Think faster and talk smarter (w/ Matt Abrahams) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Frances Frei:
Hey Anne.

[00:00:01] Anne Morriss:
Hello Frances.

[00:00:03] Frances Frei:
I am super excited about today’s episode. We’re going to be talking about communication, and in particular: how to do it well on the spot.

[00:00:09] Anne Morriss:
Which is not easy for all of us.

[00:00:11] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh. It’s not easy for all of us. Although you and I, I think, represent opposite ends of that continuum.

[00:00:18] Anne Morriss:
I, I think that’s fair. How, how would you describe the continuum?

[00:00:22] Frances Frei:
Uh, well I prefer on the spot. Not only am I deeply comfortable, it’s, I prefer it. Um… And then I would go all the way over to your end where you’ll do it if you have to, but you’re a very reluctant on the spotter.

[00:00:38] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I just want some advance notice, which is not too much to ask.

[00:00:42] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:00:43] Anne Morriss:
So well let me ask you this, Frances. What, why do you think this is such a comfortable place for you?

[00:00:49] Frances Frei:
Oh because my first draft is my best draft.

[laughter][00:00:53] Frances Frei:
It’s no, it’s just, let’s, and there’s no pressure for, like, multiple drafts if I’m preparing it. It’s not gonna get any better than the first one.

[00:01:01] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:01:02] Frances Frei:
And it’s so deeply liberating to me.

[00:01:03] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I do get stuck on how much better, uh, uh, I could be with, with a couple swings because that’s what happens in writing.

[00:01:11] Frances Frei:
Oh yeah. Yeah. And I can’t be any better than this, so that’s where it is here.

[00:01:15] Anne Morriss:
Alright well I’m excited to continue this conversation with our guest today, and our goal is going to be to take everyone from an Anne starting place to a Frances end point.

I’m Anne Morriss. I’m a company builder and a leadership coach.

[00:01:35] Frances Frei:
And I’m Frances Frei. I’m a Harvard Business School professor, and I’m Anne’s wife!

[00:01:39] Anne Morriss:
And this is Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. On this show we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and good solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[00:01:51] Frances Frei:
And who are we having that brave conversation with today, Anne?

[00:01:54] Anne Morriss:
So, Frances, today we’re having our second ever Master Fixer. So if you remember a few months ago, we hosted Claire Hughes Johnson on the show to talk about how to fix meetings.

[00:02:04] Frances Frei:
Oh my goodness. I loved that show. Definitely go back in the feed folks if you’ve missed it.

[00:02:08] Anne Morriss:
Definitely do that, and then, uh, hang in there with us today because today we get to talk about THE expert on effective off-the-cuff communications, and that is Matt Abrahams.

[00:02:19] Frances Frei:
Oh I’m so excited. I’ve been a fan from afar, uh, and then I got to get closer with Matt during pandemic because we met on Clubhouse.

[00:02:28] Anne Morriss:
Aw. All things lead back to Clubhouse for you.

[00:02:30] Frances Frei:
And everybody in academia knows about the work he does because it’s these really beautiful insights on how to successfully communicate and he makes them so practical and so accessible. Um… So I have wanted to have Matt on forever, and I’m so glad he could fit us in.

[00:02:47] Anne Morriss:
He is a professor of organizational behavior at Stanford Business School. He’s the author of several books focused on the psychology of communication and how to, quote, “Think Fast and Talk Smart”, which is what he calls his podcast and I believe is the name of his latest book.

[00:03:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah, Think Faster Talk Smarter is the…So he really added the “-er”

[00:03:06] Anne Morriss:
Even more ambitious! I love it.

[00:03:08] Frances Frei:
And I just had a chance to be on that podcast. It was wonderful, and I encourage folks to give it a listen.

[00:03:13] Anne Morriss:
That’s right. So today we want to talk to Matt about his research on communication and get all of his best insight into how to communicate confidently so that others will listen. Especially in those moments when you haven’t prepared a single line. And my heart rate is already starting to increase.

[00:03:29] Frances Frei:
And so you can think about this as like when you’re put on the spot in meetings, if you’re answering questions during a Q&A. Uh, even when you’re having, you know, a conversation at a networking event. Anything where you couldn’t possibly have planned. It turns out there’s skill involved in doing it better. And so all of that stuff that’s high stakes, difficult to prepare for… Matt is a Master Fixer.

[BREAK]

[00:04:07] Anne Morriss:
So Matt Abrahams, welcome to Fixable.

[00:04:10] Matt Abrahams:
I am so excited to be with you, Anne and Frances. This is great.

[00:04:15] Anne Morriss:
It's very mutual. Uh, my wife has been excited all day.

[00:04:21] Frances Frei:
I talk about you a lot, Matt.

