Kelli - “How do I deal with a communication breakdown?" (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
This is a segment we like to call Anne and Frances' favorite icebreakers. We do a lot of work with teams and we try to get them to start communicating honestly very quickly. So we think a lot about what are the questions at the beginning of meetings that’s really… create an environment where people can have an honest dialogue. A low-stakes one I often use is “Tell us about a piece of art that means something to you.”

[00:00:26] Frances Frei:
Oh good. I'll tell you the one that moves me the most, and it's a photograph that our dear friend Emmy took when she was visiting us and our oldest son was two or three. On the weekend, we took him to the classrooms at the Harvard Business School, you know, not break into the classrooms.

[00:00:40] Anne Morriss:
Not break in, I mean it's really an overstatement—

[00:00:42] Frances Frei:
But find our way into the classrooms which have just magnificent layers and layers of boards, and we would rearrange the furniture a little bit so that he could stand on it and draw.

[00:00:50] Anne Morriss:
Such a light footprint. Such a—No one ever knew we were there.

[00:00:55] Frances Frei:
No. Um, but there's this one particular picture where he's standing on the desk that's pushed up against it, and he's drawing, and his head is tilted as if he is an experienced artist looking up at the work, like he's appraising it.

But we can only see him from behind. But we can see you and I from the side and we're also joining him in, in the gaze. And so all three of us are sharing a gaze, and I don't know why it's so powerful to me, but it is my favorite piece of art. Um, so thank you Emmy for that, and thanks for letting me think about that.

[00:01:29] Anne Morriss:
Uh, I, I love it too. All right. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach, and I'm here with my wife.

[00:01:39] Frances Frei:
And that would be me. I'm Frances Frei and I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School.

[00:01:43] Anne Morriss:
And you’re listening to Fixable. This is a podcast where we work very hard to fix work problems fast.

[00:01:50] Frances Frei:
And by fast, we mean hopefully in less than 30 minutes.

[00:01:52] Anne Morriss:
That's the goal. Many of our listeners know that this has been a dream of ours for years to have a podcast, an excuse to talk to each other.

[00:02:03] Frances Frei:
It’s a date.

[00:02:05] Anne Morriss:
Once, once a week. I'm so excited to dive in with our first Fixable caller.

[00:02:10] Frances Frei:
Who is she?

[00:02:10] Anne Morriss:
Her name is Kelli. She's a nurse in a cardiovascular acute care unit at a teaching hospital. We won't say which one, but it's a very high-stakes job. Takes a lot of work and a tremendous amount of commitment and generosity.

[00:02:27] Frances Frei:
Oh my goodness. Such important work. Um, do we know what Kelli's calling about?

[00:02:31] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, so Kelli says patient care. It takes a ton of coordination, as you can imagine, between lots of different people and teams, and she's really feeling like the communication among all of these people and teams is really suffering right now.

[00:02:48] Kelli:
I work in a place where you've got doctors, you've got nurses, you've got a whole bunch of people, and sometimes there's really poor communication and it beats to resentment and animosity, and ultimately it comes down to quality of patient care. If the people who are making life-altering decisions for these people are not all on the same page, these people aren't going to receive good care, and it's going to be extremely frustrating. And I just, I wanna know how to help foster an environment that, that can be overcome.

[00:03:24] Frances Frei:
Wow. Patient care. I mean, over the last two years, this is the most important industry on the planet. And so I look forward to diving in and finding out how do we fix communication problems that could have real health outcomes.

[00:03:41] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I mean, communication, it's, it's a universal problem in organizations made more difficult by hierarchies, which we sometimes have to put in place, particularly in environments with high-stakes outcomes. And so I'm super motivated to try to be useful here.

[00:03:57] Frances Frei:
I’m super excited as well.

[BREAK]

[00:04:10] Anne Morriss:
Kelli, thank you so much for doing this with us.

[00:04:13] Kelli:
Of course. Thank you for reaching out to me.

[00:04:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah, we're really, we're really thrilled. We're really thrilled.

[00:04:18] Anne Morriss:
And let me start there with what would make this conversation most useful to you?

