How to finally make meetings productive with Master Fixer Claire Hughes Johnson (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hello Frances.

[00:00:03] Frances Frei:
Hello my love.

[00:00:03] Anne Morriss:
We get to record another episode of Fixable.

[00:00:06] Frances Frei:
I love our weekly date.

[00:00:07] Anne Morriss:
It’s a good day. Uh, so the topic of today is meetings.

[00:00:13] Frances Frei:
Oh, it's like a great topic.

[00:00:15] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I was trying to think of the worst meeting—

[00:00:18] Frances Frei:
Oh, what a great question

[00:00:19] Anne Morriss:
—that I have ever been a part of. Um, so one is coming to me. This was a company I, I worked at early in my career, and things were not going well. So.

[00:00:34] Frances Frei:
And there were traces of the unwellness in the meetings?

[00:00:40] Anne Morriss:
There was, I, you know, causality; we’re gonna try to establish that on this call, but definitely there was correlation between bad meetings and bad performance, but we all got dragged in.

It was, you know, it was, it was a young company. We were doing something really hard and, um, and it wasn't working. And we all got dragged into the conference room, you know, all, I don't know, 20 of us. It, it, uh, at that stage. And the, the, the head of the company asked, in the meeting, his opening line was, “What are all the junior people in this company doing?”

And I, in my 20-something stupidity, thought it would be a good time to ask him what all the senior people—

[00:01:31] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[00:01:32] Anne Morriss:
—were doing in the company. So I, my. You could start, you could start the clock on how long I lasted.

[00:01:43] Frances Frei:
You know, this, um, this reminds me of the asking the question back. When I would get in trouble, my father would say he would use Frances as my name, and otherwise, he called me Franny. And he, at one point didn't appreciate something I was doing, and he said, I don't, oh, he would actually call me Frances Xavier. He's like, “I don't wanna hear it, Frances Xavier.” And I said, at the age of eight, “Then let me not hear it from you.” And then I, then I—

[00:02:15] Anne Morriss:
It was, it was exactly the same energy, which is why this memory is being triggered. It was eight.

[00:02:22] Frances Frei:
It was eight. You’re like, we were both eight. I just happened to be chronologically eight.

[00:02:25] Anne Morriss:
I was, I was 22, but it was the eight-year-old in me.

[00:02:29] Frances Frei:
Yeah. That's awesome.

[00:02:30] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, the company didn't make it. Uh, and maybe there was a connection there that the stakes of getting meetings right is higher than we all realize.

[BREAK]

[00:02:43] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:02:49] Frances Frei:
And I’m Frances Frei. I’m a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:02:53] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is Fixable, and good solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[00:03:05] Frances Frei:
What are we up to today, Anne?

[00:03:07] Anne Morriss:
Frances, we have a very special episode today. We are bringing on our first-ever Master Fixer. So this isn't someone who's looking for help from us, but someone who's already earned some hard-won knowledge on a topic that they're gonna share.

Our master fixer today is Claire Hughes Johnson. She's the former COO of the financial services company Stripe, where she's still involved as an advisor and member of the board. Claire helped to build Stripe from a company with just over a hundred employees to an organization with more than 50,000 people on the payroll. And before that, she was at Google where she was a big part of their enormous growth as well.

[00:03:50] Frances Frei:
She’s also just written an amazing book, Scaling People: Tactics for Management and Company Building. And as you can see I'm doing right now, I just like to caress this book.

[00:04:00] Anne Morriss:
You are cradling—listeners, Francis is cradling the book.

[00:04:05] Frances Frei:
It has all of the answers. Uh, it has all of the answers in it.

[00:04:09] Anne Morriss:
These are strong words, Francis. So Claire's gonna talk to us now about a topic which is very close to both of our hearts. And that is how to run a great meeting. Because as we all know, this is actually not easy to do.

[00:04:27] Frances Frei:
And what Claire is, is so beautifully known for is she adds zeroes. She's in companies when they're adding zeroes to the number of employees and adding zeros to the revenues.

[00:04:36] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. So at Stripe, we're talking about million, single digit millions, and then we're measuring in billions.

[00:04:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:04:44] Anne Morriss:
Uh, the, the dollars coming in. So, um…

[00:04:47] Frances Frei:
And, and, and Claire will say that one of the most critical things that we can do to facilitate that is to run great meetings. And for so many of us, that is such an elusive thing.