[00:04:23] Matt Abrahams:
Well, thank you.

[00:04:23] Anne Morriss:
Oh yeah. And it’s, and it’s infectious. So, Matt, you have been chasing and fixing a nearly universal problem for much of your career, which is to help people communicate better, more fluently, less anxiously, in the moments that matter most. In your new book Think Faster, Talk Smarter, you seem to be focusing on unplanned or spontaneous communication. So those times when we're put on the spot and need to deliver. Is this an accurate characterization of your mission in the world?

[00:04:57] Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely, it is. You're now part of my public relations team. You did that. You did that very well. Yes. I am, I am passionate about communication, and I have turned my focus now to what I call spontaneous speaking, that in the moment communication: answering questions, giving feedback, making small talk. It's critical to both our business and personal success.

[00:05:18] Anne Morriss:
It seems like you're on a a mission to reduce what the French call stairway regret. Uh, I’m not gonna attempt the more beautiful French version of this. But the experience of thinking of the perfect thing to say, but too late. So James Joyce called it afterwit—

[00:05:36] Frances Frei:
Ah.

[00:05:36] Anne Morriss:
Which is a, an old English word that I think we need to resuscitate.

[00:05:39] Matt Abrahams:
I love that.

[00:05:40] Frances Frei:
Oh. We do need to resuscitate that. I have a lot of after wit.

[00:05:44] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, yeah. I am plagued by afterwit, so I'm hoping by the end of this call I'm gonna feel a little bit less pain. Is that a guarantee you're willing to make?

[00:05:56] Matt Abrahams:
Uh, I am willing to say that we will talk about tools that will help. How is that?

[00:06:01] Anne Morriss:
Alright. Perfect. And you—

[00:06:02] Matt Abrahams:
Undersell, Anne. It's all about set expectations low and then achieve greatness, so…

[00:06:10] Anne Morriss:
Oh, Matt, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be learning a lot from you. I can already tell. Matt, you have two people with very different relationships with communication on this call. Frances, I, I think you feel less anxious with the spotlight on you.

[00:06:21] Frances Frei:
I prefer it. I'm finally awake.

[00:06:24] Anne Morriss:
When I have to, when I have to get her to do something, Matt, I just turn on a camera.

[00:06:27] Frances Frei:
Turn on a camera.

[00:06:28] Anne Morriss:
She relaxes.

[00:06:30] Matt Abrahams:
I love this insight. This is fascinating. And I want to hear more.

[00:06:35] Anne Morriss:
And I have had to wrestle with this communication demon more in my career. I think my comfort zone is probably writing and one on one communication where I have total control over language and my emotional frequency.

When I was pitching investors in your neighborhood, Matt, I was actually quite terrible at it in the beginning. Plagued by after wit, and so I guess one thing that would have helped me then that I'm gonna ask you now is what, what does good look like here? Is it the absence of feeling anxious and self distracted or is it something that's happening in the audience? Like, how do I know when I'm getting good at this or at, at minimum making progress?

[00:07:24] Matt Abrahams:
To me, good is all about what the audience experiences. Does the audience get the information they need to be successful with whatever your goal was? That, to me, is the key to successful communication. We are in service of our audience. Now, we tend to get in our own way and think it's about us, but it's really about them. The latter part of your question was: how, how do I know when I feel good or bad? And it comes from practice. It comes from lowering the expectation that you have for yourself. We strive for perfection in our communication. We want to do it right. And there is no right way.

[00:08:05] Anne Morriss:
I have no idea what you’re talking about.

[00:08:07] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah, it’s, uh…

[00:08:08] Frances Frei:
I was gonna say, I figured out what, I don't have any perfectionist tendencies in terms of communication I’ve seen.

[00:08:13] Anne Morriss:
It is one of your superpowers.

[00:08:15] Frances Frei:
I think it is.

[00:08:15] Matt Abrahams:
I think in the two of you, we're seeing this challenge in, in almost a before and an after, if you will, where a lot of us strive for perfection to get it right. And in so doing, we put so much pressure on ourselves that we end up not doing it as well as possible. And it boils down to cognitive bandwidth. In many ways, your brain is like a computer. And if your, your laptop or your phone has lots of apps and windows open, it performs less well And if I'm constantly speaking, judging, and evaluating everything I'm saying, I am burdening that bandwidth, and I can't do as well as I could.

And it sounds like Frances has gotten to a point where it's not about getting it right. It's about getting it done. And for those who are still putting a lot of pressure on themselves, my suggestion is let's find ways to dial that down. The key to success is to be audience focused and to give yourself permission just to get the communication done. And in so doing. you more than likely will do it very well.

