How to outsmart bias at work (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Hello, Frances.

[00:00:01] Frances Frei:
Hey, beautiful.

[00:00:02] Anne Morriss:
I wanna start off today by talking a little bit about one of my favorite subjects, which I know—

[00:00:10] Frances Frei:
Does not narrow it down at all.

[00:00:12] Anne Morriss:
I could, I could be landing this plane in a number of locations, but it's the, I wanna talk about the stories we tell ourselves.

[00:00:21] Frances Frei:
Oh yeah.

[00:00:23] Anne Morriss:
And how they impact our ability to show up.

[00:00:26] Frances Frei:
Which is in, it, which remains incredible to me.

[00:00:30] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I think it is the most powerful Work—capital W—we can do, uh, particularly in moments where we're feeling disempowered. Listeners to this show will know that I spend a lot of time thinking about this and working with people on it, and in particular, working with people on how, how we all can get tripped up or stuck in certain narratives that don't always serve us.
[00:00:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:01:00] Anne Morriss:
Or our ambitions.

[00:01:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah. It’s, uh, we can really get in our own way. And what's amazing to me is we simply change the way we think and then all kinds of good things happen.

[00:01:10] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And I was reflecting on this because I just had a great time with an audience. Spent an hour with them, achieved all of my hopes and dreams for their experience.

[00:01:23] Frances Frei:
So that means there were tears.

[00:01:23] Anne Morriss:
They laughed, they cried, they thought about the world differently. And there was a point in my career it was, it wasn't that long ago where I was given the feedback by my investors that I was not effective in the front of the room. And that story, like really, it really hit.

[00:01:42] Frances Frei:
It held you back for a while.

[00:01:43] Anne Morriss:
And it wasn't that it was not true because I wasn't being particularly effective, but the way that it was framed—“I am not effective.”

[00:01:53] Frances Frei:
It was almost like it was a character trait.

[00:01:55] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. It was framed as a character trait and there was no possibility in that framing.

[00:02:02] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:02:02] Anne Morriss:
And one of the tools that was really helpful to me was a really simple sequence of sentences that the great Byron Katie, so I adore this woman, and I think she's a force for good in the world. She has a website called thework.com where you can find a bunch of tools including this one, but it's the four essential questions.

And it starts with, “Whatever the story is. I’m not good at this. This person doesn't respect me.” Uh, whatev—whatever it is, you, you start with the question, and the first thing that she pushes you to ask is, “Is it true?” And of course our answer is always—

[00:02:44] Frances Frei:
Of course it is.

[00:02:44] Anne Morriss:
“Of course it's fucking true. Like, that's why I am suffering.” Um, and then the second question is, “Is it really true?” But then the liberation happens with the follow-up questions, which are, “How do you react when you believe this thought? Who are you”—

[00:03:04] Frances Frei:
When I believe. Defensive.

[00:03:05] Anne Morriss:
—“when I believe this story?”

[00:03:07] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Victim.

[00:03:07] Anne Morriss:
Limited, defensive, like incapable of solving the problem—

[00:03:12] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:03:12] Anne Morriss:
—because everyone else—

[00:03:13] Frances Frei:
Is doing it to me.

[00:03:14] Anne Morriss:
—is doing it to me and has the power. And then you get to the liberation moment, is “Who would I be without this story?”

[00:03:23] Frances Frei:
Oh yeah.

[00:03:24] Anne Morriss:
Um, and if I start replacing it with a story that's more productive, more empowering, or there's more freedom of movement, that's potentially more accurate. You know, um, who, who do I get to be in that story? And it's really hard to do this on your own.

[00:03:49] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I actually, let's go with impossible.

[00:03:46] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And it is that to me, that's why this kind of work is so exciting. So, Frances, let's get into it.

This is Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss, I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:04:01] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:04:05] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is Fixable, and solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[00:04:15] Frances Frei:
Today we have Elizabeth, not her real name, who is living in a very challenging narrative. Let's take a listen to her voicemail.

