Fixable
Marcella Arguello - "How can I be candid AND professional?"
June 12, 2023
[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Frances, I want to start by asking you about a phrase I hear you use quite a bit. You use the very vivid phrase, knocking things over with your tail. And what do you mean by that?
[00:00:14] Frances Frei:
Um, it's the unintended collateral damage of how I go through the world when I'm not at my best. Um, and when I'm not paying attention to others, I might turn quickly and imagine that I had a very long dinosaur-like tail, and I turn quickly and I side-swipe people. And so it's always unintentional, and hopefully, it's a smaller shadow today than it was, uh, yesterday, but it is my watch out.
[00:00:46] Anne Morriss:
I have always been curious what the tail looks like. You're talking about a dinosaur tail.
[00:00:50] Frances Frei:
I’m talking about a dinosaur tail.
[00:00:51] Anne Morriss:
So this is, this is a, this is a tail that can do a little bit of damage,
[00:00:53] Frances Frei:
And indeed it has.
[00:00:54] Anne Morriss:
Follow-up question, Frances, does everyone have a tail?
[00:00:59] Frances Frei:
Oh no, no. Only the special ones. Um, so my watch out is the collateral damage of, uh, of swiping people. But if I look across the table at my wife, your watch out, your equivalent of this I think is people pleasing.
[00:01:18] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I don't think I have a, I'm trying to come up with a biological—
[00:01:21] Frances Frei:
You have no—I've never seen you sideswipe anything.
[00:01:24] Anne Morriss:
—uh, equivalent. If it's, if it's not the tail, what is it? Um, yeah. I do think tails come in all kinds of shapes and sizes.
[00:01:32] Frances Frei:
Yes.
[00:01:33] Anne Morriss:
Uh, and so I think part of the self-awareness ride is figuring out the contours of the tail, uh, and, and when it shows up, when you get self-distracted to the point where you're not realizing what you're hitting with your tail, which is I think where the phrase comes from for me.
[00:01:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And I, and we all have a watch out. Mine just happens to be from the late Cretaceous period.
[00:01:59] Anne Morriss:
Got it.
[00:02:00] Frances Frei:
Mine is, we all have a watch out. Mine is prehistoric.
[00:02:03] Anne Morriss:
Yes. Um, and when you say watch out, what do you mean?
[00:02:09] Frances Frei:
It's the unintended consequences of our behavior when we’re not fully attuned to what's going on.
[00:02:27] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.
[00:02:23] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei: Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor, and I'm Anne's wife.
[00:02:36] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that anything is fixable, meaningful change happens fast, and solutions are often just a single conversation away.
[00:02:44] Frances Frei:
Who are we having that conversation with today?
[00:02:45] Anne Morriss:
I'm really excited for today's caller. Her name is Marcella Arguello, and she is a comedian.
[00:02:53] Frances Frei:
Oh, she's a fantastic comedian. I listened to her HBO special, Bitch Grow Up, uh, and I've listened to her comedy album, The Woke Bully.
[00:03:03] Anne Morriss:
Which was uh, just on NPR's Best Of list just a few years ago.
[00:03:07] Frances Frei:
So I really am just quite taken with her, and that we have a chance to talk with her and perhaps be helpful is wonderful.
[00:03:15] Anne Morriss:
And if you're thinking to yourself, uh, “It, it sounds like she's doing pretty well. What, what needs to be fixed on Fixable?” Let me just remind everyone—
[00:03:27] Frances Frei:
Everyone!
[00:03:27] Anne Morriss:
—uh, that wherever you are in your career or life or in the hierarchy that you may rule over, uh, there's always something that we can make progress on. And, uh, especially I would say, uh, like Marcella, when you are on, uh, an upward trajectory and things are moving fast.
[00:03:49] Frances Frei:
And to that point, although we don’t know exactly what Marcella’s question is, we do know it has something to do with managing the business side of a career in comedy… and the different roles that come along with it. So I’m excited to hear more and see if we can be helpful.
[00:04:02] Anne Morriss:
I am too.
[BREAK]
[00:04:09] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable.
[00:04:10] Marcella Arguello:
Thank you.
[00:04:11] Frances Frei:
Totally delighted.
