How to self-promote without shame (w/ Chris Duffy) (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, for the past three months, I have been watching you avoid part of your day job that you do not like.

[00:00:11] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:00:13] Anne Morriss:
Which is, I think, one of the themes of our conversation today. Um, I, uh, I'm not going to name it, but I'm going to name the pattern, which is I watch you avoid, ignore… I mean, is, is this a fair assessment?

[00:00:31] Frances Frei:
It’s a totally fair assessment. I will go to great lengths to avoid what turns out to be eight hours of work. You know what? Four hours of work. I spent three months avoiding four hours of work. Yes.

[00:00:42] Anne Morriss:
And it takes up a huge amount of space, and the avoidance piece takes up a huge amount of space. Is that…?

[00:00:48] Frances Frei:
No, it’s, it’s, uh, it's four hours either way. Why I do it at the end of three months as opposed to the beginning of the three months continues to be a mystery.

[00:00:56] Anne Morriss:
So I was, I was thinking about how we coach people through this one, because I think we're better at giving advice.

[00:01:05] Frances Frei:
Oh, much.

[00:01:06] Anne Morriss:
Than, than, than foll—

[00:01:07] Frances Frei:
You’re good.

[00:01:08] Anne Morriss:
I’m being, I'm being generous when I say we.

[00:01:11] Frances Frei:
Okay, yeah.

[00:01:11] Anne Morriss:
Um, but what, what coaching would have helped you?

[00:01:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So when I'm avoiding, I don't realize all of this precious calculus.

[00:01:19] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:01:19] Frances Frei:
I’m just avoiding it emotionally in the moment. So if you can snap me out of it, that Moonstruck scene, snap out of it. If you can snap me out of it, perhaps with a frame of, “This is going to take four hours regardless of when you do it. So now let's decide when you're going to do it.”

[00:01:35] Anne Morriss:
Let me ask you this, just to estimate the level of pain you are anticipating in completing the task versus the actual pain you experience completing the task.

[00:01:47] Frances Frei:
Uh, here's the dirty little secret. I actually like the task.

[00:01:49] Anne Morriss:
That's what I observed.

[00:01:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:01:51] Anne Morriss:
You actually enjoyed it.

[00:01:52] Frances Frei:
I, I, I enjoy it. I'm really good at it. I make a big difference when I do it. So this is all just getting from my current state to breaking through the armor I've put on that task to get to the other side.

[00:02:05] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, well, I think there's two scenarios. There's, there's a task that you are anticipating you're not going to like, it's going to be hard, and that's fairly accurate. And then there's a task that you're misreading in terms of the level of difficulty.

[00:02:23] Frances Frei:
I, I would say for me—

[00:02:24] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:02:24] Frances Frei:
It’s more than 90 percent of the time, I'm a reframe away from actually enjoying the task. There's very little about work that I can't frame to enjoy because we have so much flexibility in how we do it. So, but, I take a disastrous frame, attach it to it, and then avoid it.

[00:02:42] Anne Morriss:
Right. I mean, you do, you place a catastrophic frame—

[00:02:48] Frances Frei:
A catastrophic frame.

[00:02:48] Anne Morriss:
—on the task which, and then it's totally rational to avoid it for as long as you—

[00:02:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah. As long as I possible can.

[00:02:54] Anne Morriss:
Until, like, your job is on the line, and then you will do it.

[00:02:58] Frances Frei:
Yes. Yes. Whereas, imagine that there was a task that I really didn't like. Um. Like, I'll use a silly one, but in our household, I really don't like putting dishes into the dishwasher because the dishwasher could be on and water spills out, so that's like a fraught task for me.

[00:03:17] Anne Morriss:
Mm. Mm. High stakes.

[00:03:18] Frances Frei:
High stakes, really fraught. I really don't like doing that task. So, to do that, I think you have to give me Scooby Snacks for doing it. Like, I need, I need all of the encouragement to do it, but for the vast majority of tasks, I can reframe it. But the dishwasher, I can't reframe. That's just fraught.

[00:03:36] Anne Morriss:
I'm just treating you like a dog… What, what, I have, the experiments I’ve run to try to get you to put dishes into the dishwasher.