[00:04:22] Elizabeth:
Hi, Anne and Frances. I am calling because I am a female in a male-dominated industry, roofing and construction. Um, I’m met with resistance from male desk adjusters or male field adjusters that think that I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to insurance work scopes.

And I'm also kind of met with resistance from trying to get new clients, them thinking that I wouldn't be a good fit because I'm a girl and I don't know what it takes to put on a roof. So any advice, any type of, you know, verbage I should be using out there to help me get my point across that just because I'm a woman, that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

[00:05:02] Frances Frei:
Oh, this is gonna be awesome. Because how do you overcome first impressions? And are they really first impressions?

[00:05:11] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, no, there's a very powerful and, and sticky story at, at the center of this that is not necessarily untrue. Um, but where can, can she find some freedom of movement here, even in, in a world where, you know, the patriarchy is real?

[00:05:28] Frances Frei:
I want it to be not true in the rear view mirror.

[00:05:31] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yes. I love that as a goal.

Elizabeth, welcome to Fixable.

[00:05:45] Elizabeth:
Well, thank you. It's so great to talk to you guys.

[00:05:48] Anne Morriss:
Uh, before we jump into the problem, we listened to your voicemail. We're, we're actually quite eager to dive in, but, uh, we're gonna try to have the discipline to, to step back and capture some of the context first. So what, uh, what is the work that you do?

[00:06:01] Elizabeth:
Um. Previous, in the past I had worked specifically for larger roofing companies, um, kind of all around. I was what you called, like, a storm chaser. So there would be a big hell storm somewhere.

[00:06:15] Anne Morriss:
That’s a, a vivid image. Yeah, Yeah.

[00:06:16] Elizabeth:
Yeah. I’m not chasing the tornadoes, just the hail. Um, so there would be a big storm, and I would go, and I would help the guys set up an office, and I would handle all of the day-to-day stuff, the paperwork, the insurance work scopes, and kind of help, um, the homeowners, like, understand their insurance policy and kind of what was happening and all the steps that were going on. Over the pandemic, I started my own company.

[00:06:40] Anne Morriss:
Whoa.

[00:06:40] Elizabeth:
'Cause I noticed that there was a real need for people like me who, um, understood the insurance process. And, um, could communicate what was needed to the insurance company as well as to the contractors.

[00:06:54] Anne Morriss:
So how, how do you think about… who pays you for your time and talent?

[00:06:58] Elizabeth:
Right. My clients are roofers, so I get paid directly from the roofing contractors.

[00:07:04] Anne Morriss:
Got it. So you run interference between the roofers and the insurance companies on behalf of the roofers. And what's been the biggest surprise for you in going out on your own?

[00:07:14] Elizabeth:
Um, how do I put this? You know, I've always had success working with one insurance, you know, one roofer at a time. And so I thought it would be pretty easy 'cause he gave me great, like, feedback and was, like, very supportive and everything like that. And I guess the biggest reality check I had was going on on my own was, like, not everybody's like that.

Not everyone thinks that women can be in this industry and handle this job and, like, know what they're talking about or know how to put on a roof. And so that was kind of like the first big, like uh-oh, hey. Not everybody is great as my former, you know, employer, so…

[00:07:50] Anne Morriss:
Um, in your voicemail you said you were experiencing some friction with both adjusters and clients.

[00:07:57] Elizabeth:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:07:57] Anne Morriss:
Which of the two is a bigger source of pain for you right now?

[00:08:01] Elizabeth:
Right now, I would say adjusters.

[00:08:04] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hm.

[00:08:04] Elizabeth:
I would say from the insurance side of things, it's definitely them. And I think, you know, I think there's even been national news stories about this right now about insurance companies, um, you know, pulling out of areas, not wanting to pay claims.

And you know, homeowners’ insurance policies are going through the roof, so they're looking for every little thing and trick in the book to not pay out claims like they're supposed to. Um, and so that's kind of like my biggest hurdle I'm trying to overcome at the moment.

[00:08:34] Anne Morriss:
And is that tension, um, inherent to the job? Like is that a structural tension where you're always gonna want them to pay more and they're always gonna wanna pay less? Is that a fair way to think about it?

