Carl - “How do I embrace friction in my company?” (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, I know you just learned something that you're eager to share. Do you wanna kick us off here?

[00:00:07] Frances Frei:
Absolutely. This is a fun fact, courtesy of the awesome Emily Oster.

[00:00:12] Anne Morriss:
Very awesome.

[00:00:14] Frances Frei:
The very awesome, who was an economics professor at Brown. And something that she wrote about recently, um, was the benefit and small downsides of napping. So I am a professional napper. I mean, I think—

[00:00:30] Anne Morriss:
Did she consult you on the research?

[00:00:33] Frances Frei:
But I really do think, would, would you, am I saying that too strongly?

[00:00:35] Anne Morriss:
You are. You are world, I've never seen someone, uh, as effectively nap as you.

[00:00:40] Frances Frei:
Yes. I'm a connoisseur of napping. And so learned two things. One is that it cognitively helps. And people talk about, oh, the 15-minute nap. Professional nappers don't nap for 15 minutes. That's just nonsense. I mean, I nap. Get in my pajamas, the whole thing. But, um, and longer naps are not worse than shorter naps. I always had a little bit of shame. Nope. So cognitively you're better off when you nap. Small downside, you'll earn less money.

But if you're in a position to make the trade-off between, like, cognitive strength and lower earnings, pro-napping. And really, I should say, potentially lowering earnings because you're not guaranteed to make less if you nap. It's just, really, it's a vague promise. You lose working hours, but you gain productivity. So, you know, that's my fun fact for today. A Fixable fun fact.

[00:01:35] Anne Morriss:
It's hard to imagine that's causal. But then when you really think about the tactics.

[00:01:38] Frances Frei:
Oh, it’s totally causal.

[00:01:39] Anne Morriss:
In the middle of the day of your most productive hours, you are not with us.

[00:01:43] Frances Frei:
I'm napping in the middle of every day, in the middle of every day.

[00:01:54] Anne Morriss:
I'm Anne Morris. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:01:56] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei. I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School.

[00:02:00] Anne Morriss:
And this is our show Fixable, from the TED Audio Collective. On Fixable, we believe that meaningful change happens quickly, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just one good conversation away.

[00:02:14] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today?

[00:02:16] Anne Morriss:
Frances, today we have Carl, which is not his real name by the way. But Carl is on the leadership team of a green energy company in Europe. He's leading product development and management, which for those of you who don't work in tech, is basically like being the captain of a ship within a larger fleet.

And this is a very mission-critical ship. You're responsible for setting the course of a project and getting everyone from point A to point B. Carl has a really interesting problem for us today, so let's hear directly from him.

[00:02:49] Carl:
In our company, we have grown a lot in the last couple of years, and we need highly skilled people, and we want to create a very inclusive and welcoming culture of autonomy.

And, um, we have struggled with a few people who are highly skilled and unfortunately not appreciating the culture we're building. And, uh, what I would like to do is give a few examples, and I would love to see if we can work on how I, or we as an organization can better confront these friction points.

[00:03:23] Anne Morriss:
Frances, what, uh, what's your initial reaction? What are you gonna be looking for in this conversation?

[00:03:28] Frances Frei:
Oh, I'm, I'm looking for the commonality that everyone has in organizations, which is, what do you do when really awesome people don't fit? And I hate the word fit, and I believe we're gonna come to understand why we hate the word fit in this conversation.

[00:03:45] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, I mean it's, it's such a loaded and misapplied concept, this idea of cultural fit. But it's a jumping-off point for a lot of tension in organizations, and the question often is “Who needs to evolve?” Is it, is it the employee that needs to get closer to existing norms, or do we really need to shape those norms to accommodate new ways of thinking and being that are gonna really be helpful to the future of the organization?

[00:04:13] Frances Frei:
I’m really looking forward to this.

[00:04:14] Anne Morriss:
Let’s do it.

[00:04:18] Anne Morriss:
Carl, we're so grateful that you're willing to do this with us.

[00:04:22] Frances Frei:
It’s just terrific.

[00:04:23] Carl:
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

[00:04:24] Anne Morriss:
Well, let's start with, um, tell us about the work you do.

[00:04:27] Carl:
Yeah, well, so I've been, uh, in the IT, tech, technology space for the last 20 years, mostly in big IT and software projects. And in the last, uh three, four years, I’ve been working with a startup here where I live. And, uh, um, yeah, this has been an exciting ride. Started in a fairly small organization with around 50 people and we're now, have now grown to around 400.

