Why you should be honest with your coworkers (Transcript)

[00:00:00] Anne Morriss:
So Frances, I've been thinking about the romance of leadership, which is this idea that you're essentially…

[00:00:08] Frances Frei:
You have it or you don't have it.

[00:00:09] Anne Morriss:
You have it or you don't. You're born with it. And I think it can get in the way of a couple of things, including graceful career advancement because sometimes we're promoting people beyond their capacity, uh, to manage others.

[00:00:28] Frances Frei:
You know, being a faculty member at the Harvard Business School. I believe management and leadership can be taught.

[00:00:34] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:00:34] Frances Frei:
So we all have the capacity to do it, but because you have the capability to do it doesn't mean you have the motivation to do it.

[00:00:43] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:00:43] Frances Frei:
Doesn’t mean it sparks joy. But if we were going to teach someone management, there's some basic blocking and tackling. You know, are people satisfied in their work? Are they given a steady set of increasingly difficult responsibilities so that they can stretch and grow? Um, but all of those things take a chunk of time.

In fact, good managers probably spend 50 percent of their time at a minimum on thinking about the performance of others. There are some people—and some people at some times—for which they just want to do the work.

[00:01:21] Anne Morriss:
Right. Right.

[00:01:21] Frances Frei:
They don't want to manage other people doing the work.

[00:01:26] Anne Morriss:
Right. Yeah, I think it’s, it's an important distinction, and I also think it's important to challenge this assumption that progressing in my career means that more and more humans need to rely on me so that I am spending all of my time, uh, thinking about the behavior and performance and needs of other people at a moment in my career where my, I may be wanting to contribute in other ways.

[00:01:52] Frances Frei:
You know, I think a lot about the organizations that you started. There are like, there's individual contributor level one and then individual contributor level two. And you can go up to a very senior level and still be an individual contributor because they're deep experts.

[00:02:07] Anne Morriss:
Right. Right.

[00:02:07] Frances Frei:
It often happens in the scientific fields. And the last thing I want is someone who's like a beautiful scientist having some ambition, and that means I have to go into dilute that and go into management.

[00:02:20] Anne Morriss:
Right. Which we see all the time.

[00:02:21] Frances Frei:
Yeah. And so one of the things we do is advise organizations to have worthy individual contributor paths and worthy management paths.

[00:02:30] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. And in my defense, I never labeled a job level one, level two, level three. But I will say there was a clear, uh, expert path—

[00:02:42] Frances Frei:
Yes. That’s much better.

[00:02:42] Anne Morriss:
—to status and impact and compensation in the organization.

[00:02:47] Frances Frei:
Yes.

[00:02:47] Anne Morriss:
And that was a, that was a very deliberate choice because I think what we see all the time is, is people still even in 2023 getting promoted out of that, not just their expertise, but out of their joy and out of their passion for the work. And I think when we get creative about those pathways and job design, that's, those are trade offs we don't have to make.

Welcome to Fixable, I'm Anne Morriss. I'm a company builder and leadership coach.

[00:03:18] Frances Frei:
And I'm Frances Frei, I'm a professor at the Harvard Business School, and I’m Anne’s wife.

[00:03:21] Anne Morriss:
And on this show, we believe that meaningful change happens fast, anything is fixable, and solutions are often just one conversation away.

[00:03:30] Frances Frei:
Who do we have today, Anne?

[00:03:32] Anne Morriss:
Today we are speaking with Eliana, which is not her real name. Eliana is at the director level of a nonprofit, and she's having some issues with one of the team leads who reports to her. So let's hear directly from her what's going on.

[00:03:45] Eliana:
Hi, Anne and Frances. This is Eliana. I work in a nonprofit that's focused on social impact in education. The issue that I'm having is that I hired an incredible staff member about one year ago. And I have to say, he delivers phenomenal work. But the challenge I'm seeing is a lot of interpersonal struggles with the team that he manages. So, what I'd like to know is how can I solve some of these interpersonal and communication challenges? How can I coach him to be a stronger leader and manager? And how can I make some of the changes to accommodate the needs of the staff that he manages? Thanks again. And I hope to hear from you soon. Bye.

[00:04:22] Anne Morriss:
Frances, what's your reaction?