[00:08:47] Elizabeth:
Yes. I would say yes, and I would say some insurance carriers more than others, but yes, that's just kind of the name of the game, and I'm okay with that to a certain, certain degree.

Um, but I, you know, it’s… It's frustrating, I guess you could say ‘cause when I know that I'm right, but I'm dismissed a lot because, you know, I'm, I've been called, you know, the secretary, the office girl, you know, the, all, all the, and I'm like, “Well, actually I'm not.”

[00:09:18] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. So that's what I was gonna get into. So what has led you to conclude that, that gender is, uh, is an issue here?

[00:09:27] Elizabeth:
So specifically from an adjuster and insurance carrier side, I have examples from both sides.

[00:09:35] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:09:35] Elizabeth:
But from the adjuster and insurance carrier side, um, this happened a couple of months ago. I called in about a claim and um, I was like, “Hey, you know, these things need to be covered because they're code, they're building code requirements.”

And I cited him the codes in my initial, um, supplement that I sent in an invoice that I had sent in to him. And, um, he was like, “Well, you probably just made up those codes.” And I was like, uh, “You can't really do that. You can't make up codes, you can't just, you know, throw some random letters and numbers in there.” Like they're, you know, if you could Google and see that I'm telling you the correct thing. And I was like, “You know what, I'm gonna try something.” So I actually had my brother, who is 12 years younger than me, he's in college and you know, I kind of have taught him the ropes along the way just in case he decided this is an industry he wants to get into.

But, I was like, “Why don't you call and speak to this guy and kind of see how he approaches you and just act like you're the sales guy on it, like you're the contractor?” And he did. And he would tell him, “Hey, this is… Hey man, this is building code stuff.” You know, we gotta do this, this, and this. And he was like, "Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying.” And approved it. Sent it off and it, everything was fine. And I was just like, wow. Just like, that is just mind blowing to me that that just happened.

[00:10:54] Anne Morriss:
Uh, super creative solution.

[00:10:58] Frances Frei:
Super creative. A super creative experiment. Like you got like, Anne's question had, “Do you know it was gender? Oh, you know, it was gender.

[00:11:03] Elizabeth:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:04] Frances Frei:
Uh, yeah. Really—

[00:11:04] Anne Morriss:
Really beautifully designed experiments.

[00:11:06] Frances Frei:
Really beautifully designed experiment.

[00:11:07] Anne Morriss:
We applaud you from the research side.

[00:11:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:11:09] Elizabeth:
Yeah.

[00:11:10] Anne Morriss:
Um, all right, so I, I wanna ask a couple of kind of intentionally provocative questions.

[00:11:18] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:11:18] Anne Morriss:
Just to, we just wanna get you into the posture of solving problems. But I wanna ask Frances if you have any other context questions?

[00:11:27] Frances Frei:
I, I do have a context question. So, um, how often do you have the same adjuster?

[00:11:33] Elizabeth:
Um, actually quite frequently, um, and, I, for certain insurance companies. So this kind of gets into the weeds a little bit, but there are certain insurance companies that have local adjusters, um, and so they circulate in the same areas all the time that I'm dealing with. There are bigger insurance companies that have what we call third party ladder assist. So it's just some company that they've hired, some guy with a ladder to go out there and look at a roof and send them pictures back to the office, to the desk adjuster and say, “Here are the pictures. Make a decision.”

So no one really that works for the insurance company is actually going out to look at the roof. Um, and so those guys are forever overturning. It's never the same one twice. So I would say it's about 60/40 right now when it comes to local adjust adjusters versus, you know, some person that I'll never see again.

[00:12:33] Frances Frei:
And is there, when you have the gender dynamics, you know, the, the odd gender dynamic when your brother came in and it was okay—

[00:12:41] Elizabeth:
Oh.

[00:12:41] Frances Frei:
Was that a, was that a local adjuster or a third party?

[00:12:44] Elizabeth:
It was, well, it was a desk adjuster, so, um, gone over the job.

