The power of neurodivergence in the workplace (w/ Master Fixer Ludmila Praslova) - Part 2

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

Anne Morriss: Hello everyone. Welcome back to our Master Fixer two-parter. I'm Ann Morris. And I'm Frances Frei. We have a caller on the line with a very important issue close to our hearts. We didn't think we had all the information to solve it by ourselves, so we called in Ludmila Praslova, a Master Fixer on neurodiversity.

We had a great conversation with Led Miller last week. We recommend everyone listens to that episode first if you haven't done so. And today we're bringing our caller, Hugo, into the mix. We've got a full house, everybody.

Hugo (Caller): I. Hi, Anna Frances. Um, so recently I discovered that I'm on the autism spectrum after 51 years on this planet.

And, um, this unlocked quite some interesting insights. And, uh, at the moment I'm, I'm looking for a new job and besides looking for the type of job and the type of environment, I'm also considering when to disclose this to. Employers and colleagues. So I'm exploring this, this topic at the moment and, uh, really welcome your input as well.

Frances Frei: What is your reaction? My love? I'm really appreciative that what a diagnosis does is it, it lets you realize that you're not alone. You're not the only one. That there is, like your patterns are typical and going, coming from a place where you thought you were very untypical. So I have been recently getting in touch with my own diagnosis on this beautiful superpower of neurodiversity.

And I'm not always keen to want to talk about it, and that's like desire to talk about it and then should I, like, do I need to talk about it? So I, I'm really glad we're gonna have this conversation because I honestly don't know what the answers are, but I'm pretty optimistic that with the four of us together, we can figure it out.

Anne Morriss: Yeah, for sure. I, it comes with vocabulary, it comes with a set of patterns. In, in this framing, even using the word diagnosis comes with a certain set of assumptions and implications, and I am eager for lam's guidance. Both as an expert in this space and also someone bringing her own personal experience to this as we tried to navigate this work.

'cause none of these things fit. You know, the word di in my experience, the word diagnosis doesn't fit perfectly. The framework of illness doesn't fit perfectly. The the React, typical, atypical doesn't fit perfectly, doesn't perfectly. And so we have to use these imperfect words and tools to find our way.

And, um, I don't know where we're gonna land to be honest,

Frances Frei: but I, I know it's fixable and that we're gonna get a lot further together.

Anne Morriss: Hugo, welcome to Fixable. We're so happy to have you with us today.

Hugo (Caller): Hello. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Anne Morriss: You, you may be aware of Lu Miller's work. She has thought deeply on the questions you asked. She was diagnosed, uh, on the autism spectrum as an adult. Frances to my left is wrestling with the likelihood that she is also probably on the autism spectrum.

And so you are a very loving company right now.

Hugo (Caller): Very nice.

Anne Morriss: In your voicemail, which was from a few months ago, you said you had just received your autism diagnosis. So first of all, yeah. Congratulations, we've, that can be a very empowering step feature, not a book. Absolutely. You said you were looking for guidance, incorporating this new insight into your work life and in particular, wondering

If, when, how to disclose your diagnosis to your new employer. At that point you were looking for a new job. How's the job search going? Are there any new plot points in your life that we should know before we dive in?

Hugo (Caller): Well, the job search is difficult because I, well, I, I hope it's, it's mostly the market and, and not just me.

It's not as easy as my, when I got my last job nine years ago, um, then I could choose from three offers, and now it's, it's just a, it's a bit of a grind and I'm trying a lot of different things, but I don't think that the job search itself is in any way. different or, or hampered by this diagnosis. It'll be the thing that comes afterwards.

And maybe I will exclude some jobs from the search because I don't think the environment might be beneficial. But um, other than that, yeah, that's the situation. Plot twist. I also was diagnosed with a DD. That adds another dimension. That's, that's also cool to know.

Anne Morriss: So, Hugo, let me ask, what was it like to receive both of these diagnoses?

Hugo (Caller): Well, the first one was a, a big relief because I, I. I have always, as far as I can remember, been interested in figuring out how, how everything works in including myself. And there were certain parts of that that I couldn't really definitively figure out. And I've looked. For explanations in areas like that's just my character or it's my culture, or I don't speak the language as fluently as others.

That's in German, not in English, or some cultural, yeah, cultural differences. I. But now this is a much more fitting explanation for certain things. For me, it's really great because I love to understand everything and this is just part of the understanding.