[00:08:15] Anne Morriss:
That’s so interesting. You know, one of the things that Frances and I will say to each other before we, uh, perform together, and this, we, we stole this from improv, in the world of improv, which, where I know you have spent some time playing and, and thinking about this, these really interesting questions, but it is the phrase, “Everything you do is exactly right.”

So it's, it's kind of the opposite way in, but it, it, it's, it's pushing on the same emotional lever, which is just, how do you, like, the, the doorway of liberation for some may be, like, swing for mediocrity.

[00:09:54] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:09:54] Anne Morriss:
And, and the others, uh, which is, I think what has been helpful for us is just, uh, assume everything is going to go perfectly well. Get over your attachment to the outcome and just start.

[00:10:07] Matt Abrahams:
I love that idea of getting, being present, and it's not about the outcome, it's about the moment. And, and in so doing, you allow for connection. So it, it's, it's about connection, not perfection. And that, and any way you come to it. I think is the right way.

[00:10:22] Frances Frei:
I love that. I love that. It's about connection, not perfection.

[00:10:25] Anne Morriss:
So I imagine in your career, you have taken so many humans at different points in their careers, from MBA students to seasoned professionals on this ride to becoming more confident, more fluent in high stakes communication. We're gonna get into the mechanics of how a little bit later, but what's the payoff, in your experience, for getting better at this?

[00:10:48] Matt Abrahams:
I think there are many, but, but by far the most important is that you are able to connect and effectively transact information with people such that others are benefiting from your experience, your wisdom, the advice and guidance that you give. You know, part of the work I do in my consulting practice is go into organizations and help them build what I call a communication infrastructure.

And that's not the technology. Tools are important, but it's really about the people and processes to invite an environment that creates and sustains and supports this type of communication. And I know in the work you do, especially in your new book, you talk a lot about communication, but it's all predicated on having processes that support that communication within organizations.

[00:11:34] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:11:34] Matt Abrahams:
Everybody says it takes so much time to communicate well—

[00:11:36] Frances Frei:
Oh, not even.

[00:11:36] Matt Abrahams:
And I say it takes a lot longer to clean the mess up when you don't.

[00:11:40] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, to not communicate well.

[00:11:40] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:11:41] Anne Morriss:
That can take years.

[00:11:42] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So, Matt, when you go into an organization, out of, out of curiosity, what's the first thing you do? Like, when we go into an organization, we almost always begin with an interactive lecture on trust and inclusion, because that's like level setting. What's your level setting when you go into an organization?

[00:12:00] Matt Abrahams:
I go in and I listen. I, I let a lot of people explain to me what, where they see themselves being successful in their communication, both as individuals and as or—components of an organization, departments, divisions, et cetera. And I, I let them explain where they think it's working and then where it's not working.

And what I'm looking for are the bottlenecks or the telltale signs of where we're getting into challenges with communication. I'll give you an example. I went into an organization recently where they shared with me that the number of meetings they were having was increasing and the number of people they were having in those meetings was increasing.

[00:12:33] Frances Frei:
Yikes, yikes.

[00:12:33] Matt Abrahams:
And whenever I hear meeting creep, and right, it immediately says, “Okay, we've got a problem.” Because meetings are often used as, as band aids for much larger structural and communication issues. So I'm looking for where are those signs that the problems exist and then what's causing those problem. So I do a lot of listening first.

[00:12:54] Anne Morriss:
Hmm. I love that. That's not intuitive.

[00:12:56] Frances Frei:
No.

[00:12:57] Matt Abrahams:
Well, thank you.

[00:12:58] Anne Morriss:
Alright. Matt, so this is not a hypothetical, imagine that I am willing to go on this ride with you now and become a better off the cuff speaker. I know you have, like, a beautiful step by step process, but can you give us the, the abridged version?

[00:13:14] Matt Abrahams:
Certainly. So the, the book and, and my experience in the last almost decade working on this is really divided into six steps. Those six steps can be divided further into mindset and messaging. When it comes to mindset, it's really about first managing anxiety. As we started with, most people are anxious in communication, period, but especially when it's spontaneous in nature.

So we have to learn to manage the anxiety. After that, we have to address the perfection versus connection issue. We've talked about that. We then have to change our mindset to be one of embracing of these circumstances. Many of us, when we're put in, on the spot in spontaneous situations, get very defensive. We feel threatened.

You know, even if I were just to tell both of you that at the end of this, there's going to be a Q& A, you might say, “Oh my goodness, that's, that's nerve wracking for me.” And we get defensive. I would argue that these opportunities for collaboration, for connection, for learning more. And if you see that mindset shift, it makes it a bit easier.