[00:12:50] Frances Frei:
And the desk adjuster. Sorry. The, uh, how much repeat interactions do you have? How many repeat interactions do you have there? Is it never repeat?

[00:12:57] Elizabeth:
A little. Yeah.

[00:12:58] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:12:58] Elizabeth:
Never. Little to none. Little to none, because it's always… They have such high turnover rates, and you know, it gets reassigned all the time within their system. It's kind of like you're always chasing the next adjuster, you know? It's always the next one, the next one.

[00:13:13] Anne Morriss:
And then just to, I think, make explicit what you're saying. Have you found that in, when you ha—in relationships that are deeper than one touch, um, is gender less of an issue?

[00:13:26] Elizabeth:
I would say so. Yes.

[00:13:27] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:13:27] Frances Frei:
Because they have a chance to see your competence, right?

[00:13:30] Elizabeth:
Right. Correct. Yeah.

[00:13:31] Anne Morriss:
Right. So, and you present just for our listeners as wildly competent.

[00:13:35] Frances Frei:
Wildly competent. I’m ready to just give you all of the things.

[00:13:37] Anne Morriss:
Totally. Um, so can I ask a couple of provocative questions?

[00:13:41] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:44] Anne Morriss:
Um, and again, this is, I'm just talking to your subconscious here, just to open your heart and mind as we, as we, um, get ready to start, um, thinking through solutions. Has your gender ever helped you in this role in any way? The fact that you're one of the few women walking around this space?

[00:14:03] Elizabeth:
I would, I would not. None that I can think of off the top of my head. I would say, in the past when I worked for a, like, one single roofing company. Um, it helped me with homeowners; it helped me kind of build relationships with them, um, more or less so that the guys were kind of more likely to, to get the job. You know, pass the cells and everything.They felt more comfortable having, you know, making sure that someone was driving the boat, right?

[00:14:33] Frances Frei:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:14:33] Elizabeth:
Someone was organized at the office and, you know, everything like that. So I, I would say that was more, I think that's the only time that I can think of that has really helped me.

[00:14:43] Anne Morriss:
Perfect. If our conversation today were to be wildly successful and helpful to you, what would that look like?

[00:14:51] Elizabeth:
I would love to just know how to hand… not really handle these things. I, I feel like I know. I do yoga and now run every day to kinda like burn off that steam when I do get so mad. Like some of this, yeah.

[00:15:02] Anne Morriss:
Metabolize some of this. Yeah.

[00:15:05] Elizabeth:
Correct. But it's more about when I'm in these conversations with these men, how to… I don't wanna say be combative, but overcome those obstacles and also get new clients, you know, um, from the other side of things. Not just the adjusters, but like from a client point of view, getting these roofers, these contractors to trust me.

Um, you know, for example, I, I just got a new client that I had initially spoke with about six months ago, and he was like, no, I, you know, I can do it. I'm fine. I got it. Um, and then that he was told by a public adjuster that I work very close with who is a man, who was like, “Hey man, you should really use her. She's great. You know, like, this is what she can do for you.”

[00:15:54] Anne Morriss:
Awesome.

[00:15:54] Elizabeth:
And now, and now he's a client. So it's like I almost had to have a man vouch for me, um, in order to get a new client. And so I guess how to, you know, get new clients, but also when I'm talking to these adjusters, how to overcome those obstacles of being dismissed due to obvious, you know, being a female.

[00:16:15] Frances Frei:
So when the public adjuster was saying you were awesome, what things do you think they might have mentioned to this new client? Like… What, what make, what would some, what would a third party say is awesome about you?

[00:16:29] Elizabeth:
Um, I actually have helped him on quite a few of his own claims, and so it was, “Hey, this is what she can do for you. She can get you some more money. And if she can't, she will explain why. She'll teach you how to be a better inspector so when you're going out to inspect these roofs, how to take the pictures that are needed in order to warrant these supplements.”