[00:04:24] Kelli:
Um, so I work in a unit where lots of the patient population that I have, they're cardiac-specific patients. In the hospital I work at, they are the sickest people I can work with without being in the ICU. So the issue that I really have is that, um, you've got doctors, you've got nurses, you've got nursing assistants, and then, like, x-ray techs and phlebotomists, just all these different teams and everyone needs to work together to be this cohesive group.

But a lot of the time the nurses ended up being the middleman for everybody, and they're trying to manage their own specific things. And really just poor communication is what it comes down to, specifically between nurses and doctors, that leads to poor outcomes ultimately.

[00:05:09] Anne Morriss:
Um, when you think about where communication is breaking down most frequently, is there a specific level, or is it happening at all of these levels?

[00:05:21] Kelli:
Um, I think it happens at all levels. There's also often a disconnect if you have a patient who has different teams consulting, you know, whether that's the heart failure team, and we have a surgical team, and we have an infectious disease team. And all of these people might be consulting on a patient and someone's putting in orders from one team but the team I'm supposed to talk to about this patient specifically, who's managing their care, is not aware of what's going on, if not aware of these orders changing. So communications between those different teams is really important.

[00:05:59] Anne Morriss:
That sounds like a really complicated issue. Can you give us an example of how this shows up?

[00:06:03] Kelli:
I had a patient once who they put in that she couldn't eat anything; she couldn't drink anything, which usually means someone's gonna go for a test, some type of test, some type of procedure. And I went to the doctors and I said, “What are we doing?” And there's one attending I've had who he said, “Um, I have no idea. Let's go talk to the patient together.” Which is a very earth-shattering thing for an attending to do. He has my utmost respect.

So we went and talked to the patient together and found out a whole different team had put in that order, had planned for a test, not communicated that to the patient, and she was very anxious about going for any type of procedure.

And so things like that can really increase a patient's anxiety when there's a doctor somewhere in the hospital putting in orders for this patient and not telling them what it is that they're doing.

[00:06:52] Anne Morriss:
Frances, before we jump into figuring out this problem and how we can make progress, if you were gonna do a summary of what you're hearing as the problem, where does your beautiful operations mind go?

[00:07:05] Frances Frei:
Um, that I, I do think that the diagnosis, that it's a communication problem is right. I would say that part of the communication is transparency. So, why are we doing it? And I think if the patients knew why, if you knew why. So, that's one part of it. Uh, and then the other part of it is the “Let’s make sure when one person says it, we all hear it” right?

So I think there's a breakdown in the number of people that are hearing, and I think there's a breakdown on transparency. And so the question is how to foster communication in a very complicated system where you're not at the top of the hierarchy, but how do you do it from the middle? And I think many more of us face that situation than being at the top of the hierarchy.

[00:07:49] Anne Morriss:
With, with all the, all the decision rights.

[00:07:49] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:07:49] Anne Morriss:
Um, how common, when you think about the problem in the, with that framing, how common is this challenge?

[00:07:59] Frances Frei:
Oh, I, so a phrase that, um, our colleague and friend Amy Edmondson, who studies teams, she uses a word: teaming. And teaming is when a group of people comes together around a patient, but it could be a different group of people around another patient and another.

So it's not like there's an intact team that all covers each one. That’s inherently more complicated. I think anytime there's that level of complexity, this is gonna be at the center of it. It makes me think in fast-moving environments, in tech, for example, when there's fast-moving and we're coming together for this or we're coming together for that, anytime there's a temporary coming together, I think this applies.

[00:08:39] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hm. And I also find myself thinking about hierarchy here. Because hierarchy gives us a lot of comfort in the complexity because, you know, there's, it's clear who outranks who is, is super clear. Uh, but there are very material trade-offs, and one of them is communication unless the systems are impeccable.

[00:09:00] Frances Frei:
Yeah, and I’ll be stunned if hierarchy is part of our solution.

[00:09:04] Anne Morriss:
Alright, Kelli, back to you. So first of all, before we jump in, does, does that summary of the problem resonate to you?

[00:09:11] Kelli:
Yeah. Yes. Yes.

