Thank you for your kind offer to send me accredited Islamic material. I have read a complete copy of a credible translation of the Qur'an and I have followed many links provided from thoughtful people like yourself on this site, to help provide myself with a better and more enlightened position. I have learned a lot and have found some good instruction in the Islamic scripture just as I have found in many other scriptures.
It might help it you could at least point me to a copy of all Hadith considered authentic as I am not sure what part of Tabari, Ishaq, Muslim or Bukhari that I should take seriously.
I do not mean to dis-respect the prophet Muhammad, and especially not your understanding of the goodness of a spiritual position based on Islam. I'm sure you get a lot of comfort from these teachings and hopefully they help you be a good person.
For me, Islam doesn't make sense in the context of an all knowing God who has created everything.
Why is it okay for the Muslims of Muhammad's day to kill, steal, lie and rape?
Rape is used in war as a tool to terrorize people. How does this become pious behavior when Muhammad indulges? As he did so many times according to his biography.
Under what circumstance is rape justified?
To me, rape is not a good activity and I can't see how God would accept this as moral behavior.
Why are you lying about this? Is this what you have been taught?
You say, "Blood was not shed when Muslims entered Mecca and all those that sought to kill muslims were ALL forgiven and given amnesty."
Some Facts:
Muslim: B19N4395 "I said: 'Should I tell you a Hadith from your Traditions.' He gave an account of the Conquest of Mecca, saying: 'Muhammad (mpbuh) advanced until he reached Mecca. He assigned Zubayr to his right flank and Khalid to his left. Then he dispatched Ubaida with the force that had no armor. They advanced to the interior. The Prophet (mpbuh) was in the midst of a large contingent of his fighters. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 'You see the ruffians and the lowly followers of the Quraysh.' He indicated by striking one of his hands over the other that they should be killed. So we went off on his orders and if anyone wanted a person killed; he was slain. No one could offer any resistance. Then Abu Sufyan said: Messenger, the blood of the Quraysh has become very cheap. The Prophet said: 'Kill all who stand in your way.'"
Tabari VIII:176 "'Fight only those who fight you.' When Khalid came upon them in the lower part of Mecca, he fought them, and Allah put them to the fight. Zubayr encountered a squadron of Quraysh on the slopes of Kada and killed them." Yes, "killed them." So... "When the Prophet arrived, the people stood before him to swear allegiance to him, and so the Meccans became Muslims."
Tabari VIII:178/Ishaq:550 "Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka'aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa'd. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur'an Revelations. Then he apostatized, reverted to being a polytheist, and returned to Mecca."
Tabari VIII:181 "According to Waqidi the Messenger ordered that six men and four women should be assassinated..."
Jul 23 2011: SR -
you say, "What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today. " Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. He claimed to be the son of God and therefore God, bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified. He said a bunch of interesting things while he was here. Ever read them? Don't bother trying to get it from Islamic sources, they will be prejudiced, they know nothing about Jesus.
Me: "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
You: "Prove one." Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning.
You keep accusing me of being influenced by propaganda. You too are influenced by propaganda. Everyone is. We look for truth but must first find our way out of our influences and education. Is there other ways of looking at it? I think so. It's too bad we have a different view of God but this in not a requirement of our friendship as far as I'm concerned. So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste.
Jul 23 2011: SR - Me: "Most Christians believe, I think, that God dwells inside us"
You: "Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)" Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?
Me: "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
You: "Yes but God is not material. http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm " Agreed. Nice link BTW, beautifully said except the propensity of Allah to claim that he put rocks/mountains on the earth to stabilize it seems out of place.
Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. What is good? That which benefits everything and everyone.
I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us. It makes sense that God would love us despite out faults, and that it is not conditional on our loving him. God does not need our love, it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation.
You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his.
you say, "Why God should be responsible to Love? " Well as above, it is our only hope of salvation. Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems. Is God's hatred or indifference going to bring about our salvation? Likewise solve our problems with hatred or indifference?
Me; "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
You: "Disagree.
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews " Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me.
you: "You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war." Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar.
Jul 23 2011: SR - Me:"You will not find any of Muhammad's supposed quotes in the Bible."
You: "1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example."
I've read both and neither Muhammad nor Allah quote anything that you can look up in the Bible.
Let me re-phrase that. You will not find Allah's quotes of Biblical characters in the Bible. What's more, the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible.
You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. the Qur'anic tale is completely unproven. It's out on a limb and counter to all known human history. With this at stake and a ridiculous lack evidence, you simply must admit that it is possible that the Qur'an is wrong. If so, you know how the dominoes fall.
A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found.
Jul 23 2011: SR-
you say, " Allah only cheat who cheat Allah". That statement is the crux of non spiritual thinking. Why would God have to cheat anyone? I mean ANYONE. Isn't he God? How can he be cheated? He knows everything. If you fail in your heart it is only man who cheats himself. God is being cheated so he cheats back!? Someone who is trying to control other people might try to out cheat them, but this should be well below a spiritual know er of truth like God. Why would God stoop to play petty cheating games with man?
