How to manage multiple agendas — including your own (Transcript)

[00:00:02] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, my social media feed looks a little different from yours. My, mine is filled with, like, Philosopher Daily and The Secure Relationship, which is a great follow by the way. But yours is, like, AV equipment and—

[00:00:23] Frances Frei:
ESPN and the Brownville Maine Deer Pantry.

[00:00:27] Anne Morriss:
Deer. Live shots of deer eating.

[00:00:31] Frances Frei:
Making sure they eat in the winter, they get food. Yes, recommended.

[00:00:37] Anne Morriss:
But, so one phrase that will get passed around my feed every once in a while is “Check in on your strong friend.”

[00:00:46] Frances Frei:
I have no idea what that means.

[00:00:47] Anne Morriss:
Uh, which I'm gonna explain and explain why I love it, but it’s, it’s like, you know, you usually check in on your needier friends.

[00:00:56] Frances Frei:
Oh yes.

[00:00:56] Anne Morriss:
But you never check in on your strong friend.

[00:00:58] Frances Frei:
Oh, I don’t.

[00:00:59] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, so I love this one 'cause I'm sometimes that—

[00:01:04] Frances Frei:
Strong friend.

[00:01:04] Anne Morriss:
Strong friend, not always, but often that strong friend. But what I love about it is it's a reminder that the signals we send about being all set can sometimes get in the way of getting our needs met. And we can even confuse ourselves with these signals, and this phenomenon, it happens with friends, with our partners, but also at work.

[00:01:31] Frances Frei:
I, it resonates so deeply to me when I walk the halls at HBS and, you know, who am I gonna check in on? I, I'm now feeling very sheepish. I don't ever check in on the strong friends.

[00:01:43] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:01:43] Frances Frei:
I check in on, I have my like, list of people. I just wanna make sure they're okay. And so check in on your strong friend, make sure they're okay too. I love it.

[00:01:52] Anne Morriss:
Alright, well, let's get into it. Because I think this, this may show up in our next conversation.

I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.
[00:02:04] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor, and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:02:09] Anne Morriss:
And this is Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and good solutions are often just a single brave conversation away.

[00:02:22] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today, Anne?

[00:02:24] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we have someone on the show we're gonna be calling Kaitlyn, who's running into a problem I think a lot of listeners will relate to. Let's hear directly from her.

[00:02:33] Kaitlyn:
Hi Anne and Frances. Uh, my name is Kaitlyn and I work in an account-based marketing advertising company. My current challenge at work today is that I hold a director-level position, which I report, uh, to a vice president who in turn reports to the CEO of the company. On several occasions, the CEO has approached me to carry out a specific task, placing me in uncomfortable situations as I don't want to override my boss's directives. I would really appreciate if you could help me with this. Thank you.

[00:03:16] Anne Morriss:
Oof. This is, uh, this is awkward.

[00:03:18] Frances Frei:
I remember this, uh, I, I was helping a company and the CEO would skip over their direct team and go to the direct reports of the direct team. And if you wanna know how to make your direct team insane…

[00:03:35] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. How did that work out?

[00:03:37] Frances Frei:
Skip, did not work out. Uh, and I don't, the CEO is not intending to introduce madness, but it introduced madness, so I love that the caller is so sensitive to the trouble. I think the trouble would loom really large.

[00:03:54] Anne Morriss:
Alright, well, let's see if we can't head off some madness in this scenario.

Oh, Kaitlyn, welcome to Fixable.

[00:04:16] Kaitlyn:
Thank you so much for having me today, guys.

[00:04:21] Anne Morriss:
We’re really excited to get into this with you. So let's just get started. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do.

[00:04:27] Kaitlyn:
So I'm currently a marketing director at an account-based sales and data company. So my main responsibilities, it's crafting the strategy here in the US, uh, also supervising a team of a content creator and, I, a graphic designer in order to create all the branding of our company. And I also, I'm in charge of communications, uh, mostly external communications and how we craft our storytelling.