And then finally, as we just talked about listening, listening is the last step in the mindset process. You really have to listen well to the nuance of what's going on in the moment to respond appropriately when you're on the spot. And then the last two steps have to do with messaging. I’m a huge fan of frameworks. I believe frameworks are critical.

And structure is critical to our communication. And once we have good structure, we then have to work on what I call the F-word of communication. And it's not that naughty one. It's focus. Many of us ramble, especially when we're spontaneous. My mother has this wonderful saying that I know she didn't create, but it's, “Tell me the time. Don't build me the clock.” And many of us, as we are spontaneously speaking—

[00:14:59] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:14:59] Matt Abrahams:
Become clock builders.

[00:15:01] Anne Morriss:
Preach.

[00:15:01] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah. Instead of being concise. So that in a nutshell is the, is the six steps. I'm happy to dive deeper into any of them, but with practice, with intent, with reflection, those steps can help everybody feel more comfortable and confident in the moment.

[00:15:15] Frances Frei:
On the watch and the clock thing, at, at HBS, 50 percent of every grade is class participation. And 10 percent of every class fails. So what it does is it simulates a high stakes environment, even though it's, you know, a beautiful laboratory, but it's, it simulates it effectively enough that people have… They’re moved to anxiety, like it's, so it's a good laboratory for what you're talking about. When I grade class participation, I grade it as quality per unit time spoken.

[00:15:44]Matt Abrahams:
I love that. Yes. This whole methodology came about, uh, because you and I both teach at, at business schools. As a result of the deans of Stanford's business school coming to me and saying, “Our students have a fundamental problem. They can't respond well to cold calls. They're, they're freezing. They're choking. Even though, as you well know, our students are very bright.” They know the answer. They just can't do it. So they came to me and said, “Can you help come up with a way to help empower our students in that cold call moment to respond well?”

[00:16:14] Frances Frei:
I love it. I love it.

[00:16:15] Matt Abrahams:
And that's, that was the origin of all of this about eight or 10 years ago.

[00:16:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:16:20] Anne Morriss:
Matt, I want to pull on that anxiety thread because I, I feel like I am back in the MBA classroom. My heart is racing. Um, I don't love the word anxiety in 2023—

[00:16:34] Matt Abrahams:
Yes.

[00:16:34] Anne Morriss:
—because it's been so pathologized. I actually really loved Tracy Dennis Tiwary’s book, Future Tense. Um… She describes anxiety as the in it to win it emotion.

[00:16:47] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:16:47] Frances Frei:
I like that. I’m in it to win it.

[00:16:48] Anne Morriss:
Which I'm always telling one of our kids that.

[00:16:51] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:16:52] Anne Morriss:
And I think your message is consistent, which is not to fight it, but to make peace with anxiety.

[00:16:58] Matt Abrahams:
Yes.

[00:16:58] Anne Morriss:
On this ride and, and not think of it as an enemy that needs to be vanquished here. I want to give you a chance to talk about your origin story a little bit because I know it, it did start with an experience of anxiety as a young speaker and I, I, I, I'm gonna share my own story but I'm gonna let you, you know, warm me up a little bit, Matt, with some, with some vulnerability.

[00:17:20] Matt Abrahams:
Oh, thank you. Well, we can compare whose story is worse.

[00:17:22] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:17:22] Matt Abrahams:
So, first, I agree. Anxiety is a loaded term. Uh, I actually like to talk a lot about confidence and confidence building, but I do believe that anxiety is inherent to being human, especially when it comes to being in front of others and communicating.

[00:17:39] Anne Morriss:
Huge evolutionary advantage, people.

[00:17:40] Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely.

[00:17:40] Anne Morriss:
It’s an indicator that we should react. Yes. The stakes are high. Let's go. Let's get moving.

[00:17:44] Matt Abrahams:
You bet. Have I distracted you enough from my, my anxiety story or you still want to hear it?

[00:17:48] Anne Morriss:
No, no. I’m, I’m, I’m riveted. Yeah.

[00:17:50] Matt Abrahams:
I was trying. So. So, as a 14 year old boy, uh, in freshman year of high school, first person asked, because with the last name Abrahams, I always went first, because we were always alphabetical.

[00:18:01] Frances Frei:
Oh yes of course.

[00:18:01] Matt Abrahams:
That very rarely has anybody ever come before me.

[00:18:04] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:18:04] Matt Abrahams:
Um, so, as a 14 year old boy, first day, freshman class English, we all had to stand up and, and say what we did that summer. We've probably been all through that activity at some point in school. At the end of that, my English teacher, Mr. Meredith, comes up to me and says, “You're good at this talking thing. You need to go to this speech tournament this Saturday.”