Anne Morriss: Beautiful. Ludmila, can you speak to how frequently these kinds of diagnoses coexist?

Ludmila Praslova: More and more people are getting diagnosed with both. It used to be that you actually couldn't be, that you could only have one or the other, but now those clinical rules have changed and people are increasingly finding that the overlap is. Could be up to 40 or even 50% in some cases. Wow. So there is pretty significant overlap, which is a, a major change because several years ago, uh, people believe that autism and A DHD could not coexist in the same person.

And there are many people know who. Do identifies both, and it explains more than, uh, just one diagnosis because it can also explain sometimes why your autism diagnosis took so long because some of your A DHD traits were, uh, presenting kind of a different picture and, uh, the clinical science just wasn't keeping up with, uh, the really multifaceted.

Reality of our brains and our lives.

Anne Morriss: Hugo, what's your reaction to that?

Hugo (Caller): Yeah, I'm at the beginning of discovering how, what the interaction between that is and also maybe what, what kind of remedies are. Because with a DD, you can, I think, uh, get some, uh, medicine sometimes. Um. It'll be interesting for my understanding because then I can, if I can try it out and then basically experience what it feels like to not be so distracted, then then I have a reference point.

Anne Morriss: Another reference point. So, beautiful. Maybe just to kick us off, what are your biggest questions coming into this conversation?

Hugo (Caller): Well, the initial one was now that I, I notice how should I communicated and if, when and, and how My. Setting, and maybe that's also because of the autism, is that I am, I'm very honest and I, I share a lot and I can tend to overshare and now I know where that's coming from because for me, it's super easy to share personal things.

It, it doesn't feel like I'm like taking a risk with that. So that, that's the basic. Sort of attitude, but I know that I have to be a little bit careful. And that's the thing that I now need to figure out. Like how do I approach this? And I've done some experiments with in my circle of friends and family and, and people I know.

I've already gotten a lot of very surprising, you know, the whole range of, uh, reactions from Oh, you couldn't possibly be, oh yeah, yeah, I knew this already and I thought you knew. And I'm like, why didn't you Or somebody who said, yeah, I thought so, but I, I didn't want to tell you because that's something you should figure out for yourself.

And I'm like, you know, I wish I knew. But yeah.

Anne Morriss: And just to ground us, what kind of work do you do?

Hugo (Caller): I started out in very technical as a programmer, but I always wanted to know more and be involved in the whole thing. And in the beginning that was, uh, user experience. And then I wanted to expand the scope, and now I'm a product manager or head of product, and that means everything.

That needs to be done to make the teams effective and successful to work on a product. Yeah.

Anne Morriss: And what have been some of your superpowers at work in your past roles?

Hugo (Caller): Yeah. I am very structured and I quickly set up structures in a new environment. I also. See systems as a whole and I can see the details at the same time, so I, I arrived to certain conclusions a lot quicker than some other people.

Also, funnily enough, in certain situations where not everything is intuitive to me, I do in groups, see where things are going. On a social level, if there's communication problems, I detect those and much quicker than other people sometimes, but helps if, if people accept that, I then actually raise my hand and say, Hey, look, this, this is my analysis of what's going on here.

But with a lot of egos, that's not always the case. So, yeah, sometimes I just have to be patient and let it play out. So those are some of the things that I've di identified so far. Yeah.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Beautiful. What are you most worried about, um, when it comes to disclosure?

Hugo (Caller): Well, if I come out and actually use the word autism or a DD, then.

I have a, a huge informational advantage because I already know what it is and, and I know what it is for me, but I cannot assume that the other person has, is at the same level, especially not how I as an individual, unique person with autism. Uh, so they start from scratch basically, and I, I have to then guide them in the process.

And this may be. It may be worse to do that with people who are in your life for a longer period of time and in the FU going into the future, but maybe not so much in in short term relationships. I think I can also just address a few characteristics sporadically like, look, I. I have, I tend to have a serious expression on my face, even though inside I'm smiling and this throws people off.

And there's other things like that.

Anne Morriss: What makes you want to share this part of your story with people?

Hugo (Caller): Um, well, it, it could be sharing the burden, , uh, because now I realize I've been walking around with a, a backpack. For my whole life with extra weights that I didn't know other people didn't have and now I know what those weights are and I, I basically pretend.

