are. They have multiple sponsors.” Like they earned them.

[00:18:08] Anne Morriss:
But you observe that as a sign of how good they are, not how good they are at recruiting sponsors. Right.

[00:18:14] Frances Frei:
That’s exactly right. So we, we have seen, so we have cases where there's a line of people that wanna speak about them. And so we're like, “They must be great. They have a line of people,” and then someone else who doesn't have a line of people, they must be bad, they don't have a line of people. Um, and having a formal program would, would take care of this. Is that true? Or would we—

[00:18:34] Carla Harris:
Yes. Because then you can be more active—

[00:18:38] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:18:39] Carla Harriss:
—about making sure that they get visibility with all of these people. That’s the thing.

[00:18:44] Frances Frei:
This is revolutionary, honestly for, for an environment like ours where we think it's all meritocracy and we don't, and we feel like this is like, like kind of dirty dealing in some way, and somebody trying to put a thumb on the scale. You’re.Our listeners can't see, but you are shaking your head back and forth like, no, no, no, this isn’t…

[00:19:00] Carla Harris:
Not, not at all. Because if at the end of the day I actively try to get you in front of, of Mel and Michael and Mary and you know, Manish, um. They all sort of have a mediocre experience with you. Okay, well then you know what the market is speaking.

[00:19:16] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:19:17] Carla Harris:
But if now Manish has a very positive experience with you, and Mel is pretty good, and Maryse says, you know, I don't know, you know, but now you have a, a real marketplace, right?

[00:19:28] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:19:28] Carla Harris:
You have somebody, and now, and now maybe Manish, who never speaks up for anybody, says, “Well, let me tell you why.” Now guess what's gonna happen? Everybody's like, “Hm. wait a minute, he's talking. So it must be!”

[00:19:41] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:19:41] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. That's great. Well, Carla, let me ask about the flip side. If I'm in an organization that has not invested in this revolutionary formal sponsorship program, or doesn't do this very well, what coaching would you give me on how to find and activate a great sponsor?

[00:19:58] Carla Harris:
Yeah. So here's what I tell people. Number one, study your organization for about two weeks so that you can understand who has a seat at the decision making table. Number two, who does not have a seat at the decision making table, but who is a key influencer to those who do? And number three, who are the toxic folks?

'Cause you need to understand how to manage those as well. Once you figure out who has a seat at the decision making table, on a second sheet of paper, now you say: of those people who has visibility into my work? Because remember, your sponsor does not need to be in your direct reporting line, but they have to have visibility into your work.

Because if I go into that decision making room and I'm pounding the table for Frances, and everybody knows I don't work with her, I have no credibility in that room. Right? So your sponsor has to have some visibility into your work. And now the third sheet of paper, of those people who have a seat at decision making table who have visibility into your work, who are the two or three people that you can invest in a relationship with so that the sponsorship happens organically or it now gives you the ability for you to say, “Hey, listen man, I know you guys are gonna have a conversation. You know, I sort of consider you as a sponsor 'cause you've done A, B, and C. I hope that you feel comfortable spending some currency on me in that conversation. 'Cause here's why I think I deserve it, or why it would be important for me to do that.”

[00:21:19] Anne Morriss:
Wow.

[00:21:19] Carla Harris:
But now we have a relationship. I have the basis upon which to have that conversation.

[00:21:24] Frances Frei:
Will you say more about what investing in that relationship looks like from the person who is trying to cultivate a sponsor?

[00:21:30] Carla Harris:
Absolutely. Spending more time with that relationship. I tell people, building a relationship in your professional life is almost easier than in your personal life because the way that you build a relationship in, in any environment, especially in your personal life, it’s frequency of touch, right? We're just sitting down together for the first time today, but let's say in two or three weeks you guys come to New York and we have some drinks in, in New York and oh, January, I'm up at HBS and we happen to have a conversation.

Well, by March, both of all three of us would say we have a relationship with each other, right? It's frequency of touch and in, in, in corporate environments it's light touches. And people think that they know you. So investing means, okay, I'll go by Anne's office and I say, “Hey, listen, let's have some coffee.”And then I said, “Oh, you know, by the way, I got tickets to so-and-so. I know you love dance. I think you might like this.” And then I say, “You know what? I got an issue. I need some help with this. I'm not sure how to think about this.” So touch. That's three in a month. So, and that's what I mean by investing in an opportunity for us to interact.

And before you know it, at least the foundation, if not the very thing has, has already created itself, the relationship.

[00:22:42] Anne Morriss:
Now, Carla, let me ask you this, um, because your EQ is off the charts—

[00:22:47] Frances Frei:
Is, is off the charts.

[00:22:48] Anne Morriss:
So how would you adapt that strategy for, um, somebody hypothetically, a little more introverted?

[00:22:54] Carla Harris:
Yes.

[00:22:55] Anne Morriss:
Who, if she saw you walking down the hallway with like, tickets to the show, would run and hide in her office and lock the door. This, I'm just spitballing. Um, how would you adapt that for—

[00:23:07] Frances Frei:
Frances?

