Feb 1 2013: I suggest that instead, you make sure to listen to your kids, and take their requests and point of view very seriously. That way they will have a clear sense when someone is putting them down.
Keep them clear of shame and blame. That way, healthy is normal.
Feb 1 2013: This is a magnificent post. Abuse is complex, and inter-related. Neither the abuser, nor the abused intend, or even understand how they got there.
The more I read, the more I am convinced that those who were abused work hard to understand how and why they were abused, and come to conclusions very similar to yours.
Abusers simply continue to blame the abused. Just like always.
Feb 1 2013: I am not Connor.Though I may have something in common with him.
Dashel, you obviously know more about munitions that I do. You know far more about injuries caused by weapons, than I have any interest in learning. I am a pacifist, and have never owned a gun. I haven't so much as touched a gun in thirty years.
You missed my point. My estranged told the police that I had a gun. My civil liberties were eliminated in a matter of hours. I have never returned to my home, no gun was ever recovered, after exhaustive firearms records searches, there are no records. How do I prove that I never had a gun? I can't. Has anyone questioned my estranged's credibility? No.
My point is that Leslie says one place that she is holding the gun that threatened her with bullets. Elsewhere, she says the gun she is holding cannot fire bullets. See the TED talk with Pam Meyer. Those two guns cannot be the same gun. There is some kind of elaboration going on here.
I wouldn't suggest for a second that a threat with a knife, would be any less than a threat with a gun with or without "hollow point bullets." In fact, in there is no difference between being threatened by a real gun, or a replica that you believe to be real.
Leslie is willing to use a replica. That is disturbing to me. If she was terrorized by that weapon for years, she would know better.
As to me being a coward? You are probably right. Real men take abuse in silence. Real men don't use their intuition. Real men laugh at cowards who have been abused.
In the comments below you say the gun you are holding in the lecture is a prop.
In the lecture you say: "I had this gun, loaded with hollow point bullets pointed at my head..."
I am confused. Was the gun you are holding the gun that Connor used? Or is that gun actually a different gun than Connor used?
Does it really matter what kind of bullets were in the chamber? Did it even have a chamber?
Is this prop necessary when the subject matter you are talking about is already so emotionally charged? I don't understand why you would want to heat up an issue that, judging from all the deleted posts, is already over-heated.
Many victims of abuse experience symptoms of PTSD. Or worse, CPTSD because the trauma is sustained over such a prolonged period. Symptoms like anxiety, depression, hyper-vigilance, lost of self esteem, suicide ideation, and so on. In your account you seem free of these problems. How do you account for your remarkable mental health under such trying conditions?
Secondly, you said that as a young woman, you thought that you would be immune to spousal abuse. Through-out your ordeal, you didn't know it was happening. And now, it will never happen again. This is curious to me. You seem as unaware of your vulnerability then, as now. Why were you vulnerable to being abused, as a young woman, but not now? Even, why were you ever vulnerable to abuse? You seem like such a self-assured, indomitable woman that it is hard to imagine that you could have ever been abused.
Jan 29 2013: Yes, I agree with this most deeply. This is a systemic problem that everyone needs to work toward solving. I can identify with many of the women who have spoken out. The system is not working for anybody. I have been treated badly, but my lawyer also told me of a woman client who has a written death threat, and the police do nothing. I signed a no-contact order "to keep the peace." It was $250 unsecured bond. When I signed it I was disgusted. If I had any intention of harm, this would mean nothing. My estranged seemed satisfied only because she was not at risk, but now I had a police record. My sympathies are with the women that are truly at risk, and this is all they have for protection.
I don't think it is a gender issue. It is a power and control issue. Somehow people seek "security" by controlling others. It is common. It starts a home with the most truly vulnerable, our children. What happened to me was not so much that I am male, but because my estranged had status, money, gender, and a deep insecurity on her side.
I believe that we start by listening to, and respecting the voice of our children. Then, when someone is not respecting their voice, they know to protect themselves, rather than just trying harder, and getting drawn in deeper and deeper into abuse.
Jan 29 2013: Megan, I nominate you to do that TED talk that you were hoping for. Men get sucked in this way too.
I wonder if the biggest vulnerability is the pride of thinking that "it won't happen to me."
The other is the bizarre inverted hubris of thinking that if I make enough sacrifices, if I am patient enough, loving enough, then he/she will realize the depth of my love. (Or... I can get what I what.) It doesn't work that way does it. It is a kind of self-deprecating pride. Bad idea, but I know it well.