So I, I have ways to mask and to, to pretend like I'm a typical person. It's a little bit like running a program or script. But it doesn't give me the, the insights that the other people have. So I don't always detect when the script runs into a problem, or sometimes I detect it, but I cannot debug it. So to say I just in programmer speak, I, I cannot, uh, figure out how to fix it.

And in the past, even before I, uh, knew, uh, my diagnosis. Like I, I, I asked a boss of mine when we had a situation with a client who got really upset about something I suggested. I, I, I don't understand what happened here. And, and they escalated and they, and I, I was like, I proposed something. They didn't want it.

I tried to convince them a little bit, but then I was like, okay, then it's fine. But they were still upset and I was like, what's going on here? And yeah. So I asked him like the feedback, Hey, what. What did I say? And then he, he was like, oh, yeah, sometimes that happens. And so I did, it wasn't a conclusive answer.

Frances Frei: I, if I can just, Hugo, just say that it, I often feel like there are trip wires out there and I sometimes trip it. I don't have the peripheral vision to see it. And then it does take an interpreter to help understand, because even after I've done it, I see the collateral damage. I'm still not sure of the cause and effect.

And I feel like that's what you are, that's what you're describing.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah. And, and in the future, how do I make sure that some of that gets caught, so to say, and asking for feedback? And I, I'm always happy for feedback and I can take it very directly, more, much more than some neurotypical people. And like, I, I always see it as a positive so soon.

Anne Morriss: After the break, LADM will lend us some of her expertise to help hug go. And maybe some of you out there navigate this tricky conversation and maybe some of us in here.

Ludmilla, let's get you in here to the specific question of disclosure that Hugo has and then to some of the experiences he's describing at work. I imagine that you recognize these experiences in the research that you've done.

Ludmila Praslova: Absolutely. And many people feel like you treat the wire sometimes and something happens with relationships and you're not entirely sure what happens.

So it really sometimes would help if people understood how you communicate better. And maybe we're just aware of what it is, but I can also understand that. Sometimes people can either misuse this knowledge or don't believe and say, oh no, you don't look artistic to me, so I, I'm going to decide that you're not autistic.

So those are all situations that happened with many people, but it also seems like you've been. Successful before with just getting work and not necessarily needing, needing any accommodations for the actual tasks. So your only, or your major concern is the relational part of the work. Is that accurate to you?

Yeah, actually.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah. That's interesting accommodation. So, I, I thought about it, but I, I gravitated towards jobs where I. The environment was already accommodating. So my first job out of college was an IT up and coming IT consultancy company and we, I. In the methodology there, we had, like with every new team you joined, you'd have a norming session and you talk about like, how do we communicate with each other and how do we disturb each other and how do we make sure that we don't disturb each other?

Uh, for instance, a very typical thing was like if somebody is wearing headphones, don't disturb them. Send them an email or something like that. And I have been able to. Just not knowing that there were accommodations shaped my environment a little bit, and I am pretty direct, so I like, if I don't like the chair, then I make sure that I find another chair.

Or if something, if the light is bothering me, then I'm, I will fix it. , uh, much to, to surprise of some people. Sometimes I've gotten accommodations, but I've just made sure I've just done it myself, basically.

Ludmila Praslova: And I think many people do this. That's also why sometimes we don't discover our differences until later in life because we just figure out how to find the kind of work environment that works for our brains.

So that is actually huge. If someone can find a job that aligns with their strengths and find work environment. That already has a culture that's inclusive, even if they don't call it that, because they just think it is just a logical thing to do. Why would you distract people from what they're doing that is.

A tremendous step in what you want to do.

Anne Morriss: Hugo's pretty good at that. Let's say he's continues that track record and is in awesome new job. , you seem like you'd be an extraordinary colleague, but let's say he sourced the job and is wrestling with this question of disclosing this formal diagnosis. Are his concerns about the likelihood that people are gonna be able to consume this information with some kind of skill well placed?

Hugo, do you have a clarification there?

Hugo (Caller): The last role that I was in was problematic because we were in meetings the whole day. Brutal. It was very hard for me to stay focused on the meeting. So going forward, I try to manage that in some way and, and try to accommodate or, or not have so many meetings with.

So that. May inform my search a little bit, but, uh, we'll see. Yeah.

Ludmila Praslova: So yeah, that could be a problem.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. So if I'm tracking your distinction with Mila, that is actually a task related Yeah. Issue, not just a relational issue. Yeah,

Ludmila Praslova: exactly. So yes, if we're talking about the kinds of jobs where you might want to modify some of the tasks or have to explain that some of the tasks are.

