Jai - "How can I build trust with my coworkers?" (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, I'll put this in the form of a question. What's your favorite question to ask our clients?

[00:00:06] Frances Frei:
Oh, that’s the magic dust question. If we had magic dust, and we could sprinkle it on the situation, what would be different, before and after? Uh, and what it does is it has people look up and out and it encourages their ambition.

And so they'll say, they'll give an answer, and then I encourage them to multiply the answer by 10, what we often call adding a zero. So if you had magic dust, what's your absolute best-case scenario for what could happen? And be as ambitious as you dare.

[00:00:36] Anne Morriss:
Can I give you an answer for today?

[00:00:38] Frances Frei:
Yes. What's your w—

[00:00:40] Anne Morriss:
I want us to rock our caller's world. I want them to walk away with a clear plan of action that they didn't even dream was possible.

[00:00:49] Frances Frei:
Ah. Let’s go do it.

[00:00:52] Anne Morriss:
All right. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach, and I'm here with my wife.

[00:00:56] Frances Frei:
And that would be me. I'm Frances Frei, and I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School.

[00:01:00] Anne Morriss:
And this is Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. On Fixable, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, that anything is Fixable, and that solutions are often just one good conversation away.

[00:01:13] Frances Frei:
And who's our caller today?

[00:01:15] Anne Morriss:
Frances, we're gonna call him Jai. It's not his real name. He is an ethics and compliance officer, which is a big job. It's hard to do. Essentially, he's supposed to make sure that the employees and leaders at his company are following the rules, making ethical business decisions, and of course, making sure that nothing they're doing is illegal. But if he gets it wrong, it’s not only a trust issue, it's also potentially a legal issue. And it could mean, you know, faulty products get out in the world. It means there are, uh, you know, compliance issues. It means that potentially there are, are even laws broken.

[00:01:55] Frances Frei:
Let's listen to his voicemail.

[00:01:58] Jai:
Hello Anne and Frances. Uh, this is what I need help with. Uh, as an ethics and compliance officer, uh, I come across leaders who clearly say to all their employees that they have zero tolerance for misconduct, and they wanna make sure that everybody does the right thing at all times.

However, when it comes to a closed-door conversation, uh, in dealing with particularly tricky situations, uh, at times their line of thought and decision making is not always ethical. Now, how do I deal with this authenticity wobble and, uh, hold them accountable?

[00:02:28] Frances Frei:
Whoa. It sounds like Jai has been reading our work.

[00:02:30] Anne Morriss:
Yes. Uh, for listeners who may not be familiar with some of our writing, when Jai used the term “authenticity wobble”, he was referencing our favorite shape, which is the trust triangle. So, Frances, give us a little sense of what, what Jai's talking about.

[00:02:48] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So we have found that, uh, trust has three component parts. Uh, and those three component parts are authenticity, logic, and empathy.

[00:02:56] Anne Morriss:
How do you define each of these things?

[00:02:59] Frances Frei:
So authenticity is “Do you get the sense that it's the real me talking to you?” That what I say matches what I do. For logic, it's “Does my plan make sense?” Like, does it, if, if we were driving, would you let me drive? Like is my plan the right, the right one?

[00:03:17] Anne Morriss:
Got it.

[00:03:17] Frances Frei:
Then the third one is empathy. Am I thinking hard about you? Am I empathetic towards you? So if you experience my authenticity, logic, and empathy, you are more likely to trust me. So what Jai is saying, he is not trusting someone else because their authenticity is wobbling.

[00:03:35] Anne Morriss:
Right. So his diagnosis of a stakeholder in the story, uh, is that they have an authenticity wobble.

[00:03:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:03:34] Anne Morriss:
Which is that their authenticity is getting a little shaky.

[00:03:47] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So I bet there's gonna be more to the story.

[00:03:49] Anne Morriss:
Let's find out.

[00:04:00] Anne Morriss:
Jai, welcome. We're so thrilled that you're here today. So give us a sense of the problem you would like to fix.

[00:04:07] Jai:
So in my role, I come across leadership behaviors. And while the messaging is very clear when it comes to doing the right thing always and having zero tolerance to any sort of misconduct, when we walk into a closed-door conversation in, in tricky business situations, for example, and decide on a disciplinary reaction for a high-performing employee where it is proven misconduct, often the conversation turns around in a very different way. Um, so how do I convey that messages to my leadership colleague in a manner where they understand doing the right thing is not just about rhetoric, it's, it's about putting it into practice?