So we're talking fences, you know, gutters and kind of things like that, that kind of add up all to one big claim and not just the roof. Um, you know, “She coordinates directly with the insurance company and the adjuster so you don't have to come home after being on a roof for 12 hours and sacrifice family time, you know, to get these invoicing supplements done, you know, let her handle that.” Um, so that's kind of his go-to, you know, kind of speech when he, when he talked to these guys out in the field.

[00:17:23] Anne Morriss:
That's an incredible value proposition.

[00:17:25] Elizabeth:
Yes. And that's what I've, I've told him and, you know, I really appreciate him, I do give him a referral fee for every time he sends me a guy. Um, and so I appreciate that he sees the value in me and what I do.

[00:17:39] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. All right, Frances. Summarize where we are.

[00:17:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah, so this issue of biased and first impressions comes up again and again for people in so many different settings. And it's not just about gender. It can be about any kind of identity that's not stereotypically associated with a certain role. Men in nursing, people of color in the executive suite, and so on. So that's the issue I see here.

[00:18:00] Elizabeth:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:18:00] Frances Frei:
In our experience, one way to move forward is to own the agency you do have in this flawed system and change your relationship with it. What I like about the problem is Elizabeth, you are awesome.

[00:18:12] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:18:13] Frances Frei:
So now we just have to figure out how to reveal that to the various constituents. I want the end result to be that people are delighted when it's you and not someone else.

[00:18:22] Elizabeth:
Yeah.

[00:18:23] Frances Frei:
So we know your value proposition to the contractors. Now, I wanna know, how do you make the insurance adjuster's job dramatically better off to the point where even if they were bugged by gender, it wouldn't matter because they're so relieved that it's you. So what's the value proposition for them?

[00:18:42] Elizabeth:
Um, I would say I feel like I try to do the best job that I can, um, for helping the adjuster doing their job better. Um, so I, in our software that we write up for invoices and supplements, I bold everything for them so it really stands out like what I'm asking for. I attach any necessary pictures. I give them code references. So I think, I feel like I do a pretty good job on giving them all the information upfront and as much information as possible. Maybe it's too much. Maybe, maybe that's, you know, the issue. Maybe there's like I, I don't wanna read this three paragraph email because, you know, but—

[00:19:29] Frances Frei:
So may I try something? Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

[00:19:30] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Can, can I ask you, Francis, as you do this, I wanna label where you're going.

[00:19:35] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:19:35] Anne Morriss:
Um, is it be so much better at your job that, that gender becomes a non-issue? Is that where you're heading?

[00:19:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah, I, I think that you are hiding your value from people and that permits them to get distracted by silly things. I also have, like, other comments on gender, but on this one in particular, because even as you're talking, I'm having trouble understanding your value, and I think once we can do that, you can do it some pretty quickly. So that's, got it. That's where I'm going with it is—

[00:20:09] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:20:09] Frances Frei:
That, so for example, I think what you just said is to the adjuster, “I can save you time and rework and make sure that if you get audited”—‘cause they must get audited—“that it's never gonna look like you overpaid.” Now, I don't know if those are the right three things.

[00:20:27] Elizabeth:
Yeah, right. Yeah, no, I would say that's, you know, exactly. 'Cause every time they have, they pay out more money. They have to explain that to someone higher up as to why they paid out more money.

[00:20:35] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So, so I, so if that's the value proposition to them, I would try, I would use an overt framing in everything I'm doing, um, and just try to focus on the clarity of those three things. Um, so that's where I was going with it.

[00:20:55] Anne Morriss:
Got it. Um, do you wanna keep pushing on that or are you ready to go to another door?

[00:20:59] Frances Frei:
No, no. I’m ready. Yeah.

[00:21:00] Anne Morriss:
So let me, we're gonna push, we're gonna throw a couple option threads out there and you pull on whatever one is interesting to you.

[00:21:05] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:21:06] Anne Morriss:
Um, and I totally agree with that thesis, by the way. Like the, the, the, there's nothing like wild success, um, to, like, you know, make this a non-issue. And I think there's some real leverage here that you have because you are so good at what you do, and making sure that other people, everyone in this, in this chain, understands what you can do for them.

