How to be a leader in your workplace (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we get to explore inclusion, which is a topic we've gone after on Fixable before.

[00:00:08] Frances Frei:
Oh, yeah. So inclusion is the only thing that I am aware of that can have employee engagement and, um, business performance go up 200 to 500 percent with no new people and no new technology. In fact, I can't think of anything else that is close. Um, and so that as, you know, as an operations professor. It just, it like, it quickens my pulse like no other topic.

[00:00:44] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Uh, what is this operations professor doing talking about DEI issues? And what are these two very white women doing going deep on these issues? I think is a question we get. And so there, there is this beautiful, of course, moral payoff, human payoff of creating environments where everyone who walks into those environments can thrive. But I do think something that's getting lost in all of the thrash and churn of this current DEI debate is that inclusion helps you win.

[00:01:22] Frances Frei:
Thump. Like if win is, if win is so far in my rearview mirror. It, it lets us thump. And achievement and sentiment – because it's also very difficult to find something that drives both – go up 200 to 500 percent if we get inclusion right.

[00:01:41] Anne Morriss:
Distinct from diversity.

[00:01:42] Frances Frei:
Very distinct from diversity. Uh, in fact diversity, equity, and inclusion. We have always said the most important letter of those three is the “I.” If we are inclusive, I promise you will attract all of the most magnificent diversity that you can. Whereas when we concentrate on diversity, we may or may not end up inclusive.
[00:02:07] Anne Morriss:
Alright, so today we're going deep into the hallways of a middle school, but what was interesting to us about this conversation and why we wanted to talk to this caller is because the emotions that are showing up for him are the same emotions we're seeing in organizations today. And even if our listeners are not feeling them themselves, somebody in their organization is. One of their colleagues, many of their colleagues are feeling this. And so I want to get into it and see if we can't make some progress today.

[00:02:38] Frances Frei:
I, and I would also say the reason that this is a beautiful illustrative example is that in the broader world, when people get upset about DEI, they almost are always thinking about education and their kids’ education. We’re going right to the center of it.

[00:02:56] Anne Morriss:
All right. Well, let's go see what we can learn and see if we can fix some things along the way.

[00:03:00] Frances Frei:
I, I believe we will.

[00:03:13] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable. I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:03:17] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:03:22] Anne Morriss:
On this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just a single, brave conversation away.

[00:03:30] Frances Frei:
Who's joining us today, Anne?

[00:03:32] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we have a middle school Spanish teacher who we're going to be calling Al. It's not his real name. He just started his third year in the classroom, but he's eager to take on even more responsibility, especially in some exciting and, frankly, tension- filled conversations that are happening around DEI. So let's hear directly from him what's going on…

[00:03:59] Al:
Hi, Anne and Frances. This is Al. I'm a teacher at a public middle school in Massachusetts. My principal introduced an initiative this past year to confront white supremacy and racism in the school systems, and I really support it. But I've been encountering some difficult situations regarding my conversations with colleagues about the ways in which racism shows up in our interpersonal lives, but also in our classrooms.

I'm hoping that you can provide some insight and some advice on how to have difficult and productive conversations with colleagues who are both my senior, um, and people that I share a lot of space with.

[00:04:44] Frances Frei:
Oh, there's so much to unpack here. One, when you're relatively junior – he's only been there for three years – how do you have outsized influence?

[00:04:52] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:04:52] Frances Frei:
Is it even possible? Should it be one of our ambitions? And then two, the term white supremacy, it's highly charged. I mean, you got to imagine that these are delicate conversations that he's trying to engage in. And by the way, when he's talking about white supremacy, I don't think he's talking about overt racism, which is, I think, the more historical understanding of that idea. Instead, I think he means something more structural about the ways we continue to privilege whiteness in our workplaces.

[00:05:19] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I, I agree. And I, I think that's a really important distinction, and probably part of what is making these conversations hard for Al.

[00:05:26] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:05:27] Anne Morriss:
Language is a living, breathing currency. Words make communication possible, of course, but they can also get in the way of real conversation.