[00:04:57] Anne Morriss:
Wow. So 5-0 to 400.

[00:04:59] Carl:
Yes.

[00:04:59] Anne Morriss:
Since you've been there?

[00:05:00] Carl:
Exactly.

[00:05:01] Frances Frei:
That’s, that’s awesome.

[00:05:02] Anne Morriss:
That’s a really exciting stage of growth. Um, what is it that you love about the work that you do?

[00:05:08] Carl:
Well, um, on the one hand, we are a rather small organization, but we do get a lot done. You know, you don't need hundreds of people to achieve something. Sometimes a couple of dozen are even a better choice.

[00:05:22] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. So take us to the point of, you know, picking up the proverbial phone and, and giving us a call.

[00:05:28] Carl:
Absolutely.

[00:05:28] Anne Morriss:
What, um, what are you concerned about?

[00:05:33] Carl:
Yes, in my current organization, but also now in, in previous roles, I've, I've observed the general pattern here in, in, in fast-growing teams, you try to hire people who, who add to your culture, who are appreciative of your culture, and sometimes you hire for skills because you need this particular domain knowledge, industry experience. And, at least to me more than once, it has happened that we end up with a person who really knows the thing. They're great, and they struggle with the team culture, with the way we do things, the way we want to do things, the way we strive to be. They don't strive to be that way. And so there's friction, a lot of friction.

For example, we are using a lot of Slack, uh, and we have Slack bots that, um, if you say, “He/she”, the Slack bot will say, “Hey, do you want to use the term they, it's more gender neutral,” or if you say, “Hi guys,” the Slack bot will say, “Hey, there are different words you could use, for example, people, folks, and so on.” So it's this kind of working on our language to be inclusive.

[00:06:48] Anne Morriss:
So in those two examples, are there high performers who are resisting having their language corrected by the chatbot?

[00:06:57] Carl:
Exactly. So, you know, it starts with, starts with real discussion saying, “I've been saying ‘hi guys’ for the last 40 years, why should I change? This is totally normal,” and, and then you know, over time it goes down to just sad emojis on these Slack bot responses or, or angry emojis even so, or shrugs, you know, it, it… Clearly there is, uh, discontent, right?

[00:07:27] Anne Morriss:
So not taking the values-driven culture, uh, seriously.

[00:07:33] Carl:
Yes.

[00:07:33] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And I guess what I'm, what I'm pushing on is, um, trying to get a sense for the stakes of the friction, ‘cause I imagine it has gone beyond, uh, annoyance around the chatbot.

[00:07:46] Carl:
Yes. So these conversations have, have been had, but I think the frustration has gone high on, on, on both sides of the conflict. I think we are at a point where we are not talking about this so much, which is also not a good sign. You know, silence is not a good health indicator.

[00:08:07] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. I was gonna ask, how, generally, has the organization dealt with conflict in the past?

[00:08:13] Carl:
On a scale of 0 to 10 on how good we deal with conflict, I'd say we are somewhere on a 3 or 4. Uh, we're trying a lot, but still we, we are not very good in really dealing with conflict.

[00:08:32] Anne Morriss:
I'm gonna guess that number might be closer to zero. Is that unfair?

[00:08:40] Carl:
Provocative.

[00:08:43] Anne Morriss:
Just to start the conversation.

[00:08:45] Frances Frei:
Now I get to summarize.

[00:08:47] Anne Morriss:
I want you to summarize.

[00:08:48] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Good. And I’m super optimistic, Carl, I'll just, I'll start there. Very optimistic. So I find this to be really common, particularly in 2023. Like it's, this is a very, very common situation, which is people come together in a multicultural environment, and a good set of people are embracing the multiculturalism, but some people really feel like their culture is superior to multiculture. Like, “My culture has worked, so why do I want to dilute it to multicultural?” And you can tell us if we got it right, but I find this happening a great deal. And it doesn't have to be international. I mean the, you can be multicultural in, in many ways.

The reason that it's problematic is because if this was a low performer, I don't think this would be a conversation. But this is a person that's not only performing high, but has unique skills. And as a startup, we need unique skills, we need specialty skills. So what do we do when we have someone that's giving us that, that form of uniqueness but is really at odds with our multicultural inclusive way?