[00:04:46] Anne Morriss:
Got it. So it's influencing the decisions themselves behind closed doors.

[00:04:51] Jai:
That’s right. That's right.

[00:04:52] Anne Morriss:
So let's start with how to influence decisions in real-time. The stakes are higher than they've ever been. Decisions are harder to make than they've ever been. We have less information. The pace is faster. What have you tried in the past where you were unsatisfied with the outcome?

[00:05:12] Jai:
If you look at a situation where there is a violation, it's very clear, right? Black and white. But often that's not the case. There's always interpretation. There's always data. There's always evidence, which may not always indicate there is a problem. So, um, I, I try to reason it out by asking more questions and letting the other person realize and come out with an answer rather than I telling them, “No, this is not acceptable,” or this is not doable.

At times it's worked. Many a times it hasn't because the individual has just shut their mind off, and they're, they've probably made the decision and they want to hear me agree with them. And many a times I've seen that I agree, and I've seen that it's turned the other way around and then, the other person comes and tells me, oh, “We sh—you know what? We should have listened to you.” So, but that's too late at times in order for us to arrive at, uh, or change the position. I mean, these are what I've tried, but not always succeeded.

[00:06:09] Anne Morriss:
Jai, what's your wobble?

[00:06:11] Jai:
Um, oh, this is a tough one. I think empathy. I’ve been working hard on it, and it's, it's not been easy, and it's not been easy to put into practice every day. Uh, but I've seen the results of that, um, especially with people whom you've worked very closely. So I, I think it's empathy for me. Yeah.

[00:06:32] Anne Morriss:
Can you share with us the last time you felt like you wobbled on empathy in a professional setting?

[00:06:39] Jai:
I think it could be very small. Uh, you know, when, when you have somebody going through a personal situation, it could be, it could be loss of a family member or close one or a loved one, or a, a health situation.

At times, you know, the other individual may not share all the details with you. And then I, I, I suspect, “Oh, this person is hiding something from me, not being genuine and, and maybe want to shirk work or maybe doesn't want to deliver on their promise.”

And then I, I end up pushing the person, and eventually, I'm at, I've, I've lost the person from my team, or, you know, from the company. And that's probably been very painful to learn. Uh, have I fixed that? To some extent, yes, but I'm still on my, I'm still learning.

[00:07:26] Frances Frei:
And your, um, anchor, I'm guessing is logic.

[00:07:28] Jai:
Yeah. Data, logic, facts.

[00:07:31] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:07:31] Jai:
Like an investigator. Always strong.

[00:07:34] Frances Frei:
Jai, me too. We are, uh, we like to refer to, uh, logic anchors and empathy wobblers as builders. I think it's to make me feel better, but the, and, and the watch-out is the collateral damage of other people, which you just described so cleanly.

[00:07:51] Anne Morriss:
So I think I'm the empathy anchor in this conversation. It's two to one right now, so…

[00:07:59] Frances Frei:
Oh, but you guys, you have superpowers.

[00:08:00] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Um.

[00:08:01] Frances Frei:
Empathy anchors are amazing.

[00:08:01] Anne Morriss:
Jai, we're gonna move into getting in the sandbox and saying if the three of us can't come up, uh, with a plan, and I'm gonna start with this empathy piece. The best way to influence people in decisions is, of course, to have high-trust relationships, and it's harder to do when we are removing dimensionality from a person.

So I'm gonna use extreme language, which is not what I think is necessarily happening here, but when we make each other into cartoons, for example, then it's much harder for those relationships to happen. So if we put people in black-and-white categories of good and bad, for example, it's much harder. I think, um, the, the point you started with, which is that for sure there are aspects of your job that are black and white, and that's not the hard part.

The hard part is the gray zones in a fast-moving situation where you don't have complete information, and when the door is totally shut, the fastest way to open it is through empathy. In my experience.

[00:09:15] Jai:
Wow.

[00:09:15] Anne Morriss:
And what I mean by that is leading with, “I understand your situation.”

[00:09:24] Frances Frei:
Wow.

[00:09:24] Anne Morriss:
How are my empathy wobblers doing?

[00:09:27] Frances Frei:
I’m, I think we're both, I speak for both of us. We're taking notes.