[00:23:08] Anne Morriss:
For, for, for Dr. Frei to my left. For whom frequency is probably not the right metric.

[00:23:16] Carla Harris:
Okay. So I know that the sponsor candidate prefers light, light touches. Then I'm probably—

[00:23:24] Anne Morriss:
She prefers no touches, so that's what you have to work around.

[00:23:26] Frances Frei:
But she's a great sponsor.

[00:23:28] Anne Morriss:
But she's a really good, but she's an extraordinary sponsor. If you can get her the information to be in that room—

[00:23:35] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:35] Anne Morriss:
She will change hearts and minds.

[00:23:37] Carla Harris:
Okay, so she's somebody that might not take four touches to build a relationship, she might need one meaningful interaction.

[00:23:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:45] Anne Morriss:
One high quality touch.

[00:23:47] Carla Harris:
And if I know that about her, then maybe in that case I do office hours for 20 minutes or a half an hour.

[00:23:54] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:54] Carla Harris:
And I make sure that I have a rock solid agenda when I walk in her office, that I'm not “Oh, you know, what are you gonna do with your family for the holidays?” No, I'm very directed.

[00:24:04] Anne Morriss:
Oh my god. She’s panicking. At that point in the conversation, she's panicking.

[00:24:05] Carla Harris:
Right? So I'm very directed. If I know she likes it like that, then I'm going in with an agenda. “Thank you Dr. Frei, for taking some time with me. I got five things I wanna talk to you about today.” Now her mind is already thinking, “Five. Okay. Let's have it,” right? And then I'll go one. Boom, two boom. And I get to my ask, and I get to my expectations, all in what?

[00:24:25] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:25] Carla Harris:
And I trust the fact that because she needs it like that, I don't have to go again.

[00:24:30] Frances Frei:
No, it's, it's so good.

[00:24:31] Anne Morriss:
This is so good. You are a magician.

[00:24:35] Frances Frei:
And you might have used the advisor to have the discreet conversation of, how does Frances like it?

[00:24:40] Carla Harris:
Mm-Hmm, absolutely.

[00:24:42] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:43] Anne Morriss:
Oh, that's so good.

[00:24:45] Frances Frei:
The world needs this, Carla. The whole world needs this.

[00:24:47] Anne Morriss:
Uh, but I don't, I'm not ready to wrap it up. I have one more question.

[00:24:51] Frances Frei:
No, I'm not, I wasn't wrapping it up. I'm just giving a comment.

[00:24:54] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm, because I want coaching from both of you on this. I'm in the big room. What advice would you give me on how to be a great sponsor in that moment?

[00:25:05] Frances Frei:
In the big room? In the big room?

[00:25:06] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I'm in the big room now.

[00:25:07] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:25:08] Anne Morriss:
And I'm, and I'm selling my friend, uh, Manoush, who, who is an advisor here. Okay.

[00:25:11] Carla Harris:
Okay. All right. Yep. Well, I, I'm gonna tell you if, if that's the room, and I'm, I'm giving gross generalizations now about the culture in that room and the demeanor and the energy in that room. I'm gonna tell you to go have the meeting before the meeting. In the big room.

[00:25:27] Anne Morriss:
Mm. Nice.

[00:25:27] Carla Harris:
Right now I'm gonna tell you, you know, to, to use your data about the room. I'm gonna tell you go have a conversation with Tom. I'm gonna tell you go have a conversation with Ted, and I'm gonna go tell to have a conversation with Terry beforehand and say, “Lemme tell you why Manish is all that and a bag of chips. And you know, as well as I do, I'm gonna need some help. Can I count on you?”

[00:25:46] Frances Frei:
And that's not cheating?

[00:25:46] Carla Harris:
Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope, nope.

[00:25:52] Anne Morriss:
Because this is how humans, this is how humans influence and are influenced by each other.

[00:25:56] Carla Harris:
That’s exactly right.

[00:25:57] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And sometimes it's in the big moment and sometimes it's in the conversation.

[00:25:59] Carla Harris:
And let me, let me give you a little bit of, uh, of another pearl from Strategize to Win. That is, if you are introducing a revolutionary idea, and it sounds like getting somebody like Manish is, is—

[00:26:12] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Revolution.

[00:26:13] Anne Morriss:
Sometimes that's revolutionary. Yeah.

[00:26:15] Carla Harris:
Right. If you are introducing a revolutionary idea, you must educate and sell because there are very few organizations where, you know, there's, there's an abundance of original thought.

Let's be honest. Okay? So if this is new, you gotta go in and educate and sell. And if it's an evolutionary idea where this is the next step, then you can just connect the capital to that which is already being done. So if it's revolutionary, you gotta educate and sell. You gotta educate outside the room 'cause you don't have enough time in the big room to educate.

[00:26:46] Frances Frei:
You just flipped the light bulb. You just turned it on for me. You just turned it on.

[00:26:48] Carla Harris:
There you go. You go educate and sell. 'Cause there has to be a why that you're doing something new. And then you go in the room and you present. And now Ted—

[00:26:59] Anne Morriss:
Love it.