[00:04:12] Anne Morriss:
So I guess my opening question is what does it just, what does it feel like to walk around as you right now?
[00:04:21] Marcella Arguello:
Um, it feels like it's always felt. Um, I always get stared at because I'm so tall. Um, and now I wonder, like, I wonder if they watched the special.
[00:04:30] Anne Morriss:
How tall are you?
[00:04:31] Marcella Arguello:
I'm 6’2”.
[00:04:32] Anne Morriss:
Okay.
[00:04:33] Marcella Arguello:
Um, for our listeners who can't tell my size by my voice, but yeah, I'm 6’2”, and I, it's, it's that thing where I'm like, uh, now when I walk around, I'm like, “Maybe people watched the special and I should probably, you know, not be as unfriendly as I usually am.”
[00:04:50] Anne Morriss:
And does it, does it feel different to you to be at this part of your career than five years ago?
[00:04:56] Marcella Arguello:
You know what? It actually does, and I wasn't really expecting that at all. Like, I was, like, actually very shocked at how, uh, validated, I felt. ‘Cause I feel like the industry has always kind of, you know, done me dirty over the years and, uh, it felt good to, like, have this thing that I know I've always wanted, people always want, as comedians it's a big goal. And so, um, yeah, it just, it it feels good.
[00:05:23] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:05:24] Anne Morriss:
How do you feel like the industry has let you down when you say done you dirty?
[00:05:28] Marcella Arguello:
Oh, you know, Anne, and I'm sure you both have experiences, um, being a, I mean, even just being a little bit different, you know, like you're a little bit different.
[00:05:37] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:05:38] Marcella Arguello:
That's all it takes for the industry to be like, “We don't get it.” Um, so then you add all the elements, you know, of the personality to that, and that just like, kind of makes it worse on some levels, you know? And, and if you're fortunate, you, um, meet people in this industry, um, who may be either are a little like you or maybe have like a, an aunt or a tía that reminds them of you so they fully understand you. Like they don't need to get to know you to understand what you're about. And I feel like those relationships have really benefited me in the industry.
[00:06:11] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:06:11[ Anne Morriss:
Hmm. Great. Um, so in addition to the roles you're playing on stage, you are playing other roles offstage around managing your career.
[00:06:21] Marcella Arguello:
Yes.
[00:06:22] Anne Morriss:
Just tell us a little bit about that part of the gig.
[00:06:26] Marcella Arguello:
I mean, you have to be, especially now with the whole social media stuff, it's like you have to be everything. You know? I'm stylist, I'm makeup artist, I'm social media expert, you know, manager, agent, writer. I'm director, I'm producer, I'm editor. You know, it's, it's just a lot at, always to be thinking about.
[00:06:44] Anne Morriss:
And so on that list of a stylist, social media manager, producer, director, um, which of those roles do you like and, and not like playing?
[00:06:58] Marcella Arguello:
I think manager is definitely my least favorite because it's so, like, it's, you're so full of shit, manager, agent, you know? We're just like, “Yes, I would absolutely love to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah…”
And you're just like, “I don't talk like that, man.” You know, I got out of customer service when I was 25, um, and I thought I would never have to do it again and then come to find out, so, so much of every job is really customer service representation and um, and it's not my favorite thing to.
[00:07:28] Anne Morriss:
Um, so is this the tension, is this where you're feeling the most tension in your career right now, which is, is having to play these pseudo-manager, uh, manager-adjacent roles?
[00:07:40] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's that, and it's also, um, I, I'm, oh, even now I'm like trying to watch what I say cause it's like I have to be, I'm trying to be more careful in how I speak at all times. And it's actually very difficult for me because I just, you know, I run unfiltered. I, I mean, I get paid to be unfiltered, right? So to wake up and be unpaid and be filtered actually, logically makes no sense. Right? And, um, I think that's been the hardest thing for me is trying to maintain, uh, that, like, those professional expectations from other people, not expectations from myself, ‘cause I could give a fuck when I go to a meeting and however the person's talking, I could care less.