[00:04:24] Frances Frei:
I love this challenge. How do we help someone who, to help them help someone, right? So this is like literally the ripple effect.

[00:04:32] Anne Morriss:
Yeah, and I'm really curious, I have to confess, uh, about the true cost of these interpersonal problems. Sometimes that true cost doesn't bubble up to the top, uh, so I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to pulling out some of these variables and seeing where we are.

[BREAK]

[00:04:56] Anne Morriss:
Welcome to Fixable.

[00:04:57] Eliana:
Thank you so much for doing this. I read Unleashed. I heard you guys on some podcast, and I was like, “This is amazing.” That book changed my life, and I bought it for my entire team. So, in some ways I'm like, I hope they're listening to the podcast, but also I hope not because we're going to have this conversation, but they should be. So…

[00:05:16] Anne Morriss:
Eliana, I don't know what it is, but there's something we really like about you already. You have earned a spot on this podcast.

[00:05:27] Eliana:
Thank you so much.

[00:05:29] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. Well, we know from your voicemail that you are dealing with a very talented employee who is struggling with their direct reports. Is that a fair summary?

[00:05:39] Eliana:
That's a fair summary, and I, I will say the situation has evolved slightly—

[00:05:44] Anne Morriss:
Wonderful.

[00:05:44] Eliana:
—and so it's, it's now I would say not just a matter of the direct reports, but there's some really critical kind of table stakes skill sets that I think, I'm unsure if they can be developed, definitely not within the time frame that I need for this role. And so, I'm really in a space where I'm like, I may need to make a leadership change, but, but we'll talk through it and see what we come up with together.

[00:06:10] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. Yeah. Let's get into your role a little bit just to give people some context. So tell us about the job that you're doing for this organization right now.

[00:06:18] Eliana:
Sure. I work for a non profit that essentially focuses on social impact programs for young adults. It's a Jewish nonprofit, and the young adults run programs anywhere from holiday programming to fundraisers giving back in the communities they live. And in my role, I oversee all of our global operations, and it's a team of about 60 plus individuals that I oversee with seven direct reports. And there's just, you know, 10,000 plates spinning at any given moment.

[00:06:58] Anne Morriss:
Got it. It’s a big job.

[00:07:00] Eliana:
It's a big job.

[00:07:02] Anne Morriss:
What do you love about the work you're doing right now?

[00:07:04] Eliana:
I, you know, I had, like so many people, a sort of pandemic revelation. I had this very specific moment where I, you know, I wasn't super happy in my job. I was working in, like, the dream job that I thought I had. I finally had enough money to buy my mom a car and, like, pay off my student loans and do all of these things. I was so unhappy and, like, rail-thin and just super stressed. And so I was like, “I'm going to start, like, looking for something else.” And then someone that I'd worked with for many years, who's the CEO of this organization called and said, “Hey. You know, the co-founder just stepped down and like, you were the first person that came to mind to run this organization with me.”

And I thought, what a gift to be able to work for an organization that I love with a mission that I really love and have the trust of your CEO and a real partner in that work. That's definitely not what I had at my previous organization.

[00:08:00] Anne Morriss:
And Eliana, on your hardest days, uh, this job, what's hard about them?

[00:08:05] Eliana:
You know, I had to really learn how to manage and communicate differently here. I'm typically like a pretty cerebral person in my professional life. I like to keep work and personal life separate. So this is just a much, much different environment. And so everything that I had learned about management, most of it I had to completely throw out the window. People who work in this environment are much more sensitive, I find, and I'm not always that way. Um, and I made a lot of mistakes in management early on.

And one piece of feedback that I got from my CEO that I thought was so bizarre, he’s like, “When you start your meetings, you need to ask people how they are and ask about their personal life.” Which I was like, this is like so uncomfortable for me, but I'm like practicing it and then a couple months later, he's like, “Okay, so you've been doing it, but the team feels like you don't really get it like, you're doing it as a formality and you don't, you're not really interested in how their kids are doing.” And I'm like, well, that's cause I'm like not super interested… but it’s like I've become that way, but like—

[00:09:12] Anne Morriss:
Yeah.

