Reshma Saujani - "How can I get people to invest in my new project?" (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hi everyone. We're so excited to share another episode of Fixable with you today. This is gonna be a great one.

[00:00:08] Frances Frei:
Absolutely. But before we dive in, we have a bit of housekeeping. We're going on summer break, otherwise known as why I became an academic.

[00:00:18] Anne Morriss:
The whole reason to take the job. But don't worry, we'll be sharing some great episodes in the feed while we're gone so you can get a taste of some of the shows we think you're gonna love while we're away.

[00:00:30] Frances Frei:
And, we’ll be back in August with more episodes of Fixable.

[00:00:34] Anne Morriss:
When we return, we'll tackle everything from how to collaborate in a high-conflict environment, to how to set boundaries at work as a founder with Gina Gutierrez of the audio erotica company Dipsea, to how to keep robots from taking your job with the hilarious bestselling author, A.J. Jacobs.

[00:00:50] Frances Frei:
Spoiler alert, I'm not too worried about that last one.

[00:00:53] Anne Morriss:
I don’t know know if you should get comfortable, Frances.

[00:00:55] Frances Frei:
But yes, we will have all that and more.

[00:00:59] Anne Morriss:
We're so excited to bring you a whole slate of new problems and solutions. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss a single one. Now let's get into today's episode.

Welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:01:18] Frances Frei:
And I'm Francis Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:01:21] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just a single conversation away.

So our caller today is Reshma Saujani. She's the founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First, and she just gave a commencement speech at Smith College that has now gone viral.

[00:01:42] Frances Frei:
What caused it to go viral? What was it about?

[00:01:44] Anne Morriss:
Well, one of the themes, uh, that she went after was imposter syndrome. She was really challenging the idea that women are responsible for their experience of feeling like imposters in some situations. You have a framing on imposter syndrome that you sometimes offer people.

[00:02:03] Frances Frei:
Yeah, so the headline is that imposter syndrome is when there is a disconnect between objectively how awesome I am and subjectively how awesome I think I am, and imposter syndrome is when objectively I'm awesome, but subjectively I don't think I'm awesome.

And I'll just give you a teaser for how to overcome it, which is to just focus on how many people who are objectively not that awesome, but subjectively think they're awesome. That's the opposite of imposter syndrome, and that's not called, like, any catchy name as imposter syndrome. That's like the Dunning-Kruger effect or something so that nobody will go and double-click on it.

But I just, I find that as the first step to overcoming imposter syndrome, realize how many people are doing that.

[00:02:47] Anne Morriss:
That is a, that is a theme Reshma touches on in the, the course of this speech.

[00:02:51] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Oh good.

[00:02:53] Anne Morriss:
And by the way, we don't know much about Reshma's problem for today, except that it has something to do with the challenges of being a second-time founder.

[00:03:02] Frances Frei:
Oh, it can be so tough to start from scratch again.

[00:03:06] Anne Morriss:
Absolutely. I'll be curious to hear where Reshma is feeling that tension. And I'm also interested in what's underneath it if there isn't something else at the root of her frustration.

[BREAK]

[00:03:34] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable, Reshma. We're thrilled to have you.

[00:03:37] Reshma Saujani:
Thanks for having me.

[00:03:39] Anne Morriss:
What can we help you with today?

[00:03:40] Reshma Saujani:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, I mean I think the most pressing issue facing me right now is it's hard to be a second-time founder. I left Girls Who Code about two years ago ‘cause I was ready to pass the baton and I passed it to my dear friend who was our COO, Dr. Tarika Barrett. And my work of building a stable organization was done. I had built the organization and then had to rebuild it during COVID.

[00:04:03] Anne Morris:
Yeah.

[00:04:03] Reshma Saujani:
So like I had done it twice. Right?

[00:04:05] Anne Morriss:
Do you feel like you've made the handoff for Girls Who Code at the right time? Was it too late?

[00:04:10] Reshma Saujani:
I did. Uh, I did. No, it wasn't too late. It was exactly the right time. It was also because at that time I, I, it was starting to become clear to me that, like, I taught hundreds of thousands of girls, non-binary, trans kids, and they still didn't hire them 10 years later. And I realized, oh, this is not about a pipeline. This is about the fact that we have to literally smash the patriarchy inside of technology companies and to do that, where 99% of your funding comes from corporates, you know, to be that voice that is disrupting from the inside became harder to do.