[00:05:35] Frances Frei:
Yes. So it's a very worthy question. Even if you're not a middle school teacher. And I think the focus is: how do we discuss sensitive topics in a way that makes us all better as opposed to being polarizing? And, how do we make collective progress on hard problems when we're relatively new to the party?

[00:05:53] Anne Morriss:
It's a great question.

[BREAK]

[00:06:11] Anne Morriss:
Al, welcome to Fixable.

[00:06:12] Al:
Thank you so much.

[00:06:14] Anne Morriss:
We're really thrilled to have you.

[00:06:16] Al:
I'm excited to dive in.

[00:06:18] Anne Morriss:
So first, uh, we know from your voicemail that we may be getting into issues of race and identity. So just for the record, these are three white people who may be having a conversation about race today. Uh, Al, are there any other identities that you hold that you think might be material to the conversation?

[00:06:37] Al:
Definitely. I mean, cis, white, hetero, male, um, and all of those things are really central to the discussion that I think we're going to endeavor on today.

[00:06:49] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. let's, let's get right into it, Al. So, if this conversation were to go wildly successful for you, what would you be walking away with?

[00:07:00] Al:
I think that part of my objective is to come away with small strategies that I can use to have difficult and productive discussions with colleagues that will open the door for longer term reflections. So I'm not expecting us to solve the issue of white supremacy in education, but I certainly hope to open up some doors to conversations that will put us on that path.

[00:07:30] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. So let's start with, with your role in the school, and I'm particularly interested in the, in the hierarchy piece. But just tell us what you do on a daily basis.

[00:07:41] Al:
Yeah. I'm a recently initiated teacher at a public school in Massachusetts. So, I only have a few years under my belt as a full time teacher managing classrooms of middle schoolers. Uh…

[00:07:54] Anne Morriss:
Whoa.

[00:07:56] Al:
And yeah, it's a really lively experience.

[00:07:59] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:07:59] Al:
Uh, and I came into the district as a Spanish teacher without much training, and in the process of the past two years, the school has really been endeavoring to tackle some larger systemic issues that aren't unique to, to our school, but definitely play a major role in in our community. And so, as an entry level teacher, I'm listening a lot.

[00:08:22] Anne Morriss:
Yep.

[00:08:23] Al:
I’m trying to get a feel for what the, the community is like and how the staff operates. Um… But the administration, at the same time, is pushing us all to work together to address some larger systemic issues.

[00:08:38] Anne Morriss:
Got it. Well, let's, I'd love a little, and even just personally, this is not for the art of radio, which we are, we are n—

[00:08:45] Frances Frei:
Novices.

[00:08:46] Anne Morriss:
New at it, at practicing. Um, but a little texture about what your day is like. So you teach Spanish to middle school. That's most of what you're doing on site. Is that accurate?

[00:08:57] Al:
Right. So I teach 6th and 8th grade and, um, outside of my classroom duties, I also coach a sports team, I run the podcast club, and I run the banned books club. So, lots of extracurriculars on top of the—

[00:09:15] Anne Morriss:
Nice.

[00:09:15] Al:
—daily classroom experience. And, yeah, it’s, it’s a long day at the end, but, um, pretty fun.

[00:09:21] Anne Morriss:
Alright, so let's, let's get into the reason you called. Um, tell us a little bit more about these, I'm gonna call them difficult conversations.

[00:09:32] Al:
Yeah, so…

[00:09:32] Anne Morriss:
Give us, give us a little context. Who's having them, why, who's showing up? Are they mandatory? What's the topic?

[00:09:41] Al:
So this past year, the principal and the administration at the school I work at, um, introduced a topic that I think a lot of educators think about, but we don't often take serious action towards. They discussed the fact that white supremacy is built into the American public education system, and that we have a responsibility to not only reflect on how that shows up in our lesson plans and in our classroom management skills but also to take action to, and fight back against it, um, personally and in the community.

And at the beginning, you know, the topic is obviously accepted by the staff. But when I started to have discussions with colleagues or just, uh, tried to be more cognizant of it in my daily life, watching other people teach or just witnessing them act in school, I realized that a lot of them were reluctant to really dig in and be self-critical in productive ways.