Every English teacher, I think, had to send a student, and I was his student. And he, the only advice he gave me is talk about something you're interested in. So I, I prepared a ten minute speech on the martial arts, something I was interested in then, I'm still interested in now.

So I show up 7:30 a. m. on a Saturday morning. It's still dark out. I walk into this big room There are parents of my friends who are judging this thing. My friends are in the room, and the girl I like is in the room. High stakes. I'm in my shirt and pants that are way too tight because I had grown over the summer My dad had to tie my tie you get the picture, right?

I was so nervous about this event, I forgot to put on my special karate pants. If you know anything about the martial arts, the pants have a little extra room because you're kicking and moving around. I started my 10 minute speech with a karate kick.

[00:19:15] Frances Frei:
Oh. Oh no.

[00:19:15] Anne Morriss:
No!

[00:19:15] Matt Abrahams:
I ripped my pants from zipper to belt buckle in the first 10 seconds of a 10 minute speech. My… At that moment, and from that moment, I have been interested in the impact of anxiety on communication, and it all boils back to that cold Saturday morning as a 14 year old.

[00:19:36] Anne Morriss:
Ugh.

[00:19:36] Frances Frei:
Oh! You have, uh, you have affected the whole climate over here in our home. Like, we feel this, oh my goodness.

[00:19:43] Anne Morriss:
And we have boys in this age range, so this, it's particularly poignant.

[00:19:48] Frances Frei:
Oh yeah, yeah.

[00:19:48] Matt Abrahams:
It was, it was an experience, and I'll tell you though, what I am most proud of from that experience, and it took me many years—

[00:19:53] Frances Frei:
Is that you stayed on the stage.

[00:19:55] Matt Abrahams:
I stayed on the stage. I finished.

[00:19:58] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:19:58] Matt Abrahams:
And rather than letting that defeat me, I actually got really curious and, and ended up not only doing that speech again, but really looking into anxiety's impact, uh, on me.

[00:20:09] Frances Frei:
That’s amazing.

[00:20:10] Anne Morriss:
Amazing.

[00:20:11] Matt Abrahams:
So, Anne, I want to hear your story now.

[00:20:12] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So do I.

[00:20:14] Anne Morriss:
Well, yeah, we're going to bridge, we're going to bride, we’re going to bridge to it because my next question was around this recovery moment, which I think is it, is the really extraordinary part of the story, that you didn't run off the stage.

[00:20:24] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:20:25] Anne Morriss:
Um, but in those moments when we're starting to feel, like, the telltale signs of anxiety, so shortness of breath and racing heart. And I can tell you my, my big fear is, is blanking out—

[00:20:40] Matt Abrahams:
Yes.

[00:20:41] Anne Morriss:
Because I have, I have done that multiple times in my life. And I did it once on the stage. I think I was maybe 16. I was singing.

[00:20:49] Matt Abrahams:
Oh.

[00:20:50] Anne Morriss:
I was singing Gilbert and Sullivan, Pirates of Penzance. I had made it through the first stanza, and I had no idea what the next stanza was.

[00:20:59] Frances Frei:
Wow. What did you do?

[00:20:59] Anne Morriss:
And I just, I, I can still conjure this memory, like viscerally.

[00:21:04] Matt Abrahams:
Yes.

[00:21:04] Anne Morriss:
And I just hear the director on the piano. She thought I, I couldn't hit the note, as if.

[00:21:10] Matt Abrahams:
Right.

[00:21:10] Anne Morriss:
Right? As if. I understood my instrument so well that I was just seeking the note.

[00:21:16] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:21:16] Anne Morriss:
Um… And so I just, every time I thought I maybe had it, I just, that, that little piano key started to ding. So I, I sang the first line again.

[00:21:26] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah. That’s—

[00:21:28] Frances Frei:
Oh, nice.

[00:21:29] Matt Abrahams:
That's wonderful. So—
[00:21:30] Anne Morriss:
Give me a grade, Matt, on my recovery.

[00:21:32] Matt Abrahams:
So, so, that, that, that's actually one of the bits of advice I give. Not to sing Gilbert and Sullivan, but to, to, to repeat yourself. And I have to tell you, what's so funny that you brought that up is I have often said when somebody has, like, this hard thing to discuss or talk about hard because they've got a lot of words or it's very complex, I'll say at least it's not singing The Modern Major General from Gilbert and S—I will use that. So the fact that that, that’s, that's amazing. Um…

[00:21:56] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:21:57] Matt Abrahams:
So the fear of blanking out is the number one fear that people report to me when they say, “Oh, you, you, you study anxiety and communication. What do I do if I blank out or…?” And, and so can I give my answer? Because you did part of it?

[00:22:07] Frances Frei:
Hell yes.

[00:22:08] Anne Morriss:
Oh, yes, yes. It's my biggest fear, and it has happened multiple times.