[00:09:12] Eliana:
It really kind of gets me out of my comfort zone. Um…

[00:09:16] Frances Frei:
Oh, yeah, we’re going to, that one is going to be deliciously taken care of in a few moments.

[00:09:21] Eliana:
Oh really?

[00:09:22] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:23] Eliana:
So excited.

[00:09:25] Anne Morriss:
So let's get into the staff member who's having a tough time, and I want to give them a pseudonym just to keep everything clear.

[00:09:35] Eliana:
Um, let’s, let's call my staff member Eric.

[00:09:41] Anne Morriss:
Eric. Great. Okay.

[00:09:41] Eliana:
Yeah.

[00:09:41] Anne Morriss:
So, um, did you hire Eric?

[00:09:44] Eliana:
I hired Eric. Yes.

[00:09:45] Anne Morriss:
And when you first called in you were using pretty great language about the things that Eric was doing well, you know, “phenomenal” and “incredible”. So let's start with the good stuff. What is he delivering for you, producing for you that stands out in this positive column?

[00:10:08] Eliana:
So Eric, I would say the first thing that stands out to me is that Eric is really passionate about the department they lead. So, this is a subject that they are so passionate about and have dedicated their life to. That's fantastic. And the other piece is, as I mentioned before, we’re, we are a global organization that sits in the US. And when I first started this role, something I kept hearing over and over again from my global team was that it's like, we're so US-centric in an organization that's supposed to be global. And I thought it was really powerful to hire someone who is from a different country, speaks multiple languages and has that global perspective. So that was also something that got me really excited. And I still think that it's, it's an asset.

[00:10:59] Frances Frei:
Great.

[00:11:00] Anne Morriss:
So what's not working for them?

[00:11:03] Eliana:
I would say almost every piece of work that gets put out requires oversight, whether that’s just in writing, you know, anything that's going out and sometimes writing internally, because you, you lead, like, a pretty large team and you've got to set an example, um, punctuation, capitalization.

I got called like, “Dude,” a bunch of times before when I first joined here. So I'm like, it's really important that we don't want to be rigid, but there's like an air of professionalism. And again. Table stakes that, that you come with. So everything needs to be edited and just, just looked over. I recognize this is so difficult for someone who speaks a different language, but there's just a lot of follow up around like, “Hey, are we doing this? Are we, are we going to those speaking classes that recommended and I paid for and all of that?”
And I get really, really frequent reports and sometimes phone calls from staff about this person's communication, that they're not clear, that they don't set direction, that they're not open for feedback, that, you know, when someone does muster up the courage to talk to Eric and give constructive feedback, that it's like, "Okay, I hear you,” but nothing has ever followed up on or adjusted.

[00:12:16] Frances Frei:
Right

[00:12:16] Anne Morriss:
And Eliana, is this Eric's first management rodeo? Or are they coming at this with some experience as a manager?

[00:12:23] Eliana:
That's like a prerequisite for any role on my team because people always be managing layers, that they come with significant management experience. So they're coming with management experience, but like really poor.

[00:12:35] Anne Morriss:
Will you give us an example of maybe something you're hearing from the team about what's not working with Eric?

[00:12:44] Eliana:
Yeah, so something I hear a lot is, “I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, what my role is, my job has not been explained to me. I don't know where my work fits into the larger picture of things.” Um, that's something that I hear a lot.

[00:13:03] Anne Morriss:
Got it.

[00:13:03] Eliana:
And it's, you know, this, he’s, it’s an interesting, like, sentiment because, again, I'm coming from places where I'm like, if I was at, you know, said large company and said, “I don't know where I fit in in this giant company,” they'd be like, “Okay, well, then you don’t.” Like… You know like, what I heard before was like, my previous supervisor was like, “If you need me, I don't need you.”

And so, but people need a lot of… they, they just, the needs are just different here and people need a really clear picture of like, this is the mission. This is how you fit into it. They also need to feel bought in and informed and like they're contributing to the process, but also that they don't have any agency or say of like what they're, you know, how, how their work should inform the larger strategy. That comes up over and over and over again.

Again, it's something that I'm like, I wish people didn't need that, but it's like, we have to adapt our leadership and communication style to the needs of the organization. And that is like writ large here. People need the vision.

[00:14:03] Frances Frei:
Got it.