And the reason that I'm calling is because I'm not entirely sure how to have a productive conversation with colleagues who are often 10, 20 years my senior about a topic that a lot of people get very defensive around and that really involves checking your own biases and exploring ways to push back on them.

[00:11:17] Anne Morriss:
Um, just so I can visualize this, how many faculty, what's the, what's the number of people we're talking about? That's, that is being invited to participate in this conversation.

[00:11:29] Al:
It's about a hundred of us.

[00:11:32] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:11:33] Al:
About a hundred faculty, um, give or take maybe 20 people who are part time or work between schools or are district-wide employees.

[00:11:44] Anne Morriss:
Great. A hundred's a nice round number.

[00:11:47] Al:
Yeah.

[00:11:47] Anne Morriss:
What percentage of the hundred is resisting the, this conversation?

[00:11:52] Al:
Uh, my best guess is probably that about 10 percent are... resistant in—

[00:12:04] Anne Morriss:
Like actively resistant,

[00:12:04] Al:
—in some sort, active way. Yeah.

[00:12:06] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:12:06] Al:
They probably don't think that this is true or a necessary step to take.

[00:12:13] Anne Morriss:
Okay.

[00:12:13] Al:
But I would say a larger percentage, maybe another 10 or 15 more probably don't think of themselves as being a part of the problem in a way that prevents them from being part of the solution.

[00:12:30] Anne Morriss:
Resistant or ambivalent to the point where they're just not being helpful.

[00:12:35] Al:
Exactly.

[00:12:16] Anne Morriss:
Okay. We're going to call this group the skeptics.

[00:12:40] Al:
I like that.

[00:12:41] Anne Morriss:
So if one of the skeptics were part of this conversation, how do you think they would explain their resistance?

[00:12:51] Al:
I think they would probably say that calling the, the American public education system, white supremacist is too far, that there is racism in the country, but that we in the public school systems are actively working against it. And that what we have done so far is being erased by this initiative.

[00:13:20] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm. Is it people not showing up for the conversation, or not showing up for the staff meeting or not participating actively in the small group follow-ups or chatter in the teacher's lounge. How is the skepticism presenting?

[00:13:36] Al:
Yeah, uh, I mean, it's all of the above. The most clear example for me when, when we were just starting these conversations, the principal was giving their introduction to the problem and a senior teacher at the school who I was sitting at a table with was making these side conversation jokes with me, which was extremely uncomfortable about a hat that I was wearing, which is kind of fuzzy, round, flat on the top, and he interpreted it as an ethnic hat of some sort that he associated with Pakistan. So he was saying, “Oh, are you going to Pakistan with that hat?” And I'm sitting there, thinking about white supremacy in the education system and how we can push back on it and be part of the solution, and one of the most senior staff members at the school is trying to make a joke to me about a piece of clothing that I’m wearing that he thinks is foreign. And I don’t even know if to call it a microaggression, or y’know, an ignorant statement, but just using those stereotypes and, um, pejorative ideas about others.

[00:14:57] Anne Morriss:
Right. And how do these attitudes show up in the classroom? Can you give us some insight into that?

[00:15:03] Al:
So, for example, I, I work closely with this other Spanish teacher and have noticed there are students of color who are clearly getting attention, um, from, from her in ways that the white students are not, basically. Um, she is trying to teach her lesson and somebody is having a side conversation and without even looking at the classroom, she will call out the name of a non-white student and tell them to stop talking.

And frequently, they're not the person who is being disruptive. So, really clearly their mind is set that certain students in the classroom are the problematic, um, behaviors. And uh… So I've tried to have conversations that push teachers to reflect on what the student is dealing with or the fact that they weren’t the one that was disruptive at all in those moments.

[00:16:11] Anne Morriss:
So how, how were those outreaches received by your colleagues?

[00:16:15] Al:
In this relationship specifically, the person is very resistant to taking any responsibility and is very quick to put the responsibility on the student and/or on the administration for not imposing consequences that would solve the problem. Um, and it really folds back into the discussion we're having around the expectations the, the students of color specifically in, at a disadvantage when operating in the classroom. And therein lies the, the jump that I'm struggling to make.