[BREAK]

[00:05:24] Anne Morriss:
Claire, welcome to Fixable.

[00:05:26] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Thank you. I'm thrilled to be joining you.

[00:05:29] Anne Morriss:
We're very excited because you are our first master fixer that we are hosting on the show.

[00:05:35] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Wow. Is that like you go from being a apprentice to a journeyman to some kind of master? I love it.

[00:05:41] Anne Morriss:
Yes. Yes. That’s exactly—

[00:05:42] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I got promoted so rapidly at this organization. Thank you.

[00:05:45] Anne Morriss:
Well, you knew management, so you got in there. All right, well, we're gonna get into it now. Today, we're on a mission to fix meetings, Frances. Before we dive in, I, I do wanna give a little background on the current state of meeting affairs so people understand how big of an issue this really is.

The first thing to know is that these days we are meeting more than ever before. So according to a study done by Microsoft, the amount of time workers are spending in meetings more than tripled between February 2020 and February, uh, 2022. Another study from the same year found that it's gotten to the point where the majority of Americans spend nearly a third of their working hours in meetings.

And it's not like we had figured this out pre-pandemic. Even in the before times, meeting bloat was costing companies dearly. In 2019, uh, the, the management consulting firm, Korn Ferry did a survey and found that 67% of workers said excessive meetings were distracting them from making an impact at work.

I mean that is, like, an astonishing statement. That is your job when you go to work is to have an impact. And meetings were getting in the way. That same year, Doodle, the meeting management tool which I love, released a report estimating that across the US, UK, Germany, and Switzerland, pointless meetings cost companies about half a trillion dollars a year combined. Half a trillion dollars.

[00:07:24] Frances Frei:
What's astounding to me is that we have never met anyone who said, “Oh, good! Meetings.” Right? Uh, and so in every company we knew it was a problem, but I just never really thought to aggregate it like this. The numbers are astonishing.

[00:07:41] Anne Morriss:
So, Claire, let's get you in here. What is your reaction to this astonishing data?

[00:07:48] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Yeah. Um, you know, you just made me think of, I remember I was in a meeting at Google, which was probably the biggest meeting I'd ever been in. We were in the biggest conference room we have. I don't know how many people are in there. 60? I mean, it was a lot of people. And as we walked out, the CFO at the time of Google was in the meeting, and I heard him turn to his colleague in front of me and say, “Oh my God what that meeting cost.” And I never, and, and he literally meant, I believe, the cost of the compensation of the people in that room.

[00:08:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:08:20] Claire Hughes Johnson:
But I think probably also the opportunity cost of their time. Uh, and I never, I've never forgotten that moment ‘cause I, it was the first time I actually started to think, “Should I do the math?” Like when I have a meeting, should I be looking at, at like what we would build by the hour and what we were costing the company? And it is a very important question to ask yourself. Is ROI, uh, actually positive on the 30 or 45 or 60 minutes you just spent? And unfortunately, Anne, you're right, the answer is often no. And that is why meetings get a bad name.

[00:08:53] Anne Morriss:
And, and what else do you think is at stake, like, uh, in addition to the, the literal cost?

[00:08:59] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Well, I mean, I think the other thing is people talk a lot about culture and the challenge with really bad meetings in a company is that is eroding the culture because it is the, one of the purest expressions of how we work.

And you have a bunch of bad meetings happening, especially if they're run by leaders in the company who are meant to be, you know, leading. Uh, it creates a sort of insidious decline of standards. Uh, so I think that's actually more costly, frankly, than how many billable hours got wasted.

[00:09:38] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:09:39] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Uh, and then of course the results. A bad meeting is probably not resulting in good outcomes. And so you're, you're not moving the needle on the work you gotta get done.

[00:09:48] Frances Frei:
Right.

[00:09:48] Anne Morriss:
It seems like a lot of companies now are trying to deal with this problem with a very blunt instrument like no meeting Fridays or, um, should we just throw in the towel?

[00:09:58] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Yeah. It's like kind of a funny thing, like I think the medical analogy, which I don't know why this popped into my head, is like, oh, you just cut the tumor out. Like just stop it. Right?

And I, that is not this kind of problem. This is more like a weightlifting situation.

[00:10:14] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:10:14] Claire Hughes Johnson:
This is more like you're weak.

[00:10:17] Anne Morriss: Yeah.