[00:22:12] Matt Abrahams:
Right. So, so, first and foremost, structure is key. And remember, structure is an important part in the methodology.

[00:22:18] Anne Morriss:
Right, a framework.

[00:22:19] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah? Structure gives you a roadmap. Structure is a logical connection of ideas, like problem solution benefit. When you were pitching on Sand Hill Road, you probably used problem solution benefit. Here's this problem. Our, our service, our offering, our product, service, that problem. That's the solution, and then here's the benefit if, if people deploy it. That’s a structure.

[00:22:38] Anne Morriss:
I think I was a little vague on the solution part, which maybe... what got in the way.

[00:22:40] Matt Abrahams:
Yes. Well, my hunch is you got better, Anne, at pitching your business by leaning into structure.

[00:22:47] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:22:47] Matt Abrahams:
I, I, it's what, it's what makes a big difference.

[00:22:50] Anne Morriss:
For sure.

[00:22:50] Matt Abrahams:
The piece about not being worthy or the right person, a lot of us have that. You call it imposter syndrome, call that lack of confidence, whatever. The single best way I know to rectify that is to remind yourself that whenever you're communicating, you're in service of the audience you're communicating to. It's not about you, it's about them.

[00:23:08] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:23:08] Matt Abrahams:
And what you can do for them. And that mind shift really makes a difference. Getting back to blanking out, the best thing to prevent yourself from doing it is to have a structure that you know. It doesn't mean you've mem-memorized word for word. In fact, that works against you.

But having a road map, it’s hard to get lost if you have a map. So if I'm presenting, and I blank out, and I go, “Well, I just covered problem, I know solution always follows problem.” That helps me get back on track. If that does not work, you do exactly what you did as a 16 year old. You repeat yourself, just like when you lose your keys or your phone, you retrace your steps; that will often get you back on track.

[00:23:44] Frances Frei:
Wow.

[00:23:44] Matt Abrahams:
If that does not work, the final ripcord on that parachute is to distract your audience long enough to get yourself on track. And when I say distract, I mean ask them a question. You, you know, you both have taught. There are times when you teach where you forget something. Or you're like, "Did I say this already?”

And you just need a moment to collect your thoughts. If you are ever a student of mine and you hear me say the following, “Let's pause for a moment and think about how what we've just discussed applies to your life, or applies to what's coming next,” your students will think, and my students think, “Oh yeah, how does this apply?”

They don't think Matt blanked out. And in that moment, while they're thinking, I recollect my thoughts. And I believe everybody can have one of these back pocket questions. It can be very generic. Think about how what we just have talked about and how it will impact what comes next. Very generic question, but it sounds purposeful, it has meaning, and it buys you time.

So, there are ways to recover from blanking out. And, amazingly, by knowing these ways, you actually are less likely to blank out.

[00:24:46] Frances Frei:
Because you have the safety net, right? I love that. This works so well for me. I just need to have something that makes me realize that it’s all going to be okay. Something that I can rely on. Um… So Matt, I gave my first in the wild talk since the pandemic. So three years of Zoom only.

[00:25:06] Matt Abrahams:
Oh my.

[00:25:06] Frances Frei:
And I go out into the wild, the airplane, the whole, the whole thing. And I get up onto the stage. And it's a big, beautiful theater, thousands of people in the audience. And I'm most comfortable when I'm up on the stage, and they set the countdown clock for 45 minutes, the classic time for a keynote.
And I give my keynote and I think I did a really good job. And then I look over at the countdown clock and it has 25 minutes remaining.

[00:25:35] Matt Abrahams:
Oh, my.

[00:25:35] Anne Morriss:
Oh my god. I’m… I'm sweating. This is my nightmare.

[00:25:38] Frances Frei:
So I hadn't accounted for the fact that there'd be no interaction. Like there always is on Zoom.

[00:25:44] Matt Abrahams:
Right.

[00:25:44] Frances Frei:
I now had to have your safety net. I had to have filler for 25 minutes and it had to have the appearance of purposeful. And so I think that's taking your safety net and making a whole thing about it.

[00:25:58] Matt Abrahams:
Yeah.

[00:25:58] Anne Morriss:
But essentially you, you were, you were directionally following Matt's advice where you said, “Okay, let's talk about you now. Let's figure out how this applies.”

[00:26:05] Frances Frei:
Oh, I totally did. I did exactly what you just said. So if we're wondering how well does that work, even for more than half of a keynote in front of thousands, it works.

[00:26:15] Matt Abrahams:
Wow.

[00:26:15] Frances Frei:
That’s what I say.

[00:26:16] Matt Abrahams:
So you didn't have to break into Gilbert and Sullivan. So that's good.