[00:21:30] Elizabeth:
I think that is great. Being more clear, concise, and when I'm emailing them, instead of being like, just introducing myself and being straight to the point, like, “I’m here to help you.” You know? Yes.

[00:21:45] Frances Frei:
I’m here to help save you time. And save you rework.

[00:21:48] Elizabeth:
Yes.

[00:21:48] Frances Frei:
Um, like, yeah, like making it, the value proposition super duper clear, like you are on their side.

[00:21:59] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:21:59] Anne Morriss:
All right. Lemme give you another thread, um, to play with here. So, obviously you can't control your gender. You can't control the existence of bias in your operating environment. Uh, you do have a quite a bit of control over how you work with it and around it.

I'm going back to the story of your brother. Um, so I'm wondering if there are other ways to get you into a creative, almost like playful posture around this, where it is, it feels less personal. I almost wanna gamify this in some way. You know, where it's like, this is just, this is like one of the demons in the video game, uh, that you gotta deal with, but you're fucking Elizabeth, so, like, you can handle it.

So how can you out outsmart the demon here? Are there ways to, like, even use this to your advantage. Can you have a male, a fake male assistant that emails in advance? You know, can we use your brother more creatively? You know, I, I worked in, uh, when I started my own company, um, our investors were from the oil and gas industry.

They, uh, had not interacted with—

[00:23:19] Anne Morriss:
A lady CEO?

[00:23:19] Frances Frei:
Yes. Well, in the offices where I pitched them, I, I remember having the thought as I was pitching them, as they were looking at me, like I was a total nut because I, that a woman hadn't been standing up in that room who was not delivering lunch or taking a message.

[00:23:37] Elizabeth:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:23:37] Anne Morriss:
Um, and we had a fantastic, we ended up having a fantastic relationship. Uh, they ended up referring to me as the Lady CEO in their portfolio, which I freaking loved. Uh, and, and it was, um, but it took us a while to all get to know each other. It took a willingness on their part to not turn me into cartoon. It also took a willingness on my part to not turn them into a cartoon, which I was tempted to do on so many days when the relationship wasn't working. Um, so I just, I, this is a thread around how do we get you into a mindset where, like, this is one of your entrepreneurial challenges, but you are up for the task, Elizabeth.

[00:24:23] Elizabeth:
That's a great idea. And I even flirted with that idea before, uh, when you say, um, like gamify it a little bit, um, like taking my name off my email signature, um, and just being this person behind an email and seeing what kind of response I get from that. Um… You know, I’ve, kind of just being this mysterious person, you know, to the insurance company that like, oh, this is just, you know, any other person that's emailing.

Um, and so I, I thought about that, but I didn't know if that would lose the personal touch. But, um, I think that's, it's worth a, you know, it's, it's definitely worth a shot, like, you know, having some mysterious male assistant. You know, that can email or call and be, you know, whatever that may look like to try to get—

[00:25:09] Frances Frei:
Gender-neutral name.

[00:25:10] Elizabeth:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:10] Anne Morriss:
Send you a gender neutral name where it's not clear, I mean…

[00:25:14] Elizabeth:
Yeah.

[00:25:14] Anne Morriss:
Um, or you use your initial, you know, you have, you, your, your email address is e-whatever. I mean, what I love about this is this is also… You’re running experiments.

[00:25:25] Elizabeth:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:25:25] Anne Morriss:
Uh, you're running experiments in, in, you know, slipping this incredible human Elizabeth under the fence. Um, and you may, you may have to get a little squirrel-y to get under that fence.

[00:25:39] Elizabeth:
Yeah.

[00:25:39] Anne Morriss:
Um, and, and, and around that bias, Um, are there other experiments you've considered?

[00:25:46] Elizabeth:
And as far as like getting new clients, I've even thought about, well, do I, you know, sub out that meeting work, you know, to my public adjuster friend, you know, or, you know, whatever that may look like. Like, “Hey, go meet this man and y'all can do whatever it is.” And then, you know, he can just kind of be the out there person and then I can just be back here and they can call me whenever it comes too. But like that initial, initial sales pitch, would it be better coming from a man, you know, than me?