And I was, I was able to, I knew I was, could do it more effectively as a founder—you know what I mean—than as a CEO, because I thought that that was the next iteration of our work.

[00:04:56] Anne Morriss:
Yep. And now I wanna get into that. So then tell us what you're doing now.

[00:05:00] Reshma Saujani:
Well, I'm building my next movement, Moms First. Um, it's to finish the fight for gender equality once and for all.

[00:05:06] Anne Morriss:
Wow.

[00:05:06] Reshma Saujani:
Moms First is a national nonprofit organization that's transforming our workplaces, our government, and our culture to enable moms to thrive in America. And we do that by engaging the private sector to create workplaces that finally work for women.

And we do it by organizing moms to advocate for what they need at home, at work, and at communities. Um, and like, my big KPI there is to win paid leave in childcare in as many communities, spaces, and places as I can by 2027.

[00:05:37] Anne Morriss:
So I wanna get into the theory of change. Tell me how you're starting the movement.

[00:05:42] Reshma Saujani:
So, I guess background, the United States is the only industrialized nation that doesn't offer paid leave. 40% of parents are in debt because of the cost of childcare. Moms make 58 cents on every dollar made by dads. So what happens is, like if you think about the trajectory of a young woman in America today: she’s born, she's probably like her high school valedictorian, she crushes it in college. She's recruited by every single company when she graduates college. She may even buy her own apartment. But the minute when she decides to become a mother, everything changes. From that moment onward, her financial trajectory shifts. Her opportunity for upward mobility shifts, her health shifts, her mental health shifts.

And part of that is because we have, or I would say all of it is because we have a broken structure of care, because we live in a nation that doesn't offer paid leave and that doesn't make childcare affordable, and that pays women inequitably for doing the same work as men. Mothers, I should say.

[00:06:46] Anne Morriss:
Great. Super compelling problem that you have set out to solve. So where does Moms First fit into the solution?

[00:06:54] Reshma Saujani:
So my goal is to get every single company to subsidize childcare for their hourly workers and their salaried workers. So right now, less than 6% of companies offer some sort of childcare support. The government has basically pretty much said, “We're not doing anything about it.”

So we've launched this national business coalition on childcare to get companies to basically raise their hand and say, “We're gonna be providing childcare benefits, and you should too.” So we have companies from an Etsy to a Patagonia who are basically helping us shift the, the business narrative on this.

[00:07:28] Anne Morriss:
You have two moms on the line who are very sympathetic, and I just wanna crawl into the skull-sized kingdom inside your head, and where is the, like, tension point? And one of 'em is that you thought it would be easier to raise, easier to raise money than it is.

[00:07:43] Reshma Saujani:
Easier to raise money! Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:07:44] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:07:44] Reshma Saujani:
It should have been easier to raise. It should have been like, “Hey guys, I got another idea. And I know how to do it right.”

[00:07:50] Anne Morriss:
Whatever you want, Reshma. Blank Check.

[00:07:51] Reshma Saujani:
Whatever it is. Send me, send me the check. Right? And I, so I think that that in many ways has been more challenging. When I was Girl Who Code, you know, founder, CEO year one and two, where when you did have that call with a billion dollar philanthropist and you walked away and be like, “They're gonna gimme a million dollars.”

And now I'm like, “You're not gonna gimme a damn thing, are you?” You know what I mean? And I think the second thing that's so interesting to me is like, the problem I'm solving right now is bigger than the one I was solving at Girls Who Code. And it has such—

[00:08:20] Anne Morriss:
Yeah it is. It’s more complicated.

[00:08:21] Reshma Saujani:
It’s more complicated.

[00:08:22] Anne Morriss:
It's more personal for a lot of people.

[00:08:24] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah. And it's so clearly unjust. Think about it. If we live in a nation that is forcing birth right now, if you don't have paid leave or affordable childcare, you're pushing people in, you're forcing 'em to have children, to push 'em into poverty, and it is an endless cycle. Right? Um, and so people don’t like totally see that.

[00:08:45] Anne Morriss:
What percentage of the fundraising challenge do you attribute to that piece?
[00:08:49] Reshma Saujani:
That's a great question. Well, they're so interconnected, aren't they? I mean, to me it's, it's, it's, it's about the fact that we don't invest in women and girls, and we certainly don't invest in women and girls issues that we don't fully understand it.