But I will say that in, in some of these professional settings, I just have a hard time turning that off and, and realizing like, what is actually appropriate, what's inappropriate? It's like almost like being that manager, but also where, where, when am I allowed to be myself? Is it only on stage? You know? And um, that's where my frustrations really come in. It's, it's almost like code-switching, like code-switching. You know a lot of people—
[00:08:45] Anne Morriss:
It sounded like. Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:46] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. It is. It's like code-switching with this a little, I think with the element of, um, imagine like if a stripper, um, gets to be a stripper and then during the day she still has to talk like she works, like as a bank manager or something, or you know, like, that makes no sense. And it's like, I don't know why the expectations for a comedian would be that way, but I feel like a lot of people can relate to it in the sense of like, you, you have your work voice and then you have the voice that you use with your loved ones.
[00:09:11] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:09:12] Anne Morriss:
Um, can you give an example of when you felt this most recently?
[00:09:16] Marcella Arguello:
Um, I, okay. There was one time I took a meeting with, um, like a celebrity comedian, and this person had a show and they were, um, I asked my manager, “Well, what is this interview for?” And my manager was like, “Oh, let me find out.” And, um, come to find out, she didn't find out, and she was like, “Oh, it, it's like a general, they just wanna, like, talk to you about, you know, what you're working on.”
I was like, “That's kind of strange, but okay.” And then I go to this meeting and they're like, “Oh no, we're looking for writers.” And I was like, “Oh, yeah, I don't wanna do that.” But because we, I was there, they started just being like, “Well, let's just, you know, what do you think about this show?” And, and I told them my real thoughts on this show.
And they were not nice, not realizing that they were not nice in that moment. I was just giving them my thoughts on this. You know, you asked me a question, I'm gonna tell you the truth.
[00:10:00] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:10:00] Marcella Arguello:
But, um, then the comedian got all offended. The producer was sitting there, like, stunned. I couldn't read his face though, but now I look back, I'm like, “Oh, yeah, he was stunned.”
But he kept asking me questions, so I kept digging myself into a deeper hole, not realizing I was digging myself into a deeper hole. Um, and, and then the comic was like, at the end was kind of rude. Of course, of course they were. Um, they were like, you know, “Good luck getting famous!” And I was like, okay. I didn't know what that meant.
And I realized they were like, “You're a bitch and you're never gonna make it in this town.” You know, that's what really what they were saying. And um, that was one of those moments where I was like, “Yeah, see, if my manager would've just done their job, I wouldn't even be here. And now that I'm here, I don't even know when to regulate myself.”
And, uh, that was just one of those things where I was like, I really did not prepare before I got in there, and maybe that's what I just needed to do. I, I don't know. I, I don't know how to handle some of those situations, you know, and I find myself in them a lot.
[00:10:57] Anne Morriss:
Marcella, what are you most worried about if you don't solve this problem?
[00:11:01] Marcella Arguello:
I just feel like I'm gonna keep missing opportunities, you know? Um, not that that was one that I even wanted. But you know, like the, the fact that I couldn't read that situation, um, is proof that, you know, in situations where I actually want something, I won't be able to say the right thing. And, and that, you know, makes me nervous. There is, um, a comedian, Patrice O'Neal, I'm not sure if you're familiar with his story.
[00:11:23] Frances Frei:
Mm. I adored Patrice O’Neal.
[00:11:26] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. He was the best.
[00:11:27] Frances Frei:
Adored, adored, adored.
[00:11:28] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. But he, he was notoriously known as being, like, a dickhead.
[00:11:32] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:11:32] Marcella Arguello:
And, um, and getting himself in these precarious situations and then being like, “Oh, I guess my career is suffering, and I probably could do something to change that. And it starts with myself.”
[00:11:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:11:43] Anne Morriss:
Um, alright. I wanna get into this. Frances, do you wanna summarize?
[00:11:48] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So, the phrase you had that I really love is that, “I get paid to be unfiltered. And so I have to be filtered when I'm not paid?”
[00:11:57] Marcella Arguello: Yeah.
[00:11:58] Frances Frei:
Like I just, that sort of captures just the particular code-switching that you are doing in the professional context. We talk a lot about how we can earn the trust of someone else, and what we know is that people will trust us when they experience our authenticity, which is really what this is talking about.
[00:12:20] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:12:20] Frances Frei:
Of how much of you should you be, right? When can we be all of us? And if we decide we can't be all of us, what are the hacks that we can use to effectively know when and how to do it in the least painful way.
