Fixable
How to stop a bully (w/ Master Fixer Amy Cuddy) - Part 2
April 15, 2024
[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hello and welcome back to Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and a leadership coach.
[00:00:12] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Anne's wife.
[00:00:15] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and good solutions are often just a single conversation away.
Today, we are back with part two of our conversation on workplace bullying with our master fixer, Amy Cuddy.
[00:00:30] Frances Frei:
I am so excited to share the rest of this conversation.
[00:00:33] Anne Morriss:
If you haven't heard part one, please, we encourage you to go back and listen to that first episode. It has some great insights from Amy's incredible research about what bullying is, how it escalates, and how to spot it in your own organization.
[00:00:47] Frances Frei:
It's super valuable. This is such a complicated issue, and being able to address it starts with being able to recognize it for what it is. Personally, I learned how to see through Amy's lens on bullying, and it totally changed my perception. So, definitely go back and start there if you haven't already listened.
[00:01:05] Anne Morriss:
Today we are continuing the conversation and getting into next steps. You've identified workplace bullying. Now, what can you do about it which is really the question we always try to ask on this show. How do we fix this?
[00:01:19] Frances Frei:
Oh, let's go.
[00:03:07] Anne Morriss:
I wanna start with your language of bystanders and bravehearts.
[00:03:12] Amy Cuddy:
Yeah.
[00:03:13] Anne Morriss:
Is the thing that I find hope in, in your work around this is all of the power that the people around the target have in these scenarios.
[00:03:26] Amy Cuddy:
So much power. I mean, and, and, and you know, there's so many mechanisms that lead them to not help, right?
That, first of all, they see that the norm seems to be that it's okay to bully that person. So, I guess I am gonna do what everyone else does 'cause we know how influenced we are by norms. There's also the virtue signaling. You know, I need to be on the right side. There's fear. I don't wanna stand up to this person.
There's also just like….
[00:03:48] Anne Morriss:
What if it happens to me? What if I'm next?
[00:03:49] Amy Cuddy:
Oh, absolutely. And, people are also kind of exhausted.
[00:03:52] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:03:53] Amy Cuddy:
…by it. There are a lot of reasons. So, every person has been a bystander. Many of us have been targets.
[00:04:00] Anne Morriss:
And, by bystander we, we just, we observe some…
[00:04:02] Amy Cuddy:
We observe something in, in, in a world that, where we are sort of relevant.
[00:04:07] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:04:07] Amy Cuddy:
Where we, we have some agency. Where we have some opportunity to step in and don't.
[00:04:13] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:04:14] Amy Cuddy:
So, we've all been bystanders, many of us have been targets.
[00:04:17] Anne Morriss:
Some of us have been bullies, presumably.
[00:04:18] Amy Cuddy:
Yes, but very few, and, and I, I, I like to get the focus off of the bullies because I don't have a lot of hope, at least, I'm not gonna be the one that's changing the bullies.
[00:04:29] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:04:29] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:04:30] Amy Cuddy:
Look, if some clinical psychologists wanna take that on, they can take that on.
[00:04:33] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:04:33] Amy Cuddy:
That's not the thing I'm gonna be doing because again, a lone bully is impotent. To me, it's all about the bystanders. It's all about the bystanders not giving that person voice. And, so I think bystanders, yes, they can become accessory bullies or passive bystanders and passive bystanders do a lot of harm by doing nothing, because that in itself is a norm, is establishing a norm. But, you can also become a brave heart. And I mean…
[00:05:00] Anne Morriss:
And, what's the term brave heart, Amy?
[00:05:01] Amy Cuddy:
I use the term braveheart instead of just, sort of, you know, a courageous person or a hero, because I really feel like it takes, um, it takes an extra, you know, dose of like heart and soul and spirit. I mean, something that I can't quite as a scientist, fully capture. It takes a, a person who has a real kind of internal alignment to be able to put themselves out there because what they're doing is what I call social bravery. And, social bravery is standing up for people.
[00:05:36] Anne Morriss:
It's the hardest kind.