[00:05:02] Anne Morriss:
To, your, to future clients? Current clients?

[00:05:04] Kaitlyn:
Yes. To future and current clients.

[00:05:08] Anne Morriss:
Nice. Okay, so I, we heard your voicemail and we wanna really get into, um, the tension you're feeling between your CEO and your direct boss. So give us a sense of what's going on.

[00:05:19] Kaitlyn:
So my problem today is, uh, that I have a really close relationship with the CEO. We're both Mexicans and we have that culture understanding about how to do certain things, et cetera. And, uh, sometimes I feel like he is asking me to overstep my direct boss. Like for example, oh, you need to implement this sales or marketing strategy without getting my boss's approval, or budget stuff, things like that, that it's always a conversation that I will leave with my boss.
Sometimes, like, I don't know how to approach that issue. I don't know, uh, like how to communicate to both of them. Like, “Hey, please, like, don't put me in the situation that I'm in the middle.” Like, to be honest, I, I'm not, I'm quite confused.

[00:06:16] Anne Morriss:
I can imagine. Um, give, tell us, um, like the last time this happened, just so we have some texture around the specifics. Can you, can you just walk us through what happened?

[00:06:30] Kaitlyn:
Sure. Uh, this happened, uh, just over a month ago that we are developing a new storytelling for a go to market strategy for 2024. And—

[00:06:41] Anne Morriss:
For your own company?

[00:06:43] Kaitlyn:
Yeah, for my own company.

[00:06:44] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:06:44] Kaitlyn:
Um, and I'm all, of course, we're working between the CEO, the VP of sales, the VP of marketing, myself, and other directors, and we came up with a great idea, et cetera. However, the CEO approached me directly and he was like, “Okay, uh, now you need to implement this company-wide.”

And I'm like, “Okay, but you don't have the buy-in from my boss.” Like that kind of, uh, instruction needs to come from him and not from you. Like I cannot overstep to what he's actually doing right now. Um, so I felt, like, very uncomfortable. I didn't know how to approach the situation. I didn't know how to communicate properly. Uh, it was weird.

[00:07:29] Anne Morriss:
Right. Yeah, the CEO walks in the room and pulls you aside and are like, “Hey, Kaitlyn,” and like, what happens? What happens to your head and like, what happens to your body?

[00:07:42] Kaitlyn:
For example, my relationship right now that I also have with my direct boss, that it's amazing. We, uh, have conversations every day. We talk about, like, when I'm not doing okay or if I need something, the same him, So it, it, it, it's like, okay, I don't wanna, like, break that trust and relationship.

[00:08:05] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:05] Kaitlyn:
Uh, that's how I feel. I'm like, okay, but, uh, whenever the CO uh, like wants to talk to me about this kind of situations, it's like, okay, I appreciate that you trust me, but there’s, like, your direct report is the vice president, not myself.
[00:08:23] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And you said when you, in the example, you just offered. It sounds like you, you did give him a little bit of this feedback or that was going through your head?

[00:08:34] Kaitlyn:
I did give him, uh, a little feedback. I told him like, okay, but did you talk to him already? Is he aware of this plan that you have? Have you reached out to him or set up a meeting? Can we like set up a meeting, uh, like the three of us? And he, and he's like, “No, no, no. He's gonna be fine.” So I was like, no. Like no, this shouldn't be the way it should be done. So in that case, I just went straight to my boss and, and like talked to him. “Hey, I don't wanna overstep you. He asked me to do this, but I know he wants this to be implemented, but I don't want to execute it without your feedback and your, like, opinion.”

[00:09:22] Anne Morriss:
And then what happened?

[00:09:22] Katilyn:
He got a little bit mad at the beginning. He was like, bit of like, “What's going on here? Like, why is he doing this?” And I'm like, “Okay, calm down. Nothing happened. I just came to you because I don't wanna, like, damage our relationship. But he definitely wants to do that. Uh, let's keep them, keep him happy and let's find a solution between us two.” And he agreed and we're like re, reviewing the whole strategy right now. And, uh, we are about to launch it, uh, within the next month.