[00:12:36] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah. Great. I wanna start in a super practical place and then, and then push on. Some of the deep stuff Frances is, is pushing on in a minute. Um, but I wanna start with just the, with like what we would categorize in our world as job design, right?
And like, in the world of people that you're working with, like, what are you doing? What are the other people doing? Is there someone else on the team that can do more of this work so that you're doing less of some of it? And I'll just give you an example, an example of where this tension showed up for me this week.
Um, so I have this very, um, like people-pleasing impulse. And so when this side of me is gonna miss deadlines, right, I will send Frances in because if, like, if this part of me gets on the phone with my editor, um, she's gonna be like, “So when's the chapter…” “Tomorrow? Tomorrow.” Uh, and I'm just flat-out lying.
[00:13:45] Frances Frei:
Sure.
[00:13:46] Anne Morriss:
I’m just flat-out lying. Um, and it, if that doesn't work as an adult. So I can beat my, and I have beat myself up about this impulse in me, or I could do this very practical thing of send Frances in to negotiate.
[00:14:03] Frances Frei:
And I navigate, I negotiate with Anne and I negotiate with the book publishing.
[00:14:08] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:14:08] Frances Frei:
And it’s all good.
[00:14:09] Anne Morriss:
So I, I think where my head goes first is, is there someone in your life, like can there be a third party that does some of this work? Because you have this amazing superpower, this ability to speak truth. Um, but the shadow side is there are environments where that truth is not helpful, and it's not serving you.
[00:14:27] Marcella Arguello:
R ight. Yeah.
[00:14:28] Anne Morriss:
So can we put a little distance, or can we give you some armor or, or can we just even, like, phone a friend in some of those situations so the burden is not entirely on you to do all of this heavy lifting?
[00:14:42] Marcella Arguello:
That's funny. I was, um, talking to my mom about, um, I was like, “I think I need to hire an assistant. I think it's time.”
[00:14:49] Frances Frei:
Yes.
[00:14:49] Marcella Arguello:
You're, you're, you're totally right. I am definitely like, I think it's time. I think it's time.
[00:14:54] Frances Frei:
And here might be requirements for membership into the privileged place of being your assistant.
[00:15:00] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:15:01] Frances Frei:
I could imagine an assistant that travels with you.
[00:15:03] Marcella Arguello:
Yes.
[00:15:04] Frances Frei:
And then you would maybe have an assistant who travels with you, who is good at reading the room in these meetings.
[00:15:10] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:15:11] Frances Frei:
Or you guys can have your secret hand signals.
[00:15:13] Marcella Arguello:
Sure. That's a good idea.
[00:15:16] Frances Frei:
Yeah, ‘cause, and then you might not need them to be great at some of the other things that other people need, need assistance for.
[00:15:21] Marcella Arguello:
Sure, sure.
[00:15:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Like you're, I'm sure crushing email or whatever it is. Right? You don't need the assistant to do that, right?
[00:15:26] Frances Frei:
No. No.
[00:15:27] Anne Morriss:
Um, but you need someone who's great in the room who, who can read where Marcella's about to say something she's gonna regret.
[00:15:33] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I've never thought about that, but that's true. Beyond… Because I'm, I was thinking like an assistant who like does the emails and, and it's just like, but I don't need that. But you’re right.
[00:15:42] Frances Frei:
I don't think you need that. I don't think you need that.
[00:15:44] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:44] Anne Morriss:
But like, what are you gonna really solve for in the hiring?
[00:15:48] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:15:48] Frances Frei:
Perhaps it helps to know that politicians often have what they call a chief of staff. And that's who does this. And if you meet with politicians, they always have the person with them. And it's desired for the being on the road and for all of that experience.
[00:16:06] Marcella Arguello:
So this is interesting because I never thought to consider, like a tag-along, you know?
[00:16:12] Frances Frei:
And it's a tag, you, I just think you want a tag-along who you’re actually willing to spend time with.
[00:16:17] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a friend who we've been talking about it and, um, and I'm, I'm very intrigued by that.