[00:03:44] Frances Frei:
Oh, they're so delicious. So delicious.

[00:03:34] Anne Morriss:
I think the only one that I recall ever working is for me to say, “Honey, there are now two of us in the house. So if you don't put your dish away, it's just very clear to me…”

[00:04:00] Frances Frei:
Who I think should put it away. And that horrifies me.

[00:04:01] Anne Morriss:
Who it was.

[00:04:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:03] Anne Morriss:
I think so. There was…

[00:04:03] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And when—

[00:04:04] Anne Morriss:
No, and I had to resort to, to shame.

[00:04:05] Frances Frei:
Shame. Yeah.

[00:04:07] Anne Morriss:
Which it didn't feel great.

[00:04:08] Frances Frei:
Yeah. For you, but it worked for me because you were like, “If you don't put the dishes in the dishwasher, I have to.” Bam! It's reframed for me.

[00:04:16] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. That was the phrase that broke through.

[00:04:19] Frances Frei:
That was it. Yes.

[00:04:19] Anne Morriss:
If you don't do this, then it means I'm doing this.

[00:04:21] Frances Frei:
And I was not not doing it to leave you work. That horrifies me. I was not doing it because I didn't want to do it. I hadn't thought it all the way through.

[00:04:32] Anne Morriss:
So before you attach a catastrophic storyline to the task, try a reframe.

[00:04:37] Frances Frei:
It's really beautiful advice.

[00:04:42] Anne Morriss:
Hi everyone, welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:04:47] Frances Frei:
And I’m Frances Frei, I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School. And I’m Anne's wife.

[00:04:51] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just a single conversation away.

[00:04:59] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today, Anne?

[00:05:01] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we're talking with the comedian Chris Duffy, who is part of the TED Audio Collective family. Chris hosts the podcast How to Be a Better Human. He's written for shows like Problem Areas on HBO, and he also does standup.

[00:05:15] Frances Frei:
Wow. Do we know what he's calling about?

[00:05:16] Anne Morriss:
We do, and it's a doozy. Chris is calling about social media and specifically how to use it without sounding like... And, and this is his word, a “sociopath”.

[00:05:27] Frances Frei:
Oh my goodness. I relate to the discomfort with social media. It can feel forced and inauthentic, especially if you feel like you have to use it.

[00:05:36] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I really feel this one because this is pain that I share. So let's get into it.

[BREAK]

[00:06:01] Anne Morriss:
Oh, Chris Duffy, welcome to Fixable.

[00:06:04] Chris Duffy:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here.

[00:06:06] Anne Morriss:
So start us off with your question. What inspired you to come on the show today?

[00:06:12] Chris Duffy:
Well, it's funny because I struggle to even talk about this because I think it's kind of embarrassing, which I think is actually the root of, of the problem that we can get to. But basically, I have this career that I love where I get to be a writer and a podcast host and a comedian, and all of those things are public facing, but they also require, um, people to know about my work, and people to know about my work who can hire me, people to know about my work who can listen and read and buy tickets. And I have never really had a big social media following, and I'm constantly being told by people I work with that it would be easier for me and, frankly, easier for them if I was more active on social media and got a bigger social media following.

And so I'm kind of torn because I very much want to, like, go to the next level in my career. I want to have a, you know, make it easy to give me a yes when I am pitching a project or when I'm trying to do something new. Uh, but I also, uh, struggle with feeling like social media is bad for my brain and bad for the world and I know that it's not that exact binary, but I, I have never figured out how to kind of be, be consistent in a way that both feels natural and authentic to me and also grows my audience, which even saying grows my audience… Ugh.

[00:07:34] Anne Morriss:
I, I could I can see you cringe.

[00:07:36] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:07:36] Anne Morriss:
So what would success on this call look like? You would be less embarrassed. You would be you would feel enthusiasm for this task?

[00:07:44] Chris Duffy:
If I'm being totally honest, my, my ultimate success would be you all being like, “Here is a way to grow your career without doing the thing that you hate doing.” Like, here's the magic wand that you can just do it and it's easy and you don't have to do the annoying thing that feels kind of gross. Um, I imagine that might not exist. So I would say my secondary form of success would be, how can I figure out how to use these tools in a way that feels sustainable and works? Because I think the worst case scenario for me is that I'm doing all of this and it's not even working.