I'll give you that, that that could be leading to some of the fundraising issues, right? Because the, the impact of what I'm talking about takes a minute to process and I think, naively, I thought when I had my aha moment about struc—about paid leave and childcare and said, “Oh, I gotta step down at Girls Code and go solve this,” I, it was so clear to me in my head that I thought it would be clear to everybody. But it hasn't been, so it is about messaging.

[00:09:35] Anne Morriss:
Well, I, and I wanna say one thing, and then I wanna invite, um, my wife into say something, but I don't wanna lose this thought, so I'm, I'm jumping a little bit ahead, I think. But there's that obnoxious truism that, you know, happiness or satisfaction is measured by the difference between our reality and our expectations.

And I almost want to take Girls Who Code out of the storyline right now because I feel like this is a really different kind of movement that's gonna have its own arc. It's gonna have its own plot points, it's gonna have its own interesting unexpected pivots, and it's gonna end up in a really different place.

But the closer you're holding, the more tightly you're holding onto the Girls Who Code ride in the sense of this constant variance story that's running through your head—“At this moment, we were doing this and then we did this and…”—of course, ‘cause that's the recent experience you're bringing to the… I almost feel like it's harder for it to have the freedom to kind of take its own ride.

[00:10:46] Reshma Saujani:
Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. See, like in my heart I laugh ‘cause I think people, like, even for me still hold on to the Girls Who Code title and, like, not the Moms First piece. You know what I mean? I had this moment, I think a few months ago where I kind of like, “Oh wait, it's not the same playbook.” You know what I mean?

It's a different playbook. Um, and it's just understanding people. Even, even something simple of like, you know, it's easier to get money to invest in girls issues than women's issues because… especially the men.

[00:11:20] Anne Morriss:
Girls are so cute.

[00:11:22] Reshma Saujani:
So cute, so sweet.

[00:11:22] Anne Morriss:
We get so messy as we get older. Frances, tell me where your beautiful mind is going.

[00:11:30] Frances Frei:
I, I love the conversation. Um, I think that there is something in the difference between Moms First and Girls Who Code. So I'm gonna say something about that. And then I think there's a lot in the framing, uh, and I think some small tweaks in the framing could make a big difference. Um, but the, on the difference, you know, I could imagine giving money for Girls Who Code, and I'm giving enough money so that 10 girls can code, or 20 girls can code.

But for Moms First, I'm giving money for, so three companies can adopt the benefits? ‘Cause my money isn't subsidizing the benefits, it's subsidizing the communication channel to get people to do it. So it's, it's indirect—

[00:12:12] Resha Saujani:
Different.

[00:12:12] Frances Frei:
—versus direct. And I think that's just a totally different game. So on the difference, to me that's the main difference is that I'm funding something indirectly as opposed to directly.

On the framing, I, as Anne said, I love the title of Girls Whose, Who Code. It stands on its own. Moms First doesn’t—you would have to explain what it is. This isn't the right name, but it's something like Companies Who Care. You know, and we want, you know, do you wanna be a company who cares?

Uh, which has both parts of care. Right? You're caring and it's for the care of children. Now that's, that meets my literal needs. You'll come up with something else, but I think your framing challenge is big enough that to have the title not be self-evident is probably a bridge too far. Girls Who Code satisfies all of that. All of it.

Like, which is why you'll get a standing ovation, you'll get stopped on the street. It satisfies all of it. To me, it is, I’m looking for indirect help and I might have given myself a framing challenge along the way.

[00:13:23] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah. Well, we were called Marshall Plan for Moms. Talk about that big. So we changed it to Moms First, but I think I didn't get to describe all the things we do. ‘Cause it's not just the companies. I mean, the other piece is we're building a movement of moms. But you are right. It's a broader thing. You know, girls grow, we're teaching girls to grow, and these were the ways that we're doing it here.

[00:13:42] Frances Frei:
I could find 10 girls, I can 100 girls.

[00:13:44] Reshma Saujani:
I could find 10 girls. This is, it's a bigger, it's like… It's a bigger advocacy play

[00:13:50] Frances Frei:
And I didn't know what it was when we, just by reading everything, I couldn't quite get it. And so it did require a conversation with you, which—

[00:13:57] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah, for sure.

[00:13:58] Frances Frei:
—isn’t, isn't scalable.

[00:13:59] Anne Morriss:
It’s not… This is like pr-professor at the Harvard Business School who read the materials and wasn't totally sure—

[00:13:57] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah.