I think God is the inner most purest energy, thought, expression possible. That which draws us toward doing good for the sake of connecting to this positive energy. Not that which tries to frighten us away from doing bad. But even if it is both, I cannot see how it is possible for God to cheat us nor why he would want to, or find it necessary to.
This might be a reasonable sentiment for a cunning human wanting to outsmart his adversaries, but a God who stoops this low, would be a weakling.
Jul 22 2011: Again, the Allah depicted in the Qur'an is an unabashed megalomaniac tyrant who forces his will on people. People who choose poorly need forgiveness and guidance but “Allah does not guide the wrongdoers.”
Who among us has never done any wrong?
Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.
Why?
Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?
Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.
Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.
This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.
Jul 22 2011: Hi Jim, I ask the same questions, especially the first two. I'm glad you have decided to comment here, you have an open mind and I'm sure your quest for spiritual understanding will enrich your life as you look into various teachings and see how they square with your mind and heart. Your thoughts have helped me, and I appreciate that. I would like to respond to SR on a couple more threads but I may not have time. For now I would like to close with a few questions which I struggle to reconcile with my heart and mind.
The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.
Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
How is this morally possible?
How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.
It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.
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A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
Thank you for your kind offer to send me accredited Islamic material. I have read a complete copy of a credible translation of the Qur'an and I have followed many links provided from thoughtful people like yourself on this site, to help provide myself with a better and more enlightened position. I have learned a lot and have found some good instruction in the Islamic scripture just as I have found in many other scriptures.
It might help it you could at least point me to a copy of all Hadith considered authentic as I am not sure what part of Tabari, Ishaq, Muslim or Bukhari that I should take seriously.
I do not mean to dis-respect the prophet Muhammad, and especially not your understanding of the goodness of a spiritual position based on Islam. I'm sure you get a lot of comfort from these teachings and hopefully they help you be a good person.
For me, Islam doesn't make sense in the context of an all knowing God who has created everything.
Why is it okay for the Muslims of Muhammad's day to kill, steal, lie and rape?
Rape is used in war as a tool to terrorize people. How does this become pious behavior when Muhammad indulges? As he did so many times according to his biography.
Under what circumstance is rape justified?
To me, rape is not a good activity and I can't see how God would accept this as moral behavior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up3yuQDAWKQ
A reply on Talk: Lesley Hazleton: On reading the Koran
Why are you lying about this? Is this what you have been taught?
You say, "Blood was not shed when Muslims entered Mecca and all those that sought to kill muslims were ALL forgiven and given amnesty."
Some Facts:
Muslim: B19N4395 "I said: 'Should I tell you a Hadith from your Traditions.' He gave an account of the Conquest of Mecca, saying: 'Muhammad (mpbuh) advanced until he reached Mecca. He assigned Zubayr to his right flank and Khalid to his left. Then he dispatched Ubaida with the force that had no armor. They advanced to the interior. The Prophet (mpbuh) was in the midst of a large contingent of his fighters. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 'You see the ruffians and the lowly followers of the Quraysh.' He indicated by striking one of his hands over the other that they should be killed. So we went off on his orders and if anyone wanted a person killed; he was slain. No one could offer any resistance. Then Abu Sufyan said: Messenger, the blood of the Quraysh has become very cheap. The Prophet said: 'Kill all who stand in your way.'"
Tabari VIII:176 "'Fight only those who fight you.' When Khalid came upon them in the lower part of Mecca, he fought them, and Allah put them to the fight. Zubayr encountered a squadron of Quraysh on the slopes of Kada and killed them." Yes, "killed them." So... "When the Prophet arrived, the people stood before him to swear allegiance to him, and so the Meccans became Muslims."
Tabari VIII:178/Ishaq:550 "Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka'aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa'd. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur'an Revelations. Then he apostatized, reverted to being a polytheist, and returned to Mecca."
Tabari VIII:181 "According to Waqidi the Messenger ordered that six men and four women should be assassinated..."
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
you say, "What about Jesus (PBUH)? What he was given? We call what he was given Bible but not available today. " Jesus was not given anything in terms of a message. He claimed to be the son of God and therefore God, bringing us the message of God right from the horses mouth. This was considered blasphemy, hence he was put on trial and crucified. He said a bunch of interesting things while he was here. Ever read them? Don't bother trying to get it from Islamic sources, they will be prejudiced, they know nothing about Jesus.
Me: "The Qur'an is not flawless. "
You: "Prove one." Many of the Qur'an's mistakes have been pointed out to you. No point, you won't accept the truth or valid reasoning.
You keep accusing me of being influenced by propaganda. You too are influenced by propaganda. Everyone is. We look for truth but must first find our way out of our influences and education. Is there other ways of looking at it? I think so. It's too bad we have a different view of God but this in not a requirement of our friendship as far as I'm concerned. So maybe some day we will meet and 'the clear light in me will see the clear light in you' and we will be friends knowing that we want to do good and we simply enjoy each other. Nemaste.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
You: "Heart (soul) of human is potentially home of God. But only enter pure clean home. (no evil in the heart)" Who do you know that is perfect, totally pure with no bad in them?
Me: "If God is omniscient and created all the world then God is not a being separate from us."