[00:16:24] Anne Morriss:
Here's my follow-up. Um, is there any pattern to what's happening for you from when these meetings don't feel great? Like time of day? Have you slept well? Like morning—
[00:16:35] Marcella Arguello:
Oh no. That, that isn’t—
[00:16:38] Anne Morriss:
Location… is it, is it like pulling you aside after a set?
[00:16:42] Marcella Arguello:
It can be, I’m telling you, dude, this is why it's a problem because it's anytime. And I'm Janet Jackson. Anytime, any place. I—
[00:16:48] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:16:49] Marcella Arguello:
I mean.
[00:16:50] Anne Morriss:
Okay. Alright, alright.
[00:16:50] Marcella Arguello:
And that, which is also how I know it's me. Do you know what I mean? Like.
[00:16:54] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:16:55] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:16:54] Marcella Arguello:
That’s part of why I'm like, “This is something I need to work on.” Because it, it's not always men talking down to me or it's not always, like, white women thinking they know more than I do about my own background. It's not, it's not, it's, it's everyone, and it's everything and it's every scenario and I'm like, “Oh, it's me.” It's just like in the special, I say “It's me. I'm the problem,” you know.
[00:17:14] Frances Frei:
So if I go back to the authenticity part, in our work, we find that when people are really high on the authenticity scale, we often tell them less is more. The barometer to shoot for is that off-stage I would be thinking at a 75% level. So you are gonna bring—
[00:17:33] Anne Morriss:
75% of myself.
[00:17:35] Frances Frei:
Of full, of your full self.
[00:17:36] Marcella Arguello:
Okay.
[00:17:37] Frances Frei:
And so I'm never saying bring someone not you, because that will not work.
[00:17:42] Marcella Arguello:
Sure, sure.
[00:17:43] Frances Frei:
And I think you'd be terrible because… From how beautiful you are at authenticity, those of us that are beautiful at authenticity usually can't fake it at all.
[00:17:50] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:17:51] Frances Frei:
And so now the thought experiment is, “I'm gonna carry my luggage into the room, but which bag am I leaving outside of the door?” And so I'm gonna give you just a couple of thoughts for it, but these are just thought starters. So when you are making keen insights about people that are not in the room, bring that bag right into the room. Bring it. Bring it. Bring it.
When you're making keen insights about you, bring it into the room. When you're having keen insights about the other people in the room, that's the one you might wanna leave outside the door, even if people are trying to lure you into it. Because you were like, in that one example you gave us, they were like, “No, no, no. Tell us what you think about—”
[00:18:32] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:18:33] Frances Frei:
Our baby. Here's the preamble you could say: “Here’s my initial instinct, but I am not at all sure I'm right.” That can make all the difference in the room.
[00:18:44] Marcella Arguello:
Sure. Absolutely.
[00:18:45] Frances Frei:
How does that resonate to you?
[00:18:48] Marcella Arguello:
That's interesting. I've never thought about that, but I think you're right. I do kind of need to start sprinkling those in because people, people can't handle it. I mean, and why should they? Why should they?
[00:18:58] Frances Frei:
And only when it's about them. Please don’t, don’t displace any of that stuff. Because it’s your magic.
[00:19:02] Marcella Arguello:
Sure. No, no, you’re—trust me. You're not. I, I, but that's why I'm like, “Oh, that's interesting.” Because especially people who don't know me, you know, they, they might need that little extra, like—
[00:19:13] Frances Frei:
Just a little bit.
[00:19:14] Marcella Arguello:
Little, little life, life jacket, you know? Like that's what it is. You know?
[00:19:17] Frances Frei:
Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
[00:19:19] Marcella Arguello:
I like it a lot actually. I think it’s… You’re right because I, I'm telling you, it's one of the hardest things that I have to deal with. And that's, I, might be a great suggestion that I, I wi—hat is a great suggestion that I will be implementing. Yes. Thank you.
[00:19:32] Anne Morriss:
And it’s, it’s making me think too that, um, there is this unspoken contract with your audience when you're on stage.
[00:19:38] Marcella Arguello:
Yes.
[00:19:39] Anne Morriss:
That, like, “you have my consent to beat the shit out of me.”
[00:19:44] Marcella Arguello:
Right.
[00:19:45] Frances Frei:
I, In fact, I've deliciously watched you do it in your, it's so good.