[00:09:58] Anne Morriss:
Beautiful. That feels like a super productive resolution of the problem. Is a tension you're feeling now that it's gonna happen again?

[00:10:08] Kaitlyn:
Uh, I, I feel it's gonna happen every single time. Whenever, like some, if we have a budget conversation or, or if we want to launch a new project. I feel like he's gonna come direct, directly to me before talking, uh, to my boss.

[00:10:26] Frances Frei:
Uh, what's the relationship like between the, your VP and the CEO? Like, can you describe that dynamic?

[00:10:33] Kaitlyn:
They're very close. They talk every day. They, it's, I, I, I'd say that it's amazing. I think the only problem sometimes is that might be a little bit of a culture barrier and that sometimes, whenever the CEO wants to just express his ideas, it’s gonna be easy to come to me because we both are from the same country and we relate each other more easily probably than my boss that he's, uh, from the US.

[00:11:09] Frances Frei:
When the three of you are in communication, how often does that happen and what's that dynamic like?

[00:11:13] Kaitlyn:
Uh, this happens… So when the three of us, it's great. We talk a lot, uh, we discuss about new ideas, et cetera. But when it comes to execute something, uh, that's when, uh, the CEO comes directly to me.

[00:11:34] Frances Frei:
Okay.

[00:11:34] Anne Morriss:
And you have no reason to believe that your boss has gone to the CEO and said, “Knock it off”?

[00:11:42] Kaitlyn:
Uh, not yet. No. I, I, I've told my boss, like, again. I, I told him like probably two or three times like, “Hey, this is something that he asked, but I want you to be aware because I don't wanna be stuck in the middle and, uh, lose your trust and his trust.”

[00:12:00] Anne Morriss:
And what has been your boss's response?

[00:12:05] Kaitlyn:
Uh, that he really appreciates, uh, me coming directly to him and not ignoring him as a direct supervisor.

[00:12:15] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah. Super trust building.

[00:12:17] Kaitlyn:
Yep.

[00:12:17] Anne Morriss:
Um, what, what do you think, what's the cost from your perspective of not solving this problem?

[00:12:24] Katilyn:
Uh, that.

[00:12:14] Anne Morriss:
—but just for you personally.

[00:12:29] Kaitlyn:
That it's hard for me to see any growth potential because I, it's like, okay, yeah. She is the person that the CEO trusts the most. But they're not empowering me to get a promotion, for example, or to find like another, like how do I get into a VP or senior director level? I feel everyone's comfortable with me being very proactive, me being stuck in the middle and et cetera, but yeah. She’s awesome. She's performing, but I don't know. I, I feel like they're not talking to me like, “Okay, we're doing this because we want to empower you more and this is a path we, we want you to take.”

[00:13:13] Anne Morriss:
Right, right. It's casual.

[00:13:15] Kaitlyn:
Yes.

[00:13:15] Anne Morriss:
It’s a casual stretch assignment, not a formal development path.

[00:13:18] Kaitlyn:
Yes.

[00:13:19] Anne Morriss:
Got it. I just wanna go back to a previous statement. You talked about some other attributes. Um, of, uh, that define who you are in the workplace. So you're proactive, you're a problem solver, you're entrepreneurial. Um, so indulge me in a little bit of self-promotion. So what else is on that list? Like, what makes you awesome to work with?

[00:13:43] Kaitlyn:
Um. I'm always fixing problems. Uh, as a good marketer, I wear multiple hats.

[00:13:51] Anne Morriss:
That was my suspicion. Alright, two more questions and then we're gonna, we’re, we're gonna dive in and make progress.

[00:13:58] Kaitlyn:
Awesome.

[00:13:58] Anne Morriss:
Um, have you experienced this kind of tension in other jobs or in other relationships in your life? Does this feel really new?

[00:14:09] Kaitlyn:
Mm. No. No. Not another job. Um, in relationships, being a problem solver, yes.