[00:09:13] Anne Morriss:
Okay. There were moments of light and truth and beauty in some of the relationships between doctors and nurses in this system.

[00:09:22] Kelli:
Yes.

[00:09:23] Anne Morriss:
And what's happening with those that are distinct from what's happening with the relationships that aren't working?

[00:09:31] Kelli:
Um, you know, I, I work with my older brother. My older brother and I work on the same unit. We went to nursing school a few years apart, and there's one, uh, physician assistant who I work with who he got wind of that my brother and I work together, and whenever I work a weekend shift with this provider, he's always like, “Are you going to Sunday dinner at your mom's with your brother?”

Like, he just, he wants to get to know who I am as a person, not just sees me as one of the nurses, like he knows me. And whenever I take anything to him and I say, “Hey, I've got this problem with this patient. Their heart rhythm is showing this. We need to get on top of this. We need to give them this medication to get ahead of this before things deteriorate,” he immediately is like, “Yep, I hear what you're saying. Let me go check on the patient, make sure they're okay, and then we're gonna do X, Y, and Z to make sure that they're okay.”

And I think that that has so much strengthened our ability to work together for these patients is that we know each other as people and not just another member of the group.

[00:10:39] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:10:39] Anne Morriss:
Why did this particular relationship have the oxygen for you guys to get to know each other or the space or what happened differently here?

[00:10:49] Kelli:
Um, I think that it’s, uh, partially, you know, a personality thing. And I think also that a lot of the doctors, a lot of the teams, when it comes to, like, sitting down and doing their charting and their computer work, they go back and hide in an office. And he is, he's one who will kind of hang out at the nurse's station and do a lot of his stuff at the nurse's station.

And there's a lot of chit-chat at the nurse's station. That's where we all kind of talk about our days and see how the others are doing and talk about our lives outside of the hospital. And that's where you can learn that, “Oh, these two random nurses who work together and are always hanging out are actually siblings.” Like, I think it's just important to, to have environments where we're able to get to know each other outside of our jobs as healthcare workers.

[00:11:38] Anne Morriss:
So I wanna start there on, in the fixable portion of this conversation, I wanna start in that sandbox, Frances, if that works for you.

[00:11:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yes.

[00:11:46] Anne Morriss:
So, um, one place my head is going is, is there a possibility in this system to not rely wholly on the personality and social competence of the physicians for that moment to happen?

[00:12:03] Kelli:
Right.

[00:12:04] Anne Morriss:
One thing we learned from academia, if I can channel, like, your freshman year, the awkward ice cream social moment—

[00:12:10] Kelli:
Yeah.

[00:12:11] Anne Morris:
Like it, would it be even structurally possible to introduce some kind of formality to, for new doctors, like new providers coming on, new nurses to say, “Okay, here’s what you do in your first week to get to know your colleagues in this system.” You know, we're gonna make the implicit explicit. Instead of going back to your room here, we're gonna tell you what to do. We want you to do this work out here in the open air where this kind of informal and organic get-to-know-you can happen. So let me just get your reaction to that. Is that it is—

[00:12:45] Kelli:
Okay.

[00:12:46] Anne Morriss:
’Cause I'm gonna push on it, I'm gonna push a lot harder if there's any traction there.

[00:12:50] Kelli:
Um, I think, I think absolutely that can make a difference for people to get to know each other that way. Um, that makes much less of a divide.

[00:12:58] Anne Morriss:
Because here's what we see happen all the time, and I'm gonna use my wife who's an introvert—

[00:13:03] Frances Frei:
Total introvert. I'd be back in the, with—no disrespect—I would be back in the office.

[00:13:07] Kelli:
Yes.

[00:13:07] Frances Frei:
With the lights low.

[00:13:08] Kelli:
Yes.

[00:13:09] Frances Frei:
With the lights low. Yeah.

[00:13:10] Anne Morriss:
If no one told you you have to come interact with the humans, your default reaction would be to wander away.

[00:13:17] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:13:17] Anne Morriss:
So now for—

[00:13:21] Frances Frei:
You.