[00:19:50] Marcella Arguello:
Thank you.
[00:19:51] Anne Morriss:
And you're amazing at crowd work. So, but, but I'm there because I know that that's a possibility.
[00:19:54] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:19:55] Anne Morriss:
I know it might happen. I can armor up, and I can kind of meet you on the battlefield and we can have some fun with this. But in the average meeting, with the average bear.
[00:20:05] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:20:06] Anne Morriss:
Right? They're not gonna be armored up.
[00:20:08] Marcella Arguello:
Right.
[00:20:08] Anne Morriss:
And so when that part of you shows up, I think it, it can be jarring.
[00:20:14] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:20:14] Frances Frei:
Can you give them a pillow to sit on?
[00:20:15] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:20:15] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:20:15] Frances Frances:
Put just a little something.
[00:20:18] Marcella Arguello:
Little training bra. Yeah.
[00:20:18] Anne Morriss:
But like, but like a couple phrases—
[00:20:12] Marcella Arguello:
Yes.
[00:20:12] Anne Morriss:
That you can think about in a premeditated way that feel authentic to you, that just signal to the room that you come in peace.
[00:20:30] Marcella Arguello:
Right, right.
[00:20:31] Anne Morriss:
Right? And no one's gonna get hurt because no one has to get hurt.
[00:20:34] Marcella Arguello:
Right.
[00:20:34] Anne Morriss:
But we're gonna, we might need some reassurance.
[00:20:37] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:20:38] Anne Morriss:
Uh, that, that we're all gonna be okay.
[00:20:40] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. Yeah. That's great.
[00:20:43] Anne Morriss:
And I'm not willing to give up on this pattern thing that I'm gonna invite you to reflect on, because I also, I also like the power dynamic of you having terms around these meetings. Because I feel like you're at a point of your career where you could have some terms. I don't talk business—
[00:21:02] Frances Frei:
Before 10 o'clock.
[00:21:03] Anne Morriss:
Or after. I don't do it after I've just performed, you know?
[00:21:09] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:21:10] Anne Morriss:
I bring someone with me. Like, whatever it, I, I think—
[00:21:13] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:21:13] Anne Morris:
There's an opportunity here for, for you to start looking at your own patterns around—
[00:21:17] Frances Frei:
And think what's ideal for you. Not what's passable, but what's ideal for you.
[00:21:22] Marcella Arguello:
In the same vein of that, I don't have business phone calls. That’s, like, a big rule I have, or I say everything has to be written in an email. I don't do business over text. I don't do business over phone. That’s one of those things that I have a, I have implemented for many, many years.
[00:21:35] Anne Morriss:
Beautiful.
[00:21:36] Marcella Arguello:
And I'm like, “Oh, I get it now. I can do different versions of it for myself, for my mental health and for my self-regulating…”
[00:21:38] Frances Frei:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[00:21:45] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I want that list to be longer now.
[00:21:47] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. No, it will be, this is, this is great. I love this.
[00:21:50] Anne Morriss:
I want it to be around these meetings.
[00:21:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.
[BREAK]
[00:22:06] Anne Morriss:
I, I can't let you go without challenging the story a little bit, that you are necessarily bad at this. Because we have watched enough of your incredible comedy to see you interact with a lot of humans and do so in a way that takes a lot of empathy.
So the part of you that can, like, show up and read immediately what you need to do so you can create an experience—
[00:22:35] Marcella Arguello:
Sure.
[00:22:35] Anne Morriss:
With this other person, for all the other people in the room, I wanna figure out how to activate that side of you and give her the task of making sure that everyone in that meeting is okay and comes out unharmed.
[00:22:51] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah.
[00:22:52] Anne Morriss:
You and everybody else in the room.
[00:22:53] Marcella Arguello:
Sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I am a very empathetic person. Um, so that's an interesting point I have not thought about, and I will definitely think about it more. On my own for sure. You have, you have made me speechless, Anne.
[00:23:10] Anne Morriss:
Um, so we're obligated to ask, uh, what are you gonna do differently next week? Vision.
[00:23:16] Marcella Arguello:
Um, I'm definitely going to try to figure out when do I struggle the most. You know, my tendency has always been to drink to, you know, soothe some of my, uh, some of my own bullshit. And I'm trying to not do that.