[00:14:16] Anne Morriss:
And getting stuck in the middle?

[00:14:18] Kaitlyn:
Yes.

[00:14:18] Anne Morriss:
Is that familiar to you?

[00:14:21] Kaitlyn:
Family and friends.

[00:14:21] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Um, Frances, where are we?

[00:14:26] Frances Frei:
Uh, we have a superstar employee, um, and as a result of her being so darn good in such ambiguous circumstances, she's being over-relied on and it's got a sister problem, which is, you're so competent. Are we overlooking your needs? There are two problems. One problem is your career path. Um, which is that it's, it's a little too vague right now. Like, it's not like, you know, I need to do these things in order to be promoted. So we could use some formality in the career path. And then the other one is the interpersonal dynamic. What’s really interesting is that each dyad is really strong. So I see it as two issues, and, I, they might be feeding each other, but I, I, I hope in our conversation today, we can solve both.

[00:15:25] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I, I love that.

[00:15:26] Frances Frei:
Does that, does that resonate?

[00:15:28] Kaitlyn:
Yes. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:15:28] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:31] Anne Morriss:
Yes. Does that feel true to you?

[00:15:32] Kaitlyn:
Yes, a hundred percent.

[00:15:35] Anne Morriss:
How does it feel to have that said out loud?

[00:15:38] Kaitlyn:
It feels actually, like, good, like it, it's the first time that I, someone tells me that I have the sister problem. Um, and I'm trying to fix everyone.

[00:15:52] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. Alright, Frances, you got a little momentum. So where does your, where does your mind go in solutions here?

[00:15:57] Frances Frei:
Yeah, so I'm gonna do the, uh, career advancement one first, which is, I think you want to schedule time, and I would do it in proper sequencing, so with your boss and, uh, say, you know, “I wanna reserve time to very selfishly talk about me.”

And so schedule that for next Monday, a week from Monday, whenever it is. But I want you to code it. It's not “Can I have a minute?” It's an hour. And you are asking selfishly to talk about you, and then you wanna talk about your career advancement. So I want you to stay as long as you can on that and ask, you don't have to solve the problems.

In fact, ask your boss, like, “What does career advancement look like for me if I was more ambitious than that?” Whatever they say, “Imagine that I'm more ambitious than that. How might I accelerate that?” So you want to like, what does an accelerated career path look like for you? 'Cause you're willing to do whatever they put on the list, I am sure you will do. Um, but what isn't happening is that there, nobody is formalizing what those things are. So we're just using you as a great utility player. So I would ask, what does it take? And you know, I think you're two titles away from the VP, is that right? The—

[00:17:27] Kaitlyn:
Um, yeah, two titles away.

[00:17:30] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So I would like, what does it look like for the next one? And then I wanna be a VP one day. Like, let's look at both of them.

[00:17:38] Anne Morriss:
So what's your reaction to this idea?

[00:17:42] Kaitlyn:
I love it. I am actually taking notes.

[00:17:45] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:17:45] Anne Morriss:
Good. Um, and then you're, you're coaching on the how I think is really important. Yeah.

[00:17:52] Frances Frei:
I, I, I almost want you to just imagine that you are your favorite person to do things for, and you're like, look, I wanna make sure this person is, is thriving. So have that little bit of distance so it doesn't feel selfish, and I would, you're striving for as much clarity as possible. So if they give you clarity, great. If they don't give clarity, you can ask for, “So what would that look like?”

And just keep your follow up questions so that you have the clarity and then you can say, “So let me play this back to you. Is this right?” And then. after you do that, “Do you mind if I write this up and um, just so that you can have a sense of it?” So you're gonna do it through them, and then you want him to show it to the CEO. Even though you have a direct relationship with the CEO EO, you don't wanna go to the CEO with this because you wanna model. Correct, uh, correct behavior. Yeah.

[00:18:48] Anne Morriss:
Uh, it's a beautiful chance to, to reinforce correct behavior. And I think, Frances, what I think you're circling and is definitely a very strong pattern in the work that we do is that for sure in a small professional service firm like this, no one has thought about this for you. These are environments where we have to provide the structure, momentum, clarity.