[00:08:21] Anne Morriss:
Right. So for some context, Frances and I are also terrible at social media. And—

[00:08:26] Chris Duffy:
Okay, great. Well, this is the perfect people to come to.

[00:08:29] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And we also feel a lot of pressure to be a lot better at it at this moment in our lives. And so this is, I think is going to be a little bit of group therapy—

[00:08:37] Chris Duffy:
Mm. Good.

[00:08:37] Anne Morriss:
—as well as we find our way to a solution here. So Chris, let's back it up. Uh/ You are a professional comedian. This is how you identify? Is that fair to say?

[00:08:47] Chris Duffy:
Yes. A comedian, a writer, a podcast host, but it's all under the, um, the realm of trying to connect with people, and often through humor.

[00:08:55] Anne Morriss:
The act of getting up on a stage with a microphone and a spotlight has a very, like, from one angle, very self-promotional, “look at me”-feel to it. What's different about that than the idea of posting something on social media for you?

[00:09:17] Chris Duffy:
Well, I think, uh, one of the things that is different about it is that it's limited, right? It's time-limited is that I'm not on stage 24 hours of the day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. So there's kind of I can put some boundaries around it that, uh, feel very like clear, right?

Um, and I think the other thing is that the risk of saying something wrong in a theater is pretty low. I, I understand people have this real fear of, like, bombing when they think about doing stand up comedy, but in practice, if you're really bad, people just don't laugh and then they don't remember you. And if you're good, they remember you. Um, and I feel like that's maybe not true on social media.

[00:10:02] Anne Morriss:
And the stakes are high if you get it wrong, is also what I hear you saying?

[00:10:07] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, I think the—

[00:10:07] Anne Morriss:
Like there is a permanent footprint of Chris at his lowest.

[00:10:13] Chris Duffy:
Yes. I think though, I would, I, I know that people always really are into this concept of, like, “cancel culture”, and that's not really something that I buy into a hundred percent. And that's not what I'm afraid of. I'm not, like, afraid of posting something and getting canceled. I'm more afraid of, like, having, uh, you know, a thing that people can easily scroll through that's cringeworthy.

[00:10:36] Anne Morriss:
What's a recent example of a, of a high point for you? You think about the last six months when you felt like, “I am feeling and getting exactly what I came for in this job.”

[00:10:44] Chris Duffy:
I mean, a, a huge high point has been, um, I recently sold my first book. Um, so it's, I'm writing it now. It's a nonfiction book about, um, how to have a sense of humor and why that matters. And kind of trying to redefine exactly what people think of as a sense of humor.

[00:11:01] Anne Morriss:
So cool.

[00:11:02] Chris Duffy:
’Cause I think people often think it's like being the funny person in the front of the room, and I'm like, I think it's actually being able to notice the weird things in the world and in yourself and laugh about them. So, that's a big thing, and it ties in exactly to this, because part of the process of that is like, I don't want to write a book and have no one read it, and my publisher doesn't want that, and no one wants that.

[00:11:21] Anne Morriss:
Right. Yeah. I want to ask about, um, whose careers you admire right now, and then you, there are people on social media whose presence you admire.

[00:11:32] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, I think I have a few friends who I have seen from the beginning, and I've seen how they do this really, really well. Um, the comedian and, uh, TV writer, Karen Chee, I think is like, she's so funny. I think she's so great at social media and I think she's very, like, kind, uh, and supportive to people on that.

Um, I also think, uh, Josh Gondelman is someone who, his career I admire. I'm really lucky to have him as a friend. And something that Josh told me early when I was starting and he had been a few years ahead of me is I was complaining about how to get booked on stand-up shows, you have to send people emails that are kind of annoying them. Like you have to say, “Hey, I just want to follow back. Would you have me on the show this Wednesday? Hey, just want to follow up. Do you have any openings?”