[00:05:37] Amy Cuddy:
Exactly, who are being, you know, um, harassed, who are being bullied, who are being targets of racism, any other form of prejudice, and it is not glorious. Right? It's not the same as running into a burning building to save a baby. And, I, not saying that that's not great, but that person is instantly a hero.
[00:05:56] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:05:56] Amy Cuddy:
People who are socially brave, not only, often aren't in any way rewarded, but they're punished for doing that.
[00:06:04] Anne Morriss:
Will you give us some examples? So, the way bravehearts have sh-shown up in your research?
[00:06:09] Amy Cuddy:
Yeah. Well, so I'm gonna give you some small examples because there are so many things that could be done early on during the bully test period that would just stop it from happening, period. And, a lot of these things are not about confronting the bully, it's about switching the norm to something positive. So, for, let me give you an online example. Somebody might be targeted and there's a pile on and people are just writing nasty things for no reason about their work.
And, then one person says, “Hey.” Just in the same thread. “I wanted to thank you for this thing that you did. It you, you really, um, it meant a lot to me and I learned a lot from you.” They say something positive about the person who's being targeted. They say nothing to the bully or about the attacks and I think that, that is great.
'Cause what do the trolls do in that case? They have nothing to engage with.
[00:07:07] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:07:08] Amy Cuddy:
Really.
[00:07:08] Anne Morriss:
And, in, in that situation, then I'm signaling you're trying, you know, this, the bully's trying to erode someone's status. And, I'm standing up and saying, this person has status to me.
[00:07:17] Amy Cuddy:
Exactly. Status and respect.
[00:07:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:07:19] Amy Cuddy:
And, so I've seen that happen. So, there, there are a lot of pop stars who have these, these very loyal fans and a woman who was a music critic and had an internship at a, a Canadian music magazine had tweeted something about this particular artist's new album. It was not especially inflammatory. It wasn't inflammatory.
She was just saying, I'm, kind of, ready for this person to make more grownup music. Like, I'm ready for her to, to evolve. And, the fans of that person, they just went after her immediately. They went after her kid. They were telling her to kill herself. They called her employer and the artist herself wrote horrible DMs to her.
Um, I mean, her child was four years old. By the end of the day, she was fired from her job. But, a couple days later, somebody started a hashtag, I stand with the person who was being targeted, right? They didn't insult the artist. They didn't insult the people attacking her. They said things like, hey, I love that piece you wrote on such and such.
It really taught me, a, a bit about writing. Or, I love how you have run your professional life as a single mom. I'm really inspired by you. And, it turned things around. So, they changed the norm from trash to…
[00:08:49] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:08:49] Amy Cuddy:
…these kind of beautiful sentiments.
[00:08:50] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:08:50] Amy Cuddy:
And, more and more people felt like, as more people do it, it becomes much easier. And, then you're not even really having to take any risks at all, you know? Yes. It's, it's social bravery, but it's much easier when 10 people have done it before you.
[00:09:04] Anne Morriss:
Right. And, I, I can, I can see how the, that horrific arc you just described, how acts like that, even small ones, can, can slow it down…
[00:09:15] Amy Cuddy:
Yes.
[00:09:15] Anne Morriss:
…first of all. And, then with enough momentum can stop it.
[00:09:18] Amy Cuddy:
Exactly. So, those are simple braveheart things that you can do.
[00:09:22] Anne Morriss:
That observation about the power of the group is so powerful.
[00:09:28] Frances Frei:
It's astounding to me my, my experience not being bullied, but being near people who are bullied. And, you lent me your lens, right?
You shared with me your glasses and it was a total wake up call for me. And, since I've been wearing that prescription, I can't believe how, two things, one, how often it's there, and two, how it's in plain sight. And, I used to walk past it, not knowing it, and now I see it. Like, as you've been talking, I've been writing down notes of the various examples that I know, and it is like to the morsel, to the morsel, to the morsel of what's true, the rhythmic pattern of it.
The other part that, as you've been talking, what I'm realizing is that there's these lone bullies are impotent, but I am now starting to get alarmed at the roles institutions play in not only enabling bullies, but in being bullies.