[00:10:07] Anne Morriss:
And I'm gonna author, uh, an alternative viewpoint, Carl—

[00:10:12] Frances Frei:
And then you get to adjudicate.

[00:10:13] Anne Morriss:
And then you get to, ‘cause I'm having an unexpected reaction to this conversation. I have to say, I expected to experience a relatively simple storyline of a toxic high performer and a young organization trying to figure out: is the trade-off worth it? Storyline A. The storyline B that I'm wondering about is maybe the reverse of what you articulated, which is this beautiful startup with a beautiful set of values that made sense for the small number of people that started it, but in order for this beautiful flower to grow up into a big, strong tree—I am butchering the natural word.
[00:10:59] Frances Frei:
So the flower to a tree, it's okay. Go, go, go.

[00:11:01] Anne Morriss:
In order for this beautiful seedling to grow up into a big, strong tree, it might actually need to deal with conflict in a more direct way. So tell us—

[00:11:15] Frances Frei:
Your reactions of this.

[00:11:17] Anne Morriss:
Tell us your reaction to hearing us now.

[00:11:19] Carl:
Yeah, so, um, I liked Frances’s metaphor of this, “my culture over multiculture”. I think that is, and we are a very diverse bunch of people. ‘Cause we grew so quickly, so we have people from 30 different nationalities and so on. So, so it resonated. But then at the same time, what Anne said, um, you know, with 400 people, you're not, you're not 50 or even 15 anymore. Right?

And, uh, we see this everywhere. Everything is getting more professional, how hiring practices, accounting, the way we deal with outages, the way we deal with, with errors, anything, right? Planning gets better. Uh, financial forecasts get better, you know, so everything gets better. Um, and the culture is maybe not evolving at that pace.

[00:12:16] Frances Frei:
So it's a tie. It's really from the, but from my, I have a scorecard.

[00:12:19] Anne Morriss:
Constantly keeping score. So Carl, um, if you think about the kind of the problem statement here, do you think the problem is that these outsiders need to adapt more gracefully to the existing culture?

[00:12:34] Carl:
No, no. I, I really, you know, I'm not, I'm, I'm not a big fan of this culture fit. I deliberately try to use culture add, right, or evolve. Both of us will have to learn, and what comes out will be something new. It will not be red or blue; it’ll be purple. But how, what's the process? How do we get there? What do we, how do we do this? How do we mix these colors? Right?

[00:13:04] Frances Frei:
Yeah, so here's, here is where my mind goes. Um, if I think about culture, and I totally agree with you on culture fit, um, that it's hard to, um, look for it, and it gets too homogeneous and it's just kind of ucky. Um, but Anne and I have, we've gone into a lot of burning buildings in fixing things. We have noticed that there are always a few sources of toxicity that, um, every organization we've gone with, the organization has separated from a few people.

Now, what's surprising is how few people. So we've gone into an organization with 13,000 employees and needed to separate from 20, and this was an organization that was on fire. So I would say that I'm not expecting a lot of separation, but there is a reset that needs to occur, and it's what you were just alluding to, and this is anytime our culture expands, we need to do exactly what you said, which is not have one culture engulf another, but to reset with our new group of people.

And the format we use for that is a format where, let's say you had a small sample of people. Each person in the group would say, “Here's what I need to be wildly successful.” And you'd have everybody say it. So for example, if this were me, what I need to be wildly successful, um, is breaks between meetings where I can turn off the lights and make it really silent. I'm an introvert. I refuel alone and in dark places, and if you don't give me that, I will not be wildly successful. I'll be okay, but I won't be wildly successful, so there's no judgment associated with what I need.

But if I don't tell you that, the chance of you, like, not setting me up for success is high. So the first thing is, what are all of the, “this is what I need to be wildly successful” from everyone? Now you might be able to predict what people who are like you will say, but you probably can't at all predict what people who are unlike you will say, and giving everyone a chance to hear what everybody else says can be wildly helpful.

[00:15:26] Anne Morriss:
Carl, what's your reaction to that?

[00:15:29] Carl:
Uh, yeah, this, I mean, this sounds very, very powerful. Asking you this question. This sounds, sounds great to me.

[00:15:39] Anne Morriss:
I love it. The fact that I get stuck on in this story right now is, um, this example of, “Can you stop using the word guys to describe the whole company that has a beautiful rainbow of genders?”

