How to mix business and family (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

[00:00:00] ANNE: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Fixable from the TED Audio Collective. I'm your host, Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:00:07] FRANCES: And I'm your co-host, Frances Frei. I'm a Harvard Business School professor and I'm Anne's wife.

[00:00:13] ANNE: Frances, on today's show, we are talking to a caller who, uh, goes to work every day with her husband. Kind of like you and me, baby.

[00:00:24] FRANCES: Um, I, I get asked so often, you know, with like a conspiratorial whisper, how do you do it? No, the more, the more they say, I could never do it. You know, what's going on? They're always asking so in such a puzzling way. So it'll be a pleasure to talk to a fellow traveler who has also walking down this beautiful path.

[00:00:48] ANNE: I know. So she is navigating the tricky territory of, yes, working with her husband, but also working inside a family business.

[00:01:00] FRANCES: Ooh.

[00:01:01] ANNE: That includes multiple family relationships here. So siblings, parent, child, in laws. And so it's a little bit of a harder climb than, than, than what you and I have.

[00:01:16] FRANCES: So my guess is that the family dynamics are going to be a bigger deal than the spousal dynamics. 

[00:01:24] ANNE: That's my suspicion as well. So let's listen to the voicemail. 

[00:01:30] LILY:  Hi, Anne and Francis. After being in business for more than 35 years in manufacturing, the small family business my husband and I work for is faced with a pivotal decision: turn the business around or sell, not only are we dealing with a generational divide between the owners who also happen to be my in laws, but also sibling infighting, changes in automation, personal spending, and a lot more. My husband and I wear a lot of hats trying to keep the business evolving. We are tired and want change. How do we work through the challenges of evolving an old business model impacted by our family dynamics and entitlement?  

[00:03:21] FRANCES: Oh, yeah. I mean, The extended family dynamics, that's very tricky. The spousal dynamics, we can get that to work.

[00:03:38] ANNE: Yeah. And if we, we can repurpose some of that energy that's going towards managing family dynamics and just put a fraction of it back on— 

[00:03:46] FRANCES: Oh my gosh.

[00:03:47] ANNE: —building this business, which I think has some exciting possibility to it, then that's going to be transformational for her experience of work.

[00:04:02] ANNE: Welcome to Fixable. We're going to call you Lily. You are the first caller on our show who is also here to talk about your spouse who we're going to call Steven, as a couple. We are thrilled to get into it with you. 

[00:04:17] LILY: We're really excited to chat and, and connect and, you know, gain some insights or perspective on some of the things we're navigating right now.

[00:04:28] ANNE: So I'd love to start by just getting to know you and the situation a little better. So talk to me about, about marrying into this family. 

[00:04:37]LILY: Um, so through the years of being married, I ended up staying at home. And then once my kids became teenagers, I said, I got to get back to work. I need something to do. But yet every single day we were talking about the ins and outs of this family business, and—

[00:04:54] FRANCES: You, you and Steven.

[00:04:56] LILY: Yes. So, he said, why don't you come work for us? And so it, it's a beautiful relationship where we can have the flexibility to allow me still to take care of the kids and still be at home, but also, help him and the business, as much as I can. The con to that situation is that there are times where he's like, enough. We're at home. It's a Sunday. I don't want to talk about work, leave me alone. Because it's just always on my mind and he's there and it's like, I just want to go, go, go. But I think because we do work so well together that it's like, inspiring and motivates you and it's like, what else can we do? You know, and when we get this positive feedback from employees about something that we both took initiative and did like, this feels good.

Or, when we are connecting with vendors and customers in ways that we've never done before. It's so much gratification. I love that. And maybe that's why I don't look at working elsewhere because I, I enjoy working with him so much.

[00:06:15] ANNE: Beautiful. So set the scene for us a little bit. So this is a, uh, it's a small manufacturing business. 

LILY: Yes, and so my in-laws bought the business approximately 35 years ago. They have relocated, they have expanded, built the building, and a lot has happened. So we had a meeting just recently and, um, I think the numbers don't lie and the meeting was asking us what our intentions were. Did we want to buy the business? And it was kind of a, not take it or leave it situation, but like either you kids all need to like step up and like, we have to really make 2025 matter or we're going to be in a position where we potentially have to sell.

We're at a crossroads right now with the business. I think the problems that we've encountered, and some that are out of our hands that a lot of businesses are struggling with coming out of the pandemic, working in manufacturing with automation and technology changes. We are fatigued at trying to influence some positive change.

