Amir -

Schenectady, NY, United States

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Amir -
Posted about 4 years ago
is Koran scientifically a miracle?
Alright. I am afraid I am not able to participate further in the discussion. Just to reiterate some of the points: You think Baha'i faith is a man-made faith. Hence it is not holy. I think Islam is also man made and its not holy and this was the point of the whole discussion. Now you are taking the divinity of Islam as a premise in your argument about Baha'i faith which I believe indicates you have to reconsider your logic. I don't want to force you to accept that there are no seven skies and the home of a spider is called a web. You can decide on accepting those. I have to say I agree with Richard that this discussion is unfortunately not progressing and if you still think you are not a single bit wrong, go ahead and stick to your belief. Such scientific errors IMO in Quran and many other similar inconsistencies in the rest of Islam such as in hadith and its laws (which I don't want to discuss here as you are not even convinced on the Quran case) made me perceive it to be a man made religion, similar to what you perceive Baha'i and perhaps many other faiths to be. The bottom line is that based on your quote, "Does Baha'i faith has any holy book from itself like Koran? Or it is only results of scientists?" Science is not as important to you as "vahy" (message from the omniscient God) and I think that is the difference between your world view and that of mine and perhaps Richard's.
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Amir -
Posted about 4 years ago
is Koran scientifically a miracle?
Also I remembered that in one of the initial verses of the "Ankabout" sourah, Quran states that the spider web is weak and then uses that example to make some point. I wanted to add that spider web is one of the strongest fibers. Its tensile strength is comparable to that of steel. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_silk#Artificially_produced_spider_silk I am not telling that Quran is a nonsense but it's definitely not out of this world. You can argue that this book was trying to be accessible to all kinds of people with different level of knowledge and that is why it is so vague. You might also argue that even though some of Quran verses are currently refuted through scientific reasoning, since science is always advancing, it will eventually approve of Quran when science advances enough. In the first case I have to say that it is better to drop the "out of this world" claim when it is unsatisfiable. In the second case, I have to say that this means regardless of what actually happens in nature and what science says, you think that ancient book is telling all the truths. So if that is the case, there is no need for science to approve of Quran since it won't matter. Finally you can revert back to the argument that you have had moments of redemption or Quran has actually brought miracles in your personal life which I call superstition.
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Amir -
Posted about 4 years ago
is Koran scientifically a miracle?
Alright. So I googled Quran miracles and I found a couple of stuff: in 50:38 it apparently says "we created the skies and the earth in six stages with out much difficulty" comments: Well thinking of multiple skies and a single earth is quite ancient and obsolete. Creation in six stages is obsolete and has no ground. You can try to bring every physical equation possible and try all their products or division to get close to such a number which is what most people do to show the legitimacy of such random numbers. Anbia':32 This one describes the sky as a protective ceiling which is a wrong idea. You try to reason that this is the atmosphere. But I have to say that sometime sky is taken to be the universe, and sometime the atmosphere. If the body around the earth was a solid shield, then you would claim that Quran is true, if it was some sort of liquid, you would claim so again, now it is just a gas which does not protect us from every asteroid and you still claim its truth, if there was nothing up there you would say that it is referring to the edge of observable universe and so forth. So you are basically taking almost all the possibilities as the proof. The same story is true for the rest of the so called miracles such as the ones you talked about asexual reproduction which exists and is a single counter example. The statements in Quran are generally vague and based on ancient interpretations. It is not out of this world unless every single statement was clear in terms of interpretation and was scientifically true. It's interesting that even some verses contradict others and are called "Nasekh". By the way, I would like to show how other people use your kind of logic to prove quantum mechanics from Baha's scripts in Baha'i faith. The methodology is quite the same as what muslims do. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_and_science and see if their reasoning is different from yours
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Amir -
Posted about 4 years ago
is Koran scientifically a miracle?
I found the title interesting and read through first posts. Then skipped to the end as the conversation was almost stuck. Even though I was born muslim and had to read a whole lot of religious materials through out school some of which S R Ahmadi is talking about, my current stance is an atheist. I am not planning to engage fully in this conversation as I have already had such conversations before. My points: S R Ahmadi, you are claiming quite a huge claim that Quran is out of this world. At the same time you should understand that even if you proved almost all of its miracles are true (which I doubt), a single counterexample would still refute its huge claim. Otherwise you can find materials such as Newton's books on classical motion formulation, Galileo's work, , I dunno perhaps some Chinese books all contain a great deal of facts which were far ahead of their time and you can convert to their religion instead :). You'd better be critical of your ideas instead of preaching them here. Maybe you're worried about losing your belief. If you don't care about any scientific fact, then there would be no ground to argue on. I just don't want to get into the business of examples and I googled Quran miracles and found the following page which is apparently a group of people refuting its miracles or at least trying to do so. You can go ahead and read their reasoning http://councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.0