And so, and this, this is the cleanest, most direct, most empowering way to do it, is to go in and start the conversation. At the moment you feel like you have the, you know, social and professional equity to spend, to spend it in this way and then reinforce the kind of appropriate lines of behavior here is, uh, is a, is an awesome opportunity.

[00:19:38] Frances Frei:
And, and, I, before you go, I just wanna say it's not the add-on at the end of an agenda. It's not, it's, it's its own meeting. It's for its own stated purpose. Because I want both of you to get used to the fact that you have needs, you don't just solve problems, but you are a problem. I don't mean it in the negative way, but you too need investment. You're investing in everything else. And so that's where I really wanna stress that, that formality. And then I also really want you to verbally be able to summarize it, to say, “If I have it right…” and then be able to write it up so that they can edit it.

[00:20:15] Anne Morriss:
I just wanna underscore the, that beautiful observation, which is that when you are in that role as a fixer in a family, in an organization, on a team, the signaling can be to other members of the team that you’re, you’re all set in terms of needs, and so it’s, the, your own needs may not be particularly visible to you if you're in that posture, and they're definitely not visible to the people around you.

[00:20:44] Kaitlyn:
No, I love it. And a lot of what you've been, uh, telling me, it makes a lot of, like, it makes sense a hundred percent that I'm always fixing someone's problems, but I'm not, uh, being aware of what are my problems, but not in a negative, uh, way. It's just like, okay, what I need, what needs to be addressed for me?

[00:21:08] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:21:08] Kaitlyn:
Sounds like a plan.

[00:21:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:21:10] Anne Morriss:
Let’s go to problem two.

[00:21:11] Kaitlyn:
Okay.

[00:21:11] Anne Morriss:
Um, I, I wanna liberate you from feeling responsible for their relationship. And so here, here's an idea and I'm interested in what both of you think about it. In your conversation with your CEO, I almost want you to say, great. Okay. Whatever it is, whatever his ideas, whatever your, your answer’s yes.

He's the CEO of the company. Your job is not to get him to behave better. You don't have that kind of either formal or informal authority to change the way he's interacting, uh, with your boss. But that so that the tension is, gets removed from those conversations and then you continue to walk right into your boss's office and say, “Okay, now let's decide together. Is this what I should be working on? Like what? What should be my priority?” This is now your boss's problem to make sense of it all. And then at some point he's gonna have to figure out how to go to his boss and interrupt this flow of conversation. But that's not your problem in the meantime. And I wanna—

[00:22:15] Frances Frei:
Nor is it anything you have to apologize for.

[00:22:17] Anne Morriss:
And I think given your, like, talent and competence, which is like radiating from the screen, I think the risk of you damaging your, your potential or status or opportunity in this environment?

[00:22:34] Frances Frei:
Super low.

[00:22:35] Anne Morriss:
Is super low. Alright? What's everybody's reaction to this idea?

[00:22:40] Frances Frei:
I'll let you go first.

[00:22:41] Kaitlyn:
Um, yeah, it's, it's amazing like just to hear that. Yeah. Stop saying, “I'm sorry.” Just say, “Okay, I'll do it. Yeah. Okay. Whatever.” But then, like, pass the problem to my boss, it's not my problem anymore and not trying to fix the way they communicate or not, it's okay. I was asked to do this. I'm telling you what, it, where it should be in my list of priorities.

[00:23:11] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, you're my boss. Tell me like, do you want me to put this to the top of the list? Number two, number three, like, this is fundamentally his problem, not your problem. Like, that, there’s another agenda item that is now on your collective list.

[00:23:28] Frances Frei:
And then if he ever expresses displeasure at, the, you being, the, the letter is being addressed to you. Be like, “Oh, I know who you should talk to about that. Not me!”

[00:23:34] Anne Morriss:
It's not, it's not you. Yeah.