[00:08:39] ANNE: You reached out for help, which, we were thrilled to receive your call. What are you hoping to get out of today's conversation? 

[00:08:47]LILY:: Yeah, so, looking at sales, there's a dramatic decline. And so, you know, in trying to find new avenues and new venues, I'm trying to influence investment tapping into some new opportunities, let's say, or maybe even from an operations perspective, changing how we're doing things internally so that we can deliver on time and offer the basic customer service that customers are demanding now more than ever. My father in law, he's part of the old boys network, in that if we go to a local trade show that I can just go walk the floor, cost me nothing. Um, I come back that day and he's like, well, do you have an order?

And the reality is, is convincing him or sharing with him that it takes time to network and to build and to build trust and that we have to invest in our marketing efforts, whether that's, improving our website or doing very like subtle things even is that the expectation is so great.  And this is kind of that shift in a generational business model that we're struggling with. 

[00:12:00] ANNE: Is it fair to say that you are optimistic about the prospects for the business with the kinds of changes that you just articulated?

[00:12:09] LILY: I'm optimistic, I think if I can get everybody on board and I think there is a frustrated sentiment, between some of the family members and that's where we've tried to look at, okay, it doesn't cost us any money to clean and organize and try to be more efficient in a lot of ways, right? We have to get these processes in order before we spend tons of money, let's say on a, uh, ERP system or new equipment. We have to kind of reel it back and start there. And so sometimes we get a lot of pushback, like we’re a machine shop, we don’t need to be clean, why do we need to be clean? And I say, well if I’m bringing a customer in here that works in defense or in the medical industry, this place needs to be as pristine as possible. And so, I am optimistic that change is possible, and I think it’s just a matter of influencing the stakeholders to shift their mindset.

[00:12:51] ANNE: Beautiful. Um, if we are wildly successful in this conversation today, what is different for you?

[00:13:01] LILY: Oh, gosh. That's a loaded question. I think just job security would be really great. And I know that if this were to go away, the impact that this would have on the business and the family, would be so detrimental to our whole family unit. And not to mention our 20 employees that depend on us. I look at these people every day and the things that they tell me and, We had an employee, she, we had a tornado that came through, our state two years ago, and it hit her area really, really hard. And I messaged her that Saturday and I said, you take as much time as you need. You let us know how we can support you. And she messaged me back and she was like, I can't tell you how much that means to me. My prior employer would have said, Why aren't you coming to work? Like, when will you be at work? What do you mean you need time off? She didn't end up having water for like 10 days and electricity. And so the livelihood of these people matter as much as my own, um, that I just like to see that job security for all of us.

[00:14:10] ANNE: And so best case scenario for you is a plan to build this business into a, a thriving going concern rather than, than sell it.

[00:14:22] LILY: Yes, correct,

[00:15:16] ANNE: Let's say the finances were not a constraint, like, can you see your way through the strategy of how to grow demand?

[00:15:33] LILY: Yes, I'd love to be attending trade shows. I'd love to be getting the marketing material a hundred percent up to date to put that lipstick on a pig and get out there. And, but, the cost of some of those things are, uh, very high. And so, uh, that's again, where we've creatively tried to seek out some of these manufacturing platforms that don't cost us anything or very nominal investment. So, when we connect with the right businesses, the opportunity is there. But I also feel operationally, we've worked so hard and this is where we have some issues with some of the employees that, as far as organization and getting orders out the door, I can't, I can't grow the business if I don't have cooperation to, uh, meet the customer needs and demands. So, that's where I've tried to work on fixing some of the operational deficiencies so that we can continue to retain and grow. 

[00:16:31] FRANCES: Yeah, so, it, it, this is a wonderful drama. I can see it in a, it's Shakespearean. So, you have the in laws who are, grew up and, and created the business and had the business flourish under a different time and under a different operating system. You're the next generation. You see that operating system that they used outdated and it wouldn't work today. But they still hold on to it. And so the natural thing, the parts of the story that I love is they're essentially like, well, then you go do it your way, which is exactly the right thing to say. Like you buy the company and then you can put in your own operating system. So in many ways, that feels like the very natural, progression of their money, their decision rights, your money, your decision rights. I'm even encouraged that they would like that to happen. So that's I think at the first level, the second level is, and you appear to me to be optimistic that you could fix the internal workings of the company and you could go out there and cultivate demand. So I don't know if your in laws would be employees after you buy the company. Actually, would they be employees after you buy the company?