[00:14:03] Anne Morriss:
So how are you thinking about your problem today?

[00:14:07] Eliana:
It's really on my mind. I have a lunch tomorrow. I’m taking Eric out to lunch. So whatever we decide today will be maybe a great conversation for tomorrow. But, um, because I really just need to, to get a real sense of like, where are you at? And like, do you feel like this is going well?

I, I think there's a sense that like, my staff is unhappy. They're struggling. There's disunity on the team. So I, I feel for them in that sense. And that's on my mind a lot because I know what it's like to be in that position. And I'm also thinking about the team that I, I, I have a sense that Eric may have lost the trust of their team in a way that is, um, irreconcilable.

And the longer that I let this sit, because it's been two years since the individual's been on staff, you know, I lose trust with the team and we have, you know, one person at risk in this high level role, but then we've got dozens of individuals who've expressed their unhappiness at risk below. So it's like the whole thing feels, like, very fragile right now.

[00:15:13] Frances Frei:
Right.

[00:15:13] Anne Morriss:
So let me just test a couple of items on our menu, so it sounds like you have to make a significant change. That's clear. Uh, are you open to moving this person into a different kind of role on the team? Or are you at a point where it feels like it's to separate or not separate? That's the decision.

[00:15:36] Eliana:
I'm very open and the way I'm thinking about it is to adjust the role.

[00:15:43] Anne Morriss:
Got it. Frances Frei, summarize for us. Where are we?

[00:15:48] Frances Frei:
I’d be, I’d be delighted to. Um, so it sounds to me like you hired somebody with, you know, with great promise, they fit all of the resume aspects of it, but what we've learned, and I think these are hard to learn in reference checks. Um, but I hear three things. It's the professionalism. It's the management style, I think is another one. And I think growth mindset is a third one. And so to me, those are the three places that it sounds like it's a problem. Um, and when I heard two years, so I was honestly thinking three months or four months. That this has been going on for two years… That's a very long time for an organization to have to endure.

And so when we get to the prescriptions, I think I will perhaps, um, advocate a more accelerated pace of things, um, as a result of that.

[00:16:47] Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:48] Frances Frei:
But does, how does that sound on the summary?

[00:16:49] Eliana:
It's great. I mean, it's not great, but it's a very accurate summary. The piece about growth mindset, that's all resonating very, very strongly. And I had not thought about it in that way. And one, just one other piece to add is like in line with that sort of inability to foster a sense of psychological safety, sort of in line with all of that among the team.

[00:17:15] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:15] Anne Morriss:
The foundation of performance.

[00:17:17] Eliana:
People don't feel comfortable giving feedback or, you know, being honest and open because of that sort of combative nature around, um, these honest and tough conversations.

[00:17:34] Anne Morriss:
So as you can imagine, Frances and I have a ton of ideas about how to solve this problem with Eliana, and we'll be getting into that right after the break.

[BREAK]

[00:17:56] Anne Morriss:
Eliana, let's jump right into this job design question, uh, which I think might be a rich place for us to spend some time. So if, if we were going to design their role so that the management lift is lower and/or completely eliminated so then they become an individual contributor, what would their job look like? Is that a viable path? Where does your mind go with that direction?

[00:18:25] Eliana:
Yeah, Eric is a really talented educator and a really talented facilitator. As far as just like creating, like, an engaging learning experience. That is where they really, really shine. That has very little to do with their current role right now. So…

[00:18:45] Anne Morriss:
But just to point out, it sounds super relevant to the mission of the organization.

[00:18:49] Eliana:
Totally. You know, when we've had new systems that the team has gotten on that they jump in and they're like, “I'm going to train everybody.” And it's like, “Wow, thank you for doing that and, and great.” So that's where I would say they're extremely, extremely skilled and talented and thrive and happy.

[00:19:06] Anne Morriss:
So let me just throw out a straw human to react to. You're showing up at lunch tomorrow. What if you show up and say some variation on “Listen, this isn't working out. I see all of these talents in you that we are not utilizing very well as an organization and let me be super clear: staying in your current role is not an option. I'm gonna offer you a second option: which is for us to get you in a new role that we can design together because we really value you on the team. A third option is we come up with a dignified exit from the organization. But it is not an option for you to stay in your current role with your current duties. And we're going to have an adult to adult conversation about that.”