[00:09:30] Jai:
Wow. Yeah.

[00:09:31] Frances Frei:
Yeah. We're both looking at each other like, whoa. Yeah.

[00:09:33] Anne Morriss:
And another version of that is to assume very best intentions, because if you walk into that conversation, and you… And I could sniff any version of the story where I'm the villain, and I just don't get it, and I am operating with a value system that is lesser than yours, I am giving you nothing. That door is staying closed, you're not coming through it, and you're not gonna be able to influence my behavior.

[00:10:05] Frances Frei:
Wow. Yeah, I do that all the time. I know it's about Jai. I do it all the time.

[00:10:10] Anne Morriss:
This is why I'm confident in my diagnosis.

[00:10:13] Frances Frei:
Oh, cause you get to see it.

[00:10:14] Anne Morriss:
Because I live with this woman, Jai. Um, Jai reaction just to that?

[00:10:21] Jai:
I, you just opened it in a very, very simple way. I want to know the last point you mentioned. Can you elaborate that a little bit more?

[00:10:27] Anne Morriss:
Yes. I mean, if we go back to our trust triangle, which we love, the most persuasive communication has to, or at its best, is firing on all three of these cylinders: high logic, high authenticity, and high empathy.

So my diagnosis of knocking on this shut door is that you're knocking on the door with very high logic. Of course, you're right. This is the wrong decision, right? Of course, Jai is right, and you're knocking on it with high integrity, high authenticity. But you have to, in those moments where you have sometimes seconds, maybe minutes on a good day to influence the decision, you have to come in firing on all three of those cylinders in order to have an impact.

[00:11:18] Frances Frei:
Which means we have to be deliberate about leading with empathy because the other two come naturally.

[00:11:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, the other two, you're gonna be fine.

[00:11:24] Jai:
That's true. Yeah. Very interesting.

[00:11:27] Anne Morriss:
What you two, Jai and Frances, have to be intentional is the empathy piece. So what does that look like? The fastest path to empathy is inquiry, is really, really pushing yourself to get in touch with your curiosity. You people are leading with judgment. We know the judgment and curiosity can't coexist.

[00:11:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Even when we ask questions, we're not doing it outta curiosity. We're just doing it to lead you to self-realization—

[00:12:00] Anne Morriss:
To the right answer?
[00:12:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And sorry Jai, I didn't mean to just put myself right next to you.

[00:12:05] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:12:05] Frances Frei:
But I, I feel, I feel this.

[00:12:07] Anne Morriss:
We can smell a performative question.

[00:12:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:10] Anne Morriss:
It so really is about authentically getting in touch with that curiosity, which means you have to invite that judgy part of yourself to step aside and show up with genuine curiosity. “Hey Anne, why do you wanna make this decision? How did you reach this conclusion? It's different than where I was going. Help me understand how you got there.”

[00:12:31] Frances Frei:
But with genuine curiosity. Not with lurking judgment.

[00:12:34] Anne Morriss:
Genuine curiosity. And my mother is gonna listen to the podcast. She's gonna be mad, not with bullshit curiosity.

[00:12:42] Frances Frei:
Yeah. She doesn't like when you curse.

[00:12:43] Anne Morriss:
No. Jai, is that helpful?

[00:12:47] Jai:
This is helpful. Very helpful. But at times I feel I don't have the patience. I don't have the, I don't have the patience or the energy because I assume that this person is just trying to break the rule or trying to favor somebody, so I lose patience. And then you end up in a conversation which is very aggressive, um, and then you regret it.

[00:13:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, ‘cause you've already written my story. You've already told me that I'm wrong, and I'm gonna make a wrong decision, and I'm doing it for my own selfish gain. You walked into that story, and you were asking me to play out my version of that script and I'm saying, “No thank you.”

This is where I'm gonna offer some tough love because you need to organize your day and your life in a way where you can walk into those conversations with patience and energy because nothing you're doing matters more.

So instead of having 20 calls that day, like where, how can you free up this space for patience, energy, recovery so that in the moments that really matter, you can show up in the way you want to?

[00:14:01] Jai:
Wow, that sounds brilliant.

[00:14:02] Frances Frei:
It does.

[00:14:03] Jai:
Wow.

[00:14:03] Anne Morriss:
Frances, you taking notes?