[00:26:17] Anne Morriss:
Well, can, can I respond to that?

[00:26:18] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:26:18] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Like, so I think, um…

[00:26:20] Frances Frei:
We both got very excited.

[00:26:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Like your alliance with this partner who really sees your value. Um, I think is a really exciting starting place. So, like, what other experiments could you run with him? Uh, this public adjuster. Um, in, in, in my own case, when I was building this, there was a point in the business when it was clear to me that I needed a male sales guy.And I found someone—

[00:26:47] Frances Frei:
Right outta Central, right outta Central Casting.

[00:26:49] Anne Morriss:
Right outta central Casting. He was gorgeous, charismatic, super talented. We became dear, dear friends and, uh, partners in building this business. And it was just a super, I, you know, I had pushed against people, w—you know, willing to accept me as a messenger. And I was like, this, let's, let's just do it this way. Um, and I never looked back.

[00:27:10] Frances Frei:
Well, and here's the part, Elizabeth, that I just got excited when you were saying it. You're looking for someone. Like, you are the intermediary for people and you make it better. You create a win-win.

[00:27:19] Anne Morriss:
Correct.

[00:27:19] Frances Frei:
And now you are looking for an intermediary who can make it better and look for a win-win. I think it makes perfect sense.

[00:27:26] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:27:27] Frances Frei:
I, and I also don't think it's probably just the gender of this person. I think there's probably some other things going on, but I love the idea of you having an intermediary. You know, sometimes when we're a small biz, a one person shop, we like to give the illusion of a larger business, and that is we create a network.

And so you have this person as part of your network. But you know what? I can imagine you having five people as part of your network. Again, because you don't have to improve the quality of what you do, we just wanna improve the reach of what you do. So of course you wanna have a network, and if the network are people that you can leverage and that they can understand you and then they can describe who you are, I think it makes perfect sense. So I love that on the sales for the contractor side.

[00:28:20] Elizabeth:
Okay. Okay. I just didn't, I didn't want it to seem like, you know, I have to rely on, you know, this guy to like go. It's like I didn't wanna seem—

[00:28:29] Frances Frei:
No. It’s here’s, here’s the, yeah. Here’s the way to think about it, Elizabeth. You are gonna have 10 or a hundred times the business that you do now, and you will not be able to be both the deliverer of that business and the head of sales. So if you are gonna both be the head of sales and the chief content officer, that can only be for a very small business. But your ambition is greater than that.

[00:28:54] Elizabeth:
Yes.

[00:28:54] Frances Frei:
So given that you, we know you need more people on the sales side, that's what you're doing now.

[00:28:59] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:28:59] Frances Frei:
So it's, it's, I want you to be unapologetic about it.

[00:29:02] Elizabeth:
Okay?

[00:29:02] Frances Frei:
You’re building your sales network.

[00:29:04] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:29:06] Anne Morriss:
And we wanna, um, give you, like, like there, you've given us casually, as an aside, like 10 great ideas that have occurred to you and you've discarded. Uh, and I, I also wanna give you license to run real experiments around those ideas.

[00:29:23] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:29:23] Anne Morriss:
You don't know if they're good ideas or bad ideas, um, but it doesn't mean that you are signing up permanently for this. So, like, what would a good experiment look like? Can you run a quick pilot on whether, you know, partnering in this way or signing an email in this way is helpful to you. There's no way to know until you try.

[00:29:43] Elizabeth:
Okay.

[00:29:43] Anne Morriss:
So Elizabeth, we could have this conversation all day with you about how to build this business. Um, but let me check in. How are you feeling about slaying the dragon of gender?

[00:29:56] Elizabeth:
I feel a lot better about it now. You know? Um, I really, the, the biggest thing is like, don't be apologetic for having to do the tricks and the things and in order to get my point across, or my value across, like if I have to use somebody, use somebody. Like, it just helps me.

[00:30:13] Frances Frei:
Part of your network. Part of your network. Yeah.