[00:26:19] Frances Frei:
No. No. To everyone’s delight.

[00:26:22] Anne Morriss:
I, I, I feel like you are still metabolizing that looking at the clock, and there are 25 minutes left.

[00:26:26] Frances Frei:
Oh, I will be metabolizing that. Well, for at least as long as Mr. Pantsplitter metabolized.

[00:26:33] Anne Morriss:
I think it's earned that level.

[00:26:36] Matt Abrahams:
Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:26:38] Anne Morriss:
Um, so Matt, my next question is really a, a PSA to my wife. So, Matt—

[00:26:43] Frances Frei:
Oh, this is really what Fixable is. It's, it's, it's, I'm Fixable, Matt.

[00:26:48] Matt Abrahams:
Oh.

[00:26:49] Anne Morriss:
And it's with Anne.

[00:26:50] Matt Abrahams:
I see.

[00:26:50] Frances Frei:
And I'm just poor Frances.

[00:26:50] Anne Morriss:
And we just, we just took our swings.

[00:26:52] Matt Abrahams:
I didn't know I'd be witnessing couples therapy. This is great.

[00:26:54] Frances Frei:
It is. It's, you know, it's couples therapy, but it's really unidirectional.

[00:27:00] Matt Abrahams:
Alright, that's why I'm here, to remind everybody that communication works best when it's both ways. I see.

[00:27:05] Frances Frei:
It’s not clear that’s true. It's not clear that's true in this particular….

[00:27:08] Anne Morriss:
[unintelligible] So Matt.

[00:27:09] Matt Abrahams:
Yes.

[00:27:10] Anne Morriss:
For not so spontaneous communication, uh, when the stakes are high, we know we're going to be in the spotlight, tell us about the value and payoff of preparation.

[00:27:26] Matt Abrahams:
Ha. The big counterintuitive part of my new book is that preparation is critical to spontaneous speaking and speaking well, and preparation is important in all communication. Some people have different levels of preparation, but certainly, at the very least, we should be thinking about our audience, their needs, in terms of their knowledge, their areas of resistance, their attitudes. We need to be thinking about our overarching goal.

To me, a goal has three parts. Information, emotion, and action. What do you want them to know, feel, and do? And then we should think about what are some key ideas we want to get across. Again, not memorizing. But stockpiling information that we can then pull into a structure in the moment is critical. So, it is important to prepare. Everybody prepares differently and in, to different, different depths and breadths. But it is important.

[00:28:17] Anne Morriss:
So you must get calls day and night from family and friends before the big presentation. What, what's the advice that you find yourself giving most of them?

[00:28:26] Matt Abrahams:
Uh, not to call me the day before, you should call me the week before. Uh, you—

[00:28:30] Frances Frei:
Oh, see, this is now, you've just given Anne—

[00:28:32] Anne Morriss:
It’s so, so interesting.

[00:28:33] Matt Abrahams:
No, no. So, so, there's a difference between the managing the anxiety and building confidence than necessarily preparing the content. Preparing content can help manage anxiety, but there are many other things that you can be doing. The moments before are not when you need to say, “Hey, how do I deal with this?”

All of my classes, regardless of where I teach, I always have my students create what I call an anxiety management plan, an amp. And I got that name, Frances, from our mutual friend, Alison, Alison Wood Brooks, who did some great research.

[00:29:02] Frances Frei:
Oh. Yeah. The great Alison Wood Brooks.

[00:29:04] Matt Abrahams:
Absolutely. Yeah. And she did some really fascinating research that if you reframe your anxiety as incitement, it actually has positive benefits in many ways. And so I like calling this an amp, where you can think about your anxiety as amping you up to do well rather than defeating you. But you need to do the work in advance. You don't do it moments before. So when I do get that call, what can I do tomorrow before I get on the stage? Three things I advise them.

First, work on your breathing. You should be breathing deeply right now as you think about it and feel that anxiety and right before you start. And by deep breathing, I mean lower abdomen, deep yoga type breathing. And your exhale needs to be twice as long as your inhale, because it's on the exhale that the relaxation response really kicks in.

Second, I invite everybody to come up with some kind of positive affirmation or mantra that you can say to yourself in that moment before you start speaking when all that negative self talk starts. Like, why didn't I prepare more? How come I'm the person doing this, not that other person? What could I have done better? Say this positive mantra. And it doesn't have to be amazing. It could simply be-being, mine is, “I have value to bring.” That's what I say to myself right before I start. Before we started this podcast, I said to myself, “I have value to bring.” That helps me get audience focused.