Taxing. Then sometimes you might want to do an earlier disclosure, and there's just so many considerations because disclosure is not always taken well. Unfortunately, we do know, uh, that many people experience negative, uh, reaction and, uh, sometimes people are not hired or, you know, pushed out, and sometimes disclosure works wonderfully.

Anne Morriss: How could Hugo minimize the risks of disclosure going poorly?

Ludmila Praslova: Sometimes people just say, I'm only gonna disclose to one person. That's my manager. Especially that happens when people are disclosing for task related reasons. Let's say, I really can't have so many meetings and could you please help me manage the meeting load?

And people would disclose to just one person, their immediate supervisor. That can be fantastic If your supervisor is the right. Person. It can also go very wrong if your supervisor takes it as, oh, that's extra burden on me. And that can be a problem. So for those situations, I would actually suggest that minimizing the risk might involve talking to at least a couple of people or three people.

So let's say someone and HR or employer resource groups, so that more than one person knows and they could turn against you. But statistically, when people say, I'm going to help you. To manage your meeting's burden so that not everybody can just put things on your calendar without asking you, which happens a lot, and the person sticks to it fantastic, but sometimes they don't.

They change their mind, they leave, and then you're left with the new boss who doesn't want to hear any of that in that particular case. It might make sense to disclose to more than one person.

Frances Frei: I'm wondering about your reaction looking for a job, and one of the questions when people are like, do you have any questions for us?

And I've always known that's like a make or break moment. I've never known what the right questions are. I just know that there are some people who got the secret memo on what good questions are. I was skipped on that distribution list, but now one is occurring to me through this conversation, which is in this role, what's your estimate of the

Percentage of time that the work for this role is done in meetings versus out of meetings. Do you have an estimate? Is it 25 75, 50 50, 75, 25? What's your reaction to asking a question like that? I'm not disclosing, although if, but I'm actually getting to why I care and then you can do it discussable. And honestly, if it's 75, 25 in meetings, not a meetings, I don't want the role, but I'm, but I am.

I'm wondering what's your reaction to that kind of question?

Ludmila Praslova: I love it. I think it's a very good question. If you just say, just gimme approximately percentages of this and this, in that role, it sometimes they may not be able to estimate it accurately, but that's besides the point. Yeah, I think it's a very, it could be a very helpful question, just trying to understand what to expect.

Frances Frei: And Hugo, how about you? What's your reaction to a question like that?

Hugo (Caller): Yeah, I don't know because it. It also depends sometimes on the kind of meetings and how much control I have over the sort of the mechanics of the meeting.

Anne Morriss: Let me channel the audience, the, a neurotypical audience. Mm-hmm. For this conversation.

Yeah. Great. So I think the framing that's, that feels really powerful to me in hearing your story. Hugo is a framing around, here's what I know about myself. Couple decades into being in the workplace. Here's what I, here's the environment where I know I'm gonna do my best work. And when I get to do my best work, I can make extraordinary things happen.

Like I'm gonna ask a couple questions about how work happens here and how you expect me to do work. 'cause what I wanna layer, what I wanna layer in is the payoff. Of really partnering with me on deciding whether this is the right job for me, or deciding whether this is the right role for me. Our job crafting together, how we together can set me up for wild success.

And so what I would push you to do is just is in these moments, so you're in the. Interview moments, you're in that onboarding moment. You're in your meeting with colleagues is finding language to educate the people around you on what you know you need to be successful, but also what they get in return.

But because I want, I. I want you, Hugo, I want you Frances, to also be able to, to bring us along on the payoff here. Yeah. Which is so beautiful. If I already know you, I know what I get in return. But when I'm just meeting you for the first time, I don't know. And it's almost that operational transparency that is so powerful at the organizational level it or in the classroom it, I just wanna bring that into the one-on-one interpersonal level too.

Frances Frei: It's also a lovely way to talk about the superhuman outputs you get, which is an awkward conversation unaided, but this gives you, if under these circumstances, this is when I get to be superhuman. Yeah. Beautiful.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah, that's, that was another thing that I was noting, like, so I don't mind telling people what I'm good at and, and I, but I know that neurotypical people sometimes feel threatened if you are like, I'm good at this, so let me do this.