[00:30:15] Elizabeth:
Yes.

[00:30:15] Anne Morriss:
It's part of the game. Um, this what's fun about business, it's a game, and the presence of bias is part of the game. Yeah.

[00:30:21] Elizabeth:
Yeah, yeah. And I think I was always scared to kind of admit that and be like, “I don't need anyone. I got it. I'm a strong independent woman.” Like whatever. Like if they don't like me, so be it. And so I think kind of, uh,being okay and open to that and, you know, unapologetic about it is okay.

[00:30:40] Frances Frei:
It’s… Yeah. And Elizabeth, what I like about that is that you could be a strong, independent woman and have a one woman show, or you could learn how to build a network and be part of a larger organization, and you are destined for a larger organization.

[00:30:53] Elizabeth:
Yes, I hope so. I sure hope so. I'm gonna definitely restructure some things and kind of see how it goes.

[00:31:01] Anne Morriss:
Awesome, Elizabeth, thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure. Will you let us know how it goes?

[00:31:05] Elizabeth:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I just wanna thank you guys so much. I listen to your podcast on runs in the morning, and it's just, it's so helpful. Like one of the biggest things I wanna say is like the meeting thing, I used to have meetings that were just three hours, four hours long with some of my clients and I'm like,“You’ve got, like… We’ve got to get a plan together.” So I really have implemented that. So I wanna thank you guys so much for that as well.

[00:31:29] Frances Frei:
Oh, good. We love it.

[00:31:29] Anne Morriss:
Oh, we love hearing that. That's awesome.

Well that was fun.

[00:31:47] Frances Frei:
That was totally fun. I'm so rooting for her.

[00:31:50] Anne Morriss:
I know. I'm, I'm not rooting for a tree to fall in the house, but I know—

[00:31:54] Frances Frei:
I know who to call.

[00:31:55] Anne Morriss:
I know who to call. Um, Frances, another thing that I was thinking about during this conversation is a phrase we use a lot. And you know that I love, which is to engage with the best version of someone. And I think it's another useful tool to have in the toolkit for situations like this. So can you just explain what we mean by that and maybe give us some tactics on how to go down that road?

[00:32:20] Frances Frei:
So I’ve become aware of it. It was something I was doing without being aware. I became aware of it when I was coaching faculty on teaching, and a student would make a comment that was on the side of aggressive and that if you wanted to, you could have gotten into a defensive crouch and battled the student. Or you could interact with the best version of the student and all of the aggression went away and it just went to the learning.

[00:32:50] Anne Morriss:
Mm-Hmm.

[00:32:51] Frances Frei:
And so I think here, you know, I, I'm sure people say dopey things to her. She told us they do. And they say dopey things about gender, and so we can choose to engage with that. Or the version of moving the learning forward for her is how do we get better claims adjustments.

[00:33:09] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I think the, the power of this conversation is about getting in touch with the agency that we have as individuals to chip away at our experience, and it is my experience of myself that we often have more agency than we realize.

[00:33:30] Frances Frei:
I think that's, I think that's right. And I was really, you know, you and I have this conversation of what do we do at the individual level and what do we do at the system level? And the truth is, the answer is always we need both. But at any moment in time, we should be in touch with our individual agency.

And then, yes, of course we're working to combat the systems thing so that it makes the need for individual agency less and less frequent. And at any moment in time, we wanna be able to have full access to our agency. And one of those things is the way in which I interact with you is gonna influence how you interact with me.

[00:34:04] Anne Morriss:
I know. That, that is, that is the mind blowing part of this. Um, absolutely.
[00:34:14] Frances Frei:
Well, thanks for listening, everybody, and we would love to hear from you. If you want to figure out your workplace problem together, please send us a message. You can email fixable@ted.com or call 234-FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:34:44] Anne Morriss:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris—

[00:34:49] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei.

[00:34:51] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hai Lash.

[00:35:01] Frances Frei:
This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

[00:35:10] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can please take a second to leave us a review, it really helps us make a great show.