[00:13:58] Anne Morriss:
—where you were going. And so—

[00:14:09] Reshma Saujani:
I agree.

[00:14:09] Anne Morriss:
So where, what I think we're circling and I don’t… I think it's bigger than the literal name of the organization. I think it's a beautiful contrast to Girls Who Code, right? Because that, that one is just so intuitive. It is about how do you tell this story for a broader audience?

[00:14:26] Reshma Saujani:
I really appreciate it. I love you two, because this is what I've been struggling with, and I know this as a communicator. We're not fully there yet. And I think one of the things that is missing is the storytelling, right? Like I probably threw out 50 facts. People like, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, right? But what are the stories?

And I think part of the problem is the stories I would be telling right now is my life in raising a three-year-old and an eight-year-old. And the struggles that I have, even if someone who's privileged and who has childcare, but it's all so messy. And if I feel this way, imagine if you're someone who works at Walmart and you make $30,000, you know what I mean? It’s like—

[00:15:00] Anne Morriss:
But Reshma, listen to the assets you, you went through on this call, which is that you have moms flocking to you—

[00:15:07] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah.

[00:15:08] Anne Morriss:
—to, to say, here's my story. Like, one of the things that you are gonna have when you, as you build this movement is, is the, a resonance of stories and storytelling that is so far beyond the Girls Who Code story.

[00:15:23] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah.

[00:15:23] Anne Morriss:
So how do, like, how do you operationalize that? How do you collect those stories? How do you figure out which ones are gonna like, are gonna really be the ones that unlock this in the American imagination? In the global imagination? Because this is, you are diagnosing a problem at the scale of the entire planet.

[00:15:42] Reshma Saujani:
It's also, like, part of the struggle that I think, I feel like is like we have lost our connection with having empathy over these stories. And maybe that's, and so I gotta find a way to not just tell stories, but to tell stories in a way that is gonna make you be like, that's un—that’s wrong.

[00:15:59] Frances Frei:
You know? If I think about, um, like you mentioned WalMart, ‘cause they're the largest employer in the US, I think: what would be required for them to be able to do this? ‘Cause if you can figure out how they can do it, you can figure out how everyone else in between. So what would it take to be the compelling, the business case for, for that organization?

And if you had to prepare that story and refined that one, I, I think you've sold it for everyone, for everyone else, but I have to say that the business case of saying yes isn't immediately apparent to me. And so—

[00:16:39] Reshma Saujani:
And tell me why. Like, tell me what you would like me to know.

[00:16:43] Frances Frei:
Um, because, uh, it, I can totally see the extra expense and what's my immediate payoff? Is it gonna help me get more employees? Like if I'm, if I'm not, if they're not having a recruiting problem, is it gonna keep, I mean, if it's gonna reduce turnover—

[00:17:03] Reshma Saujani:
It's gonna reduce turnover.

[00:17:04] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So if you can do that and it can say, “Here's how much it's gonna reduce turnover.” And I like to think, “What are you willing to guarantee?” And that to me is the best thing.

We guarantee it will pay for itself with reduced turnover. And then ask them to do a pilot. Great. We’ll just do it in this region. And if it doesn't pay for itself in reduced turnover, then you don't have to adopt it for the rest of the organization. They're so empirically oriented. But I do think that that's where it would be for me, the expense I'm gonna incur on day one, how long is it gonna get for me to see and feel the benefit?

Um, and then, yeah.

[00:17:43] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah. And that said there's not enough data on this. Like you know, Etsy, Patagonia—

[00:17:47] Frances Frei:
Do a pilot at a company.

[00:17:48] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah.

[00:17:48] Frances Frei:
Do a pilot at Walmart.

[00:17:49] Reshma Saujani:
Yeah. Walmart, which is the largest employer of women.

[00:17:50] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:51] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I mean, my suspicion is this, this is the stickiest benefit.

[00:17:56] Reshma Saujani:
Yes.

[00:17:56] Anne Morriss:
And Patagonia is already done. I mean, I'm, I'm curious what the Patagonia data is around.

[00:18:00] Reshma Saujani:
It’s phenomenal.

[00:18:01] Anne Morriss:
I, I can, I can imagine. Yeah.

[00:18:04] Reshma Saujani:
But we need a, we need a bigger set. So there are companies who've been providing either backup care or onsite daycare, and even subsidies, you know, for a, a long enough for us to say, pull me back the data for the past, you know, five years.