[00:19:55] Eliana:
Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:57] Frances Frei:
Now our listeners can't see your face. So would you describe—

[00:20:00] Eliana:
Biting my nails just picturing us at this lunch. I haven't seen, uh, Eric in person in, you know, a couple weeks. And so it's like, catch up, let me get right down to the punchline. So, yeah, but it makes me nervous.

[00:20:23] Frances Frei:
Yeah. It, it, the, tell me how you think it's going will sound performative in retrospect when you already had clarity in your mind. Um, uh, so would, would definitely recommend against that, even though it might make you feel better warming up to the conversation. It's, uh, it's probably unfair to Eric, um, to do it that way.

[00:20:47] Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:47] Anne Morriss:
My advocacy would be to try to get your ducks in a row and go have the difficult conversation tomorrow.

[00:20:53] Frances Frei:
Me too.

[00:20:54] Anne Morriss:
If you can't get your ducks in a row, then I would postpone and push it off because the, the, the signaling that you're sending to the other talented people on the team that you are willing to tolerate lack of professionalism, lack of psy-psychological safety, lack of performance, is having a co—I’m gonna use a strong word just to create some tension for you. A culturally corrosive impact.

[00:21:22] Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:22] Anne Morriss:
And that's the price. First of all, we adore you.

[00:21:27] Frances Frei:
Adore you.

[00:21:27] Anne Morriss:
And it's not just because you're a, a loyal reader, but you present as incredibly talented, good at your job, care, like, deeply activated by the mission.

[00:21:38] Frances Frei:
Compassionate to the world. Yeah.

[00:21:39] Anne Morriss:
So you present as incredibly effective in the workplace. And I think some of that empathy is getting in the way of your ability to manage the other people on the team right now—

[00:21:53] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:21:53] Anne Morriss:
Because you have lowered the bar just by definition because you haven't yet taken action for Eric.

[00:21:59] Eliana:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, on one hand, I'm excited to tell my CEO that my empathy index is higher than I'd like to, but I think that that's, that's accurate. Yeah, and the ramifications of lowering the bar here have such a detrimental effect on others, which, yeah.
[00:22:20] Anne Morriss:
Yes. And that's the part of the equation that we often don't properly weigh when we're thinking about these kinds of significant job change or separation decisions. We think about the impact of the person, we think about the impact on us, but the impact on everyone else in the ecosystem is just as material. And often when we weigh those variables correctly, the right decision reveals itself.

[00:21:49] Eliana:
Yeah.

[00:22:49] Frances Frei:
I'd like to add in one thing here, which is when Anne was saying, um, you know, you're, you can't stay in this current job. I would even just have in the top of my mind the way in which I would talk about it. And so it'll be multi-prong, but one of them is how you interact with others in terms of just the norms and professionalism.

Um, but the other one that's much bigger is on the management side. And here's how we know when someone's being great manager: is their team thriving? Like a great way to know if you're a good manager is is the performance of the team high and is the employee satisfaction and safety of the team high, and that's not what's going on.

It's flat or declining. It's not increasing even in the presence of feedback, which brings to the third part is your agility and growth mindset. So I think that even with just that simple language, it's like a dense two paragraphs. I would maybe rehearse that a little bit so that it sounds casual, but comprehensive.

[00:24:00] Anne Morriss:
Frances, I, I love all of that. And I want to put it just a technical caveat on this, to translate the directness of my messaging into the norms of the organization. Get input from HR. Be really thoughtful about the menu of options. It's probably not, you're not coming back to work tomorrow. It's, you know, this is conversation A.

[00:24:24] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:24:24] Anne Morriss:
Conversation B is that we explore a whole new path for you in this organization. So, again, you might say something to Eric like “This is what I'm really excited about, so I want you to really hear me when I say I think you have all of these incredible talents that you have revealed to us indirectly, that I'd love to deploy very directly to advance the important mission of this organization. Here's what I think they are, here's the contours of the role, you know, I, this is what I would like to offer you but I would like to finalize this job together. You and I are going to co produce what this role is, but I've already, you know, talked to our HR team and, you know, we, we see a place for you on this team.”