[00:10:28] Amy Cuddy:
I know.
[00:10:29] Frances Frei:
And, so that's like a whole new thing that when I write down according to this and the, the shaming, the isolating, like the literally encouraging you not to talk to them.
If you do talk to them, the administration will stop talking to you.
[00:10:43] Amy Cuddy:
Yes.
[00:10:43] Frances Frei:
Like it's, it's everything you've said. Once you put on this lens, it's, incredible how it happens exactly this way and the enrolling of those of us that can be near it. And, what are, for some of us, what are the small acts for others of us, if we have more of an appetite, what are the large acts? I agree with your diagnosis that that's the way for us to make a big step forward.
[00:11:13] Amy Cuddy:
Yes. And, thank you for sharing that. And, and yes, institutions are bullies. Not, not only do they lay the groundwork for bullies, but some of them are themselves bullies.
And, and, um, as a, as a psychologist who looks at sort of the individual level of analysis, I don't get into that too much in the book. Um, but I do, I do want to make a strong appeal to leaders that your role is remarkably important, and you have the power to improve the quality of not just the lives of people who work there to save people from this horror.
[00:11:50] Frances Frei:
And, you might be unintentionally exacerbating it.
I mean, I think that the, the thing about this rhythmic nature means that our instincts will make us follow exactly the same path as everyone else. So, we need some learned behaviors to get away from these instincts. And, I'm watching leaders of institutions following their instincts and doing 180 degrees, the wrong thing.
[00:12:13] Amy Cuddy:
I know.
[00:12:14] Frances Frei:
They end up being contributors. We have to teach people the learned behaviors of what to do instead.
[00:12:19] Amy Cuddy:
So, I think, um, one thing, and I wanna start with reminding people that in order to help, you need to know that something's really wrong and that you have a responsibility and some agency.
And, so I go back to the, the early social psychology model of bystander intervention. So, when do people help in an emergency situation? And, those that work generally had focused on physical emergencies, somebody's sick, somebody's being hurt, and so, the question was, why do bystanders see this stuff happen and not do anything?
And, the model of bystander intervention has five steps. And, the first is that you have to notice that something's happening, right? Something is amiss. It's like when you're in a restaurant and you hear raised voices and you look and you're like, oh, something's happening over there.
[00:13:12] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:13:13] Amy Cuddy:
People are doing that.
They're noticing that something's in this, but the second part is identifying it, categorizing it, recognizing it as an emergency. And, I want people to understand these stages so that they can recognize it as an emergency and not go, oh, that part wasn't a big deal. Those things that seem like not a big deal quickly become a massive deal very quickly.
Your silence allows them to become a massive deal. So, recognize what it is. Part of what, what's so important about this work is just that. No one's really explained that to us, so we don't know what it is. So, learn to see it and then inoculate yourselves against the bullies. Be careful when you are sharing the information that they've shared.
You know, make, do, pay extra attention. Fact check that stuff. Why share it if you don't know it to be true? Question it if you're, if you don't feel that it's well sourced. Um, so I think all of those things are really important to not letting the train get a lot of, sort of, momentum.
[00:14:18] Anne Morriss:
Right. So, the second step, know how to identify a bullying situation.
It sounds like this would be a moment to check ourselves, to check what the bully is doing before reacting.
[00:14:28] Amy Cuddy:
Yep. So, then after that is taking responsibility. That's the third. You know, assuming some responsibility. And, look, if you take responsibility and do something, it's less likely to happen to you. I mean, it really, like when we stop these things from happening, they're just le less likely to proliferate, period.
Right? So, you're contributing to a culture where this doesn't happen. The fourth is to figure out how to help. And, I think you can't figure out how to help until you really understand what's happening. And, then the fifth step is deciding to help. Right? So, but I just think it's interesting when you look at that bystander model of intervention.
I think people often gloss over, see that something's happening, recognize that it's an emergency. That is important. You know, somebody might not be lying on the ground bleeding. It is still, I promise you, it is an emergency. It is an existential threat and somebody needs to help that person.