[00:17:57] LILY: I think they would like to. I think that would be probably a part of their terms. I think our concern is with that, uh, if they remain that involved, whether it comes with a paycheck or otherwise, it's going to be challenging to move forward. We compare it to an episode of Arrested Development meets Succession. It, you know, we…there's a lot of dynamics here, right? 

[00:19:00] FRANCES: Yeah, but the clarity through it is, um, your parents, I mean, in the Succession thing, it was because the guy didn't want to let go. Your parents are willing to let go. 

[00:19:10] ANNE: I think even, I think that it's even starker. I think they have to let go. They're either letting go, they're either handing it over to the next generation or handing it over to a buyer who's gonna come in, um, with strategically less confidence, less optimism, like, and a low ball number because any buyer’s gonna suss it out.

[00:19:32] FRANCES: So, to me, it's about making a deal. And the deal has to have, and it's salary slash money that your parents take out, and my advice is to figure out what you need those to optimally be. And then you're in a position to negotiate. But you should figure out, imagine you had magic dust, what do you want it to be?

But if you design what you optimally need it, then you'll know where your walk away numbers are. But I wouldn't walk away prematurely because, to Anne's point, as soon as they start talking to other buyers and they realize they're not going to get nearly as much money as they thought, you might be a far more attractive alternative. So I don't want you to negotiate against yourself. I want you to figure out what would it take for you to buy the company. And design that and then make that discussable and if you can't get that then you won't buy the company. Now, separate thing, you two should definitely work together and go to the same, and we can talk about what you should do with all of your awesome creativity and can do spirit. This is not the only uh, playground for you to go and do there but I think you want to figure out what is your, what is [00:21:00] the deal you're willing to strike for this. 

[00:21:50] ANNE: I wanna pull back for a second on, on just a, a thread that Francis , 'cause I wanna really underline this. Here's to me a very cool headline in this story. You love building a business, and you love working with your husband. Like, however, this like convoluted way you arrived at these two things, uh, those are amazing conclusions to have reached at this point in your lives and in your kids lives where both of those things are possible. Do you feel that? Like, are those truths, are those statements that resonate as true for you?

[00:22:28] LILY: I think you're going to make me a little emotional because I hadn't really, um, ever until this conversation kind of put that all together. And so when you put it in those terms, um, yeah, it's tough. It's a really nice set of circumstances. I'm very fortunate. And I, I feel that way. And I think that's why there are days where I'm like, I'm done with this. I'm tired, but then there's other days where that inner feeling and gut is like, I, I do this for my husband, when I see how tired he is or, there's things that he can't do. I'm like, I'll do it. Give it to me. We'll figure it out, you know? So. The way that you said that is so beautiful.

[00:23:12] ANNE: You present to me as, um, a very, natural entrepreneur. That moment where you're describing where your husband is like, listen, I, honey, I can't talk about this company anymore. 

[00:23:15] FRANCES: It's Sunday afternoon, the football’s on.

 [00:23:19] ANNE:You know, like, but that your, your mind is constantly thinking about how to, like, how do I find leverage here? How do I solve a problem? How do I not spend any money? You know, like that, those, those are the, and those are the signals and underlying kind of mindsets of people who succeed in building businesses like this. So to me that's a very strong and exciting signal. And then it's clear that you plus Steven is, is like one plus one equals some number bigger than two, which is, is, is really the test of whether these partnerships are going to work. I suspect you make each other better, uh, in this operating environment. So that's very exciting to me. So I think you have a ton of leverage. To say we have to sell within the year, like to sell a company within a year when like, no work has been done to package it up. That is a very short timeline, right? Which means that really the only viable solution is for the next generation to step up.

[00:25:28] LILY:  So I think what you're saying, makes so much sense. And there are conversations that we've had for, not just in this moment. We've had this for years about the spending and the responsibility with cashflow.

[00:25:41] FRANCES: Yeah, but I, so may I step in here? Those conversations are not the conversations I think you need to have. Because what you're doing is trying to influence them as owners with decision rights. You gotta stop that.

[00:25:53] LILY: Okay.

[00:25:53] FRANCES: Don't try to get them to—

[00:25:54] ANNE: You have 35 years of information about how these guys are gonna run the business. It's not changing. Yeah.

