May 30 2011: Abid
In the Quran wearing a veil, as far as i know is not a face covering veil. If it covers the hair and shoulders and cleavage is that a bad thing, as long as men wear something to cover their hair also, and if their standard dress is loose fitted and prevents people from seeing the shape of their privates?
That should be clear enough, and i was also asking you if in the Quran it says to the believing man to lower their gaze and guard their modesty.
May 30 2011: Abid
does it also "say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do?" And does the Quran say veil or head covering because the veil can be defined as a "headdress that frames the face and falls over the shoulders." Or "A length of cloth worn by women over the head, shoulders, and often the face." "Often over the face" is not the word of Muhammed who told a girl not to cover her face. If a veil is then used to hide cleavage, but still covers hair then is that really a bad thing, when pious muslim men also wear something covering their hair and wear long loose fitted clothing? I'd also like to ask you the question of what it is that is valuable to our culture with regards to the right to flaunt ones chest or a mans private parts? Is a culture where both men and women cover their hair for a reason significant to them, and where both genders are have equal expectations to dress modestly a bad culture?
I recommend that you watch Hangover Part 2 btw and look at the money it's brought in and listen to the crowd laugh.
May 1 2011: Winston
I can't believe you just said Jews could recover because of their high IQ and compared them to the Aborigines. a lot of Jews were already living in Germany or around Germany since like basically 500 ad meaning the would have assimilated, to some degree, into the Germanic culture of the time. Being an immigrant is not having your land taken and your culture senselessly destroyed.
As the nazis started gaining momentum Jews were not supposed to do common labour, so as not to take work away from the average "proper" German, resulting in more jewish Doctors and teachers. I can imagine tht would have an effect on certain cognitive functions.
Apr 29 2011: I think the question is more along the lines of whether we will progress. aside from medical issues dealing with things such as diabetes, do we really get satisfaction from a lack of challenge, such as would be the case in a world where we are artificially stronger of faster. Who looks good if everyone is beautiful, and is it known whether altercation of our genes can improve our ability to think abstractly. I would assume abstract thinking is kinda important when it comes to creativity and intelligence, or at least the sort of intelligence that moves society forward. If it cannot improve our ability to think abstractly then does it move society forward by enhancing trivial things, for lack of a better word. Also, if the mentioned procedure became a common thing for some societies what gap is created both with the lower income classes or societies in which poverty is prevalent, when prevalence of poverty is not related to valued human characteristics.
Does this idea progress us towards a new aristocracy?
Apr 7 2011: "We live in a society where everyone wants to have it all their way or no way" and is that why we, well your country, constantly make our/your courageous men and woman "...deal with (things that) would make most people fall apart" and put them in situations where "they have to be trained to be able to withstand some of the harshest and horrific situations"?
Feb 13 2011: Keith W
I should thank you for suggesting I look into Bibi Aisha's story, as tragic as it is. On wikipedia, which you suggested, a link was provided that gave a little info on "baad." Baad is traditionally an afghan method of resolving a dispute. Wikipedia says it has no legal or religious basis. I'm wondering what baad, like a blood-price, has to do with arranged marriages.
John
Thank you, but before being too easily persuaded im must, as i have been asked, ask that you provide statistical support for the claim the as countries develope, the practise of arranged matrimony fades in countries that traditionally practise arranged marriage. I was pretty heavily critisised for not providing my support for my claim that arranged marriage in a proper setting leads to higher levels of happiness, which is, i suppose, to be expected. I no a man from Ethiopa btw who had an arranged marriage, and he and his wife are very happy, they are christian, and they are "modern" ppl. That is not meant to support my argument but arranged marriage for them has not been a thing of dominance and slavery.
Feb 11 2011: A specific source has proved to be hard to find on the internet. What i got from the unfound source though was tht, i repeat, couples happiness in proper settings, rise throughout the years during the time that love marriages tend to plummet as infatuation wears off and the ppl realise who they are living with have flaws, and that infatuation is no longer an effective white out.