[00:13:21] Anne Morriss:
For me, right? I would be super energized by like—

[00:13:25] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:13:26] Anne Morriss:
Who are my new colleagues? I'm super curious. I wanna get to know them. Uh, you know, I'm going to say I'm more likely to be in option A.

[00:13:32] Frances Frei:
You are definitely.

[00:13:32] Anne Morriss:
Of, of the, of the doctor who finds out sooner or later that you are working with your brother and thinks that's the coolest thing in the world.

[00:13:38] Frances Frei:
I’ll work with you for 30 years and not know it.

[00:13:41] Anne Morriss:
And I'm also more likely to be the human in the system that watches you go to your, like, enclosed little office space, which I don't have, and sit there and do your important work, which you're deciding is more important than mine.

[00:13:54] Frances Frei:
I’m not deciding that.

[00:13:55] Anne Morriss:
Right. I’m more likely to make a negative attribution to that behavior.

[00:13:58] Frances Frei:
You're totally gonna make a negative attribution. In fact, we haven't even done it and you're making a negative attribution to me right now.

[00:14:03] Anne Morriss:
I’m already mad at you.

[00:14:04] Frances Frei:
And I haven't even done anything. I'm not even, I'm not even a physician.

[00:14:08] Anne Morriss:
So the, so there is this category of can we shake up this entry moment and say, “Okay, this is just what we do on this floor”? We're gonna lower the stakes. We're not gonna require approval from the higher-ups. We're just gonna say, this is how things operate on this floor or in this unit, is that the first week you're on the job, you do the following five things: you do your workout here in this open space, you have one-on-one, like, rapid dating meetings with all of the nurses on the team. We're gonna use a different metaphor. You go to lunch. Over the first three months, you, like, go have a cup of coffee with everyone you're working with. Like pick the five things, lower the stakes, don't look for anyone's approval. Stay within the zone of the things you can control, but really go after this variable that you identified that I think is so portent and we see happen all the time of the humans, the flawed, multi-dimensional human beings, having a chance to get to know each other as fellow flawed, multi-dimensional human beings.

[00:15:12] Kelli:
Right. I would so love to see that happen. Um, I feel like the pushback would be that we don't have time for an ice cream social. Um, but I think that if it's going to make communication better between the nurses and the doctors, then I don't think it's that big of a price to pay. Yeah.

[00:15:34] Anne Morriss:
Where I would suggest starting is pick one idea that you think is within the realm of possibility in this system, and brainstorm with two other people who are as frustrated as you are about, you know, what could we do proactively to introduce one element that creates the space and structure where this thing that's so important that we're relying on organically, spontaneously, person, you know, we're relying on the personalities of the physicians, which is random and out of our control. Can we introduce a little bit of, of structure and control into this scenario?

And if you don't have the power to introduce such an idea, figure out who do you think would be your most likely ally in this system, and could you use their power to do something like this?

[00:16:27] Kelli:
Right.

[00:16:31] Frances Frei:
Hold that thought. We'll be right back after this quick break.

[BREAK]

[00:16:43] Frances Frei:
I love the diagnosis that when you're given a great personality in somebody with great social competence, this isn't an issue. Right? So the issue is when the, when the physicians don't have either the personality or, and/or the social competence. So I love the narrowing down there. And what do you do? So what we just heard is something you can do by giving a secret memo to the doctors, like telling the doctors what to do.

I want to look at it from what can you do. So it doesn't require telling someone else, but what might you do? And here's what comes to mind to me. How might you welcome them? So, you know, I mean, a sign. Like, “Welcome—”

[00:17:25] Anne Morriss:
Frances.

[00:17:25] Frances Frei:
“Welcome Frances, on your, you know, first day on the floor. Uh, we're thrilled to have you.” Like, so in, instead of relying on their noticing our humanity, we're gonna notice their humanity.

I love the whole structure, but my mind, and you can say which one is better. My mind is “What can you do with superior personality and social competence?” And this is talking from someone who's on the inferior personality and social competence side. And so, so that’s, that, that would be the only thing I would add to it.

[00:17:59] Anne Morriss:
And my wife loves a good competition, so she's gonna frame this—

[00:18:03] Frances Frei:
I’m gonna wanna know which one you like.