[00:23:38] Frances Frei:
It's not me! So I, I think having the clarity in your mind that the dysfunction is in their relationship. It's not in your relationship,

[00:23:46] Anne Morriss:
But the follow up is that dysfunction is not your responsibility.

[00:23:50] Frances Frei:
And it's not your responsibility. Yeah.

[00:23:53] Kaitlyn:
I love it. I really love that. Uh, and you guys being able to tell me about, make me aware of this. You think it's just a workplace, uh, situation that you're stuck in the middle between two powerful men, but at the end of the day, it's not, it's something that they need to fix.

[00:24:13] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. Did we achieve our objective, Kaitlyn?

[00:24:18] Kaitlyn:
Yes, a hundred percent. I really appreciate, uh, your time, your advice, uh, and everything, like, it makes, it makes now a, a lot of sense, like more sense of how to approach this kind of situation.

[00:24:35] Frances Frei:
Tell us and the listeners, what's your plan?

[00:24:36] Kaitlyn:
My plan is to schedule ASAP a meeting with my boss.

[00:24:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:43] Anne Morriss:
And what's on the agenda?

[00:24:48] Kaitlyn:
Uh, the agenda. It's how I, I'm very ambitious and how I can get to the next level, uh, and then start talking about what's the plan for me.

[00:24:58] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:58] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. Kaitlyn, thank you so much. It was such a joy to have you on the show, and I think this is a problem that's really gonna resonate with listeners.

[00:25:07] Kaitlyn:
No, thank you both, uh, for having me today, and for, uh, giving me all this amazing advices.

[00:25:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Please keep us updated on that, how it goes.

[00:25:16] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Let us know how it goes.

[00:25:17] Kaitlyn:
I will.

[00:25:35] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, you know I love young organizations. I love small organizations. Uh, one of the things that you often give up is, is real structure and rigor around advancement. And, um, it, that can create tension, particularly if you're younger, particularly if, um, you're a woman, if you, like, identify as, as an outgroup versus the ingroup running the organization in some way.

And so, you know, finding your way into that conversation can have a huge impact. In, in my experience as a coach, it can, it can take a year off the, a year off the promotion timeline.

[00:26:22] Frances Frei:
That, a year, yeah. And what I find is that particularly for fixers, we fix problems.

[00:26:27] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:26:28] Frances Frei:
But that means we have to present ourselves as a problem.

[00:26:31] Anne Morriss:
Yes.

[00:26:32] Frances Frei:
Otherwise nobody fixes it. So we only address, like, it's, it's rare in these small scrappy organizations that they're fixing non-problems. Uh, and so that’s our—

[00:26:43] Anne Morriss:
Putting that they're, that they're getting out of head and thinking about a multi-year career trajectory. There’s always something else.
[00:16:56] Frances Frei:
There’s always. There’s always something else on the to-do list.

[00:26:53] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So we have to have the audacity.

[00:26:58] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:26:58] Frances Frei:
Uh, to put ourselves on the, to-do list, and that's hard for people who are used to taking care of other things and taking care of others. I feel like we made a lot of progress in this conversation and I'm very grateful to Kaitlyn for the gift she just gave to us.

[00:27:15] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, Thanks, Kaitlyn. You, you saved me on, on therapy for this week.

[00:27:22] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:27:26] Anne Morriss:
Thanks for listening. Everyone. We wanna hear from you too. If you have a work problem you're feeling stuck on, send us a message. Email us at fixable@ted.com. Call us at 234-FIXABLE, that's 234-349-2253. And now you can even shoot us a text there too. We would love to hear from you.

[00:27:46] Frances Frei:
And we promise one of us will identify with your problem.

[00:28:05] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

[00:28:10] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei.

[00:28:12] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Joey Fischground, Banban Cheng, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hai Lash.

[00:28:23] Frances Frei:
This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard. If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and maybe share this episode with a friend who could use help to speak up for themself.

[00:28:36] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you're listening to us on Spotify, we have a question for you. Check out the episode description to see what it is and weigh in.