Another thing i suppose i must repeat: The participants of arranged marriages determine whether or not abuse will happen and abuse, to large or small degree, is in arranged marriages, less than half by a fair amount.
Explain the logic behind how the Western world outlaws certain things makes it barbaric just cause. An arranged marriage in itself is not barbaric, and can be used in a positive way. I wouldn't say that because 53% of people, some having major issues like adultery, or domestic violence too, or simply falling out of "love, that love marriages are bad because certain experiences happen within them. Please to support your claims of how arranged marriage is basically meant for a man to abuse his wife provide stats on domestic violence in LM's and AM's. Also, pls provide the setting which relates to your statistics. Bibi Aisha's experience doesn't mean arranged marriages in the modern world cannot be practised by modern ppl.
As to the sperm business,something to add: i have not graduated from high school due to age, and biology is not an area i have studied at all. If the only thing stopping sperm is them failing in the race with other sperm at an opportune time then a particular sperm succeeding is still a given. As a given it is not related to fine tuning.
Feb 11 2011: Keith W
BTW i told you my stance is that arranged marriages are not necessary but not barbaric.
Anthropic principle: makes me laugh. We are here, we got here somehow, and sure as heck 1 sperm on its own didnt overcome 100M things trying to stop it. If such facts are the sort you seek refuge in then clearly your theories are founded in the sort of free thinking atheists are often so proud of. free thought based in science, "logic and reason." No tradition or dogma here. It should also be noted that the sperm would need to overcome 100M obstacles a number of times.
Feb 11 2011: Keith W
I cannot find my best support so i used the divorce rate instead. sorry.
"don't you think culture might play a role?"
Don't you? Why do you say how barbaric arranged marriages are without considering the culture in which they are performed. The divorce rates are important, because in American culture, do you think 53% of people are happy when getting divorced with divorce being very high up on the list of causes of stress and not just of the acute kind. Have you been a victim of divorce or any people you know. Also, I'd like you to provide some stats on physical and emotional adultery in love relationships and marriages if you could. What's important is that depending on the culture, or the ppl involved in arranged marriages, an arranged marriage can be a respectable method as commitment is placed at a higher level than infatuation. In the right setting, why is it tht arranged marriages have such a low divorce rate while in America, love only is able to keep about 47% of ppl together. I thought love was a fundemental principle in Love marriages, so why is it that such beautiful, committed, love isn't keeping the divorce rate lower?
Feb 9 2011: In America love marriages have about a 53% divorce rate. Arranged marriages i believe globally have a 5-7% divorce rate. Yes, id be stupid to deny tht the consequences of divorce can be carried out to new extremes in some regions where the practice is kept, but there is also a weight in the good arranged marriage environments, "forcing" the couple to love each other with time. The talk of any extreme punishment for divorce must be specified as to which culture and region provides such a setting for an arranged marriage. I do not have a source but i have heard/read, if you will allow me to go on, tht arranged marriage couples report having higher levels of happiness shooting upwards, around the period, or later, than when faulty love marriages begin to plummet after a few years. You mention abuse alot, now ill ask you for some statistics. How high is the abuse rate in love relationships and marriages, and how high is it in arranged ones?
Feb 9 2011: In America love marriages have about a 53% divorce rate. Arranged marriages i believe globally have a 5-7% divorce rate. Yes, id be stupid to deny tht the consequences of divorce can be carried out to new extremes in some regions where the practice is kept, but there is also a weight in the good arranged marriage environments, "forcing" the couple to love each other with time. The talk of any extreme punishment for divorce must be specified as to which culture and region provides such a setting for an arranged marriage. I do not have a source but i have heard/read, if you will allow me to go on, tht arranged marriage couples report having higher levels of happiness shooting upwards, around the period, or later, than when faulty love marriages begin to plummet after a few years. You mention abuse alot, now ill ask you for some statistics. How high is the abuse rate in love relationships and marriages, and how high is it in arranged ones?