Or like, they, they're like, yep, they're, they feel somewhat somehow personally attacked or diminished or something like that. Whereas if I'm meeting somebody who says, yeah, look, I, I'm good at this. I'm like, okay, so you're good at that, that's fine, good for you.

Anne Morriss: My counsel would be to come up with a couple phrases and workshop them, test them with different audiences around you.

Here are three ways I might say this is, I'm really good at this, and in order for me to do that for you, here are some of the things. That I really need or I really respond well to.

Hugo (Caller): I have actually had some good experience with chatGPT and, and related ais because I, I can, it's a prompt. I'm an autistic person.

I want to communicate this to an, an or, or neurotypical person. I. What are some of the options and it's, it spits it out and it says, this is why you say this, and it's really cool.

Frances Frei: ChatGPT is using Ludmila’s book and it's telling you how to do it

Anne Morriss: What's your reaction to this part of the interview?

Ludmila Praslova: When you start having these kinds of conversations in the interview about your strength, about uh, what you can do, how to bring your best strength out? In the ideal situation, that really is the purpose of the interview. You are both evaluating each other.

I know sometimes job seekers are put in such a desperate position that we feel like we have to do anything to get a job, but if you have any ability to also shop and feel like you are learning about them, they're learning about you, is this relationship going to work? If we're both honest. Then having this kind of conversation is really fantastic, both for them and for you to find out if, um, this really is the best.

And, and I also always try to spend quite a bit of my life trying to figure out how to, not threaten people, but talk about the strength in a way that I don't get the bullying of high performance effect performance effect, because that happens, definitely does happen. So using superlatives like.

Superpowers that they can be super loaded. But just say, those are my strengths, and we all know that strengths are relative and this is how I do my best work. We can just have a very good conversation without really saying, I'm better than anyone, or I will beat anyone because then yes, some competitive streak might occur within people, but we can always talk about this is my strength and is just my strength relative to.

The other things that I can do, rather than I'm the best in the world, this is my relative strengths, this is what is the best of me or looks like, usually is, um, a conversation that is better received. And you can also see if that relationship building is going to work from there. Because if someone is threatened by you saying that, I'm good at this in an interview.

There's a pretty high likelihood this job is not going to go really well. So if you at all can have this sort of conversation is, might really inform even the further relational component with this organization and coworkers and managers. Yeah.

Anne Morriss: Beautiful. I know we don't have infinite amount of time, so Hugo, what other

Questions? Do you have that, that any of us can speak to?

Hugo (Caller): I don't have so many more questions. The a DD component is a, is a new one. I maybe a comment that is useful for the public at large, and especially the life coaches, among them, ,. I've had coaches in several parts of my life, and for me it was just to learn about myself and to get the outside perspective and things like that.

and none of them have ever considered the possibility that I might be, uh, autistic. Now. This time I decided, well, let's try a psychologist. They have different tools and you know, who knows? Maybe I learned something new. And yes, after three sessions she was like, Hey, have you ever considered or have you been diagnosed or have you heard about it?

And I was like, oh, that's very interesting. So yeah, that was a very lucky coincidence.

Frances Frei: And when Hugo says, read up, please read the Canary code. it. It's not only, it's the greatest source, but you do a wonderful job of pointing to other areas in the literature. So if you wanna know what your first stop in reading up, it's the Canary code.

And it was a gift from Ludmila to the rest of us.

Ludmila Praslova: Thank you. I appreciate you saying that.

Anne Morriss: Um, Hugo, were we able to be helpful to you in this conversation in thinking about your next steps in the job search?

Hugo (Caller): Yes. This was a very interesting and helpful conversation.

Frances Frei: If, if I was gonna summarize Hugo, what I would've heard from, should I disclose in the interview?

Likely not, but I might disclose. Characteristics again, so that if someone knew, they knew, but I would be talking about the things underneath the diagnosis. That's at least my summary of what I collectively heard.

Anne Morriss: Disclosure without disclosure. Yeah.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah. Small

Anne Morriss: D disclosure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Hugo (Caller): And perhaps in interview around two or so, let's say in the beginning.

Yeah.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Until the world catches up on, on really understanding these experiences of being human.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, very cool.

Anne Morriss: Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your story and B, both of you, for sharing your story and being part of this conversation, all of your wisdom and experience. I think you've helped a whole bunch of people today including us.

And

Frances Frei: Hugo, please keep us posted on how it goes. I'd love to hear along the way how it's going.