[00:15:27] Anne Morriss:
Can, can I ask about that? Cause I wanna go back to Frances’s point about learned behavior.
[00:15:31] Amy Cuddy:
Yep.
[00:15:32] Anne Morriss:
Because in, in these situations where I am a bystander, potentially to be recruited, how do I overcome my own level of existential fear in that moment? Oh, what if I'm next? What if I'm gonna be a target?
[00:15:51] Amy Cuddy:
One thing that I am hoping to encourage people to do is to build kind of braveheart circles.
So, these don't have to be your closest friends, but they're people who, like you, don't want to see bullying. Right? So, that you can activate that, kind of, it's like a little network when somebody is being bullied. So, it's not just you who is being socially brave and maybe making a positive comment about them or questioning an accusation about them, but it's seven other people doing it as well, so you know that you're not gonna be alone.
[00:16:26] Anne Morriss:
Nice.
[00:16:26] Amy Cuddy:
And that, that…
[00:16:27] Anne Morriss:
Nice.
[00:16:27] Amy Cuddy:
…will make it so much easier because it's usually, you know, something like between like four and seven people who are really the, you know, like the, the, the, the primary bully and the accessory bullies. So, if you get that many people who are acting as bravehearts and stepping in, there, you have a good chance of derailing that bullying.
So, I think that you have to be ready in advance and say, like, you know, activate braveheart superpowers. And, so again, if it's online, then seven people are writing something nice, a nice comment.
[00:17:04] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Right.
[00:17:04] Amy Cuddy:
Seven different comments.
[00:17:05] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:17:08] Amy Cuddy:
That's really powerful, or, are questioning an accusation.
[00:17:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:17:13] Frances Frei:
Let me test something I might do now versus that I didn't do in the past to see if it passes, which is that when somebody comes and gives me private information that I then didn't fact check to your point, I just took it surprised, but just accepted it, um, that I wouldn't just fix it privately, one on one.
But, when I was in a group setting, I would try to be like, you know, when you came to me and talked to me privately, I would say this in a group saying, when you came and talked to me privately, it turns out, I'm not sure if you've done that with others in the room here.
I've learned that it's this, not that. And, it's probably useful for us. So…
[00:17:52] Amy Cuddy:
I think that's a great example.
[00:17:53] Frances Frei:
Okay.
[00:17:53] Amy Cuddy:
I love that. And, I think that that is something that can happen, you know, in, in, in…
[00:17:59] Frances Frei:
Because I don’t like the shadows. I don't like all of the darkness with which this happens.
[00:18:03] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:18:03] Amy Cuddy:
And, there will be, right.
There are so many backroom conversations…
[00:18:06] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:18:06] Amy Cuddy:
…that are going on. So, I really like that.
[00:18:08] Frances Frei:
Okay.
[00:18:08] Amy Cuddy:
And, bullying the bully does not work. I'll tell you that. We're just poisoning the well even more.
[00:18:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:18:14] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:18:14] Amy Cuddy:
And, encouraging, more bullying. And, I see way too much of the bullying the bully, I, and it makes me sad because you really don't have a leg to stand on when you're doing the exact same thing that you're criticizing.
[00:18:24] Frances Frei:
Right. Yeah.
[00:18:25] Anne Morriss:
Can I go back to your appeal to leaders, which is, I…
[00:18:27] Amy Cuddy:
Yeah.
[00:18:27] Anne Morriss:
…I think it really important part of this conversation. One question that we have for you, Amy, is what can leaders do to reduce the instance of bullying and ideally eradicate it from their organizations? What can they do structurally? What can they do culturally?
Um, at our son's school, they eliminated the lunchroom, which is where they knew bullying was most likely to happen in elementary schools.
[00:18:54] Amy Cuddy:
That lunchroom.
[00:18:55] Anne Morriss:
Everyone just ate in their classrooms. Uh, and it was a community building opportunity for the class. They widened the hallways and they made sure that more adults were present during transition periods.
[00:19:09] Amy Cuddy:
That's really good.