It's a very simple ask. And you're speaking to a very intelligent audience. You have hired this human because he, I assume it’s he in the story, is bringing, you know, some expertise that he's developed probably over decades.

[00:16:09] Carl:
Absolutely.

[00:16:10] Anne Morriss:
His 40 years of, of using “guys” without that being a problem. So if he's not changing his behavior, which is very easy to do, all you're asking him to do is to stop using this phrase. I, I think there is a need, exactly, to your point, Frances, that he has to be successful that is not being met. And right now, in this culture of conflict aversion, there is no forum for this person to come and talk about what he needs in order to thrive and contribute because the signals he keeps getting is that his needs are secondary to the needs of the people around him.

So counterintuitively, it's an inclusion story of “How do you bring people like the human who doesn't want the chatbot correcting his fucking language, right, into the storyline?” Because he's gonna be a really important part of the company's future. Yes, there are the extreme cases that need to be separated—

[00:17:16] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:17:16] Anne Morriss:
—because their behavior is so toxic, the harm is too high.

[00:17:19] Frances Frei:
Yep.

[00:17:19] Anne Morriss:
But it doesn't sound like that's the world we're living in and these are unspoken tensions and frictions, and because of this culture that has been built, there's no oxygen for people to come and have a dialogue around it.

[00:17:32] Carl:
Absolutely. I think, yeah, this is, uh, you opening my eyes during this conversation. I, I really appreciate this.

[00:17:41] Anne Morriss:
So, not to force you into my version of the story, Frances, but if that's the case, what does Carl do?

[00:17:47] Frances Frei:
And I think it is starting with the magic dust question, like, of just what do you need? And you probably wanna come up with Carl, what do you need? ‘Caus you might wanna have a, like I gave you an illustrative example for me, and that example is one to get you to know me, but two, to let you know that anything you say is fine. Anything you say is fine. So that's where my head goes to.

[00:18:11] Anne Morriss:
Yep.

[00:18:12] Carl:
Yeah. I, I, I, I really see how we can take, how we can make this actionable by, you know, uh, we have this group that is dealing with our culture, culture circle, if you will, and one of us, or a person we know trust, is being trusted by this other, other person can approach them and say, “Hey, what do you need? Where's our org model currently failing you? Um, where is it blocking you from being successful the way you, you and your team want to get work done?”
Right? And so I think we were, to be honest, quite arrogant and, and maybe presumptuous and, you know, we built an organization model and say, “Everybody needs to… This is how we work. Everyone needs to comply.” So this is, you know, very, very, very inspiring thoughts.

[00:19:04] Anne Morriss:
I'm excited that there's already a mechanism that exists in the organization to talk about culture.

[00:19:08] Carl:
Yes.

[00:19:09] Anne Morriss:
And, um, the thing I might add to your action plan is to consider how to bring this conversation around conflict and conflict aversion to that team and partner with them and think about where the organization is today, where it wants to go, and where the role conflict may play. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump ahead and give you my own theory of the case.

For what it's worth, I think all of your hopes and dreams as an organization are on the other side of learning how to surface and manage conflict productively. I suspect that these, these so-called perpetrators at the beginning of our conversation are not the only ones who have internalized that conflict is a bad thing in this peace-loving community. And so, you know, I'm not gonna rock the boat if I disagree with how something's being done or if I have an idea that someone else might like. That is a huge cost.

If you move, you gave yourself a three on conflict management. I'm gonna downgrade you to a 1/2 if I may, Carl. If you get to even a five or dare we dream a six or seven, you will have transformed this organization and you will be on a path to crushing it that you can't even imagine right now.

[00:20:41] Carl:
Yeah. I agree. I, I totally see your point. Yeah. Um, it's tough to get, uh, downgraded here, but, uh, yes. Uh, you, you're, you're right.

[00:20:49] Frances Frei:
Listen, I, I live with her, Carl, and you know, you just don't take it personally. Just take it as a desire to be better tomorrow than you are today.

[00:20:57] Carl:
Absolutely.

[00:20:58] Frances Frei:
Here’s the thing that gets me really excited. No new people, no new technology, and you can add zeros to the performance. That is super rare. So yeah, it's gonna be hard, but the hard part is it's gonna be uncomfortable to start, which is where you're gonna come in to sort of take the first steps. But no new people, no new technology, and add zeros. That’s freaking amazing.