And Josh said, “Well, that's the job.” Like, the job is sending people the emails and then you get to do the comedy and that really changed how I thought about sending those emails because I just hated bothering people and he was like, well, that's, you know, getting past that is the work. And he's, I think he, I mean, he's been hugely successful in social media. And I think he's been really good at, you know, thinking like, “How do I do this in a way, but also like treat it like a job?” Which it is.

[00:12:38] Frances Frei:
That's so beautiful. And it's going to be fun to be in the solution. But so I think I'll do the diagnosis, um, which is at its highest level, you know, there's content and there's distribution. And you're magnificent at the content and you're a multi-hyphenate content provider, right? A multi-sport athlete.

And that's really awesome. Uh, and, and it's now the distribution. Social media in 2023 is the lowest-cost distribution channel. That is, it's hard to go from zero to one, but it costs almost nothing more to go from one to a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand.

[00:13:19] Chris Duffy:
It's so interesting. I mean, I feel like it's very powerful. I'm genuinely saying this. This isn't just for the sake of the podcast. Like, I feel moved to, you know, in an internal way, just hearing you put it in those terms, because it does feel so much less loaded to think of it as a distribution problem.

[00:13:36] Anne Morriss:
Right. Yeah.

[00:13:36] Chris Duffy:
It’s really interesting to think about it in those terms.

[00:13:39] Anne Morriss:
Frances, kick us off with some of the ideas that have bubbled up for you.

[00:13:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah, so the only work for you, I think, is going to be, um, what is the right rhythm for you? It's going to be once or twice a week. I wouldn't do it any more than that. And it'll be, you know, bigger stuff, whereas some other people get to do it intraday, but that's because it, it is energy producing to them to do it intraday. I don't think anyone on this call, it's energy producing to do it intraday.

[00:14:07] Anne Morriss:
I don't know, I'm not willing, I'm not willing to concede that, Frances.

[00:14:11] Frances Frei:
Okay, alright.

[00:14:12] Anne Morriss:
Because I, I think there is some work before we get to the posting schedule.

[00:14:17] Frances Frei:
Okay. Yes. Yes.

[00:14:17] Anne Morriss:
I'm going to suggest, which is reframing this task for all of us.

[00:14:23] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:14:23] Anne Morriss:
Because Chris, the little that I have experienced of what you're putting out in the world, and now I'm like, going to be a voracious consumer of it—

[00:14:31] Frances Frei:
You’re going to be a great ambassador.

[00:14:34] Chris Duffy:
Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much.

[00:14:35] Frances Frei:
Um, it, it’s one of the threads across everything you do is it's fundamentally not about you. Like you are there, uh, on a mission to make us in the audience better, smarter, to spark joy, to feel more connected. And you're doing that incredibly well. And then the people that you admire most in this space and in the world are also doing that incredibly well.

And so, for me, it's, it's figuring out how can we bring that version of you into the social media world? And how can we think about it as just an extension of the canvas? So you write books, you do podcasts, you do really short form content, which is also known as social media. And every once in a while, because we want to feel joy, be connected to you, be smarter and better, you tell us how we can continue to get access to you. But the rest of the time, it's just a short form version of what you do everywhere else in the world. And the, the account that I love is Amy Sedaris.

[00:15:52] Chris Duffy:
Oh, I love her. Yes.

[00:15:54] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:15:54] Chris Duffy:
So bizarre and strange in the best possible way.

[00:15:55] Anne Morriss:
In the best possible way. So, it'll be like a series of bizarre appetizer photographs, right? And then it'll be like dog butts that look like humans, or it'll be like group exercise videos from the 70s and 80s.

[00:16:11] Chris Duffy:
Uh-huh.

[00:16:11] Anne Morriss:
And it is just... It is just sparking joy. And if you go on, like, I just know her Instagram presence, but it's hard to find her promoting herself in it in a literal way, in the way that I suspect makes you feel like a sociopath.

[00:16:29] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:16:29] Anne Morriss:
I mean once every 30 posts, she's like, “Oh, here's a clip when I was on this show,” or but when she's promoting, she’s usually promoting other people. And that's if, if, if I were coaching you on this, this is where I would push you to start is you have to post daily, but you cannot self promote. The rule in the beginning is you have to use social media to do something, but you're not allowed to self promote in the beginning.