You: "Yes but God is not material. http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/1.htm " Agreed. Nice link BTW, beautifully said except the propensity of Allah to claim that he put rocks/mountains on the earth to stabilize it seems out of place.
Positive energy; I'm going with that which produces or is intended to produce good. What is good? That which benefits everything and everyone.
I don't see why God needs us to love him/her in order for him/her to love us. It makes sense that God would love us despite out faults, and that it is not conditional on our loving him. God does not need our love, it is us that needs his love, which we can only get if it is available. If he holds out on us until we love him first, it is not a very good plan for our salvation.
You, "God is not representative of anything" I disagree, God is representative of everything, it is all his.
you say, "Why God should be responsible to Love? " Well as above, it is our only hope of salvation. Love is the only thing that could solve all human problems. Is God's hatred or indifference going to bring about our salvation? Likewise solve our problems with hatred or indifference?
Me; "always Muslims fighting non Muslims. "
You: "Disagree.
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews " Okay, sorry. Not well spoken by me.
you: "You do not know history and you are doing prejudice. Jews were free but themselves started the war." Please show me a Hadith or historical account that shows the Jews struck the first blow had an army or were even remotely interested in fighting the Muslims in either Qurayza or Khaybar.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
You: "1- this is based on your Image. not on actual research of you. to prove please show some example."
I've read both and neither Muhammad nor Allah quote anything that you can look up in the Bible.
Let me re-phrase that. You will not find Allah's quotes of Biblical characters in the Bible. What's more, the dialogue of these characters in the Qur'an is concerned with entirely different issues than the Bible.
You cannot show me any legitimate proof that Islam existed any time from Jesus back to Noah and you know it. the Qur'anic tale is completely unproven. It's out on a limb and counter to all known human history. With this at stake and a ridiculous lack evidence, you simply must admit that it is possible that the Qur'an is wrong. If so, you know how the dominoes fall.
A world conspiracy is a pretty thin thread to hang from when you consider the mountain of ancient artifacts that continue to be found.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
you say, " Allah only cheat who cheat Allah". That statement is the crux of non spiritual thinking. Why would God have to cheat anyone? I mean ANYONE. Isn't he God? How can he be cheated? He knows everything. If you fail in your heart it is only man who cheats himself. God is being cheated so he cheats back!? Someone who is trying to control other people might try to out cheat them, but this should be well below a spiritual know er of truth like God. Why would God stoop to play petty cheating games with man?
I think God is the inner most purest energy, thought, expression possible. That which draws us toward doing good for the sake of connecting to this positive energy. Not that which tries to frighten us away from doing bad. But even if it is both, I cannot see how it is possible for God to cheat us nor why he would want to, or find it necessary to.
This might be a reasonable sentiment for a cunning human wanting to outsmart his adversaries, but a God who stoops this low, would be a weakling.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
"Inclusive = good, exclusive = bad." That's it.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
Who among us has never done any wrong?
Allah only does positive things for those who 'fear him and obey the messenger'. All others will meet him in Hell where he will take out his anger on them in violent acts perpetrating endless pain and humiliation that could only come from a source of hatred.
Why?
Did the creator of the Universe have such enormous hatred for what he was creating?
Is he a Sadist torturing and humiliating us for his own pleasure? Humiliating humanity does not make sense in the context of God. Humiliating and tormenting people is negative and hateful energy which simply cannot be justified. Oh ya, 'might makes right', 'the ends justify the means'. This philosophy doesn't work. Life is a journey, the ends do not justify the means. The means, that which you do and think, represent your position in life. Doing bad things to get the result you want is a really poor, if not impossible, position for God to take in my opinion.
Furthermore why does Allah say the Qur'an's message is a confirmation of Biblical scriptures which bring a message of love, and then change the message to one of spite and hatred. Love is only doled out (if at all) to those who follow his instructions explicitly.
This scripture leaves me with a quiet assurance that Allah has got it all wrong.
Gotta go.
A reply on Conversation: proving Koran
The Islamic perspective of God leaves us with a God that acts like a tyrant. He threatens and points out with great clarity that he will personally participate in torturing us, his creation, in Hell. Then he offers us a paradise if we follow his guidelines, that is wholly separate from him and contains physical aspects that is assumed to be of interest or value to us. Paradise seems to appeal to what some would want if they still had earthly concerns after death, which I find strange. Heaven in the Bible is spending time communing with God and being in God's presence, which seems to make sense if God is good and the source of all life and knowledge and indeed where we came from. To be fair there is also some depiction's of Heaven in the Bible which include streets of gold etc. As if we humans would be interested in that after death.
Questions remain: How could God be willing and able to participate in tormenting and torturing his creation in Hell once their physical life on earth is done?
How is this morally possible?
How can God do this and also call himself Merciful and Forgiving, especially when he says that the infidel disbelievers will never be forgiven or released from their Hellish torment?
How can God be Loving, Merciful, and Forgiving and still literally “curse” certain members of his creation? This is decidedly schizophrenic.
It appears that only if one believes Allah is God first, can you justify this nonsense.
Con't.