[00:19:10] Anne Morriss:
And, so they just eliminated the conditions where bullying was most likely to happen. So, what's the corporate equivalent of those kinds of changes in your experience?
[00:19:20] Amy Cuddy:
I mean, one, and I know this seems simple, on the first day, a leader has got to say that one of their core principles is no bullying.
[00:19:32] Anne Morriss:
Just name it.
[00:19:33] Amy Cuddy:
Yeah. Right off the bat. Naming it is really important. Explaining what it is, because sometimes I think people might throw the word out there and not define it. I mean there are a lot of these terms that just are sort of have been hackneyed and people don't understand what they mean and, but they have to be very clear about what it is and why they don't stand for it.
And, I think explaining the cost to the organization is important and there are a lot of costs, right? Creativity, productivity are dramatically reduced. People don't come into work, they don't engage, they don't share information. They're more likely to make huge mistakes because they're not sharing information 'cause they're afraid to look dumb.
They're afraid to ask for help. And, then what, what happens is the bully who is seen as a, a talented asshole…
[00:20:20] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:20:21] Amy Cuddy:
…their potential contributions are prioritized over everyone else's potential co-contributions. So, you lose the contributions of the target for sure. And, of a lot of people who quietly watched in fear, you lose all of their potential contributions.
So, I think explaining that bullying is not just about protecting one person, it is about protecting the quality of work of the people who work there.
[00:20:43] Anne Morriss:
The entire organization.
[00:20:43] Amy Cuddy:
The entire, entire. I mean…
[00:20:45] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:20:45] Amy Cuddy:
It clearly affects the bottom line.
[00:20:46] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:20:47] Amy Cuddy:
I hate to make the business case, but, there is the business case.
[00:20:50] Anne Morriss:
Yep.
[00:20:50] Amy Cuddy:
It will affect everyone's pride in their work.
When they know that they're working in an organization with a lot of bullying, they are much less likely to stay at that job. They don't encourage other people to come to, to, to work there. They feel less loyal. Um, they're just less engaged. So, I think it's important for leaders to recognize and explain these are the outcomes.
You know, we're not just protecting the baby bird with the broken wing.
[00:21:17] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:21:17] Amy Cuddy:
We're protecting all of us.
[00:21:19] Anne Morriss:
Okay.
[00:21:19] Amy Cuddy:
And, our ability to be our best.
[00:21:21] Anne Morriss:
So, I'm a leader. I've stood up, I've said, no bullying can happen here, and how do I walk the talk then?
[00:21:27] Amy Cuddy:
So, I worked with an organization that had two founders, and one of the founders was the more public facing person, very charismatic, you know, kind of a storyteller.
The other one was quieter. He was more of the behind the scenes person, very likable, very down to earth. A couple of years ago, a bunch of senior women at that organization got together and came to the quieter founder and said, the other founder is an absolute bully, and they had documented a lot of things that had happened.
These were like remarkably accomplished, successful people, and the bullying was pretty profound. He did launch an investigation. But, he moved fast and that person was removed. He then apologized. He very clearly explained that he understood what happened, um, that he was very sorry to have missed it, that he now knows what to look for.
And, he is doing repairs with the people who were hurt. He also understands that some people are gonna leave anyway, and he will be very supportive of them in whatever they choose to do next because they are so hurt by what happened. He's just offering them a lot of opportunities to share their stories with each other if they feel safe doing so. You know, he's still trying to figure out how to implement more systematic changes. He's kind of doing it as he goes, but he's taken responsibility. He has named the problem, and I mean even that, that it was a big deal to get rid of this person. It was not a popular.
[00:23:16] Anne Morriss:
Oh yeah. I'm sure.
[00:23:17] Amy Cuddy:
It was not a popular decision with a lot of outsiders who didn't see that side of that person.
And, he also did it in a way that really protected the people who had been bullied from the people in the organization who hadn't seen it happen. He clearly backed them. And, I think that mattered, right?
[00:23:37] Anne Morriss:
I mean, I think that's a really powerful example of, of kind of the principles, like be clear from the beginning and then take action quickly and make sure that the targets are okay.