[00:16:52] Anne Morriss:
And if you're going to make the case for the payoff, if everyone gets on board, what language comes to mind for you?

[00:17:00] Al:
I mean, I'd say that the biggest payoff is that we see more success. If we are successful in taking on this antiracist approach, then we will see a flourishing of different personalities and talents and skills that are latent in our students because we haven't been able to encourage their flourishing.

[00:17:25] Anne Morriss:
Uh, Frances, any additional questions and then we… Tell us where we are.

[00:17:30] Frances Frei:
Yeah, so, uh, here’s where I think we are, which is really a beautiful illustration of the need for difficult conversations and probably the b—most charged context for difficult conversations. This is a so super varsity sport for this particular context. So I'm, I'm excited, of course, optimistic about diving in, but this is the need for and the difficulty of having difficult conversations.
[00:18:02] Anne Morriss:
All right. Where do you want to start?

[00:18:04] Frances Frei:
So there's a couple of places. The first one is that when someone doesn't do the thing, it’s always one of three reasons: they don't know how; they’re not motivated to; or they know how, they’re motivated to, but they don't have permission to.

What we call capability, motivation, and license, and it's work done by our friend and colleague, Ryan Buell. And it's, so, anytime, you know, a group of employees is falling short, it's always one of those three. And the reason it's important to pinpoint it, and this was, I think, part of Anne's exploration with you, the prescriptions are very, very different depending on which one it is.

And so, you know, when you were saying, you were talking to the other Spanish teacher, and you were almost approaching it as a capability gap. Right? And you were trying to educate, I'm sure, through a Socratic method of questioning and “have you considered”, and that will help somebody solve a capability gap, but it won't help somebody solve a motivation gap, and it won't help somebody solve a license gap.

So, one of the questions I had is, now that you've heard this language of don't have the capability to do it, don't have the motivation to do it, don't have the license to do it, and that beautifully vivid example of the other Spanish teacher. What's your best guess of the diagnosis?

[00:19:30] Al:
A hundred percent: it's the capable and unmotivated.

[00:19:34] Frances Frei:
So let's focus on the motivation one. If we provide training to someone who doesn't have motivation, we can sometimes enrage them. So one of the things to think about in this context is to identify what will motivate, but also to identify what are the demotivators. So what are the things that come to your mind that would just take the wind out of the sail of motivation for this person?

[00:19:57] Al:
Well, I would say that there's something that's specific to this teacher but also I think is pretty universally applicable, which is that teachers are pretty overworked and underpaid as a rule, and so an easy way to demotivate education professionals is by saying here's another piece of work that you can take on without any real support, let alone compensation.

[00:20:27] Frances Frei:
So even a well-intentioned good person could end up feeling demotivated in that. So what we need are some best practices. Not the “brace yourself, it's going to be hard,” but “Goodness, isn't it worth it?” To, “Here's a cool thing I tried that ended up making all this other stuff easier.”

And this then makes me think of the interactions you are having with this person. So, you're probably talking to this person about their context, but to address their motivation, maybe you should be talking about your context. “In this way, when that was happening to me, here are two things you don't have to bother trying. I tried these two things, they were disasters. Here's a third one where I'm seeing early evidence of success.” And then you're inviting them in to co-produce the conversation. Now you can be affecting me on the motivation level versus, well, “Who is this upstart thr-third year teacher?”

[00:21:32] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, um, Al, what's the difference in tenure in this particular relationship?

[00:21:37] Al:
Yeah, that’s, um, I'm glad you brought it up because it's something that is really part of the core of my struggle here because this person specifically has more than 15 years of teaching experience on top of me. So, they're a 20 year vet. A lot of the teachers at the school have been around for decades. I'm definitely one of the new hires, and that's part of the struggle is how can I, without being arrogant or pompous or, uh, threatening, um, provide advice?

[00:22:19] Anne Morriss:
It, yeah, I mean, I think this is the whole problem, how. I mean, we would be having a very, I think, different conversation if we had the senior administrators.