[00:25:59] FRANCES: [00:26:00] So I think you just let go of all of that. Radical acceptance. Radical acceptance of that. What you're going to talk about is, If we buy the company, by the way, then they no longer have access to the checking accounts and things like that. They will receive only the money that you give them, and that will be predetermined, and it will be part of the deal. So I think the two most important— there’s three important deal parameters: what are you gonna pay for the business, and then how are you gonna pay it? Are the parents employees in an ongoing way or are they simply receiving distributions?  Like right now you see doing this or some horrible other big bureaucratic company. That's not your next job, I promise you. Oh my goodness, you two are gonna be working on a startup, so I need you to negotiate the purchase of this company as if you have other great alternatives. And that other great alternative is not part of a big, stodgy, bureaucratic mess. It's some scrappy awesomeness where you can get rewarded for thinking about it on Saturdays and Sundays, and you're really a part of it. 

[00:27:59] ANNE: Yeah, and I mean, maybe it's a services business, not a manufacturing business. So it's asset light and you guys are super scrappy and you are just helping people make connections. You're solving some problem in this industry that you've gotten to know so intimately, uh, as a couple between the two of you. But I think this is a really important point that I want to underscore this, this beautiful insight you have that you love to build businesses. And you love to work together, and oh, by the way, you love freedom and agency, right? For all kinds of reasons. Yeah. So you can be a fucking awesome mom, which you clearly are. Um, but also because it is important to you, uh, on, on a bunch of levels to live the life that you want to live. All of those things are possible outside of this company as well. Maybe even more possible, which is why it's so important to really try on these alternatives.

[00:29:03] LILY: You hit something on the head, and I think as far as a negotiating tool, they recognize the value of my husband, that without him here, it would be very problematic to continue in any capacity, whether it's, you us or a buyer.

[00:29:19] FRANCES: I think by the end of 2025, you will both get other jobs if the decision rights and ownership structure of the company isn't changed. And that's the way I would be approaching it. And you can say to them, look, we're going to give you 2025 to work out a deal with us. And here are the parameters that matter to us. And we totally understand if you can't do it. It's your business. It's your decision rights.

We're just telling you what our parameters are. And we will walk away happy if we don't reach it. It's totally fine if we don't. Anne often calls this sexy indifference.

[00:30:03] ANNE: Yeah. Get to the point of sexy indifference. And one tactic here might be to bring in a banker. Who can be the messenger? This is what it's gonna take to package the business and this is what we think you could get for it if we can find a buyer, you know, this is not this is not a fast moving market. So if we can find a buyer This is what I think the price is and this is the changes you would have to make over the next year to make this And even a viable purchase, right? And so you get a few get some third party data and, you know, you can have someone else from the outside come in and price it, and say, Okay, well here's our offer, see if you can go get a better one, and here are our terms.

[00:30:41] FRANCES: The liberty I want you to feel is you are no longer going to push the rock up the hill of trying to influence your in laws. It will not work.

[00:30:53] ANNE: This, that odyssey is over.

[00:30:55] FRANCES: That is over.

[00:30:55] ANNE: That’s over now. And now you're talking about a plan for the next 6 to 12 months. Which is find another buyer. We'll get our own offer. Like, let's, alright, let's package this up.

[00:31:04] ANNE: You're selling it to us or you're selling it to someone else. So let's go. Let's go. If we have to clean, like what's the minimum viable that we have to do to make this sellable, but let's figure out what the real economics of the business are. Let's make the basic changes, and then let's come up with what a fair price would be. Then you can start to weigh your options.

[00:31:57] ANNE: But let's weigh them with some expansive optimism here that this is not the only place you can go—

[00:32:05] FRANCES: And get agency.

[00:32:07] ANNE: —get agency and freedom and the chance to also do these other things that are critical to your life, like raise these, teenagers, um, and work with your husband and build something, like all of those things are also possible outside the four walls of this company.

[00:32:42] LILY: Yeah, no, I, it's so much. The third party piece of this is huge, because I think one of the dynamics that sometimes we struggle with is like, you know, I'm dad. Like what I say goes. It's hard to—

[00:33:12] ANNE: There are no objective parties in the room. Everyone is conflicted. Everyone's conflicted financially. Everyone's conflicted emotionally. You've got to bring in some, like, neutral third party arbiters here to get you through. Again, we're talking about the next 6 to 12 months.