[00:18:04] Anne Morriss:
She’s gonna frame this as an either-or.

[00:18:06] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:18:06] Anne Morriss:
But I think there's a, actually quite a beautiful blend where you're still accomplishing this goal of creating the space for our shared humanity, you're just doing it in this beautiful form where you have total control. This is a nurse-driven initiative and it's really centering and celebrating the, the, the physicians/ And I, I loved your example Frances, and these are small things that I'm hearing you propose, you know.

[00:18:32] Frances Frei:
Totally small, just small bits of welcoming.

[00:18:34] Anne Morriss:
Bits of welcoming, like, “Let me show you around the floor”. Like, you know, making that a meaningful moment, adding a little bit of time and space and joy to that moment. I love that.

[00:18:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah. What’s your reaction to that?

[00:18:49] Kelli:
Um, so one, one interesting thing as I, we've been thinking about this, um, in a teaching hospital other than, like, the attendings and some of the doctors who are just like a little bit below them, the residents and the interns, the one who’s, who I'm really interacting with, they switch out every couple of weeks, if not every week.

Like they'll, I'll get to know 'em and it's like, “Peace out, I'll probably never see you again.” Um, and I have, I have one coworker who I watch her. Every couple weeks, there's a new resident on the service and she goes up and she says, “Hey, this is my name. What's your name? Where'd you go to medical school? Where are you from?”

And I have noticed that she does tend to have better relationships with the doctors because of it. And I think that incorporating that into my own practice, personally, um, would make a big difference for me. And I think the informality of your suggestions, Frances, I feel like that's something I can manage with my social energy

[00:19:52] Frances Frei:
Expertise. Yeah.

[00:19:52] Anne Morriss:
I love that, Kelli, and I just want, for the record, I wanna say that Frances has won this round. She's gonna wanna hear that on the recording. So let's please not edit this out. And what I so love about this as a focus of your energy is you're back in the zone of things that you have total control over.

[00:20:14] Kelli:
Yes. Yeah.

[00:20:15] Anne Morriss:
Which is your own behavior. Now, I am gonna push you to experiment with one or two things that are a little bit outside of your zone of control, because I wanna start firing up the muscles of “How do I start to influence this larger system around me?” That could be as simple as, you know, talking to this colleague of yours and saying, first of all, “I wanna learn from what you're doing. I notice it, I wanna do it.” The other opening that gives you is also, can you have a conversation with this one other colleague about things you might do together to make this practice more infectious?

[00:21:01] Kelli:
Right.

[00:21:02] Anne Morriss:
Kelli, where's your head going?

[00:21:03] Frances Frei:
Yeah, where are you?

[00:21:04] Kelli:
No, I, I—

[00:21:05] Anne Morriss:
Because we got more ideas, we're gonna keep swinging.

[00:21:08] Kelli:
No, I really, I really am liking this. I feel like these are definitely things that I can manage, and I'm grateful to have a manager who I feel like I can take these ideas to him and be like, “Hey, I want to foster a more cohesive environment on this unit. Can't fix the whole hospital, can't fix healthcare. But I feel like at least maybe the cardiology department.”

[00:21:33] Anne Morriss:
Yes.

[00:21:33] Kelli:
We can say, “Let’s, let's make things a little better. We've got a lot of moving parts. These are sick people. This is a little thing we can do to maybe improve things. Worst case scenario, we all get along a little bit better.” Like, maybe it won't affect patient outcomes, but at least it'll maybe coming to work a little less miserable.

[00:21:52] Anne Morriss:
But it might affect patient outcomes.

[00:21:52] Kelli:
Right.

[00:21:54] Anne Morriss:
Which is where we started this conversation, I think is a beautiful frame to bring into this conversation. You have observed a really clear pattern that when there's this kind of connection and trust, patient outcomes improve.

[00:22:08] Kelli:
For sure.

[00:22:08] Anne Morriss:
And some of those really powerful stories that you shared where disconnection and miscommunication got in the way of outstanding outcomes I think are beautiful illustrations of what you're trying to achieve here. I think that's a, it's just a beautiful example and framing for this type of conversation—

[00:22:26] Kelli:
Right.