[00:22:30] Frances Frei:
Oh, yeah.

[00:22:31] Anne Morriss:
Uh, and in, in the room right now, and I think we would push them on lots of these motivation issues and the job design 2023 of a middle school teacher and what's within everybody's control and what's not within their control. You have no control—

[00:22:29] Al:
Right.

[00:22:49] Anne Morriss:
—in this system. And is it fair to say that 25 percent are disproportionately older, more tenured, more senior?

[00:22:56] Al:
Exactly.

[00:22:57] Anne Morriss:
it's a serious 25 percent that is, that is resisting.

[00:23:00] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:00] Anne Morriss:
And I suspect from the minimal case facts, we have, relatively little has been done, uh, to acknowledge what you and Francis just acknowledged, which is that we're asking you to do more on top of a job design that is already quite difficult to execute, even without—I’m just going to channel some of our skeptics—even without this bullshit layered on, and this upstart in my classroom telling me how to teach. Which is not helping the situation.

[00:22:34] Al:
That's very accurate.

[00:23:35] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So…

[00:22:37] Anne Morriss:
So Frances.

[00:22:39] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:39] Anne Morriss:
We have this extraordinary human.

[00:23:41] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:23:42] Anne Morriss:
Who is Al.

[00:23:44] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:45] Anne Morriss:
Who wants to make a difference in this environment, has very little formal power, has very little informal power.

[00:23:51] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:23:51] Anne Morriss:
What does Al do to try to move the ball forward here? Because the odds are against them.

[00:23:59] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So here, here's what I would say. when was the last time you went to this teacher for advice? That's what I would love for you to be doing because then you're showing that sharing of advice is super helpful.

When we think of anyone who is less experienced in an organization that the most experienced people love to be around, like, what did they bring? And they bring a fresh amount of energy, deep respect for the people that come before them. And another thing we've talked about on this podcast, a lot of curiosity, no judgment.

[00:24:36] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, one, one of the places my head was going is, um, is just to ask: what do you have to learn from this particular Spanish teacher?

[00:24:45] Al:
So much. Honestly, I mean, I have learned a lot from them: how to structure your lesson plan, how to time out activities, how to organize desks to encourage different types of interaction and interplay with students and all of that stuff. They've been invaluable to me and my development as a, as a person and a, and a professional. Um, and I often do—

[00:25:11] Anne Morriss:
Let me just pause on that. Let me just pause on, on that. ‘Cause that's a really powerful statement. Do they know that you feel that way?

[00:25:17] Al:
I am profusely thanking them all of the time.

[00:25:22] Anne Morriss:
Great. Great.

[00:25:22] Al:
Um, because it really does save my butt every day.

[00:25:25] Anne Morriss:
Got it. I, I mean the tactical question that I think you're wrestling with is: in this system, how do you set yourself up as someone other people are willing to be guided by? Because then you can really have some influence in these school wide conversations on race. So, Frances, w-what would you suggest here?

[00:25:49] Frances Frei:
So, you want to show people that you have unique knowledge to share that will make their lives easier.

[00:25:53] Anne Morriss:
Yes.

[00:25:54] Frances Frei:
So, I can imagine, for instance, as a young person, that you are much closer to the experience the students are having than some of the more senior teachers are.

[00:26:02] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hmm.

[00:26:02] Frances Frei:
And so, just offering tidbits of, "Oh, you know, they're on TikTok, and here's a trend that I know is going viral on TikTok right now. And here's a quick exercise that I did with the students using that trend that got them excited and engaged.” You know, something like that. And the idea is that you want other teachers to start seeing you as someone that they can come to for advice.

[00:26:23] Anne Morriss:
Yes.

[00:26:24] Frances Frei:
That’s when you can influence them.

[00:26:26] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, what's, what's your reaction to that, Al?

[00:26:28] Al:
Yeah, I think that's, um, that's very astute, so totally agree.

[00:26:34] Frances Frei:
Great.