[00:16:55] Chris Duffy:
It's, it's really interesting to hear that because one of the things that I've done really consistently for a decade now is put out this newsletter every Saturday.

[00:17:05] Anne Morriss:
Huh.

[00:17:05] Chris Duffy:
And I, I started because I was like, “I have to tell people about my live shows,” but I was not doing it. I was only sending it way too infrequently. And then someone was like, “Well, why don't you…” Or maybe I came up with this idea of: why don't I recommend things that other people are doing that I love? And then I'll also have my tour dates in there. And so every week I send this newsletter with a little story about me and then three things that something I think is great, something I think is funny, something I think is interesting that were not made by me. And because it feels focused on other people, I do that every Saturday. I've done that every Saturday for a decade, and it, it’s fun and I enjoy doing it, but I never thought about putting that into social media. So obvious now that you say it.

[00:17:43] Anne Morriss:
Totally. And I think, I think you're going to find your special, like, Chris DuffyTM Lane, which is how you're going to use it, um, but for sure it is not going to be primarily self promotional because that runs counter to everything that you stand for in the world.

[00:17:59] Chris Duffy:
One of the only times that I've had truly had a great time on social media was on LinkedIn because I, as a comedian, thought like, I probably won't ever have a purpose for LinkedIn, right? Like, I don't have, like, a resume. It's not how people get jobs. And so I was exploring it, and I was kind of laughing as, as a my first time on there that, that when you put a job up, they don't confirm that you work at that place.

And so I wanted to see how far up the ladder that would go. And so just as a way to test it, when I created a profile, I said, “My name is Chris Duffy and I am the CEO of LinkedIn.” And then, it not only allowed me to do that, but LinkedIn emailed everyone in my contact book and said, “Congratulate Chris on his new job as CEO of LinkedIn.”

And so for the next year, I was the CEO of LinkedIn on LinkedIn. And then I received a, a message from Faith at LinkedIn Trust and Security saying, “We're concerned that you are not who you think you are.” And I said, “That's pretty rude for someone who works for me.” And then they permanently deactivated my account. So I have to create a non-banned LinkedIn account if I want to get back on that.

[00:19:03] Anne Morriss:
Alright. Alright, so maybe, maybe we're not gonna start with LinkedIn.

[00:19:07] Chris Duffy:
No, no, like a great place.

[00:19:09] Anne Morriss:
Instagram… We’ll make a few calls, we'll build, we'll build, rebuild the relationship. LinkedIn is an interesting one because it's, the norms, the norms are very narrow.

[00:19:18] Chris Duffy:
Yes.

[00:19:18] Anne Morriss:
To, like, what you're allowed to do and say and talk about. Here's how I get stuck. Um, and maybe you two can help me on this. So I get to quote Brené Brown, because I'm a lesbian of a certain age. And she often talks about hustling for worthiness. And so for me, being on social media forces me to confront that behavior, because it's this, like, tyrannical machine that just, that reminds me that I am, like, craving the world's love.

Like do you love me now? What about now? Do you love me now? And we're gonna, like, measure that with likes, and that's why I get scared of this machine because I don't like the version of me that shows up for it.

[00:20:08] Chris Duffy:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I, again, if you were to sit in my actual therapy sessions, something that I've talked about a lot is trying to get past the idea that I'm, uh, building a case for myself, that I'm like assembling evidence and—

[00:20:25] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Right.

[00:20:25] Chris Duffy:
—testimonials and, uh, eyewitness reports that are going to like, prove in the trial.

[00:20:31] Frances Frei:
No, listen. Like if you just put in those three beautiful things that you say in every newsletter, um, that would be amazing because then people will start to go towards, uh, go towards that.

[00:20:45] Anne Morriss:
Or that, but, and, and, and Frances, I love that. And I want to layer on the mission here. Yes, so more people can get access to the amazing Chris Duffy, but I also want it to be a vehicle for you to spark joy and make me smarter and make me better and make me feel more connected to my world and make me understand hard things and the only difference is that you're limited by these very short forms. And the fact that other people are using it primarily to self promote is not material to your mission.