[00:14:05] Frances Frei:
I am taking notes. Oh, I'm I, I'm filled with shame right now, but I'm gonna get over it. And I know this is about you, Jai, but I think I'm right so often. That’s what I'm, is what I'm reading and instructing.

[00:14:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:20] Frances Frei:
That’s the problem. And the cost of being wrong only a fraction of those times when I think you're right must be just intolerable on the other end. My favorite Cheryl Wheeler song, and now I'm understanding why is “Frequently Wrong But Never In Doubt.”
And can we role-play?

[00:14:40] Anne Morriss:
Sure.

[00:14:40] Frances Frei:
Can you be Jai?

[00:14:42] Anne Morriss:
Sure. I'll be Jai.

[00:14:44] Frances Frei:
All right. So, and you are going to come into the room and Jai, you're gonna be the senior leader?

[00:14:50] Jai:
Yeah.

[00:14:50] Frances Frei:
All right. So, Anne, uh, you come into the room.

[00:14:54] Anne Morriss:
All right, Jai, you just called me in. Is your breadth this?

[00:14:58] Jai:
Yes.

[00:14:58] Anne Morriss:
Uh, tell me, tell me the problem you're having.

[00:15:01] Jai:
Uh, look, we have this, we have this significantly large deal and the compliance team has come back and said there are some issues with the, the end customer's order because it's come through a channel partner. I know the channel partner personally, and they've been brilliant at their work. They're demanding a little bit of extra commission for it, which I think it's not a big deal. So what do you think about it? I think we should be able to go ahead with this date, right? I don’t think there should be a challenge.

[00:15:27] Anne Morriss:
Tell me what you think the issues are.

[00:15:29] Jai:
Well, honestly, I don't think there is an issue because I think I know the channel partner and it's a, you know, like I said, it's, it's a great deal. I don't see a problem, but, um, but I think the compliance team—

[00:15:42] Anne Morriss:
And, and why’d you call me in?

[00:15:43] Jai:
Uh, I, I just wanted to talk because you're the compliance officer and, um, I think it'll be just good to have you also sign off on this, so, uh, we can make a quick decision right away.

[00:15:53] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:15:53] Jai:
And then I think we should be able to get this audit processed.

[00:15:56] Anne Morriss:
Uh, yeah. Who, who are you, um, concerned about, uh, from a compliance standpoint?

[00:16:02] Jai:
Uh, you know, audits do happen and I, I wanna make sure that we are all fine from paperwork. Uh, I don't want to have an audit finding or somebody ask me questions later.

[00:16:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. What, what kinds of questions are you anticipating?

[00:16:16] Jai:
You know, of course, the auditor's gonna ask: did you follow the process? The channel partner? Uh, you know, did you do background check? Did you, do, you know, the end customer? Et cetera. Now, you know, I don't wanna—

[00:16:28] Anne Morriss:
Did, did, I’m sorry. Did, yeah, did we follow the process?

[00:16:32] Jai:
Uh, yeah, I mean, I think overall I think we are good. Need to make, you know, you know how it is, right? We have to hit our targets. We can't spend 15 days, you know, a month during our, you know, you know our company, right?

It's very bureaucratic. and people don't make fast decisions. And you know, it, it's quarter end. We just have 24 hours to build and ship the product out. So if we can do all the paperwork, uh, even after that, I, I don't think that's a problem. I just want you to just help me with this.

[00:17:00] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Well, Jai, first of all, I, I really appreciate you bringing me in and bringing me in at this time before we actually make a decision, it’s makes my job so much easier, ‘cause I can be a real resource to you as opposed to the cleanup phase where I can’t be that helpful.
Uh, and I, listen, I really get how important speed is in this moment, and I know the pressure you're feeling on targets, but from the little bit of information I have, here's a couple red flags that I'm seeing, is that, um, if we don't do what we say here, if we didn't do it the right way, then that speed that is so important to the business right now, we’re actually gonna lose a ton of speed on the other side when we have to go out and communicate to the world what happened with this deal and why who we say we are is not actually how we're behaving as a company.

So I really feel the speed problem, and what I wanna ask from you is if you can give me an hour, 24 hours, whatever you think this system would tolerate to actually go get some more information about this and come back and give you a real assessment of what I think the risk is from a compliance standpoint. Can I have 24 hours to do my homework and come back and give you a real recommendation here?