And so I think it's cool to start preparing for, reframing my mindset before I walk into a room, you know, like make sure you're not going in there with your knives out. Um, ‘cause I, I think that I just automatically work that way. I have the time to be more conscious of it, and it's just, which is why I am trying to do it now, because, um, it's possible. Um, so I think I need to start walking into the room a little bit differently.
[00:23:59] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. That's available to you.
[00:24:00] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:24:01] Anne Morriss:
Um, and you don't, and you don't have to do all of this alone.
[00:24:04] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I look forward to that suitcase just being left outside the door. You bring all the other beautiful suitcases in.
[00:24:09] Marcella Arguello:
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:10] Frances Frei:
You just leave that one outside the door and you pick it up on the way up.
[00:24:12] Marcella Arguello:
Yes, that's right. Yes.
[00:24:13] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:24:13] Marcella Arguello:
That’s a good, I do… I am a bag lady often when I travel, so that's like a great, uh, way for me to think about things.
[00:24:20] Frances Frei:
It's license to get a beautiful bag too, for that, that specific purpose.
[00:24:24] Marcella Arguello:
How many tote bags do I need? Do you know what I mean?
[00:24:26] Frances Frei:
Yes!
[00:24:26] Marcella Arguello:
I have enough.
[00:24:29] Anne Morriss:
All right. Thank you so much.
[00:24:31] Marcella Arguello:
Thank you! This was awesome.
[00:24:32] Frances Frei:
So glad.
[00:24:40] Anne Morriss:
Frances, did you identify with anything Marcella was saying?
[00:24:44] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh, thank you for asking as opposed to saying. Yeah, I have to leave that bag outside the room. But you know what, I never had, it's not, that's not a preexisting metaphor I had.
It only came to me when she was discussing it. And I do think I'm great for the peop—you know, on the outside things, but I have to be more considerate of the people in the room because the edges are, can, even though I don't want them to feel sharp, the edges are sharp. And so I learned a lot from this. I learned a lot from this conversation.
Anne, which bag do you leave outside the door and what's in it?
[00:25:24] Anne Morriss:
Um, yeah, it's interesting ‘cause I come at this room challenge from the opposite perspective. So I will be over, I will over-index on the emotions of—
[00:25:37] Frances Frei:
Everyone else, yeah.
[00:25:38] Anne Morriss:
—in the room and not say the thing that needs to be said. Um, so the fierce advocate for me often doesn't get to come in the room unless I'm quite intentional. And so I do some work now because if I don't do the work, default—
[00:25:56] Frances Frei:
She's just not coming.
[00:25:57] Anne Morriss:
She’s in the parking garage; she’s not in the fucking hall. She's not even allowed in the building. But if I do the work, then she comes and, is, can sit quietly in the room, um, and can take over when she needs to. But I have to be quite intentional.
[00:26:13] Frances Frei:
When you're gonna summon her, what, is it a physical artifact? Is it a state of mind? Like, how do you summon her?
[00:26:22] Anne Morriss:
Um, like I will sometimes bring our son's Legos. I'll put, like, a Lego piece in my pocket just to remind me to be, uh, just my three-dimensional authentic self. Um, but I think the work in the room for me is not cueing the advocate. It's calling off the people pleasers.
[00:26:47] Frances Frei:
That's actually great.
[00:26:48] Anne Morriss:
You know it, tell telling them that they,
[00:26:50] Frances Frei:
You gotta go tell people to sit down.
[00:26:51] Anne Morriss:
They need to sit down. Thank you for joining us for this conversation.
[00:26:59] Frances Frei:
If you wanna figure out your workplace problem together, please get in touch. You can do that through email: fixable@ted.com. Or with a voicemail. 234-Fixable. That's 234- 349-2253. Thanks, everybody.
Fixable was brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It’s hosted by me, Frances Frei.
[00:27:33] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Kean Kott, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quin, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Jake Gorski is our mix engineer.
[00:27:55] Frances Frei:
We’ll be bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week, so make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:28:02] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing: if you can please take a second to leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners. Particularly when they have nice things to say about us.
[00:28:10] Frances Frei:
We’ll see you very soon.