I think that this story really starts a very young age. I learned really young, that if I wanted something, I needed to make my mother feel good about herself.
Where does that beast myth come from anyway? It is a really bad idea to be sure, but do parents teach that to their daughters?
Jan 28 2013: I am not aware of a statue of limitations on abuse. That is not my point. I am not defending abuse of any sort. I do not think any violence is acceptable, nor do I think that controlling behavior is acceptable. Both are abusive. I am not the judge of Leslie's divorce case. But I do have unanswered questions. For example, brandishing the alleged weapon is a theatrical stunt that is shocking and incomprehensible to me.
The fact that her story is twenty years old is important only insofar as she is speaking on TED, and written a book, and purporting to be a spokesperson on abuse. In those twenty years, she could have learned a broader view of abuse. She talks about her story, and then extrapolates it to being universal.
I believe this "gendering" of abuse does a huge disservice to any objective understanding of abuse. It means that women (generally) can indulge themselves in a purified view of abuse. As long as it is "his" problem, rather than "our" (societies) problem, sons will continue to be attacked by their mothers, women can make false claims about their partners, and so daughters will be isolated from their fathers. And so on. Look instead to the brilliant TED talk of the young woman who organized a dance in the prison to bring fathers together with their daughters.
Leslie's story is so similar to that of my wife's, that I can hardly listen. I do know that my wifes story is fabricated. I also know that police, social workers, and psychologists, can't even be bothered to look at documents that refute her claims. Without any evidence, her story is accepted as true. That is also abuse. It is the abuse of men, not merely by their partner, but by the culture.
It is also abuse of women. My pre-adolescent daughter has now been accused of violence against her mother. Again, no evidence. No-one believes my daughter either.
Where do I turn to defend my daughter against this manipulation?
Jan 28 2013: I know what you mean. I was in counseling for eight months before I got the courage to see a divorce lawyer. The lawyer told me that I had to tell my partner before he would file for divorce. A month later when I summoned the courage to talk about it, I was yelled at for spending money, and questioned where I got the money to pay the lawyer, and then silence. I tried again about two weeks later. Silence. One day, when the house was empty, there was a knock on the door. I was arrested.
When I filed for divorce, the response was to see a social worker and I was accused of grooming for sexual contact.
I was left without work, financial resources, huge legal bills. I was stripped of everything that I have ever owned, and lost all access to my daughter for months. No shelters for me. Now, my eleven year old daughter has also been accused of threatening my partner with a knife. No evidence for this either.
Of everything I lost, it is my self esteem that I miss most.
But this is not a gender issue, it is an issue of power and control. "They" are also smart, complex broken women.
TEDCred score: +2.10 TEDCred reflects your contribution to the TED community.
A comment on Conversation: Is there anything that a human being can never possibly do?
Be objective.
Know the future.
Read the mind of another.
Turn back time.
Find certainty.
Avoid pain.
Look in the Face of God.
This is a quick list. Kind of silly, we know that they can't be done, but pretty well universally keep trying anyway.
I almost forgot, we will never "win the War on Drugs," eliminate poverty, or end crime.
Finally, the thing that humans will never be able to do... is to know their limits.
A reply on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
Keep them clear of shame and blame. That way, healthy is normal.
A reply on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
The more I read, the more I am convinced that those who were abused work hard to understand how and why they were abused, and come to conclusions very similar to yours.
Abusers simply continue to blame the abused. Just like always.
A comment on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
Dashel, you obviously know more about munitions that I do. You know far more about injuries caused by weapons, than I have any interest in learning. I am a pacifist, and have never owned a gun. I haven't so much as touched a gun in thirty years.
You missed my point. My estranged told the police that I had a gun. My civil liberties were eliminated in a matter of hours. I have never returned to my home, no gun was ever recovered, after exhaustive firearms records searches, there are no records. How do I prove that I never had a gun? I can't. Has anyone questioned my estranged's credibility? No.
My point is that Leslie says one place that she is holding the gun that threatened her with bullets. Elsewhere, she says the gun she is holding cannot fire bullets. See the TED talk with Pam Meyer. Those two guns cannot be the same gun. There is some kind of elaboration going on here.