Feb 8 2011: Keith W
part 1: rape doesn't lead to happiness does it? Why do arranged marriages, which are 2 sided, according to stats tend to lead to higher levels of happiness?
part 2: If you want to relate things to breeding sheep, then the situation would be of sheep being bred under circumstances which tended to make them happier than sheep being bred through western techniques. I would not appreciate an arranged marriage for myself, but that's not to say those who practise it are "barbaric."
part 3: back to the sperm business, why do you use our chance of conception with the chance of the universe happening, when there is a possibility for 100M particular babies. Meanwhile only 1 particular life supporting universe could happen under the circumstances present during the time of origin? It would be more accurate to say the universe and it's chances likely happened because we belonged to a man with a sperm count of 1 and 100M things to stop tht sperm were overcome.
Feb 8 2011: Keith W
What could be considered a utilitarian measure?
I'll try rephrasing. If stats are trustworthy, and you relate rape to arranged marriages as you have been doing, then why does happiness seem more present under such circumstances?
Parenting: sometimes religion is categorised as bad parenting.
No rules, no discipline is something you are definately not in favour of, as you need to provide the best environment for the kid to excel or attain something. On the topic of marriage then, is it not a respectable thing to do to put a son/daughter into a situation where he/she is pre-disposed to attain happiness? (if the stats can be trusted)
Feb 8 2011: Richard
No, i was saying what is uninquisitive is saying that God is used as a statement with no explanation. Such generalising is done without even looking to see if someone elses proper perspective on God and creation is compatible with what is known. and to call God: "of the gaps" is to say that there are no gaps in firm Atheist assumptions which ignore science to the same degree that dogmatic theist folk do. Exemplified in the situation of a person saying we have evolution to explain our existence, without realising that what we know makes it clear that evolution and what it entails isn't such a firm foothold the atheist theory. We are here and we got here somehow is said by all uninquisitive ppl not simply theists.
Regarding the last paragraph, the Quran said what? And who tried to use that as evidence during the time to indicate scientific backing in the Quran? Does the Quran say heres some science.. or does it say this is where humans come from, with my potential interpretatio
Feb 7 2011: Keith W
In a relationship of which i was the one physically inclined to receiving then i would be quite happy to be in a relationship were intercourse was an encouraged thing. in an arranged marriage, if the stats can be trusted, then clearly ur rape scenario is a good thing because its part of the formula which tends to lead to higher levels of happiness. So either the ppl partaking in such a relationship are not being raped, or are enjoying being raped. Such sexual fulfillment and joy is even extended to the less than attractive body types which may have within them a tremendous heart. Is it barbaric to give them that?
Also, what is the purpose of free will and choice? I believe in free will and choice but if the purpose is to have a chance at being what one could be, then from my perspective, a permissive "parenting" style is not a means to such an end, though nor is the authoritarian style.
Feb 6 2011: Keith W
The sperm argument is irrelevant cause someone needed to come forth, though the universe didn't. A scientist wouldn't say 100,000,000 universes could've happened. Wht would be said is there's like a one millionth percent chance in the universe and something like a one millionth less than a hundred percent chance that a life supporting universe would not happen. Why would you use that example to support atheism? surely there are more legitimate and scientific facts out there in the so obviously godless world.
i no im saying through repitition a baby is bound to come out unless the man is sterile. Yes, the particular baby was a chance, but A baby was not. Comparing the chance of the universe with the chance of a particular baby is not the same situation.
It is not enough to say that something that is highly improbable would happen because a given happened.
Feb 6 2011: Keith W
Why do you bring in the "barbaric" gender aspect of things when you speak of arranged marriages, such as how a young girl wants no part in being forced to marry? Meanwhile, there is also a young man who has no choice in the marriage. If it's about "rape a year" then do you think the guy would be happy to be forced into raping shrek? Also, if love leads to happiness then why do arranged marriages, according to stats, lead to higher levels of happiness? Is discipline in that regard making the world a better place somehow? If not arranged marriages, then atleast a high regard for the constitution of marriage preached by the abrahamic religions?