[00:23:47] Amy Cuddy:
Yeah. So, another thing I would say is leaders do not put this all on HR. HR is not very good at helping in these situations, but it's not because they have bad intentions, it's because they don't have the information.
[00:24:03] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:24:03] Amy Cuddy:
And, so it's happening in these departments and then it comes to them, like I said, six months later, and it's just a sketch, a thumbnail sketch of what happened.
And, the bully already has more power than the target and the target's been silenced and is now seeming, you know, crazy.
[00:24:18] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:24:19] Amy Cuddy:
So, reports of bullying increased through the pandemic. People became much more, sort of, sensitive to, in a good way, toxic workplace conditions and more likely to report it. But, it would go to, to the leader, and the leader would just send it to HR.
And, these HR people were just feeling absolutely…
[00:24:39] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:24:40] Amy Cuddy:
…beaten down by this because how do they get to the, they're also not really investigators.
[00:24:44] Frances Frei:
No, it has to be done in line. It can't be done offline in HR.
[00:24:49] Amy Cuddy:
Right. So I think like department heads…
[00:24:51] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:24:52] Amy Cuddy:
…that it really matters. They see what happens.
[00:24:55] Frances Frei:
Right. Yeah.
[00:24:55] Amy Cuddy:
They saw the whole thing unfold.
Don't hand it off to somebody else who you know…
[00:24:59] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:24:59] Amy Cuddy:
…does not know what happened. That is really important. You know, in, in the bystander intervention model, that is assuming responsibility. You know that you have a responsibility to try to handle it before it goes to HR, but if it goes to HR, you go there with all of the information, honestly.
[00:25:18] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:25:18] Amy Cuddy:
Because that just almost never works out well.
[00:25:20] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
Yeah. That, that completely resonates. It seems to me that there isn't logical implication that awareness can make a big difference here.
[00:25:32] Amy Cuddy:
It, it's a huge part. Everyone feels sort of manipulated and a little bit gaslit. So, I mean, the bystanders do too.
[00:25:40] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:25:40] Amy Cuddy:
A lot of 'em don't really know what's happening.
[00:25:43] Anne Morriss:
Right.
[00:25:43] Amy Cuddy:
And, so it, it's absolutely important.
[00:25:45] Anne Morriss:
And, it feels dis, this, this situation feels disorienting to everyone, which makes it hard to act from a position of strength.
[00:25:52] Amy Cuddy:
Exactly.
[00:25:52] Anne Morriss:
You don't have the full story, you're hearing different things. You're trying to piece it together.
[00:25:56] Amy Cuddy:
Exactly.
[00:25:57] Anne Morriss:
Uh, are, are you yourself exposed if you somehow get involved here?
[00:26:00] Amy Cuddy:
Yes. One thing I didn't say that I want to say is that bullying destroys relationships.
[00:26:07] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:26:07] Amy Cuddy:
So, there are two things. It destroys relationships like not just between the target and other people, but just within the whole community.
[00:26:13] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:26:13] Frances Frei:
Yeah.
[00:26:14] Amy Cuddy:
So, now you don't have the sharing of, of support and information, but it also, um, is disempowering. And, I do feel like we're in an era of people feeling relatively powerless because of all the flux that we're dealing with in the world.
[00:26:29] Anne Morriss:
Yep.
[00:26:30] Amy Cuddy:
I mean, we literally did lose some control over our lives during the pandemic.
And, now, um, people, I do feel less trusting and they feel more powerless. And, we know, I mean, power and powerlessness, like that's right in there in the center of what I study. When people feel powerless, it activates the inhibition system. So, they are more likely to see others as potential predators, not allies.
They see challenges not as opportunities, but as threats. They are more pessimistic, they're less creative. They are much less likely to share information. They are inhibited and they do not act. So, we are in a, kind of, collective state of powerlessness and I think that leaders re-empowering people is so important.
And, I'm talking about personal power, giving people agency, giving people voice. That is gonna help enormously when people have a sense of agency. And, in fact, there are studies on workplace bullying that show that the best predictor of who steps in is the feeling of power. So, people who have a feeling of power are just much more likely to step in and do something, do anything.