[00:18:28] Jai:
Sure. Absolutely.

[00:18:30] Anne Morriss:
That sounds great Jai.

[00:18:32] Frances Frei:
So tell, so first of all, Jai, you were great at roleplaying the leader. You should be on a TV show for that. You got right into that. Um, so what was your, I'd love to hear your, your experience of that.

[00:18:45] Jai:
I was with, I just wanted to get the deal through. I just wanted to succeed and, you know, I wanted all of us to succeed in the organization, and I see process controls all that as bureaucracy, which, you know, does not help me succeed.

[00:19:02] Frances Frei:
And then what was your experience of Anne during that conversation?

[00:19:06] Jai:
So when Anne asked me those questions saying, “Okay, you know, have you gone through this? Have you followed the process?” It made me take a step back and think, “Okay, did I really follow the process?”

Deep down, I knew the answer is a no. But I said, “No, no you don't. You know what, we can do this later. I don't think we need to do it right now. Let's get this through, and we can fix this.”

And then that's when Anne said, “Okay, you might be able to do it with speed now, but the price you pay later could, you know, may not be worth it.” So those are things which helped me realize and, and when she said, “Can you give me 24 hours? Let's get all the facts together, and my job is to give you a professional opinion, and there is a mutual acceptance of that.”

So in that situation, I mean, there are more aggressive leaders who might, you know, push against, saying, “No, no, no, no. We need to take it right now. We need to take it, decide it right now.” But I think standing your ground in a firm manner, but at the same time conveying it in an empathetic, polite manner, does make a big difference.

[00:20:12] Frances Frei:
You know, one thing I noticed in observing the two of you interacting in that, to build on what you said, Jai, is that when Anne, when you were doing it, it wasn't all about you.

So when you were asking that questions, I really got the sense that you were trying to be helpful to the organization and helpful to him, and when my experience, when I have an empathy wobble, is it becomes about me. So I care about, “Oh, well what am I gonna do afterwards? How am I gonna save face afterward?” Like I just become self-distracted. And you were not at all self-distracted. You had the confidence of, the nobility of, being other distracted.

[00:20:51] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I think you'll be much better about playing you than I am, like shocking. But I think the three things I would highlight there is one, one what Frances, what you just said is framing your role in that conversation as being a resource to of service to whoever you're talking to. So immediately that's also defanging.

[00:21:16] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:21:16] Anne Morriss:
Like, it just, it, it brings the tension in the room down. They, they're waiting for you to walk through the door and tell them they can't do things. And there's nothing a CEO hates more than to being told that she can't do something. Right. We hate that. So we're expecting, “Ugh. Jai, the bummer, is about to walk through and tell me. And he does not get it. Jai doesn't get it.”

So the second one is for you to hear me tell you what's important to me so that we no longer, we’ve established. Now you get it. You have heard it. But then the other judo you can play there is to then frame your view of the risks in the metrics that I've just articulated are important to me. “Oh, you care about time. Here's my concern. If we get this wrong, we're gonna add a whole bunch of time. Oh, you care about hitting the numbers. If we get this wrong, not only are we not hitting the numbers, but like, the firm does not exist.”

And then the third point is to be really clear about your objective. And Frances, this is, also might resonate with you, is your objective in that moment, in that particular conversation is not to change the decision. Your objective is to buy time.

[00:22:24] Frances Frei:
Wow.

[00:22:24] Anne Morriss:
And slow down the process.

[00:22:26] Jai:
Wow. Yeah.

[00:22:26] Anne Morriss:
So that there is space for, potentially, another decision.

[00:22:32] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:33] Anne Morriss:
Because in that moment there's no other decision, and we’re, like, running to the finish line of the deal.

[00:22:40] Frances Frei:
And what I love is that your, your space was between one and 24 hours.

[00:22:43] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And you don't, I don't, I don't know, you know what's realistic, but ask for what is realistic.

[00:22:48] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:48] Anne Morriss:
Give 24 hours.

[00:22:49] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:49] Anne Morriss:
Gimme 45 minutes.

[00:22:51] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:52] Anne Morriss:
And then make the three phone calls you need to make to find out, like, how bad is it? Because the, the CEO wants to get the deal done is not a credible messenger. My god. I’ve been the CEO who wants to get the deal done. We are not credible in that moment. It's fine Jai. It's fine. It's totally fine.