Feb 6 2011: The topic should not be science and religion it should be atheism, agnosticism, or theism. Also, if a scientific approach is taken to religion then why do atheist often take the unscientific route of asking broad questions while giving zero effort to find any answer. Like we have evolution to explain our existence instead of looking to see how it's compatible with God or even how evolution requires impossible instances that are categorised simply under "nature" did it. We are here, and we got here somehow, therefore no other explanation needed.
On the bit about men's reproduction system, if someone were cut open between the ribs to the back bone what organs would be found? Chiefly the lungs and the heart would be found. Lungs could be ignored but they could be tied in by saying tht the breath of life comes from the love/nourishment pounding out from the chest of the properly faithful. So good ppl come from the heart, then out the loins
Jan 18 2011: John
I have made no claim that religion causes free thinking, but Richard had it in his mind that religion discourages free thinking. that's not true. Another thing is that even though their free thinking was not necessarily acquired due to their rligious upbringing, it seems to have brought them closer to God somehow. How could that be?
please explain how religion discourages free thinking with ur support being that no religious person found a solution to the Black Death. also, with that support pls use scripture which might've discouraged someone from finding a solution to the Black Death.
John how did i imply that? if gallileo kept his faith or had his faith strengthened why would that have anything to do with ppl turning away from christianity. the church wnated to surpress his findings because it allows for interpretations other than their own. if they kept the bible to themself and all of a sudden someone says theyre wrong then tht would cause a power struggle.
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A reply on Talk: Mustafa Akyol: Faith versus tradition in Islam
In the Quran wearing a veil, as far as i know is not a face covering veil. If it covers the hair and shoulders and cleavage is that a bad thing, as long as men wear something to cover their hair also, and if their standard dress is loose fitted and prevents people from seeing the shape of their privates?
That should be clear enough, and i was also asking you if in the Quran it says to the believing man to lower their gaze and guard their modesty.
A reply on Talk: Mustafa Akyol: Faith versus tradition in Islam
does it also "say to the believing man that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do?" And does the Quran say veil or head covering because the veil can be defined as a "headdress that frames the face and falls over the shoulders." Or "A length of cloth worn by women over the head, shoulders, and often the face." "Often over the face" is not the word of Muhammed who told a girl not to cover her face. If a veil is then used to hide cleavage, but still covers hair then is that really a bad thing, when pious muslim men also wear something covering their hair and wear long loose fitted clothing? I'd also like to ask you the question of what it is that is valuable to our culture with regards to the right to flaunt ones chest or a mans private parts? Is a culture where both men and women cover their hair for a reason significant to them, and where both genders are have equal expectations to dress modestly a bad culture?
I recommend that you watch Hangover Part 2 btw and look at the money it's brought in and listen to the crowd laugh.
A reply on Talk: Harvey Fineberg: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
I can't believe you just said Jews could recover because of their high IQ and compared them to the Aborigines. a lot of Jews were already living in Germany or around Germany since like basically 500 ad meaning the would have assimilated, to some degree, into the Germanic culture of the time. Being an immigrant is not having your land taken and your culture senselessly destroyed.
As the nazis started gaining momentum Jews were not supposed to do common labour, so as not to take work away from the average "proper" German, resulting in more jewish Doctors and teachers. I can imagine tht would have an effect on certain cognitive functions.
A reply on Talk: Harvey Fineberg: Are we ready for neo-evolution?
Does this idea progress us towards a new aristocracy?
A reply on Talk: Stanley McChrystal: Listen, learn ... then lead
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
I should thank you for suggesting I look into Bibi Aisha's story, as tragic as it is. On wikipedia, which you suggested, a link was provided that gave a little info on "baad." Baad is traditionally an afghan method of resolving a dispute. Wikipedia says it has no legal or religious basis. I'm wondering what baad, like a blood-price, has to do with arranged marriages.