[00:10:18] Claire Hughes Johnson:
And you need to lift progressively heavier weights to be stronger. You know, instead of cutting off your arm so that you don't lift any weights. I just find it so, ‘cause you cannot run a company, I'm sorry, I haven't figured out, without any meetings. I don't think that's, that's not really how humans work. So, so, yeah. I, I’m always mystified by the “we're just gonna get rid of them”.

[00:10:40] Anne Morriss:
Do you have a, a theory on why this muscle is so underdeveloped?

[00:10:46] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I think it's because people don't realize a good meeting takes work. And it's a skill. And the people, multiple people involved, need to have skills.

And those skills need to be developed. And then they need to be honed, um, just like again, weightlifting or a sport. You need to practice, and you need to get feedback, and you need to get better. And I think that people feel like a meeting is a thing you put on a calendar and then people show up and that's, that's it.

Uh, it's just a block of time to talk and you're just sitting there with this white space where no one's really prepared. And that is, that is a meeting, but it is not actually what is the best use of that time?

[00:11:28] Anne Morriss:
Well, I wanna get into everybody's role in this company ‘cause we're gonna get super tactical.

[00:11:32] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Great.

[00:11:40] Anne Morriss:
But I wanna get to the kind of upside case for meetings. You say in your book that your secret power is the ability to run a repeatable operating system for every team you manage and that it has the same components, clear missions, stated goals, metrics that matter, similar meeting structures, and weekly and quarterly cadences. I feel like there are so many people and operators who would be surprised to learn that on your short list of superpowers, you're including the word meeting.

[00:12:13] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Yeah, I mean, as I said, this is how you do the work. And yes, there's a lot of work you can do by reading asynchronously and commenting on documents and sending emails for sure. But in my experience and in my opinion, including my strengths as a leader, the most work you can get done that’s the highest impact will be with other humans in real-time. And—

[00:12:37] Anne Morriss:
And that's called a fucking meeting, everyone.

[00:12:38] Claire Hughes Johnson:
It's called a meeting.

[00:12:38] Anne Morriss:
Give us a little texture, Claire, on what a great meeting is. Like, how do we know we've gotten it right? And there, again, we're gonna figure out how to get there. But just tell us where we're heading.

[00:12:53] Claire Hughes Johnson:
First of all, not every meeting I run is perfection—

[00:12:56] Anne Morriss:
I refuse to believe that.

[00:12:57] Claire Hughes Johnson:
And I just wanna be clear to those know me who are listening are laughing. But I will tell you my lesson that I learned repeatedly is the more that I prepare for that meeting, the better the meetings are.

And, uh, the meeting type that I am famous for are what I call offsites, but they're often on-site. But anyway, they're really, when you pull everybody out of the day-to-day and you stick 'em in a room for half a day or a whole day. The amount of time I spend preparing for that time is, is very high. And then the payoff is often quite high because I've actually really thought about it.

So, the number one thing is you've gotta have the preparation, which involves, you know, understanding why are you meeting, what are the objectives of this time, what are we trying to accomplish. You need to think about who needs to be there to meet that objective. Often we are confused about who needs to be in the meeting, and it starts to become kind of a clown car of everybody who can get into the room because it somehow signifies something.

Uh, and then, do people understand the agenda of time? Like, how are we going to spend the time together? Because it's important that they understand that because you'll hear the expression someone has hijacked a meeting. I think if someone has hijacked a meeting, I, maybe 5% of the time that's their fault a little bit, but most of the time it's ‘cause they did not know the purpose of the meeting or how the time was meant to be spent. And then they just made their own decision and I don't blame them.

[00:14:21] Frances Frei:
I love that reframing. If you put material in front of a group of people, they're going to talk about what comes to mind in the absence of guardrails.

[00:14:30] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Yeah. They’re gonna talk about what they would like to talk about.

[00:14:33] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And which will be the materials, um, digested in many, many different ways.

[00:14:37] Claire Hughes Johnson:
So yeah, you wanna have, why are we meeting, the agenda (which we were just talking about), how are we gonna spend the time so everyone's sort of expectations are set, and then the limit, meaning we are gonna end.

[00:14:49] Anne Morriss:
And, and are you putting this down on paper beforehand? Are you briefing any, everyone when we come into the meeting? Is this on a piece of paper labeled agenda? Is it loaded up in your head to, so that you can skillfully manage?