[00:18:17] Frances Frei:
I know, uh, Harvard Business School has, uh, daycare on campus. And with the exception of the fact that it takes a long time to get off the waiting list, it's a total perk and it's a tur—total perk for women and then, and the men love it too. Um, but it's, it's an, it's a necessity for that, that you can get the kids before and after—

[00:18:39] Reshma Saujani:
And you’re not leaving your daycare You’re like, the Harvard, you know what I mean, your kid, you’re like—

[00:18:39] Anne Morriss:
Hell no. I love that it’s, that we're even tolerating a waiting list. Reshma, I hear you typing in the background.

[00:18:49] Resha Saujani:
I’ve been writing notes.

[00:18:49] Anne Morriss:
Can you tell us what you've been writing down?

[00:18:49] Reshma Saujani:
Well, I think first, the first thing I wrote is how do you tell this story and, you know, how do you operationalize it and how do you share it? And this is a conversation I've been having with my team. I mean, I, I really think it is about continuing to workshop the message and the clarity of what it is that I'm doing in trying to change and how I'm trying to make that change. I think it is a constant body of work and I have to be okay with that.

[00:19:15] Frances Frei:
And I think the goal is to understand deeply so that you can describe it simply.

[00:19:20] Resha Saujani:
Yeah.

[00:19:20] Frances Frei:
So it's understood in your absence.

[00:19:22] Reshma Saujani:
I love that.

[00:19:22] Frances Frei:
And I think that's the, that's where, that's where we wanted to come alive is in your absence.

[00:19:29] Anne Morriss:
Reshma, it was such a pleasure to meet you.

[00:19:31] Frances Frei:
You’re awesome.

[00:19:22] Anne Morriss:
You’re amazing.

[00:19:23] Reshma Saujani:
You guys are awesome.

[00:19:25] Anne Morriss:
And we're, we're rooting for you and if there's anything we can do to be helpful, please do not be shy.

[00:19:39] Reshma Saujani:
You’ll on my speed dial. Thank you. This was great.

[00:20:00] Anne Morriss:
Francis, where's your head?

[00:20:01] Frances Frei:
Going in, in all honesty, because I didn't understand what it was, it made me, if I had to guess going in, I was like, “Maybe she's not doing the right thing.” And that's not at all what I think, and think she's doing exactly the right thing. And it, it's a communication challenge, I think, at the, at the end.

But my goodness, am I inspired by people who want to make a difference in organ—work on behalf of all of us, but I, um, children first companies who care, listeners, feel free to send in additional names.

[00:20:37] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I was coming in thinking that we were gonna be, uh, crafting the right role for her, and within 10 minutes of hearing her talk, I was a hundred percent persuaded she was in the right job chasing the right dream. I do find myself thinking about how our previous roles and experiences can sometimes haunt us—

[00:20:58] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:20:58] Anne Morriss:
—in creating an expectation that just gets in the way of what—

[00:21:05] Frances Frei:
You know I, yeah.

[00:21:05] Anne Morriss:
Of the present, of the present moment.

[00:21:06] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I remember when I was a graduate student at Wharton. In a crazy sequence of events, I ended up needing to teach a class of a faculty member, and I taught the class and it went very well.
And I went in and did it and I loved it. I was terrified to go in the classroom the next year because I was going in having, you know, I won a bunch of teaching awards and I, now, I had all this pressure from no one else, but I was really nervous about doing it the second time. Now, once I did it the second time, then I never had nerves again.

‘Cause it can go well, it can be not. But that, but doing something on, on the back of success is much harder than just doing it, which is quite counterintuitive. And so having created, like, one of the most amazing not-for-profits, uh, on the planet to do it from that kind of success, I, like, I'm so excited that she's taking the swing.

She's, you know, she's doing it. And um, and I, when she said she talks about bravery and courage, I think it takes both of those things.

[00:22:12] Anne Morriss:
Thanks for listening, everyone. This is our last episode before summer break, but we'll be back in August with a whole new batch of episodes.

[00:22:20] Frances Frei:
Fixable was brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Francis Frei.

[00:22:24] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Jake Gorski is our mix engineer.

[00:22:43] Frances Frei:
If you’re enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

[00:22:49] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can, please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

[00:22:56] Frances Frei:
And it totally helps the search algorithm.