John
Thank you, but before being too easily persuaded im must, as i have been asked, ask that you provide statistical support for the claim the as countries develope, the practise of arranged matrimony fades in countries that traditionally practise arranged marriage. I was pretty heavily critisised for not providing my support for my claim that arranged marriage in a proper setting leads to higher levels of happiness, which is, i suppose, to be expected. I no a man from Ethiopa btw who had an arranged marriage, and he and his wife are very happy, they are christian, and they are "modern" ppl. That is not meant to support my argument but arranged marriage for them has not been a thing of dominance and slavery.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
Another thing i suppose i must repeat: The participants of arranged marriages determine whether or not abuse will happen and abuse, to large or small degree, is in arranged marriages, less than half by a fair amount.
Explain the logic behind how the Western world outlaws certain things makes it barbaric just cause. An arranged marriage in itself is not barbaric, and can be used in a positive way. I wouldn't say that because 53% of people, some having major issues like adultery, or domestic violence too, or simply falling out of "love, that love marriages are bad because certain experiences happen within them. Please to support your claims of how arranged marriage is basically meant for a man to abuse his wife provide stats on domestic violence in LM's and AM's. Also, pls provide the setting which relates to your statistics. Bibi Aisha's experience doesn't mean arranged marriages in the modern world cannot be practised by modern ppl.
As to the sperm business,something to add: i have not graduated from high school due to age, and biology is not an area i have studied at all. If the only thing stopping sperm is them failing in the race with other sperm at an opportune time then a particular sperm succeeding is still a given. As a given it is not related to fine tuning.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
BTW i told you my stance is that arranged marriages are not necessary but not barbaric.
Anthropic principle: makes me laugh. We are here, we got here somehow, and sure as heck 1 sperm on its own didnt overcome 100M things trying to stop it. If such facts are the sort you seek refuge in then clearly your theories are founded in the sort of free thinking atheists are often so proud of. free thought based in science, "logic and reason." No tradition or dogma here. It should also be noted that the sperm would need to overcome 100M obstacles a number of times.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
I cannot find my best support so i used the divorce rate instead. sorry.
"don't you think culture might play a role?"
Don't you? Why do you say how barbaric arranged marriages are without considering the culture in which they are performed. The divorce rates are important, because in American culture, do you think 53% of people are happy when getting divorced with divorce being very high up on the list of causes of stress and not just of the acute kind. Have you been a victim of divorce or any people you know. Also, I'd like you to provide some stats on physical and emotional adultery in love relationships and marriages if you could. What's important is that depending on the culture, or the ppl involved in arranged marriages, an arranged marriage can be a respectable method as commitment is placed at a higher level than infatuation. In the right setting, why is it tht arranged marriages have such a low divorce rate while in America, love only is able to keep about 47% of ppl together. I thought love was a fundemental principle in Love marriages, so why is it that such beautiful, committed, love isn't keeping the divorce rate lower?
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
part2 on its way
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
part2 on its way
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
part 1: rape doesn't lead to happiness does it? Why do arranged marriages, which are 2 sided, according to stats tend to lead to higher levels of happiness?
part 2: If you want to relate things to breeding sheep, then the situation would be of sheep being bred under circumstances which tended to make them happier than sheep being bred through western techniques. I would not appreciate an arranged marriage for myself, but that's not to say those who practise it are "barbaric."
part 3: back to the sperm business, why do you use our chance of conception with the chance of the universe happening, when there is a possibility for 100M particular babies. Meanwhile only 1 particular life supporting universe could happen under the circumstances present during the time of origin? It would be more accurate to say the universe and it's chances likely happened because we belonged to a man with a sperm count of 1 and 100M things to stop tht sperm were overcome.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
What could be considered a utilitarian measure?
I'll try rephrasing. If stats are trustworthy, and you relate rape to arranged marriages as you have been doing, then why does happiness seem more present under such circumstances?
Parenting: sometimes religion is categorised as bad parenting.