[00:15:03] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Oh, no, no. There's always an agenda. No, I, I, one of my biggest lessons, uh, earlier in my career, which is, you know, you learn you have to manage different people differently, and you learn there are different work styles and preferences. And I am someone who's very comfortable with ambiguity, and I'm comfortable being told with about 30 seconds’ notice, “Hey, this thing is about to happen.”

Uh, Frances, this is what, how Frances takes advantage of me sometimes. I'm like, “All right, I'll roll with it.” You know, but, but I, you know, had some people on my teams who I noticed, like, just didn't really perform optimally. And I went and I kind of was curious and I said, “Tell me what's going on or how could that have gone better or what happened.” Often in a meeting by the way.

And they would say to me, “I just, I didn't get any material ahead of time, and I need to think.” ‘Cause they're often introverts, right? So extroverts talk to think and introverts think to talk. And what I had been doing is basically being biased against my poor introverted team members by not giving them any thinking time prior to having to talk.

And so what did they do? They just did not talk. And I don't blame them because I didn't give them an agenda. I didn't give them the pre-read. They were in the moment having to react. Uh, and that is not comfortable for certain people's brains.

[00:16:18] Anne Morriss:
Well, let's go to an, let's go to an adjacent topic, which is broadly running an inclusive meeting. So there's gonna be a range of people in the room with different needs, different perspective, different levels, different life experiences, different relationships to the problem, and whatever else is on the agenda. How do you make sure that you are honoring those different needs and getting all of the voices that need to be weighing in on the conversation to, to be active?

[00:16:49] Claire Hughes Johnson:
So I think it's actually a pretty Jedi-level thing to have designed, architected the whole meeting, and then to facilitate it and be a participant. Uh, especially if there's a very important decision. And by the way, when I do the whole, all of it at once, which I have done, I am exhaust—

[00:17:07] Frances Frei:
Exhaused.

[00:17:07] Claire Hughes Johnson:
And I’m pretty high-energy extrovert. I am exhausted because I have done seven roles at once. I've been taking notes, running the meeting, making decisions, facilitating, making sure I'm inclusive. Like, that is a lot to ask of one human. And so, I'm really a big believer in being clear about not only is everyone's role in the meeting to be engaged and to participate in meeting the objective and, and they should be there because they help meet the objective. But there can be roles; there can be a note-taker. There can also be a facilitator of something that I've heard called a process person.

And this is a long-winded answer, Anne, to your question, which is I've seen it be actually pretty effective. and again, you have to publicly state this to give the person air cover, which is to say, “I've asked Sarah to just really help observe the meeting, make sure that we're sticking to our objective.” And also to observe participation and to, to pause the meeting and invite, if there's been people we've not heard from or people that she's noticed are trying to participate, who are not seeming like they're gonna the airtime, and you give this person permission to say, “Hey, I, we haven't heard from Anne yet.”

Anne, did you have an opinion on this decision we're making? Are you, you good? Like, not put Anne on the spot, but just make sure that everyone has had an opportunity to participate.

[00:18:29] Frances Frei:
That’s a beautiful way to do it. In the times when I haven't divided up the job, and I'm going to going forward—because the exhaustion thing is real—but when I've been doing the multiple hats in one meeting and we think of how to run an inclusive meeting, I try to explicitly seek difference.

So what I do is like, if we have a meeting, we're gonna make a decisiom, and you call on the first person to um, and you know, whoever raises their hand gets to speak first. If I'm not careful, and I just then call on the next person, chances are if the first person said A, the second person is gonna say near A, and then the third person is gonna say near, near A.

So what I do is call on the first person and after they speak, I just, I, I've learned to say it in pretty tight set of words. “Can someone articulate a different point of view?” And the language there matters. ‘Cause I'm not asking if someone has, ‘cause for some people particularly of lower status, they don't wanna take that risk.

So can someone articulate a different point of view? And then, so then the next person says B. And then I just say that sentence one final time. Can someone articulate a different, an even different point of view? And then we have diverged early so that we can get to a much higher convergence as opposed to the converger early to a super low optimum.

[00:19:49] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Right. Higher quality convergence. Right? Because everybody has heard all of the points of view.

[00:19:55] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:19:55] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I, I, I think that's great. And I think, Frances, you're right ‘cause people will often just pile and say, “Well, I agree with what so-and-so said.”