And then finally, the third thing is anything you can do to get yourself present oriented and be there for your audience. If you are in your head and you are ahead of what's happening, I'm worried about not achieving my goal, I'm worried about not making the 45 minutes, I'm worried, whatever. That’s taking you away from that moment and away from that connection. So that's the advice I give to people when I get the call eight hours before they're getting on stage.

[00:30:42] Anne Morriss:
The one I use is “There's someone in the audience who really needs to hear what I have to say, and I have no idea who that is.”

[00:30:50] Frances Frei:
Ah.

[00:30:50] Anne Morriss:
And it, so it forces me to also engage with everyone—

[00:30:56] Frances Frei:
Inclusive of everyone.

[00:30:56] Anne Morriss:
—and not overconfident and thinking like, “Oh. You know, this, this guy over here is not interested.”

[00:31:02] Frances Frei:
And he might be.

[00:31:03] Anne Morriss:
Um, and so it really, it really gets me out of my head.

[00:31:06] Frances Frei:
That’s beautiful.

[00:31:06] Matt Abrahams:
I hope you haven't copymarked or trademarked that because I want to use that. No copyright on that because I, I like that. It takes mine one step further.

[00:31:10] Anne Morriss:
No, no, I think I'm saying it out loud for the first time.

[00:31:14] Matt Abrahams:
I like it.

[00:31:15] Frances Frei:
Yeah. It’s really nice.

[00:31:16] Anne Morriss:
Matt, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you for indulging us with your time. Uh, in addition to your book, Think Faster, Talk Smarter, uh, where else can people find you and, and absorb your insight and wisdom?

[00:31:30] Matt Abrahams:
First, thank you both. This has been a true pleasure. Ah. People can find me, the podcast I host, Think Fast, Talk Smart. I'm not very creative with names, so the book is named after the podcast. Uh, you can find me at mattabrahams.com and I do a lot of work on LinkedIn as well. And so appreciate the opportunity to be with you and to get to know both of you a little better.

[00:32:01] Anne Morriss:
Well, that was fun.

[00:32:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And I will say I love Fixable because we solve people's problems. It's really nice to talk to someone who has solved lots of people's problems.

[00:32:10] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:32:11] Frances Frei:
Um, I learned so much.

[00:32:13] Anne Morriss:
I, I learned a lot from that conversation and I, I had an insight hearing Matt talk, which is the form of communication and art, I would argue, that has moved me the most is standup comedy. And I think part of it is how wired in you have to be not only with your broader audience, but the humans in front of you in order to be good at that.

[00:32:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:32:43] Anne Morriss:
You know, we get so distracted, and I have gotten so distracted by, oh my god, my heart's right, like, the, what's happening to me, but the, when I succeed, it's when I'm able to let that go. And the ultimate version of that is crowd work. And how present you have to be.

[00:33:01] Frances Frei:
Oh my goodness, yes.

[00:33:01] Anne Morriss:
How present you have to be.

[00:33:03] Frances Frei:
For the heckler.

[00:33:04] Anne Morriss:
For the heckler. Uh, and then the orientation, which Matt talks about, of, of, like, what is the gift that this person is offering me? Not what is this threat that has now, like, raised its hand in the audience.

[00:33:17] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:33:18] Anne Morriss:
So that's where I go when I am trying to find my mojo before, uh, an experience or event or talk. I will spend some time with Wanda Sykes and Sarah Silverman and um…

[00:33:32] Frances Frei:
My new favorite because I just came across her recently—Kathleen Madigan. Oh just, just makes me roar with laughter.

[00:33:41] Anne Morriss:
Yes, so I, it’s um, I was able to connect a lot of dots in that conversation.

[00:33:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah, I mean our definition of leadership is that leadership is about making others better, um, first as a result of your presence, but in a way that lasts into your absence and I was struck by how similar his definition of communication is with our definition of, of leadership.

[00:34:05] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And I, and there really is no leadership without communication. I mean, it is the currency that allows you to influence other people's thoughts and beliefs and behavior. So, I, it’s, it's not surprising, I guess.

[00:34:19] Frances Frei:
And I guess what I would say is my, the takeaway I have from it is that our communication challenges are fixable.

[00:34:27] Anne Morriss:
Yes, that's the headline. It's all fixable.

[00:34:29] Frances Frei:
It's all fixable.

Oh, thanks everybody. We would love to have you join us on Fixable. You can email us at fixable@ed.com. Or, call us at 234-FIXABLE. That's 234 349 2253. All communication is fixable, and we think that your challenges are too.

[00:35:09] Anne Morriss:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

[00:35:13] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei.

[00:35:15] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nic, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard.

[00:35:32] Frances Frei:
If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And tell a friend to check us out.

[00:35:38] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can, please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

[00:35:45] Frances Frei:
And it totally helps the search algorithm.