Anne Morriss: Luma and Hugo, thank you so much for joining us on Fixable and sharing your wisdom and experience with our listeners. You've helped a whole bunch of people today including us. Thank you. It was

Ludmila Praslova: fantastic to meet both of you.

And thank you hug also for being here.

Hugo (Caller): Yeah. And thank you all for the insights and for having me on, and I'm very optimistic about the future,

Anne Morriss: my love. I I wanna ask what you're thinking and how you're feeling, just for the absence of doubt. For anyone listening, where are you in your own journey of. Diagnosis? Well, yeah, potential

Frances Frei: diagnosis, disclosure. I didn't know how much legitimacy there was in the self-diagnosis and that sometimes it's even preferred.

So from the self-diagnosis side, I'm on the spectrum. Like you recognize yourself in these, I recognized myself in ways that were deeply liberating and that might be the parts of it, and it feels like I'm gonna. Be a more effective partner, leader, parent sibling as a result of it.

Anne Morriss: Will you say more about that? Why do you think that is?

Frances Frei: Because I, I, things that I thought were bugs and I would hide, I now know have the potential to be features. Mm-hmm. What's an example? My being a justice warrior? Mm-hmm. I don't have to do it in the middle of the night. When no one's watching. Right. My reaction to toxicity, it's not just something that I'm oversensitive to.

It's actually more canary-esque. Mm-hmm. And you and I know so well that early intervention matters. Right. And I might be onto something for early intervention when we get to address it, when it's a pebble, before it becomes a boulder. And then just so many other things like I have felt shame. Associated with not wanting to be in person around my colleagues, as much as my colleagues want to be around my colleagues.

Mm-hmm. But they're extroverts for the most part, and they're brainstorming even if they. Even if it's not high value add, from my perspective, it's high value add from their perspective. Right? And I don't need to be there all the time. I'm just feeling more legitimacy. And then I can use my words and say, these are exhausting for me.

I can do this amount, not this amount. And people will be delighted to help co-produce whatever that design looks like. So I think it's, I also just feel empowered to discuss it more. In productive ways and not to discuss it in like me ways just that in so that I can be a better Thomas the train. Mm-hmm

Useful engine. Better partner. Better colleague. Yeah. So I feel like I understand. I got, we got to look under the hood, got a little bit of look at the engine and I understand how it works a little bit. And I hope to be able to drive it better as a result.

Anne Morriss: To me, what's empowering too is the discuss ability of both categories, honestly.

Yeah. I, um, I have a neurotypical. I can't wait to use that word to be around other

Frances Frei: people. No. And that you seek variety and I seek routine. And I'm d desperate for variety. And your need for variety is the same as my need for routine. Right? And now when we discuss it, we love doing things for one another.

I would love to go to do some variety on behalf of you, because I know it's what you need. And you might eat the same meal for the fourth time in a row because. Because

Anne Morriss: I've been aware of, like this, this sensitivity piece. There has been, I think, a dynamic in our relationship and in our family where there is accommodation, there's been a heaviness to us because there's, we didn't have the language, you know, and it's, it's played out I think, in a way that.

Could be healthier because I can also own mine. Well now we get to a comedy category.

Frances Frei: No, I'm so excited to start accommodating my own neurotypical needs opposite, like you gotta accommodate the neurotypical among us. Right? Exactly.

Anne Morriss: Exactly. Yeah. I dunno, there's something empowering for me around that.

Yeah, too. Anyway, this is, this has been super cool and I almost wanna come back to it in a couple months after we've been able to,. Play with it internally as a family and see how we're doing and see how we're doing and let's, I really loved Lu Mill's framing around, let's run some experiments. It's so liberating.

And we do, and we think about that all the time in our work. Let's find out. Let's lower the stakes of this whole thing. Try some things, see if everybody does win. When we bring deeper awareness to this whole category of neurodiversity. Our strong suspicion is that the payoff is universal.

Frances Frei: I, which is in our wheelhouse of what we're trying to do in the world.

Anne Morriss: Thanks so much for listening to this episode. Your participation helps us make great episodes like this one. Listeners, please keep reaching out to us. If you wanna figure out a workplace problem together, send us a message. Email us@fixableatted.com or text us or call us at two three four fixable. That's 2 3 4 3 4 9 2 2 5 3.

This episode was produced by Rahima Nasa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Izzy Carter, Banban Chang, and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis from Story Yard.