[00:26:35] Anne Morriss:
Um. So I'm curious about if we think about the demographic profile of the 25 percent. Are there faculty in the 75 percent who are on board, they’re leaning in to this adventure, this change adventure, and maybe because of their tenure, because of their formal power, who may be a credible guide to some of the skeptics? And so that's my question is do you, do you look out into the system and see bright lights and can you do something to make those lights brighter?

[00:27:14] Al:
It's a really good way of thinking about it. Um, I think that part of my struggle with coming up with an example of a bright light like that is that I feel that we are often pretty siloed into our classrooms because we're working all day. And so, the bright light is blocked by the classroom walls. Our doors are closed, and we can't see into each other's classrooms from where we're at.

So, I'm sure that there are, and I think that I catch glimpses of them when they share in all staff meetings and we're discussing this stuff. Um, but connecting with them and finding opportunities to amplify that light is maybe where I need to look next.

[00:27:59] Anne Morriss:
That's where I get excited. and also realistic about the role that you're playing in this system. Can you play the catalytic role of breaking down some of those silos? And it can start small. Maybe it's a, you know, let's just, after school we're gonna go have drinks. You know, you, you find three or four people and you go have drinks about the conversation of, okay, what can we do to help bring our colleagues along on this? Because we see the upside. We see the kids who are getting stuck, who could be unleashed in a world where those biases and barriers are removed. And so, what's working in your classroom? Okay, what's working for you? What's working for you? How can we bring more people into this conversation about what's working? What's your reaction to that?

[00:28:50] Al:
I love that. I mean, it works doubly for me in that, um, I'm trying to build community at the school. And... I'm looking for people to connect with. And, you know, after a long day of teaching, you're, you're exhausted, and you want to commiserate and discuss what you've experienced throughout the day.

And so just to have that outlet for me is, is essential, but also would provide the platform for us to discuss the more difficult and long term goals.
[00:29:22] Frances Frei:
And, and what Anne is inviting you to do is to take a leadership position in purposely building community. So, it’s easiest to build community around a challenge and a problem.

[00:29:35] Anne Morriss:
Al, what are you thinking?

[00:29:37] Al:
It's surprising how frequently community is at the root of these things. That being able to connect with colleagues, not just about the issue at hand, but in general, really forms the foundation of our ability to tackle larger issues. Without connections, we’re alone.

[00:29:58] Frances Frei:
Sampling on best practices is a beautiful way to bring a community together. Sampling on what we did wrong is a, just a more challenging way to bring a community together. And I bet you have some best practices. And once you get the best practices internally, then you can look externally. But what have we heard are the best practices outside of our, of our district?

[00:30:21] Anne Morriss:
And, and the question we ask is what's also the best version of Al who's going to show up in this workplace. And I suspect that Al, community builder—

[00:30:31] Frances Frei:
Oh, yeah.

[00:30:31] Anne Morriss:
—is also going to be a role that, w-where you can excel in a way that Al the critic is just, um, is going to be a more difficult path.

[00:30:39] Al:
I have a feeling you're right, and community building is definitely something that I excel at, so I'm looking forward to that part of the challenge.

[00:30:49] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:30:49] Al:
And I'm glad that there is something that I can feel confident about in terms of—

[00:30:55] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:30:55] Al:
—concrete steps to take in the coming school year that will build the foundation to tackle the, the larger stuff down the line.

[00:31:03] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I love that sequence. Let's build the muscle of connection and, and relying on each other to go do this thing that is difficult under normal circumstances and oh, by the way, wrestle with our identities, and the pluralism in classroom in 2023 is total varsity.

So let’s, let's build that muscle before we get all the way to the mountaintop here so that by the time we do get there, we're going to actually be really skilled and effective in both our own individual performance, but also relying on each other when inevitably that performance stumbles. Um, you feel like a different person at the end of this conversation and that's s-super fun and gratifying for us.

[00:31:49] Al:
I feel like, you know, I was looking at this as initially I was coming into the conversation with this question of how can I create the change?

And Now that we've talked about it. I feel a little bit less, like, pressure to be the, the change maker and more motivation—

[00:32:14] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:32:15] Al:
—to be part of the change that's already happening, probably, and that I can plug in better, um, and so I feel more licensed, I feel more capable, I feel more motivated.