[00:26:59] Carla Harris:
And Tom and Terry will be your Amen corner. And if they don't, you call 'em on it. And you said, “Terry, like when we were having this conversation before, one of the points you made that I thought was very provocative is…” blah. So now you out Terry in the room. Come on Terry. Don't back up on me now.

[00:27:15] Anne Morriss:
So good. It's so good. Carla, what is, um, just for the absence of doubt here, um, what's in it for the sponsors?

[00:27:24] Carla Harris:
Yes. I'll tell you just, just to be literal about it. The sponsor actually becomes more powerful. Right? Because now there's another person in the organization that you have made, if I can put it in those terms. The other thing is you won't always be in a position of power as the sponsor, but you may choose to stay on the playing field.

Over time, the person that you are sponsoring now becomes the decision maker about who gets to stay on the field.

[00:27:51] Anne Morriss:
Oh yeah.

[00:27:51] Carla Harris:
So it may very well come back to benefit you because you're no longer in that seat. You no longer have the title, but somebody decides that you get to stay around a little while longer because of what you have done over time and what you did specifically for them.

[00:28:07] Anne Morriss:
Amazing.

[00:28:07] Frances Frei:
Mic drop.

[00:28:11] Anne Morriss:
Carla, this has been such a privilege. We're so excited to share your wisdom with our community and, and give 'em a chance to spend some time in Carla's world, which is, which is a magical place.

[00:28:23] Carla Harris:
Thank you. I'll just say thank you for having me on the podcast. I love, love, love the idea. So thank you.

[00:28:28] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Bye.

I’ve been in the presence of greatness.

[00:28:44] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, she's amazing.

[00:28:46] Frances Frei:
And I could have used all of this a long time ago.

[00:28:49] Anne Morriss:
I love that we were able to workshop some problems with the great Carla Harris.

[00:28:56] Frances Frei:
I, I’m struck by, had I known this formality, I could have been better. So I have been helpful to people, but I could have been so much more helpful and sometimes I've been helpful, but felt skittish and maybe held back a little bit because of that skittishness.

[00:29:14] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:29:15] Frances Frei:
And now I realize, oh my gosh, I should have gone all the way with it.

[00:29:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:29:19] Frances Frei:
So this is really useful. Um, really useful to me and in particular, that in the formal sponsorships, I really believe that that's how we level the playing field.

[00:29:32] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:29:32] Frances Frei:
Um, uh, by just making sure everybody has someone who's making the positive case that you lean into and doing the work to find out where the gap is so that we can help put you in a position. And that's also not a dirty thing. It's an honest thing.

[00:29:51] Anne Morriss:
Right. What I like about it is it, to me, it feels like an honest and respectful acknowledgement of how—

[00:29:58] Frances Frei:
Humans work.

[00:29:58] Anne Morriss:
How humans work, how human networks are actually built, how humans influence each other, like where and how that influence happens. You know, I think without it, we end up in this fantasy of meritocracy 'cause we've made the investments along the way, but this final moment of being able to make the case for each other when it counts is, uh, we can be quite intentional about, and it can make all the difference.

[00:30:24] Frances Frei:
I'll tell you one other thing that really struck me is, is your team pushing for you? So I look at when Sam Altman on that whole OpenAI debacle and when he was gonna leave the company and there were 750 people, and 750 people said they're leaving too.

[00:30:41] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Super powerful.

[00:30:43] Frances Frei:
By, by Carla Harris’s measure, 10 out of 10.

[00:30:45] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:30:47] Frances Frei:
Oh, uh, are people pulling for you? And I am…

[00:30:51] Anne Morriss:
I think that was a really powerful moment because the fact that the employees were rooting for him, and by, by Carla's measure, it's also a really powerful indicator to the rest of the humans on the sidelines that this is a guy worth rooting for. Yeah.

[00:31:06] Frances Frei:
Oh, I learned so much and it's, it's all very humbling. It's all very humbling.

[00:31:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Humbling, inspiring, illuminating.

[00:31:16] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:31:16] Anne Morriss:
It’s, uh, it, it was all of it. What a, what a pleasure.

[00:31:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Thanks for listening, everyone. We wanna hear from you. If you wanna figure out a workplace problem together, send us a message, email fixable@ted.com or call us 234-FIXABLE. That’s 234-439-2253.

[00:31:37] Anne Morriss:
Another beautiful way to make a psychic connection is to leave us a review. We read every single word. Uh, so reach out, uh, on any of these platforms and review the podcast.

[00:31:49] Frances Frei:
Yeah, and, and you can review it with stars and words. Uh, even the stars help.

[00:31:54] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:31:54] Frances Frei:
Uh, even if you're, if you don't feel wordy, um, and it helps the algorithm present this to more people. So we're really grateful for your taking the time to leave a review.

[00:32:16] Anne Morriss:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

[00:32:21] Frances Frei:
And me Frances Frei.

[00:32:22] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hai Lash.

[00:32:33] Frances Frei:
This episode was mixed by Louis at Story Yard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.