[00:25:10] Eliana:
You know, this piece of, like, saying, “I want us to co produce this role together” gives me great cover for not having it completely ironed out tomorrow.

[00:25:21] Frances Frei:
Yes. Yes.

[00:25:22] Anne Morriss:
Nice. And also gives them some agency and buy in in the process, which I think will also be important. I, you know, I missed the mark here when I, I hired in terms of that gap between what someone is, and we do that sometimes, but this is a chance to kind of make it right for the department and for that person.

[00:25:44] Frances Frei:
Yes. So there are three options, right? He can stay in the current role, which doesn't seem like a good idea here. We can design a new role together, which could actually be quite exciting. Or, and I think we should take this one seriously, the graceful exit. Putting all three of them in one conversation signals both the comprehension and the seriousness with which this conversation should be received.

[00:26:08] Eliana:
Yeah. I will say when I had my last, uh, performance appraisal with this person, I mean, for both, they were really, really surprised by the rating I gave with examples and with, like, a very clear plan. And so I think that Eric is going to be pretty surprised.

[00:26:27] Frances Frei:
I think the other part there is that despite having, your having presented it to him in the past, he, it's still a surprise today is part of the, like, non permeable issue that we have that, that's like, that's where the growth isn't occurring. Um, uh, because if you don't, if you don't absorb, you can't, you can't pivot.

[00:26:49] Eliana:
Yeah.

[00:26:51] Anne Morriss:
And on that point, just before I forget this, um, I think having some phrases so that Eric doesn't have to necessarily respond immediately.

[00:27:01] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:27:01] Anne Morriss:
Say, “Listen, I'm going to lay this out for you. And then I want to give you 24 hours to think about it. Let's have another conversation before the day ends on Tuesday.” You know, because that also signals like, you're not, this is not bullshit, you know, like, and the, there are lots of nonprofit organizations who are that are not great at this.

[00:27:24] Frances Frei:
Allot 48 hours. Yeah.

[00:27:24] Anne Morriss:
And I think you, you also get to really model for your team this process, this is happening, Eric. So I'm going to give you a chance to absorb this. You don't have to, you don't have to answer right away, but I’m, you know, within 48 hours, let's have another conversation, and then let's figure out together what the right path forward is.

[00:27:42] Eliana:
Okay, I like, I like that.

[00:27:45] Frances Frei:
I'm going to, I want to add one more thing to this, which is you said you had embedded in this that, you know, you wish that the team didn't need what I would call good management, which is to know the mission, the vision, the, the, the clarity of their role clarity. I actually, yes, they should need that.

And that is, like, not too much to ask. That, that is what we would call good management. It's not a weakness in the individuals; that is 100 percent good management hygiene, the sentence that you said really is going to haunt me, but if you need me, I don't need you.

[00:28:25] Eliana:
Oh my god.

[00:28:26] Frances Frei:
Oh my gosh. Like that is, we would put that in as the what great management is not.

[00:28:32] Eliana:
Okay. That's, that's really good to know because I, this is part of where, where I came from and where I cut my teeth managing.

[00:28:41] Frances Frei:
Sounds like where you came from was the myth of the deep end and the myth of the deep end is, “Oh, we just throw people into the deep end around here.” And the reason it's a myth is one, it doesn't work. Two, we don't throw everyone in the deep end. People who are really like us, oh, we go, we paddle out there, we bring up a beverage, we give them a floaty. So we only tend to throw people who are quite different from us. And I don't know how demographically different you were from the person who said, um, “If you need me…” but I, I would put money on the fact that you're demographically different.

[00:29:15] Eliana:
I’m not a, not a Caucasian tech bro. So it was a little different.

[00:29:16] Frances Frei:
I would have a lot of money on that.

[00:29:19] Anne Morriss:
It's a shocking turn in the story.

[00:29:20] Frances Frei:
Yeah. Yeah.

[00:29:24] Eliana:
Yeah.

[00:29:24] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. And I, the m—the mantra I want to give you, Eliana, is I am a leader of the whole team. I'm going to put it in an I statement, but walk in as the leader of the entire team.

[00:29:36] Eliana:
I have to think about all of the individuals. Not just departments who are struggling under this.

[00:29:38] Anne Morriss:
And everyone who's, who is being affected by Eric's behavior.