[00:33:28] FRANCES: I want your in laws to feel you're walking away, because right now they feel you as captive. And they're going to treat you differently, but as soon as they feel you are one foot in and one foot out, I promise you, everything is going to start to feel different.

[00:33:57] LILY: Yeah, he's been told he's just an employee, and that it still is one of those comments that like, feels degrading, right?

[00:34:12] FRANCES: And so we're going to talk about—

[00:34:13] ANNE: And he’s so much bigger than an employee in this situation. 

[00:34:16] FRANCES: And I think what you're saying is, by the end of 2025, I'm either going to be an owner or not an employee. How may I be helpful to you during 2025? That's what I would say to the parents. We're going to give you a year for us to try to figure out if we're going to buy it, or we're leaving.

That's your decision right. 

[00:34:53] LILY: Right. Oh, this feels like a Dr. Laura episode, doesn't it? Like, it's so, so much drama, so many dynamics. It's, um, it's a lot, but I mean, we just had a meeting this week because I said, we got to talk about 2025. We have to start planning some goals. We have to brainstorm. We have to be forward thinking versus this month to month existence.

[00:35:19] ANNE: Yeah, but, you're no longer trying to influence the behavior of anyone else. Those are your decision rights. How do you want to behave? And then how do you communicate that to people who will be impacted by your decisions? But this is not a company meeting about about goals.

[00:35:53] FRANCES: This isn;t a brainstorming session. No, no. I don't think you want to participate in those anymore. I think what you want to do is say you're deciding whether or not you're going to buy the company or whether or not you're going to leave the company. And then you can also leave the ball in their court sometimes because if nothing happens, the default is you're leaving.

[00:36:25] FRANCES: Yeah.

[00:36:27] ANNE: Yeah. And you're, you're gonna, you're gonna be good. You know you're gonna be a good do, you're gonna be a good daughter-in-law and you're gonna be a good son. And if that means they wanna package the company up for the next 12 months and see what they can get for it, you'll help them. You'll help them.

[00:36:40] FRANCES: Mm hmm.

[00:36:41] ANNE: Yeah, you're delighted.

[00:36:48] LILY: So  I feel very validated that this thought that we could change and influence which has not happened is something that we have to stop doing. And without  everybody knowing who these characters are, I think that is, a big hurdle for us that we have to accept and we have to approach differently. And I think for a long time we took it upon ourselves to think it's our delivery. It's, you know, we have to sell it. We have to, change our perspective on things to try to get them to side with us or understand it differently.

[00:37:02] ANNE: You tried. In good faith, you tried. Like, have, have the peace to know that that was plan A and you tried to execute in, in very good faith.

[00:37:18] LILY: Yeah, and I don;t think that’ something we’ve really considered. We just kind of do, versus, okay, if we’re really going to continue working in these capacities. Especially approaching the new year, it's a good time for us to revisit and say, okay, what do we want our role to be like? We want security for the entire family, but not at the expense of the family. So I appreciate and love the insight to think about the next year a little differently.

[00:37:20] FRANCES: I, you know, I'm a very good guesser. Um, and I don't know if you're going to buy the company or leave the company. So to me it's like truly 50-50. I, like, I usually have a very good instinct in one, and what I hope to you is that you get to have a sexy indifference by you not knowing either. And so when you talk to them as if both of those are perfectly legitimate outcomes, a lot of good things will happen.

[00:37:51] LILY: Thank you so much. I, um, I started to feel a little emotional because you made me see some things a lot differently than I have when it comes to my marriage and my family and, um, kind of what our future looks like together, and appreciate the past in spite of so many hurdles, whether it be with family or business or otherwise.So I'm really grateful for the time to have these conversations.

[00:38:13] ANNE: Oh, Frances, I have to say I'm, I'm, uh, I'm feeling some optimism for Lily and this company.

[00:38:19] FRANCES: And having the clarity of, look, here are the terms of engagement. I can either do this or that. It's so clarifying for ourselves and it's so clarifying for other people to do it because otherwise we'll just replay the family dynamic script of I say this, you say that. It's like going to a perpetual Thanksgiving dinner.

[00:38:42] ANNE: Generationally there's gonna be a difference. And let's start from the point where we just radically accept that as where we are.

[00:39:02] FRANCES: And it's not clear to me that this isn't good advice for all of us.

[00:39:11] ANNE: When we think about what, what we want people to take away from this episode. So I would put that on the list, that just the power of radical acceptance. What, what else is on your list?

[00:39:20] FRANCES: I know of so many magnificent family businesses, in fact, some of the most well run organizations. But there is so much intentionality by everyone to understand that the business is this other, this thing that we all contribute to. It's this thing outside of us that we all respect and honor and we want to do things to keep it going.

[00:39:44] ANNE: I wanna underscore that point because you have colleagues that only  study family businesses. 

[00:40:09] FRANCES: And they are like my happiest colleagues.

[00:39:44] ANNE: They are your happiest colleagues. Family is not a synonym for dysfunction, but you do have to bring deep intention to parts of the business. 

[00:40:09] FRANCES: I might get this number wrong, but it's something like 50 percent of all businesses in the world. It's, it's just, it's astonished number. And I will, um, you know, there's some myths about family businesses that it starts, it goes to the next generation, then it gets ruined by the third generation. But what I find amazing are the ones that get stronger with every generation. And so, you know, my favorite family business in the world, and it's Sewell Automotive. 

[00:40:43] ANNE: Yes. 

[00:40:44] FRANCES: Um, and they're car distributors in Texas. And they are creating communities. Here's my favorite fun fact about Sewell. When 9 11, when the tragedy of 9 11 happened, people went to the dealerships just because they wanted to be in community with other people and that felt like the right place to go. That's the power of family businesses. And it's one of the great leverages, um, for wealth and prosperity and humanity and dignity in the world.

[00:41:24] ANNE: And scaling your values and worldviews. Yeah. I mean, that's such a beautiful example.

[00:41:30] FRANCES: I, if that's the measure I want Sewell to be a worldwide organization, could I, because I think we should scale their values.

[00:41:36] ANNE: To the planet. Yeah. Two more thoughts I just want to offer. Uh, One, I got in touch with how important, just a reminder, because you and I spend a disproportionate amount of time with big companies, just a reminder of how important small businesses are, not just to the economy, but to every single person who shows up, everyone who builds them, the opportunity to embed these organizations with your own values. I mean, they really have an outsized role in the health and well being of a society. And it was, to me, it was, it just was, it was energizing to see that come to life.

[00:42:19] FRANCES: I agree completely.

[00:42:21] ANNE: And then the other one is, is that, uh, the moms on your payroll may be your, may be your best workers and the, if you can give them some flexibility and agency to craft the how of the work, you can still define the what, but  you will get back in terms of loyalty and creativity. And I don't know that she would use the word passion but that's how it presented in terms of, uh, solving problems for this business.

[00:42:57] FRANCES: I mean, she presented so much as like she's willing to gnaw off a limb to get things done, and she wants to be able to go to the soccer game. If you provide the flexibility. to go to the soccer game, you will get such an outsized return. So you're right. Like the employee management system for moms, I can, I still, to this day, consider that to be the greatest one because they have, they know what it's like to not have flexibility and they'll do anything for it. They'll do anything for it. 

[00:43:24] ANNE: Yeah, and I speak Midwestern. I grew up in the Midwest. And so for anyone listening, that's fucking Midwestern passion right there. You might not have heard it, but I did. 

I want to thank you, our listeners for. Another wonderful season and year. We have had such a great time making this show with you and engaging on the issues that you care about and solving problems together. We have loved it and we have learned so much along the way and we couldn't be more grateful.

[00:44:23] FRANCES:Yes, my heart is full. My heart is full at the, that we get to do this and that we get to be Thomas the Train useful engines as we're doing it.

[00:44:43] ANNE: And of course, we are coming back with more episodes in late January. We're going to have some great stuff in the interim from podcasts that we love.So keep showing up on Monday morning. We will have some great content for you and keep sending us your workplace. Uh, and let us know if you'd like to come on the show and workshop them together with us. 

FRANCES: If you want to be on Fixable, please call us at 234 FIXABLE, that's 234 349 2253, or email us at fixable at ted. com. 

[00:45:37] ANNE: Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

[00:45:43] FRANCES: And me, Frances Frei.

[00:45:44] ANNE: This episode was produced by Rahima Nassa from Pushkin Industries. Our team includes Constanza Gallardo, Banban Chang, Daniela Ballarezo, and Roxanne Hai Lash.

[00:45:55] FRANCES: Our show is mixed by Louie at StoryYard.