[00:21:21] Chris Duffy:
Okay, here's my other, I, this is all so, so helpful. And here's my other, uh, hiccup or hangup when it, when it comes to this. I think the entertainment industry and social media share a, a kind of like, understanding of the world in some ways. Which is that like the, it's easiest to make you very successful if you can immediately and simply be placed into a box, um, and something that I've struggled with is, like, not wanting to be just in one box, right? Like I want to do a show that is in the world of, like, self-improvement. I also want to do things that are just funny. I also want to do things that are educational.

[00:21:56] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:21:56] Chris Duffy:
And I sometimes struggle with like, how do I figure out what my boxes, and is there one, or am I actually in like four or five? Yeah.

[00:22:03] Frances Frei:
It's just going to make you more interesting because there are some people that are, like I would say Amy Sedaris is not one box. And we can think of some popular people who are one box. And I don't think they're going to be your role models necessarily. Um, so I, I think it makes you more interesting to do that.You'll get variety seeking people.

[00:22:26] Chris Duffy:
Yeah, I mean, that's the people who I want to get for sure.

[00:22:30] Frances Frei:
Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:30] Anne Morriss:
And the themes between the boxes, I mean, I think you're not going to be one box in terms of medium. I mean, what's so fun about this conversation for me is you are so perfectly designed to run interesting experiments—

[00:22:42] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh.

[00:22:42] Anne Morriss:
—in social media because you get something from playing in all these different sandboxes. You know, books, podcasts, standup, like you love the challenge of translating, you know, your message to these various media. But to me, the message seems like the thread that stays constant.

[00:23:05] Chris Duffy:
Yeah.

[00:23:05] Anne Morriss:
Like the values stay constant, the mission stays constant, and the landscape change, and the vehicle changes, and the stages change.

[00:23:12] Chris Duffy:
I love that.

[00:23:13] Anne Morriss:
But who, who you are presents to us as really, really clear and, and really clearly defined.

[00:23:21] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:21] Chris Duffy:
It's, it's so interesting to hear you say that. Uh, I feel like I, I genuinely feel like this conversation has led to some, some big breakthroughs for me in terms of like framing this and, um, I thought it'd be great and fun, but I was like, I, am I going to have some sort of giant philosophical breakthrough? This is something I've been working on. And now I'm like, I think you actually have really helped me on this huge thing. Um, and one thing that it's, it's coming, coming up for me is I find this happens a lot when I am talking to other people about their creative pursuits, which is that like, I can see it so clearly from the outside.

And, you know, I've heard someone say, I wish I could remember who the source of this quote was, but I've heard someone say that we all have, uh, a blind spot in our lives that's the exact size and shape of ourselves.

[00:24:03] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:03] Chris Duffy:
And, I think that this is, you know, I'm realizing that this is me kind of coming up against, like, I don't know how to define myself from the inside, but I don't necessarily need to. Like, everyone else is going to see it clearly. I can just do the things that are authentic.

[00:24:21] Frances Frei:
You are maybe the clearest photo I've ever seen of, of a, of a human.

[00:24:27] Anne Morriss:
And the picture's, the picture's beautiful. Like the clarity is beautiful and the picture itself is beautiful, Chris.

[00:24:32] Chris Duffy:
Thank you.

[00:24:33] Anne Morriss:
All right, Chris, we're professionally obligated to ask what you're going to do differently, uh, as a result of this conversation.

[00:24:39] Chris Duffy:
Well, I think that I'm gonna I mean, I feel like there have been so many practical concrete things to do. Um, so I'm certainly going to, you know, think about posting differently to think about it as like, it's not, it doesn't have to get this sort of big reaction or lead to self promotion.
But I also think that, um, probably the biggest things that I'm going to do differently are, are the mental reframing around this. I, I think that, like the idea of having content and needing distribution is one big piece that I think really frames it super clearly for me. And then I also think that, um, you know, the idea, Anne, that you brought up of, like, you can do a bunch of, you can post a bunch of different things and people will want that as well. You don't have to have, you don't have to limit it so that people then can only get a limited thing. That has been a big roadblock to me.