[00:20:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:20:02] Claire Hughes Johnson:
And this is a, another form of a more subtle inclusion issue, which is when people restate what someone else has said and then act like they owned it and not really give credit, uh, to the person.

And so I try to create a norm around, let's really listen, acknowledge contributions, not repeat, and, and add if it's really important to add. But I think you're on the right track, which is actually, we're looking for more divergence. And this is where your agenda section is important, which is we're gonna spend five minutes talking about the thing, what is it, and then we're gonna spend 20 minutes diverging all the potential decisions we might make, and then we're gonna converge. Right?

[00:20:42] Anne Morriss:
Do any of these rules change in our hybrid Zoom-filled remote world, or is it the same stuff?

[00:20:49] Claire Hughes Johnson:
The thing that's increased in the hybrid world is, uh, what, again, this is sort of a Stripe vocabulary word. That's a real word, but, but the lurkers, but you know? There’s a little bit more of people who are like, “Well, I, I, I think I might join. I'm just gonna have my video off ‘cause I'm kind of like gonna be in the background doing other stuff. But if I hear something interesting or my name, I might, you know…” De-lurk is what we call it at Stripe.

I'm gonna de-lurk, you know? Anyway, so I think that, uh, I would, again, more formalize that. Uh, let me give an example. We have a meeting type that, well, we call it the fishbowl because we wanted to create a meeting where we'd be doing real work, often with the founders on decisions and direction for a lot of more creative things in the company.

And what we realized is it's not comfortable to have a lot of people actively in that meeting, or either physically or on Zoom on their cameras talking about creation and design. But it's incredibly valuable for people to watch that in action. And so we created this fishbowl thing where people could lurk in and either watch live people in a conference room, seriously, with their cameras off on Zoom from another room or now on Zoom, but with their cameras off and quiet so that they could get up to speed on how we make certain types of creative decisions.

[00:22:05] Anne Morriss:
Wow.

[00:22:05] Frances Frei:
What a great education and great for the culture. Great for everything.

[00:22:09] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And a great use of technology.

[00:22:11] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:11] Anne Morriss:
Like suddenly you can scale access to that meeting in a way that's not disruptive, but in a way that was impossible before.
[00:22:17] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Well, thank you for saying. I mean, I, I actually, I will take a little, I, I came up with this with our head of product marketing ‘cause we were frustrated that we couldn't scale some of that tacit knowledge.

But I think taking advantage of, of what's happening in the hybrid world more is, is the name of the game, but making explicit. People need to be told because we all have different expectations, right, of what's gonna happen when you're on your laptop talking to somebody.

[00:22:40] Anne Morriss:
How do I know if I should be meeting in person?

[00:22:45] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I just always had the position that you can't run virtually for too long, and too long can have different definitions. But in the case of me, basically the initial sales leaders for Stripe across various countries, and I was like, “Guys, look, we're gonna travel to be together once a quarter.” And so one, I wanna set that expectation and, um, that, like being part of this team means we're gonna be together once a quarter.

And for some of you, that's gonna be harder than for others of you. Some of you're driving 40 minutes, and some of you're flying like seven hours, right? Or longer. Asia, you know? And I think they got that it mattered because we had not, we were new. The company was new; we hadn't gelled. But I think you, you know, spending quality time in person means you can run fast when you're apart.

Uh, so I would never let go of that. I think then you just have this slider scale of like, how much friction is it to be in person, and then the stakes just have to be higher. If it's a lot of friction, the stakes are gonna be high.

[BREAK]

[00:24:14] Anne Morriss:
All right. We're gonna do a quick lightning round. Claire, you ready?

[00:24:17] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Yeah.

[00:24:17] Anne Morriss:
Uh, how long should meetings be?

[00:24:20] Claire Hughes Johnson:
The amount of time you need to meet your objective, but definitely don't be conservative about that. Be a little aggressive. So if you think it's gonna take an hour to get to a decision, I would test yourself by trying to do it in 45 minutes.

[00:24:36] Frances Frei:
I love that.

[00:24:36] Anne Morriss:
How much notice do people need for a meeting? Can I send an invitation the day of?

[00:24:42] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I think if it is warranted—i.e. we have new information; it is urgent—people are actually quite forgiving. If it is not warranted, uh, I think you need to give people at least a day's notice, but ideally more than that.