[00:23:08] Frances Frei:
That was really good. So it's framing as service.

[00:23:11] Jai:
Absolutely.

[00:23:12] Frances Frei:
Um, I get to do the judo of whatever you say is important. I'm gonna frame the solution as accomplishing that objective and by time, don’t try to change the decision. That's so good. This is about Jai, not me, but I'd like to call in a couple times to this podcast. I got some things you could work on.

[00:23:31] Jai:
This is very helpful.

[00:23:33] Anne Morriss:
So we have to ask, what is your first next move?

[00:23:38] Jai:
Well, I would. I, I want to say that I will want to walk into a controversial or a, or a difficult situation, or rather create one—

[00:23:46] Frances Frei:
Seek controversy.

[00:23:49] Jai:
Create a situation where I can, I can put myself and practice what I've just learned. Uh, but no, I definitely want to build these in smaller conversations. I think it's also about, not waiting to that, uh, the Armageddon. Right? And it's not about the D-Day; you can build that much ahead so that the person knows, “Okay, this is what, when Jai comes and he's gonna ask, this is what his approach is gonna be. So let's make sure that, you know, we have a mature conversation.”

So I think that's what is important. I think you, you could brilliantly, when you said that, make sure you have the energy, and you plan your day in a manner where you can give your best, and that can happen anytime during the day. Thank you so much.

[00:24:46] Anne Morriss:
Sweetness. Deep thoughts. Well, that fan and Frances—

[00:24:50] Frances Frei:
That really took a different turn. I thought we were gonna be navigating, you know, what do you do when it seems black and white and it's really great, and I came outta left field for this empathy wobbler that it was all about empathy.

Um, and, but I just think so many of us out there, I mean, in all of our research, empathy wobblers are the highest volume of people in any organization, particularly as you get near the top and then realizing that a lot of it is about prep, that it's possible and doable. And the mindset part is what's really like, uh, like you weren't asking questions that you knew the answer to, um, is a really beautiful empathy anchor trick. And then whatever was important to them, you were gonna deal with it on their terms. So…

[00:25:40] Anne Morriss:
Because asking questions where you already know the answer does not—

[00:25:42] Frances Frei:
It makes us insufferable.

[00:25:42] Anne Morriss:
Does not, does not help.

[00:25:45] Frances Frei:
No. It's insufferable.

[00:25:46] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:25:56] Frances Frei:
You know what I look forward to, uh, for all the Jais in the world, the Jais and Franceses, is that, you know, when we knock on the door, people have to take a deep breath. But when you knock on the door, people are psyched. If we lead with empathy, people will be psyched when we show up, and it’s, uh, kind of a cool thing.

[00:26:03] Anne Morriss:
Now, the risk for me is I'm more, I’m, my risk is over-identifying with the perspective of who's ever on the other side of the door. So that's what I have to look out for.

[00:26:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:26:14] Anne Morriss:
One of the things we, we actually see that is, I'm curious what you think of this because you've been involved in a lot of these discussions about corporate values or organizational values. In my experience, it can be really helpful to go through that exercise. In the absence of a crisis, you know, what do we care most about as an organization so that those values can then be used to help navigate some of the gray?

Now it can, the values conversation can also be performative, I think. Enron famously had, you know—

[00:26:44] Frances Frei:
Beautiful values.

[00:26:45] Anne Morriss:
—etched on the lobby wall: integrity, you know; uh, communication; respect. You know, I used to have a, a, just to remind me of this, I used to have a little, uh, Enron values cube, um, on my desk. So it can, they can be useless, but they can be really helpful, uh, when they're, when they're really invested in as a real conversation with the organization, ‘cause we can dust them off and say, “Okay. We built this organization to stand for integrity and so what is an organization that stands for integrity going to do in this situation?” And I think it can be a helpful, true North.

[00:27:23] Frances Frei:
That was beautiful, and it was a really beautiful lesson. I know I took a lot from it, and I hope our listeners took a lot from it.

Thanks for listening, everybody. You can email us at fixable#ted.com. That's F-I-X-A-B-L-E @ ted.com, or give us a call at 234-fixable. That's 234-349-2253.

Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Frances Frei.

[00:27:57] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Ben Chesneau is our mix engineer.

[00:28:18] Frances Frei:
And one more thing, if you can, please take a second to leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners. See you soon.