[00:21:24] Anne Morriss:
Carl, tell us how you're feeling. Did we achieve our objective for this conversation?

[00:21:29] Carl:
Absolutely. I would've hoped for one or two kind of actionable pieces of advice, and I definitely got that out. You know, this, uh, question of “What do you need to be vitally successful?” I'll, I'll take this to our culture group and um, we'll ask this question and end, be in a state of mind where we are able to listen to the answer. Right.

[00:21:49] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:21:51] Anne Morriss:
I, I love it. All right. Great to meet you.
[00:21:53] Carl:
Thank you very much.

[00:22:16] Anne Morriss:
All right, Frances, what, um, what surprised you about that conversation? Thoughts?

[00:22:22] Frances Frei:
Well, its, what, what surprises me about every conversation, the presenting problem is often different than the real problem. And, and that's true, not just here, but we find that when we go into organizations as well. So what surprised me is that that conversation ended up being about the conflict aversion when I was pretty sure it was gonna be about how to manage a toxic employee.

[00:22:45] Anne Morriss:
Yes. I, I, I was just thinking, uh, as, as we look back on our work, that this scourge of conflict aversion, in most cases cannot be underestimated.

[00:22:57] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:22:57] Anne Morriss:
You know, we've seen people in the finance space be so conflict averse that they just let their colleagues buy companies that they don't agree with. You know? Like this literally is everywhere.

[00:23:09] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah. You know, we find that people that participate in team sports are good at conflict and people that don't participate in team sports are not, and so we have to teach the team-based way of competition and that competition, um, is gonna make us better.

So one short way that we've done this is we bring in a simulation into the organizations. It's called the Everest Simulation, and it's a team-based simulation because team-based is way to do it. It's a competition, and the team that navigates it the best will get to the top of Mount Everest, and you have to get rescued off the mountain if you did not handle the conflict well.

And just that exercise, which is like, it's a 90-minute exercise and then a 90-minute debrief of the exercise, just radically changes the organization's approach towards conflict, and that in the presence of conflict, we're all bringing all of our good stuff, putting it on the table, and working with it.

[00:24:10] Anne Morriss:
So I love this simulation and I love this, I love the sports analogy.

[00:24:14] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:24:14] Anne Morriss:
I almost want Carl, I almost want 'em to start—

[00:24:16] Frances Frei:
Like a, like a team, like intermural sports and keep score, have a leaderboard.

[00:24:22] Anne Morriss:
An intermural sport. Keep score. Have winners and losers. Give out prizes.

[00:24:26] Frances Frei:
Yes. Yes. Competition is great. Um, but so I, I've met a CEO who will only hire people who are the youngest and people who played team sports, and they are wildly successful as an organization. They're, it's an advertising organization. They outperform everyone else, and that is the entirety of their secret sauce.

[00:24:50] Anne Morriss:
What's, uh, what's your birth order, Frances Frei?

[00:24:53] Frances Frei:
I’m number six of six. What's your birth order, Anne Morriss?

[00:24:56] Anne Morriss:
I’m number four of four.

[00:24:59] Frances Frei:
Did you play team sports?

[00:25:00] Anne Morriss:
I did.

[00:25:01] Frances Frei:
As did I.

[00:25:01] Anne Morriss:
I did, yeah.

[00:25:02] Frances Frei:
That's the entire hiring model because of the sport of conflict and that competition makes you better. You're much better if you play against people and keep score than if you never keep score.

[00:25:17] Anne Morriss:
Exactly. Conflict doesn't have to be a bad thing. It, it helps you grow.

Thank you so much for listening. We wanna hear from you too. If you have a problem that we might be able to help you solve, give us a call at 234-fixable. That's 234-349-2253, or email us fixable@ted.com.

[00:25:52] Frances Frei:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Frances Frei.

[00:25:57] Anne Morriss:
And me, Anne Morriss. This episode was produced by Isabel Carter. Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Jimmy Gutierrez, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, BanBan Cheng, and Roxanne Hai Lash. Jake Gorski is our mix engineer.

[00:26:18] Frances Frei:
We'll be bringing you new episodes of Fixable every week, so please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Also, please leave us a review.

[00:26:28] Anne Morriss:
Particularly if you like the show.

[00:26:29] Frances Frei:
See you soon.