[00:25:27] Anne Morriss:
And it’s not just a vehicle to get access to other things. I think this is where I want to push you on framing. This is not just a get—a vehicle to get access to your other art, your other content, your other comedy—

[00:25:38] Chris Duffy:
It’s short-form.

[00:25:38] Anne Morriss:
Create a short form experience for us that is contained within these media. There aren't many humans walking the planet who are truly up for the task, but you, Chris Duffy, I can guarantee are one of them. Um, you have to create an experience like, and maybe not every post, but when I land, give me something that I can take away just from the post.

[00:26:01] Chris Duffy:
It's funny because I imagine you could say that to, to other people and they would feel like that's really overwhelming, but to me, that does feel exciting. You know, don't think about it as like, you know, whatever, quote-unquote “social media”, instead it think about it as like creating a short form experience.

[00:26:13] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:26:13] Anne Morriss:
So to close us out Chris, how can our listeners find you on social media?

[00:26:19] Chris Duffy:
Uh, wow. Okay, Well, uh, on Instagram I’m @chrisiduffy, uh, the letter I, and, uh, same thing on Tik Tok, and then you can also find me, uh on everything at chrisduffycomedy.com.

[00:26:31] Anne Morriss:
Amazing.

[00:26:31] Chris Duffy:
Awesome.

[00:26:31] Frances Frei:
So, thank you.

[00:26:32] Chris Duffy:
Thank you so much. This was really great. I, I had a great time. It exceeded my already high expectations.

[00:26:36] Anne Morriss:
It was very mutual. You've been an awesome guest, Chris, and you've won two new followers on all the platforms.

[00:26:42] Chris Duffy:
That's how it goes. Two at a time.

[00:26:43] Anne Morriss:
Except Tik Tok. We’re, we’re afraid of TikTok.

[00:26:46] Chris Duffy:
Okay, great.

[00:26:46] Frances Frei:
Yeah, we're very afraid of TikTok.

[00:26:48] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Speaking of lesbians of a certain age, it's just, it's not going to work.

[00:26:51] Frances Frei:
Yeah. We're not going near it.

[00:26:52] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

How you doing over there, Frances? What did this conversation make you think about your own social media use?

[00:27:17] Frances Frei:
You know, it just, it had such clarity that I was happiest on social media when it wasn't about me. And it's, uh, and it's the self promotion part is not… When that's the main dish. I just want to hide from it. How about you?

[00:27:32] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, well, the people I admire most on these platform are bringing a sense of joy and freedom to the task that they really communicate. So that's what I aspire to. I think for me to get there, I have to get over interacting with it as this, like, nightmarish addictive hustle machine. For me, I think the liberation moment is thinking it of it as a short form version of what we do in long form.

We do it in podcast. We write books. I'm not self-distracted writing books. I'm not thinking like—

[00:28:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:28:10] Anne Morriss:
“You know, wondering what the how the world's going to react.” Um, and so I think getting in touch with that that mission…

[00:28:20] Frances Frei:
I love that. You know, there's so many things that we could take the, the advice that we just gave to Chris.

[00:28:25] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, that's good. That's really helpful framing and it gives me a lot of ideas for where to go and to play and I also—

[00:28:36] Frances Frei:
Let’s—

[00:28:36] Anne Morriss:
—think that's the word. That's a word I need to bring to this.

[00:28:38] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:28:38] Anne Morriss:
To find the freedom is, is how can we play on these—

[00:28:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:28:43] Anne Morriss:
—what can be magnificent platforms in terms of connection and communication?

All right, everyone. That's our show. Thank you for listening, and listen, we want to hear from you too. If you want to figure out your own workplace problem with us, we may also have it. Uh, send us a message, email us at fixable@ted.com, or call us at 234-FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:29:13] Frances Frei:
Fixing is a process. We can fix it even if we don't know how to do it.

[00:29:30] Anne Morriss:
Exactly. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

[00:29:35] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash.

[00:29:52] Frances Frei:
We'll be bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week. So make sure to follow the show, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. That way they'll always be downloaded and ready to go when you are ready to listen.

[00:30:04] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can, please take a second to leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners.