The importance of validation with therapist Caroline Fleck (transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

[00:00:00] Caroline Fleck: Their emotions may be valid, even if their thoughts are not. Their behavior may be valid, even if their thoughts are not. And all I need to do is find which of those is valid and validate that. 

[00:00:14] Adam Grant: Hey everyone, it's Adam Grant. Welcome back to ReThinking, my podcast on the science of what makes us tick with the TED Audio Collective.

I'm an organizational psychologist, and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people to explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

My guest today is clinical psychologist Caroline Fleck. She's a therapist who teaches at Stanford and specializes in helping her clients connect and change.; Her new book, Validation, is a powerful read on building better relationships. 

[00:00:48] Caroline Fleck: You can contort yourself in all sorts of ways to meet other people's approval.

Validation communicates acceptance and belonging, and there's no need for contortion. It's just being as you are and being seen for that, and I think we do all deserve that.

[00:01:09] Adam Grant: Hey, Caroline. 

[00:01:10] Caroline Fleck: Hey. It's so great to speak with you. 

[00:01:12] Adam Grant: You've been the target of a lot of people's burdens and needs and unwanted emotions for a long time. 

[00:01:18] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . As a therapist, you mean? 

[00:01:21] Adam Grant: Even before that, as a third grader. 

[00:01:24] Caroline Fleck: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Emotionally sensitive. Sure. 

[00:01:28] Adam Grant: Tell me about that and why you decided you wanted to seek out more of it and turn it into your career.

[00:01:33] Caroline Fleck: Hmm. I talk about it as though it was a, a superpower, although at times there was a level of intensity to a lot of the conversations I found myself on the receiving end of. People just always opened up to me, and when I was younger, it could be odd because it was often even adults, and so I just seemed to have this capacity to get people talking. And I'm not the type of person who likes small talk. I don't like to sit around and talk about the weather. It drives me crazy. And so getting to actually see what's going on in people's lives, that's life, that's reality, and that's where I like to live. Being somebody that people talk to easily made me aware of how desperate people are for someone to talk to.

There's really a human need that we have to be heard so much so that it doesn't even matter almost who we're sitting across from. 

[00:02:26] Adam Grant: Having your friend's mom as a 9-year-old confess that her husband is cheating on her is a little extreme though, isn't it? Tell me that story. 

[00:02:34] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. I was waiting for my friend to come home from, I think it was dance practice, and I would often go to her house and just kind of hang out for a little bit and her mom would be there and we'd just chill for like 10 minutes until her daughter got back and then me and her daughter would go play in the basement.

And one day I come home and there's just like the energy is off. You know, it's not hostile, it's just off. I'm just kind of keeping quiet, trying to feel out what's going on. And then out of nowhere the mom spills a two liter of, of Pepsi on the floor and just starts bawling. So I immediately like, kind of bend down and, and help her.

But in that moment, as I'm helping to clean it up, I realize that these tears are bigger than Pepsi could possibly explain. Like there's more going on here. And so I vividly remember slowing down. We were like mopping up the Pepsi and I put my hand on top of her hand and I said, are you okay? And she just kind of stopped moving and started rocking back and forth and said,

you're not gonna understand this. You can't understand this, but he's cheating on me. And I remember making this conscious decision because as a third grader, it was always like Mr. And Mrs. In that moment, I kind of made myself more of a peer, even just saying his name in that way, all of the story just started to come out.

But like again, I'm like, oh my, and part of me is like, I've got a window into what's going on with adults. They trust me. Like, this is cool. This is power. 

[00:04:08] Adam Grant: Wow. That sounds extremely uncomfortable. 

[00:04:11] Caroline Fleck: Hmm. Interesting. Uncomfortable. You think so? 

[00:04:14] Adam Grant: I do. 

[00:04:14] Caroline Fleck: How come? 

[00:04:15] Adam Grant: Because it's crossing a major boundary. Like the subject matter is inappropriate for a 9-year-old. As an adult figure in your life, she's supposed to be looking out for you, not leaning on you.

[00:04:29] Caroline Fleck: Mm. I can see that like from an adult's perspective, right? From from where I am now. At the time, it honestly didn't feel like that because I felt like I was already holding so much tension. It felt weirder to not know what was wrong with someone. And I often find that to be the case. When you actually find out what's going on with people, and often you find out it's not about you, which is everybody's worst fear, it becomes easier to dialogue. 

[00:04:54] Adam Grant: That's fair. Okay. So knowing what you know now as a therapist, what should someone in that position say? 

[00:05:02] Caroline Fleck: I, I lucked out and, and just happened upon some of the right things. So that moment of putting my hand on, on her hand. So I didn't actually say anything there, but that was a level of communication.

It was a, a subtle comfort and in some sense it was giving permission. And so I think that's a pretty good move in that moment when somebody is being vulnerable, to allow yourself to be tender in response to that. In those situations, you can feel that the person is holding so much back and they don't really need your interpretation of what's going on.

They don't need you to say much. They just need you to make it okay for them to speak. And so saying less is actually more in those situations, in my opinion. 

[00:05:44] Adam Grant: Is that, is that a basic version of validation then? 

[00:05:47] Caroline Fleck: Yeah, it is. Well, actually not even basic. So when I teach validation, I teach, uh, eight skills basically that help you communicate it to varying degrees.

And that one of touch, that reaching out and basically soothing somebody, that's a pretty high level of, Hey, it's okay, I accept you, you're safe here. It's a high level of validation as opposed to just kind of paying attention we could consider to be a lower level. 

[00:06:19] Adam Grant: So you think that validation might be the single most important social skill we have.

[00:06:24] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. I do. 

[00:06:25] Adam Grant: Tell me what it is and why you think it matters so much. 

[00:06:28] Caroline Fleck: Okay, so we've got the academic definition, which is that validation communicates that one is mindful, they understand and they empathize with another person's experience, thereby accepting it as valid. So it has those three components, mindfulness, understanding, and empathy.

And when they're combined, they often have the effect on the other person of helping them feel accepted. My basic version for validation is that it just shows that you're there, you get it and you care. So when I'm trying to validate somebody, those are basically the marks I'm trying to hit. That's what I'm focused on.

In my opinion, validation is tantamount to compassion or maybe even love in a sense. My experience has been that folks don't have a great understanding of what validation is, much less how to communicate it. Imagine if you didn't understand what compassion was or exactly how to express it or engage compassion.

Your life would seem so different in so many ways, right? Like you would be missing something. That's how validation is to me. I, I see it in much the same way as I, I see terms like empathy or mindfulness or even like emotional intelligence, some of these terms from my field that have made their way out of academia and into the mainstream, and that people very much orient their lives around now.

[00:07:58] Adam Grant: I think a lot of people, when they hear the, the term validation, um, they misunderstand it right away. 

[00:08:04] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . 

[00:08:04] Adam Grant: And you're very clear in saying validating others is not praising them. 

[00:08:08] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . 

[00:08:09] Adam Grant: It's not giving them approval and it's not agreeing with them. 

[00:08:12] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . Let me ask you, do you think it's important to validate, say your kids or your wife or other people, just with the most basic understanding of the term validation?

Is that something you would've said?

[00:08:23] Adam Grant: Sometimes. 

[00:08:23] Caroline Fleck: Sometimes. Okay. Alright. Do you think it's important to seek external validation. 

[00:08:29] Adam Grant: Sometimes? 

[00:08:31] Caroline Fleck: Ooh, sometimes! You are a rare one. Most people, when I suggest that they seek external validation, they're like, oh, no, no, no, I, I don't do that. I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't tell anybody to do that, as though it's like this very dangerous thing.

Most people seem to understand that it's important on some level, in some cases, to provide validation, but never, ever to seek it. Like, what does it mean? Why is it okay to give it, but bad to receive it, right? And usually what's going on there is that folks are confusing external validation with praise.

Okay? Praise is a judgment. And so they're saying if you're, if you're externally seeking praise all the time, we can see where that would be problematic, right? You can contort yourself in all sorts of ways to meet other people's approval, but validation communicates acceptance and belonging. And there's no need for contortion.

It's just being as you are and being seen for that, and I think we do all deserve that. 

[00:09:29] Adam Grant: I love that distinction. It just reminds me that like people don't need you to agree with them as long as they feel that you understand them. 

[00:09:37] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . 

[00:09:38] Adam Grant: One of the things that really appeals to me about the idea of conveying acceptance and belonging is that actually makes it easier for me to tell you that we're not entirely on the same page.

Like, but I still have your back. I still like you. I'm still rooting for you.

I wanna talk about when and how to validate people. Let's start with the how, because I think the, the skills that you unpack are extremely practical here. And my, my two favorites are contextualizing and equalizing. We have a lot of parents listening, trying to figure out like, your kid comes home from school, they're feeling left out.

How do you validate them? 

[00:10:16] Caroline Fleck: I think us parents, nine times out of ten, we hear our child is being left out and we immediately wanna solve that problem. It hurts us to hear them. Your hand is going . 

[00:10:29] Adam Grant: I, I'm, I'm already thinking through the steps you should take to fix that. 

[00:10:32] Caroline Fleck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I'm the same and, and the steps I could take.

What haven't I done as a parent? I haven't set up any play dates. Oh my God, I've been so busy with work. How was this not on my radar? How am I just hearing about it now? Right? My mind goes in a million different directions to try and solve that problem. So actually as a first step, I need to notice that inclination to problem solve, and I need to do a gear shift.

And it feels like a mental gear shift towards, I'm just going to try and listen. I'm just going to communicate that it's okay, what they're feeling is okay. I wanna understand what they're, what they're feeling, and I might ask some questions, or I will just suggest some things. Because children, they don't have the, the greatest emotional vocabulary.

And so I might say something like, you must be disappointed. You must be confused, right? What are you doing wrong? These are things you might be wondering. I'm actually just kind of putting myself in their head space and helping them sort out what they're thinking and feeling. And that in and of itself is very validating, right?

Because you are putting words to things that they might not have been able to articulate otherwise. 

[00:11:46] Adam Grant: Talk to me a little bit about what contextualizing is and then how you would do it. 

[00:11:50] Caroline Fleck: Contextualizing is an understanding skill, so I, I mentioned before that validation includes these components of mindfulness, understanding and empathy.

If you can understand where someone is coming from, then you're in a position to use contextualizing and or equalizing. If not, you just need to be mindful, and that's all you can do is, is pay attention. But if you do understand, your task is to try and communicate to somebody that their response is logical.

With contextualizing, you are looking at the bigger picture. Perhaps their reaction isn't immediately understandable if you look at the circumstances. I need to zoom out and look at the larger context to try and understand where that reaction is coming from. 

[00:12:39] Adam Grant: It tracks with what a mentor used to say to me.

Uh, she would say behavior always makes sense from the actor's perspective, otherwise they wouldn't do it. 

[00:12:46] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. Often the behavior or the reaction that you're responding to is one that that doesn't seem effective, that seems quote unquote wrong. When I was working in the VAs, I was working with a group of folks who were just back from active duty. And I start speaking, talking about some model of something or other, some skills they could use.

And down the hall there's this loud door slam. And Adam, two thirds of that group ducked, to like get under their chair. And then even though they had all kind of had a similar response, they come up and you can just kind of see the embarrassment on their face, right? Like, this is, this is not quote unquote, normal behavior.

This is not a normal reaction given where we are. However, if I zoom out and I look at the larger context, of course they're reacting that way. They just came back from active duty, right? For them, for months, a loud noise could mean death was imminent , and so they're trying to protect themselves. That makes total sense.

So if I wanna validate the men and women in that group, I would speak to that larger context, but at no point am I saying that's an effective response right now. It's not necessary in this situation, and yet it makes sense. 

[00:14:10] Adam Grant: Mm-hmm . Okay, so how would equalizing look different in that same circumstance?

[00:14:15] Caroline Fleck: Equalizing is arguably easier because it essentially says anybody in your shoes would do the same. It's looking at somebody's reaction to a situation and saying, oh yeah, that makes total sense. And we tend to come by this one more easily because we don't have to do as much legwork. Equalizing simply says, ah, if I were in your shoes, I would do the same.

[00:14:37] Adam Grant: When I think about the people that come to me for validation, whe whether it's a student wanting my stamp of approval on the career choice that they're deeply ambivalent about but feel pressure or obligation to pursue, and usually it involves like foregoing something meaningful in favor of making a lot of money.

[00:14:53] Caroline Fleck: I would not validate that, by the way, but keep going, . 

[00:14:55] Adam Grant: I try not to either, but I want to validate them. 

[00:14:58] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. 

[00:14:58] Adam Grant: Their ambivalence is valid. 

[00:15:00] Caroline Fleck: Yes. There you go. You can totally validate the ambivalence. That makes sense. That's valid. 

[00:15:04] Adam Grant: Um, but in a lot of those cases I'm like, yes, given like the fact that you took out a lot of student loans or you need to support your family, your current priorities make perfect sense.

They're understandable. But this is not the only way to think about your choice set. 

[00:15:23] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . 

[00:15:24] Adam Grant: And there, there are lots of situations I, I, I find particularly when people are looking for emotional validation, where I wanna say, your, your feelings are completely understandable. They're also completely unnecessary.

[00:15:35] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm . When I think about validation, I don't have to validate the entirety of someone's response. I look at their thoughts, their behaviors, and their emotions as kind of independent, um, parts of their experience that I could validate. So their emotions may be valid, even if their thoughts are not. Their behavior may be valid, even if their thoughts are not.

And all I need to do is find which of those is valid and validate that. That's complicated. That sounds, uh, confusing, doesn't it? 

[00:16:13] Adam Grant: You had a phrase in the book that I loved, you said, only validate the valid. 

[00:16:16] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . 

[00:16:17] Adam Grant: When I was first learning about your perspective on validation, I was like, wait a minute, this is dangerous.

Not all opinions are valid. Not all emotions are appropriate. Part of what I, I try to do for people in my life and in my audience is to help them rethink their assumptions and question their feelings, right? Not to like go around just wanting to , to, um, engrave them in stone. 

[00:16:40] Caroline Fleck: As a clinical psychologist, I am seeing folks who are struggling in some pretty profound ways, and often their behavior or their thought process is wildly ineffective. And so it's easy for me to focus on that because it's so salient. As human beings, we are naturally drawn towards what doesn't make sense or what's wrong. That's our innate negativity bias, right? If I don't see how that person's emotions make sense in light of what they are thinking, I'm going to wildly invalidate them.

I'm going to be basically trying to change their thoughts. But that will not work because they will not feel seen by me. 

[00:17:29] Adam Grant: This strikes me as one of the moments when cognitive behavioral therapy often fails people, and your preferred approach of dialectical behavioral therapy can be useful. I wanna ask you about the distinction, but my understanding of cognitive behavioral therapy is that often you go right to the irrational thought.

[00:17:47] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm . 

[00:17:48] Adam Grant: Or the invalid belief that somebody has formed and try to reason them through it. And that works really well if you're somebody like me who processes almost everything by reasoning. But if you're somebody for whom emotion tends to dominate, there's the risk that people actually feel threatened by you questioning one of their core ideas about the world.

[00:18:07] Caroline Fleck: Mm-hmm .

[00:18:08] Adam Grant: It's a more empathetic approach. Um, and ironically, then it allows them to actually be more open to admitting that they might be wrong about something. Is validation the core of dialectical behavioral therapy? How is it different from CBT? I'm sure we have some people who have dabbled in both with us. 

[00:18:28] Caroline Fleck: So cognitive behavioral therapy and dialectical behavior therapy. They are focused on behaviorism as the terms imply. Behaviorism is all about change. It's using reinforcement and punishment and conditioning to try and change usually people's behaviors. In the case of CBT, you're also trying to challenge their thought process. Very change oriented approaches, and they are very effective a lot of the time, but not all the time.

And DBT was created by this woman, Marsha Linehan, who was trying to treat a population for which we had no effective treatments at the time, and that was folks struggling with borderline personality disorder. Folks who were engaging in self harm, had high rates of suicidality. As she often said, I was focus all trying to help them solve their problems and, and, and feel better.

And everyone just hated me, right? They, they felt like I was just constantly trying to change them. I didn't understand and they hated me. And so she said she switched gears and tried going just all acceptance and unconditional positive regard, and people loved her and nobody got better . 

It wasn't until she combined those two strategies.

And in all honesty, she really kind of fleshed out the acceptance stuff. She got really into Zen Buddhism and she developed these validation skills. And once she balanced the behavioral change emphasis with a corresponding emphasis on communicating acceptance, boom. That's when the magic happened. All of a sudden we had an evidence-based treatment for a population that had until that point been considered untreatable.

And so that kind of spread like wildfire throughout clinical psychology, and we started to see a lot more therapies based on that model of acceptance and change. 

[00:20:34] Adam Grant: I, I read a meta-analysis recently suggesting that dialectical behavior therapy was consistently effective for helping people manage anger.

Talk to me about what that looks like. Like I'm thinking about like if a client comes in and is struggling with anger issues, what? What do you actually say to them? How do you work through that balance of acceptance and change? 

[00:20:57] Caroline Fleck: It really depends if the anger is focused at me versus if it's at another person.

[00:21:01] Adam Grant: Let's, let's say it's anger at their partner. 

[00:21:04] Caroline Fleck: Okay. 

[00:21:04] Adam Grant: Not contributing in, like in childcare, basically you, you feel like you're the one sort of carrying the relationship and resentment is brewed and every little thing your partner does then kind of leaves you to fly off the handle. 

[00:21:20] Caroline Fleck: Well, so let me ask you then, what is the, what's the outcome you're seeking?

[00:21:24] Adam Grant: Well, I think for the client, the goal is to change the partner's behavior. 

[00:21:29] Caroline Fleck: Mm, mm-hmm . 

[00:21:30] Adam Grant: And for the partner, the goal is for the client to stop being so angry. 

[00:21:33] Caroline Fleck: Mm. Okay. So if I'm speaking just with the person who is angry, I, I can of course validate their anger. I can look for all, all sorts of, um, examples based on what they've told me about how their partner is not pulling their weight. And I will say to them, you can be right all day, but that doesn't mean you're gonna be effective. And so with anger, it often is about making that decision between, do I wanna be right or do I wanna be effective? Because if I wanna be right, then I can just be angry and yell at them every single time.

And say you, you're not emptying the dishwasher. We talked about that. And that might be right, but it will not be effective. And so if you want change, you usually have to regulate anger, okay? Unless you wanna live in like a hostile regime, which I don't think you want your home to be. So now we're into self-regulation strategies, right?

This is all of your basic anger management stuff. This is timeout, this is face in freezing cold water to drop your heart rate, and I'm going to have them practice those skills with me in session and then practice using them in real life with their partner when they're angry. It's fun stuff. 

[00:22:48] Adam Grant: Fair. Okay.

Let's go to the question of when to validate versus when to problem solve. I am on the record as somebody who often just jumps right to the solution , that that's actually what I want the other person to do. So I'm, I'm projecting my preference onto many people who don't share it. But when is my impulse appropriate and when do I need to take care to validate first?

[00:23:14] Caroline Fleck: So, I'm gonna let you off the hook here. 

[00:23:16] Adam Grant: Don't. You're, you're not helping anyone by letting me off the hook on this. 

[00:23:21] Caroline Fleck: Actually, if validation was more widely understood, ultimately what we should be able to do is ask people and tell people what we want. So your partner, your children, whomever, should be able to say to you, listen, I don't want problem solving right now.

I just want validation. If they don't have that vocabulary, you can introduce it. You can ask, do you want validation right now or problem solving. So this is how we talk in my house. And you would probably presume that as the person who literally wrote the book on validation, I would be pretty good at this and would get it right.

No. I screw it up all the time. I screwed it up this past weekend. My daughter will say, I want validation. And I'll start validating, and then I'll quickly start problem solving. And she'll say, mom, no, I wanted validation. And I'll say, okay, okay, okay, sorry. Yeah, you're right. And so it is about having the self-awareness for what you need, but then having also the mindfulness in communication to consider upfront what does this other person need?

So you could ask them point blank. Absolutely open with validation if you're not sure. 

[00:24:29] Adam Grant: That doesn't let me off the hook. Good. How do you think about this in the context of accountability? I'm thinking about validation at work, like as a manager. Let's say you have somebody who's consistently falling short of their goals.

Like, you know, I understand that you're in a tough situation right now, but also like we have goals that we need to achieve that we're relying on you for and you're letting us down. That's gonna feel invalidating at the end of the day. 

[00:24:55] Caroline Fleck: No, not necessarily. I think we're afraid of that. The truth is both things can be simultaneously true, and most people are capable of balancing those two realities. It's when we insist that they must be one way or the other. That's when we paint ourselves into a corner. So we're so concerned that invalidating the other person, we're gonna reinforce their bad behavior or their lack of productivity, or whatever the case may be.

Please experiment with it. Truly, you will find that that is not the case. You are allowed to say, I can totally understand where you're coming from. This has been a really hard time X, Y, or Z. And this isn't working out. Both of those things can simultaneously be true, and they often are. 

[00:25:41] Adam Grant: Do you have a way of communicating that that makes it a little bit easier to digest?

Is is what I'm wondering. In part, because I'm thinking about the evidence on primacy and recency effects and how , it's very easy for people to just over index on like the good news they heard at the beginning around validation and then sort of dismiss or discount the later message that says this is not working out.

[00:26:11] Caroline Fleck: Hmm. I think it's all in the delivery there because we're also really sensitive to negative feedback. But if the implication is that this is bad for you and you land that message just as well as you land the validation part, folks are gonna hear it. Moreover, they're going to feel more inclined to do right by you, given that you are someone that they feel understood and or seen by.

I'm not really motivated to rise to the occasion for people whom I don't respect. I feel all sorts of obligation to people who have been there for me and who are making an effort to understand where I'm at. 

[00:26:54] Adam Grant: Okay. One other scenario I wanna ask you about, which is, thinking about the wildfires in LA recently, a lot of people are struggling to figure out what to communicate to, to people who have been evacuated, people who have lost their homes, especially because they feel like a lot of the victims are fairly privileged.

And what would you advise in terms of making people feel seen in an extreme circumstance like that? 

[00:27:19] Caroline Fleck: If you've not been in that situation, I don't think that you can pretend to understand. I, I think that's a mistake. What those situations require truly is just the, the mindfulness. I, I can't possibly understand what this person is going through, but I can attune to and feel their suffering, and I can create a space in which they can speak to or about that suffering.

I can just listen. I can encourage them to speak. I think when you're talking about that situation of privilege, folks can feel like, well, nobody is gonna understand or empathize with somebody who has so much money. The fact of the matter is that suffering is suffering, okay? And every single person suffers, and every single person does well to be seen in their suffering.

It is helpful for folks to feel seen in that experience and, and so in providing that, you only do good. And so in a situation like that where you can't personally relate, I don't think you have to, and I don't think you should pretend that you can. I do however, think that you should stay present and encourage the other person to talk about what's going on for them.

[00:28:40] Adam Grant: How do you think about the, the problem of oversharing? 

[00:28:44] Caroline Fleck: Hmm.

[00:28:46] Adam Grant: Or you know, or dumping. I think most people can relate to the experience of someone just sort of like unloading all of their emotional baggage and being disrespectful of your time or maybe like crossing a line of what might be appropriate for the level of relationship you have.

And of course you want them to feel seen, but you also wanna set a boundary there. 

[00:29:10] Caroline Fleck: The behavior of oversharing in whatever scenario we're envisioning here, it's not effective. Okay? Right? They're not making good use of my time. I'm feeling mistreated or misused. As a result, I'm hearing more than I want.

I'm getting burnt out, right? I can validate a little bit and then set limits on my time. And if I'm worried that the validation is functioning as reinforcement, if I realize that, if I worry that in being so validating, I'm encouraging this person to unload, then I can scale back the validation. 

[00:29:41] Adam Grant: So what would that look like?

What would you say to that person? 

[00:29:43] Caroline Fleck: Hmm. Yeah, so I come across this just constantly in the work that I do because I am people's go-to person. And so once they have that connection with you, they want that connection all the time. But I'm frequently getting text messages and emails at all hours from folks in varying degrees of distress, and that will quickly burn you out.

And I'm pretty good at setting limits with folks. I think people typically use the term boundaries. Psychologists often use limits instead, but my limit would be, Hey, listen, if you text me after nine o'clock, I'm not gonna respond. And if you keep texting me after nine o'clock, I'm probably gonna start to dislike you at some point.

[00:30:24] Adam Grant: You tell people that? 

[00:30:25] Caroline Fleck: Oh, yeah, yeah. 

[00:30:25] Adam Grant: Directly? 

[00:30:25] Caroline Fleck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:30:26] Adam Grant: If you text me repeatedly after nine o'clock, I am gonna stop liking you. 

[00:30:30] Caroline Fleck: Uh huh. . 

[00:30:30] Adam Grant: Just, I just want you to know the consequences. 

[00:30:32] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. And I'll do it with a little bit of, of humor, but it's also true. Setting your limits upfront with folks is so much easier than doing it after the fact.

[00:30:43] Adam Grant: If you don't get it preventatively, the early intervention in response is important. And I, I can see saying to that person, you know, normally I actually block people who keep texting me at 2:00 AM but I like you so much that I didn't do that. Please don't force me to change that. 

[00:30:58] Caroline Fleck: Adam. Beautiful.

That was like a therapist right there. That's perfect like that. Saying something like that. 

[00:31:04] Adam Grant: I, I definitely don't wanna be qualified for, for any kind of therapy, but I'm glad, uh, I'm glad you didn't hate my response.

Let's go to a lightning round. What is the worst advice that people give about how to validate others? 

[00:31:25] Caroline Fleck: What's the worst advice people give about how to validate others? It probably has to do with confusing praise with validation. The confusion is that it, that the validation should be specific to the product, to somebody's outcome or their performance. And really validation should focus on the person. So it's great that you spent all Christmas break working on the, the coding that we needed to get done. You did an amazing job. Everything is running so much smoother. Say thank you. That's praise. Validation says, and it really sucks that you had to do that over the holidays.

You must feel burnt out. You must feel resentful, frankly, that you had to carry so much of the weight. I'm sorry that that was the case. I hope we can do better next year, whatever the case may be. Okay. So not confusing those two I think is important. 

[00:32:21] Adam Grant: That's excellent. What is something you've rethought in the course of your work?

[00:32:27] Caroline Fleck: You know what? Something I've rethought recently is social media. I never thought I was gonna rethink this one. I would, have always been pretty against social media for all of the obvious reasons, and I'll maintain that. I don't think it's great for me personally on like a mindfulness level. Okay. Which is something I really value. But I've started doing just the teeny, tiniest bit of social media in promoting this book, and I'm blown away by how much more effective it is at getting the message out. I was so worried, I think, about all of the misinformation that is perpetrated or that circulates as a function of, of social media that I under-indexed on its potential to circulate evidence-based information or meaningful information. 

[00:33:18] Adam Grant: Oh, well, welcome to the 21st century. 

[00:33:21] Caroline Fleck: You said something to the effect of like, social media is just another way of giving or sharing information. Something to that effect. 

[00:33:29] Adam Grant: Caroline, what's the question you have for me? 

[00:33:31] Caroline Fleck: Adam, I know that you are a fan of Survivor, as am I, and I'm really off topic here, but would you, have you ever considered applying to go on Survivor?

[00:33:42] Adam Grant: I have. My, my kids are trying to talk me into it. 

[00:33:44] Caroline Fleck: Same, same, same same. 

[00:33:45] Adam Grant: I got a note from a producer asking if I was ready to submit an application and I said no. 

[00:33:51] Caroline Fleck: Adam, it's the adventure of a lifetime. 

[00:33:54] Adam Grant: Is it though? I don't think I want to be any more public than I already am. 

[00:33:58] Caroline Fleck: Fair. 

[00:33:59] Adam Grant: And it's a month away from family.

I'd never go away for longer than a week. 

[00:34:03] Caroline Fleck: I know, I know. 

[00:34:03] Adam Grant: And I try to do less than that always. 

[00:34:06] Caroline Fleck: But it's Survivor. Do you think you'd do well? 

[00:34:09] Adam Grant: I would love to see a season of social and behavioral scientists as contestants. 

[00:34:14] Caroline Fleck: I, I totally agree. I have thought this many times. It would be an excellent one. 

[00:34:19] Adam Grant: I think that would be fascinating and I feel good about going into that environment.

[00:34:23] Caroline Fleck: I think I'd be the first one voted out. I'm a great liar, I think. But for some reason in these games, I'm the number one suspect and like that is all Survivor, so I know I would be the first one out. If I wasn't, then I'd do fine. Otherwise I'm toast. 

[00:34:36] Adam Grant: You'd have to hide your profession. 

[00:34:37] Caroline Fleck: Oh yeah.

[00:34:37] Adam Grant: Right away.

[00:34:38] Caroline Fleck: Oh yeah. That's basic. That's basic 101 Survivor. 

[00:34:41] Adam Grant: Let me ask you one other question as we wrap, which is, you asked me a really interesting question at the beginning about seeking validation. Should we ever do it? And I said sometimes. When do you think people should seek validation and how should we ask for it?

[00:34:57] Caroline Fleck: So let me reframe that. Do you think that you should seek acceptance and belonging? 

[00:35:01] Adam Grant: Of course, everyone should. 

[00:35:02] Caroline Fleck: Yeah. Those are kind of the synonyms in my mind. Again, I think for most folks, the synonyms they associate with validation really are like praise and stuff like that. But if you would seek acceptance and belonging, then you should seek validation. Mark, Mark Leary, great social psychologist, has a quote that I absolutely love. I'm gonna butcher it, but it's something to the effect of, humans are distinct from animals, not in their desire to affiliate and engage, but in their need for acceptance. And I think that really, really speaks to the power of validation because if you can meet that need, you're meeting a basic need. That's a lot of power. . 

[00:35:47] Adam Grant: Caroline, thanks. This is, this was a blast. 

[00:35:49] Caroline Fleck: Hmm. Thank you, Adam. It was lovely to speak with you.

[00:35:57] Adam Grant: Caroline reminds us that in hard times, people don't want to be told to look on the bright side. They wanna know that you're on their side. Even if you can't help them feel better, you can always help them feel seen. The best way to support others is not always to cheer them up. It's often to show up.

ReThinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is part of the TED Audio Collective, and this episode was produced and mixed by Cosmic Standard. Our producers are Hannah Kingsley Ma and Aja Simpson. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our fact-checker is Paul Durbin. Original music by Hans Dale Sue and Allison Leighton Brown.

Our team includes Eliza Smith, Jacob Winnick, Samaya Adams, Roxanne Hai Lash, Banban Cheng, Julia Dickerson, Tansica Sunkamaneevongse and Whitney Pennington Rogers.

[00:36:48] Caroline Fleck: I was a competitive baton twirler for like 10 years and it was like super intense. I would not recommend competitive baton twirling for any other reason, but yeah, the tenacity and grit is, is hard to come by otherwise. 

[00:37:05] Adam Grant: You definitely have baton twirler energy . 

[00:37:08] Caroline Fleck: So do you, and I mean that sincerely.