[00:32:30] Frances Frei:
Yippee!

[00:32:32] Anne Morriss:
Uh, and what I love, Al, is that the, the counterintuitive part of this is you're going to be a much more effective change maker—

[00:32:39] Frances Frei:
Much more.

[00:32:40] Anne Morriss:
In, with this posture, than where, than where we started this conversation.

[00:32:44] Al:
Thank you so much.

[00:32:45] Frances Frei:
Oh, it’s such a pleasure, Al, such a pleasure.

[00:32:47] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, absolutely.

[BREAK][00:33:04] Anne Morriss:
Okay. So Frances, if I'm not a middle school teacher in Massachusetts being asked to use the word white supremacy in the classroom, what can I take away from this conversation?

[00:33:16] Frances Frei:
You know, whenever, any, anytime, anyone is struggling, what Ryan Buell has taught us is that we get to narrow down the set of causes. It's, “I don't have the capability to do it”, “I have the capability, but I don't have the motivation”, “I have the capability and the motivation, but I don't have the permission or the license to do it”. And if you replay the conversation, we were searching, searching, searching, and then when we got on, oh, it's a motivation problem, we really got to narrow in. So, and for motivation, a really nice solution is community. A really nice solution is, um, let's learn optimistically from our colleagues that are getting this right. And for you to really address my motivation, it can't be, “Here's the extra burden I want you to take.”

[00:34:08] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:34:08] Frances Frei:
It has to be net, net, this is going to be, we're going to be better off as a result of doing it.

[00:34:15] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And Frances, if it's not motivation, if it's the other two, what can I do?

[00:34:19] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So if I don't have, if, if I'm struggling because I don't have the capability to do it—

[00:34:25] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:34:25] Frances Frei:
The two main choices you have is to invest in me, to upskill me, or redesign the job so that my capabilities match it. What we find most often when there's a capability problem is that people have designed jobs for employees they wish they had, but not employees they actually have. So I wouldn't hesitate to go look at redesign the job.

[00:34:49] Anne Morriss:
Narrower scope, fewer job responsibilities, uh, and—

[00:34:52] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Things that play to your strengths, and then I'm going to do the collection of playing to your strengths, but it's almost always narrower way of doing it or another classic way of thinking about it is I have front office tasks and back office tasks. If one person can't do both, I'll get a person who does the front office and only ask them to do front office and I'll get a person who does back office and only ask them to do back office.

[00:35:13] Anne Morriss:
Okay. So in this situation, Francis. Uh, there was license because there's this school-wide mandate to—

[00:35:19] Frances Frei:
Oh my god, broad license.

[00:35:21] Anne Morriss:
—go have this difficult conversation in the classroom. Um, but what happens if there's not license?

[00:35:27] Frances Frei:
Yeah. So to affect my license, my boss has to, has to take their power and turn around and use it to empower.

[00:35:36] Anne Morriss:
Great. Um, if I want more license in a system, is, is our advice to go talk to your boss?

[00:35:43] Frances Frei:
Yeah. I think the, the advice is to talk to the boss—

[00:35:46] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:35:47] Frances Frei:
—about, uh, I want to do this, but I have fear of making a mistake.

[00:35:50] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:35:51] Frances Frei:
And the simplest way, if you're the person who wants your team to take more agency, it's to make sure that you're asking them to, um, to do this so that we can all learn from them. Not to do this so we can celebrate your perfection.

[00:36:05] Anne Morriss:
Beautiful framing. Thanks for listening, everyone. We want to hear from you too. If you want to figure out a workplace problem together, send us a message. Email us at fixable@ted.com or call us at 234-FIXABLE. That’s 234-349-2253. Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

[00:36:40] Frances Frei: 

And me, Frances Frei.

[00:36:42] Anne Morriss: 

Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard.

[00:36:59] Frances Frei:

If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.

[00:37:05] Anne Morriss: 

And one more thing. If you can, please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

[00:37:12] Frances Frei:

And it totally helps the search algorithm.