No rules, no discipline is something you are definately not in favour of, as you need to provide the best environment for the kid to excel or attain something. On the topic of marriage then, is it not a respectable thing to do to put a son/daughter into a situation where he/she is pre-disposed to attain happiness? (if the stats can be trusted)
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
No, i was saying what is uninquisitive is saying that God is used as a statement with no explanation. Such generalising is done without even looking to see if someone elses proper perspective on God and creation is compatible with what is known. and to call God: "of the gaps" is to say that there are no gaps in firm Atheist assumptions which ignore science to the same degree that dogmatic theist folk do. Exemplified in the situation of a person saying we have evolution to explain our existence, without realising that what we know makes it clear that evolution and what it entails isn't such a firm foothold the atheist theory. We are here and we got here somehow is said by all uninquisitive ppl not simply theists.
Regarding the last paragraph, the Quran said what? And who tried to use that as evidence during the time to indicate scientific backing in the Quran? Does the Quran say heres some science.. or does it say this is where humans come from, with my potential interpretatio
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
In a relationship of which i was the one physically inclined to receiving then i would be quite happy to be in a relationship were intercourse was an encouraged thing. in an arranged marriage, if the stats can be trusted, then clearly ur rape scenario is a good thing because its part of the formula which tends to lead to higher levels of happiness. So either the ppl partaking in such a relationship are not being raped, or are enjoying being raped. Such sexual fulfillment and joy is even extended to the less than attractive body types which may have within them a tremendous heart. Is it barbaric to give them that?
Also, what is the purpose of free will and choice? I believe in free will and choice but if the purpose is to have a chance at being what one could be, then from my perspective, a permissive "parenting" style is not a means to such an end, though nor is the authoritarian style.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
The sperm argument is irrelevant cause someone needed to come forth, though the universe didn't. A scientist wouldn't say 100,000,000 universes could've happened. Wht would be said is there's like a one millionth percent chance in the universe and something like a one millionth less than a hundred percent chance that a life supporting universe would not happen. Why would you use that example to support atheism? surely there are more legitimate and scientific facts out there in the so obviously godless world.
i no im saying through repitition a baby is bound to come out unless the man is sterile. Yes, the particular baby was a chance, but A baby was not. Comparing the chance of the universe with the chance of a particular baby is not the same situation.
It is not enough to say that something that is highly improbable would happen because a given happened.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
theologically speaking you can only see his back through hindsight after being set high upon a rock.
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
Why do you bring in the "barbaric" gender aspect of things when you speak of arranged marriages, such as how a young girl wants no part in being forced to marry? Meanwhile, there is also a young man who has no choice in the marriage. If it's about "rape a year" then do you think the guy would be happy to be forced into raping shrek? Also, if love leads to happiness then why do arranged marriages, according to stats, lead to higher levels of happiness? Is discipline in that regard making the world a better place somehow? If not arranged marriages, then atleast a high regard for the constitution of marriage preached by the abrahamic religions?
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
On the bit about men's reproduction system, if someone were cut open between the ribs to the back bone what organs would be found? Chiefly the lungs and the heart would be found. Lungs could be ignored but they could be tied in by saying tht the breath of life comes from the love/nourishment pounding out from the chest of the properly faithful. So good ppl come from the heart, then out the loins
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
I have made no claim that religion causes free thinking, but Richard had it in his mind that religion discourages free thinking. that's not true. Another thing is that even though their free thinking was not necessarily acquired due to their rligious upbringing, it seems to have brought them closer to God somehow. How could that be?
please explain how religion discourages free thinking with ur support being that no religious person found a solution to the Black Death. also, with that support pls use scripture which might've discouraged someone from finding a solution to the Black Death.
John how did i imply that? if gallileo kept his faith or had his faith strengthened why would that have anything to do with ppl turning away from christianity. the church wnated to surpress his findings because it allows for interpretations other than their own. if they kept the bible to themself and all of a sudden someone says theyre wrong then tht would cause a power struggle.
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