[00:29:46] Eliana:
Okay cool. I’m nervous, but practice, practice, practice. And this will be better in, in the medium and long run than, than what we have now. What we have now is not, not sustainable, not healthy.

[00:30:02] Anne Morriss:
How are you feeling compared to when we started this conversation?

[00:30:07] Eliana:
Well—

[00:30:08] Frances Frei:
More nauseous.

[00:30:08] Eliana:
I feel. Yeah, definitely. I feel a little nauseous. I feel like I, I need to like get a stress ball or something, but I have a pathway, and I didn't have a pathway before. And sometimes the pathway is scary, and it's going to take, uh, take courage. We have, there's a, there's a saying in, in Jewish tradition. It's like, “Kol ha-olam kulo gesher tsar me’od,” it's like the whole world is a narrow bridge.

And the most important thing is to not be afraid. And so now I can see the bridge. And, you know, sometimes the answer is a little bit scary and I just, but it will be better for, for Eric in the longterm and the team and the organization and the important mission that we serve.

[00:30:49] Anne Morriss:
Awesome. You just gave me chills.

[00:30:52] Eliana:
Aw.

[00:30:52] Frances Frei:
You gave me chills too.

[00:30:53] Eliana:
Thank you.

[00:30:54] Anne Morriss:
Well, it was our privilege to spend time with you. And be helpful.

[00:30:57] Frances Frei:
We’ll be thinking about you tomorrow.

[00:30:58] Anne Morriss:
We’re standing right next to you in spirit.

[00:31:00] Frances Frei:
Yeah.

[00:31:00] Eliana:
Thank you.

[00:31:08] Anne Morriss:
Frances, what do you think? What surprised you about that conversation? What didn't surprise you?

[00:31:15] Frances Frei:
Uh, I… Yeah, I, so the part that surprised me, she has high standards and compassion, which is something that you and I talk a lot about, uh, like the, the magical elixir it is to have both of those. Um, and she fell into a little bit of a trap that we also sometimes see that for an individual, we sometimes insidiously lower the standards, and we think we're doing it out of kindness.

And so I think that she has been doing that. And with the wake up call, which I believe that she just received, it’s, and to the point you are making, it's not kindness to everyone else. It's not even kindness to the person we're doing it for.

[00:31:58] Anne Morriss:
Right.

[00:31:58] Frances Frei:
But it's definitely not kindness to everyone else. So I, I would say that that was the part that was, I guess, most poignant for me.

[00:32:07] Anne Morriss:
Mm-hm. Let’s push on that a little bit because it’s, it's cognitively intuitive, but it's not emotionally intuitive. Why is unkind to lower the bar for someone else?

[00:32:20] Frances Frei:
Oh, uh, because they require you. You make them dependent upon you. Because the only time the bar is really going to be lowered is by you. It's an artificial lowering. And when they're with their own teams or out in your absence, there's not going to be an artificially, um, deflated bar. And so we're not preparing people for our absence. And you know why we really do it? It feels good to us.

[00:32:44] Anne Morriss:
Yeah. Right. And in that moment, with your assistance, I have no chance of reaching my potential.

[00:32:50] Frances Frei:
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:32:51] Anne Morriss:
And that's the price. Which is immeasurable.

[00:33:01] Frances Frei:
Thanks for listening, everybody, and we would love to hear from you. If you want to figure out your workplace problem together, we'll co-produce the solution with you. Please send us a message, email fixable@ted.com, or call 234-FIXABLE. That's 234-349-2253.

[00:33:24] Anne Morriss:
Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective. It's hosted by me, Anne Morris.

[00:33:30] Frances Frei:
And me, Frances Frei.

[00:33:31] Anne Morriss:
Our team includes Isabel Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Lidia Jean Kott, Grace Rubenstein, Sarah Nics, Michelle Quint, Corey Hajim, Alejandra Salazar, Banban Cheng, and Roxanne Hai-Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at StoryYard.

[00:33:48] Frances Frei:
If you're enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And tell a friend to check us out.

[00:33:53] Anne Morriss:
And one more thing, if you can, please take a second to leave us a review. It really helps us make a great show.

[00:34:01] Frances Frei:
And it totally helps the search algorithm.