[00:24:57] Anne Morriss:
So for a half-a-day meeting, how much would you prepare for a half-a-day meeting?

[00:25:01] Claire Hughes Johnson:
So, I mean, it sort of depends on the context, but the first thing that popped into my mind is at least half the time. So if it's a four-hour meeting, I probably spend two hours preparing for it.

[00:25:11] Anne Morriss:
How do I gracefully decline a meeting?

[00:25:14] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Basically, you say, uh, “From what I can tell about this meeting, I'm not required for the topic.” Um, you know, I, “If I'm wrong about that, please let me know, but I'm going to decline.” By the way, you don't actually start a dialogue. You can just say, “I'm going, let me know, but my default is no.” And then if they want to come back to you and persuade you, fine.

[00:25:33] Anne Morriss:
Um, if I'm hosting a meeting, Claire, do I need to provide snacks?

[00:25:39] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I think if you are hosting a long meeting and there are humans involved, humans are animals that need energy and no, it's really wise to make sure people get up and stretch.

[00:25:52] Anne Morriss:
I think it's a clean yes.

[00:25:53] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I think it's a yes. I think you've gotta feed the people something because you need them to be productive. You need them to get up and run around the room three times. You need them to eat a snack. You need them to have their bio breaks. But if you're not planning for normal human stuff to happen, you are not planning well.

[00:26:08] Anne Morriss:
Love it. Last question. What's the best way to end a meeting?

[00:26:13] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Well you do a checkout, but first you'd remind everyone about the objective of the meeting. You want people to feel momentum.

[00:26:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:26:19] Claire Hughes Johnson:
You wanna remind them, “Hey, our objective was this, and we did this.” If there's any action items that were generated, you wanna remind people of the action items, ‘cause I like people to know what they own and when they're due.

And then you do wanna make sure, um, if there was a decision, everyone should know what's next. Everyone should know the next steps as you close the meeting. And then, if bonus, you could do a checkout, which is, I like to do like a two-word checkout. As we're ending the meeting, two words for, like, what you're thinking/feeling right now, because it gives you a little quick feedback. A little pulse check.

[00:26:52] Anne Morriss:
Wait, wait. Let's just do it. Uh, Francis quick checkout. Two words. What are you feeling right now?

[00:26:58] Frances Frei:
Um, super happy.

[00:27:04] Anne Morriss:
She's very literal.

[00:27:07] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Anne, what's your checkout? Two, you could have three words if you want. This is a small meeting so we have more time.

[00:27:16] Anne Morriss:
I, I'm really energized. This feels accessible. I'm feeling a little bit of humility at my legacy of poor meeting management that I, I feel like there were, I, I hosted meetings where I wasn't really honoring the potential of the gathering.

[00:27:34] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Remember how I started, Anne? Even I, even I violate the rules of great meetings ‘cause it's so tempting.

[00:27:40] Anne Morriss:
It's impossible to imagine, Claire Hughes Johnson. But two words for you.
[00:27:45] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Really encouraged. Not enough people talk about the tactics, like how you do things that seem basic, but are actually the bulk of what we all do together. And so I'm so glad that Fixable is confronting these topics and I'm so appreciative to, to be invited to talk about meetings.

[00:28:05] Anne Morriss:
Claire, this has selfishly been so much fun for us. Thank you for sharing.

[00:28:09] Claire Hughes Johnson:
Oh, fun for me too.

[00:28:10] Anne Morriss:
So much of yourself and so much of your time.

[00:28:12] Frances Frei:
Uh, any excuse to collaborate with you is just a delight. So thanks for joining us. We really appreciate it.

[00:28:17] Claire Hughes Johnson:
I feel the same way. Thank you for letting me be your first master, and I, I hope you know whatever our next master meeting is, I want in. And I'm happy to help run the meeting.

[00:28:33] Frances Frei:
Thanks, everybody. This is our show, Fixable with Anne and Frances.

[00:28:38] Anne Morriss:
We wanna hear from you too. If you wanna figure out a workplace problem together, send us a message. Email us at fixable@ted.com or call us at 234-fixable. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:28:51] Frances Frei:
We look forward to the next time. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Francis Frei.

[00:29:18] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Jake Gorski is our mix engineer.

[00:29:39] Frances Frei:
We'll be bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week, so please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcast.

[00:29:45] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can please take a second to leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners, particularly when they have nice things to say about us.