[00:27:41] Anne Morriss:
Is there anything else you wanna share with our listeners?
[00:27:45] Amy Cuddy:
I just can't underscore how much power we have to change it. It's, it's, it's like one of the few things that's a massive problem where I'm like, we can just turn this around and how many other problems will be ameliorated by that?
Right, it, it, it's going to fix so many other things. When people feel safe, sharing information, being themselves, everything gets better. So, I just can't adequately underscore how important this is.
[00:28:14] Anne Morriss:
Thank you so much.
[00:28:16] Amy Cuddy:
Thank you for having me.
[00:28:17] Frances Frei:
Thank you, Amy Cuddy.
[00:29:06] Anne Morriss:
All right, Frances, what a powerful conversation.
[00:29:09] Frances Frei:
It was
so powerful.
[00:29:12] Anne Morriss:
Um, here's what I find myself thinking about. I'm curious where, where your head is, uh. One is that the blast radius of these incidents are much bigger than I realized, and it does line up with my own observations that relationships that seemingly have no direct relationship with the bully or the target per se, also get frayed like the, the kind of the hit to the culture of the environments where these things occur is, is really profound.
[00:29:55] Frances Frei:
It's so important, and I really like your phrase, the blast radius because when, when a, when bullies are permitted to exist, it will profoundly affect the organization. So, not only is like allowing bullying, it's like not a good idea, just in general, it's a terrible idea for an organization because you'll be trying to repair that organization for years to come because that's how many relationships are going to get damaged.
[00:30:22] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:30:22] Frances Frei:
Where I found myself going at the end of the conversation was the accessory bullies. So, bullies need other bullies, and then they co-opt people who would never think they were co-opted and would never think they are bullying, and they are indeed carrying out the work of the bully.
So, the, the people that are doing the things and getting encouragement and then encouraging each other, I, I can now see them in plain sight. All of the people who are the accessory bullies going on. And, when we asked Amy like, how do you know you're being bullied, um, I think the answer of, because your power is draining. And, how do you know you're a bully? Your power is gaining. So, there's no such thing.
[00:31:16] Anne Morriss:
By design.
[00:31:16] Frances Frei:
By design.
[00:31:17] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.
[00:31:18] Frances Frei:
So, when, when bullies falsely accused that they're being bullied and I do think it's a false accusation, I think it happens all the time, a quick litmus test is has your power been gaining or draining?
And, if your power has been gaining, you haven't been bullied. But, to me, the accessory bullies are the ones that I am just gonna be thinking about. One is, oh my gosh, I could become an accessory bully.
[00:31:40] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, that's really humbling.
[00:31:42] Frances Frei:
In fact, I think I have been an accessory bully in the past, and so I want us to be aware of it, which is why I'm so glad Amy is writing this book, make it discussable, and have target bully, accessory bully, just part of our vernacular so that we can prevent it.
[00:31:59] Anne Morriss:
Well, and, and here's where I also found some optimism in this conversation. The response radius is also bigger. So, the, when we're in these situations and our observers that we can, actually, take actions as bystanders that turn into bravehearts to to honor her beautiful lexicon, it and it that doesn't have to mean these dramatic
actions.
[00:32:31] Frances Frei:
I find that so powerful.
[00:32:35] Anne Morriss:
Alright everyone, thank you for listening. I know this was a tough conversation. Uh, really appreciate you hanging in there with us. If you wanna figure out your own workplace problem with us here at Fixable, send us a message. Email us at fixable@ted.com or call us at 234-fixable.
You can even text us at 2343492253.
[00:32:58] Frances Frei:
We'd love to hear from you.
[00:33:02] Anne Morriss:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.
[00:33:06] Frances Frei:
And, me Frances Frei.
[00:33:10] Anne Morriss:
This episode was produced by Isabel Carter from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at Story Yard.
[00:33:25] Frances Frei:
If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.
[00:33:32] Anne Morriss:
And, one more thing, if you can please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.