I wouldn't suggest for a second that a threat with a knife, would be any less than a threat with a gun with or without "hollow point bullets." In fact, in there is no difference between being threatened by a real gun, or a replica that you believe to be real.
Leslie is willing to use a replica. That is disturbing to me. If she was terrorized by that weapon for years, she would know better.
As to me being a coward? You are probably right. Real men take abuse in silence. Real men don't use their intuition. Real men laugh at cowards who have been abused.
A comment on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
In the comments below you say the gun you are holding in the lecture is a prop.
In the lecture you say: "I had this gun, loaded with hollow point bullets pointed at my head..."
I am confused. Was the gun you are holding the gun that Connor used? Or is that gun actually a different gun than Connor used?
Does it really matter what kind of bullets were in the chamber? Did it even have a chamber?
Is this prop necessary when the subject matter you are talking about is already so emotionally charged? I don't understand why you would want to heat up an issue that, judging from all the deleted posts, is already over-heated.
A comment on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
Many victims of abuse experience symptoms of PTSD. Or worse, CPTSD because the trauma is sustained over such a prolonged period. Symptoms like anxiety, depression, hyper-vigilance, lost of self esteem, suicide ideation, and so on. In your account you seem free of these problems. How do you account for your remarkable mental health under such trying conditions?
Secondly, you said that as a young woman, you thought that you would be immune to spousal abuse. Through-out your ordeal, you didn't know it was happening. And now, it will never happen again. This is curious to me. You seem as unaware of your vulnerability then, as now. Why were you vulnerable to being abused, as a young woman, but not now? Even, why were you ever vulnerable to abuse? You seem like such a self-assured, indomitable woman that it is hard to imagine that you could have ever been abused.
A comment on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
I don't think it is a gender issue. It is a power and control issue. Somehow people seek "security" by controlling others. It is common. It starts a home with the most truly vulnerable, our children. What happened to me was not so much that I am male, but because my estranged had status, money, gender, and a deep insecurity on her side.
I believe that we start by listening to, and respecting the voice of our children. Then, when someone is not respecting their voice, they know to protect themselves, rather than just trying harder, and getting drawn in deeper and deeper into abuse.
A reply on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
I wonder if the biggest vulnerability is the pride of thinking that "it won't happen to me."
The other is the bizarre inverted hubris of thinking that if I make enough sacrifices, if I am patient enough, loving enough, then he/she will realize the depth of my love. (Or... I can get what I what.) It doesn't work that way does it. It is a kind of self-deprecating pride. Bad idea, but I know it well.
I think that this story really starts a very young age. I learned really young, that if I wanted something, I needed to make my mother feel good about herself.
Where does that beast myth come from anyway? It is a really bad idea to be sure, but do parents teach that to their daughters?
A comment on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
The fact that her story is twenty years old is important only insofar as she is speaking on TED, and written a book, and purporting to be a spokesperson on abuse. In those twenty years, she could have learned a broader view of abuse. She talks about her story, and then extrapolates it to being universal.
I believe this "gendering" of abuse does a huge disservice to any objective understanding of abuse. It means that women (generally) can indulge themselves in a purified view of abuse. As long as it is "his" problem, rather than "our" (societies) problem, sons will continue to be attacked by their mothers, women can make false claims about their partners, and so daughters will be isolated from their fathers. And so on. Look instead to the brilliant TED talk of the young woman who organized a dance in the prison to bring fathers together with their daughters.
Leslie's story is so similar to that of my wife's, that I can hardly listen. I do know that my wifes story is fabricated. I also know that police, social workers, and psychologists, can't even be bothered to look at documents that refute her claims. Without any evidence, her story is accepted as true. That is also abuse. It is the abuse of men, not merely by their partner, but by the culture.
It is also abuse of women. My pre-adolescent daughter has now been accused of violence against her mother. Again, no evidence. No-one believes my daughter either.
Where do I turn to defend my daughter against this manipulation?
A reply on Talk: Leslie Morgan Steiner: Why domestic violence victims don't leave
When I filed for divorce, the response was to see a social worker and I was accused of grooming for sexual contact.
I was left without work, financial resources, huge legal bills. I was stripped of everything that I have ever owned, and lost all access to my daughter for months. No shelters for me. Now, my eleven year old daughter has also been accused of threatening my partner with a knife. No evidence for this either.
Of everything I lost, it is my self esteem that I miss most.
But this is not a gender issue, it is an issue of power and control. "They" are also smart, complex broken women.