[00:22:26] Anne Morriss:
—with someone in the system who does have a little bit more power than you do.

[00:22:31] Kelli:
Yes. For sure.

[00:22:33] Anne Morriss:
All right, so how are we doing on the helplessness, powerlessness, we’re gonna restore some agency challenge?

[00:22:42] Kelli:
I, no, I think that going back to work next week, I'll look at things a little differently with the way I approach physicians.

[00:22:47] Anne Morriss:
What's your first move on Monday morning?

[00:22:50] Kelli:
Introduce myself.

[00:22:51] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:22:51] Anne Morriss:
Yes.

[00:22:52] Kelli:
Yeah.

[00:22:54] Anne Morriss:
I love it. I love it. Thank you so much.

[00:22:58] Kelli:
Thank you.

[00:22:58] Frances Frei:
And please keep us posted, Kelli, um, and say hello to your brother.

[00:23:03] Kelli:
I will.

[00:23:11] Anne Morriss:
All right. Frances, what do you think about this larger issue of communication breakdowns in organizations?

[00:23:19] Frances Frei:
So if we use this as an example, part of a communication breakdown is that we didn't give the why, right? So we just didn't give enough transparency. That is, we just gave you the tip of “Do this.”

[00:23:32] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:23:32] Frances Frei:
But we didn't tell you “Do this because of so and so and if this changes, do that.” So the “do this”, putting people into order taking role is actually gonna require your effort all day, every day. It's an exhausting way to do it, but it feels like less time in any given moment. And then the second thing is process was shouting to me throughout this whole conversation. How do we make sure in a teaming context that when one person says something, everyone hears it?

Well, word of mouth is okay, but we are a really advanced species now. Let’s figure out a way and perhaps even a technologically enabled way to do it. So transparency and that everyone gets to hear, it seemed to me to be the two, the two ways there, and a lot of the transparency is the why.

[00:24:23] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I was thinking about where you started your academic career in operations and that the outcomes here where there is reliable miscommunication—

[00:24:32] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:24:33] Anne Morriss:
There's a reliable breakdown in communication, is entirely 100% predictable—

[00:24:36] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:37] Anne Morriss:
—based on the way the system has been designed, and but because of the way it's designed where there's such a scarcity of time and space for the operators within it to actually reflect, this problem is not being surfaced and it's not being dealt with. And the system is relying on the Kelli's of the world to make incremental progress when it's begging for really a top-down solution to meet the, the warriors in the middle who are working, working bottom up.

[00:25:03] Frances Frei:
I love that. Yeah. And, and so if this were the person with a different perspective on this calling in, giving them the fix to that would actually be straightforward. It's, uh, organizations that surface problems at a faster rate improve at a faster rate, full stop. And what's happening here is that problems are getting sublimated.

And what I mean by that is that when problems aren't surfaced, when we push them down, we have no chance of improving. And so we want to elevate problems and en, and enjoy the experience of elevating problems because those problems when surfaced are precisely our improvement opportunities. And the more problems that are surfaced, the faster we improve.

[00:25:43] Anne Morriss:
Amen.

[00:25:44] Frances Frei:
And so it would be super fun to talk to that person. Hopefully, if you're listening, call.

[00:25:54] Anne Morriss:
All right. That's it. That's our show. Thank you all for listening and for being part of this. We wanna hear more stories. We wanna hear from you. We wanna hear your story. Let us take a swing at fixing your problems together. Email us fixable@ted.com or call us at—thank you Frances, for delivering on the phone number—234-fixable. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:26:21] Frances Frei:
We didn't use to have a number that ended in fixable, but that problem was fixable.

[00:26:26] Anne Morriss:
Like so many. Give us a call. Thanks, everyone.

[00:26:32] Frances Frei:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Frances Frei.

[00:26:36] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Ben Chesneau is our mix engineer.

[00:26:59] Frances Frei:
We’ll bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week, so please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and also please leave us a review.

[00:27:08] Anne Morriss:
Particularly if you like the show.

[00:27:10] Frances Frei:
See you soon.