2 days ago: I agree life has improved immensely for many more of us since Paine's time. Unfortunately wretched poverty is still a reality for third world countries. Its hard to argue with statistics and the statistics tell us that billions of us still suffer from lack of the basics- food, shelter, clean water.
6 days ago: To address that last question you made. I do not believe science can establish values. Values come from deep thinking or for some religious texts.
May 9 2013: Remember I said 'justifies some social welfare.' I would reform food stamps so that everyone gets it and there is no administration to determine eligibility. I do not support welfare because the money can be spent on frivolous items.
May 9 2013: Yes. And broad socialism does not work, you're right. But what about simply food security? Because civilized individuals cannot find sustenance from the land unless they own it and/or know how to cultivate it. So the mass of individuals born into a civilized society are at a disadvantage.
May 7 2013: Well it is necessary to understand totalitarian agriculture to understand the difference between the two societies being compared. Thomas Paine, although unfamiliar with the modern term totalitarian agriculture, was observing its effects on society. He further explains:
It is always possible to go from the natural to the civilized state, but it is never possible to go from the civilized to the natural state. The reason is that man in a natural state, subsisting by hunting, requires ten times the quantity of land to range over to procure himself sustenance, than would support him in a civilized state, where the earth is cultivated.
When, therefore, a country becomes populous by the additional aids of cultivation, art and science, there is a necessity of preserving things in that state; because without it there cannot be sustenance for more, perhaps, than a tenth part of its inhabitants. The thing, therefore, now to be done is to remedy the evils and preserve the benefits that have arisen to society by passing from the natural to that which is called the civilized state.
So by our passing from the natural to the civilized state we have made some people unbelievably wealthy and a lot more wretchedly poor. Thomas Paine and I, propose that any peroson born into the state of civilized living ought not be worse than if he had been born into the "primitive" or natural state of man.
May 7 2013: I would argue that civilization causes the overpopulation. My definition of civilization is based on the means in which the society finds its food. It is called totalitarian agriculture. The culture of totalitarian agriculture at this time currently exists in approximately 99.98% of the world's human population. The general idea of totalitarian agriculture is that the world was made for man and man was ment to rule it, and as such turn all forms of food (animal and plant alike) into human food.
May 6 2013: I feel like you could ask a similar question for any environmental concern. Wny not drive less? Why not buy less stuff? Why not eat less meat? I feel like that kind of cultural change could take a long time to manifest.
But humans still have to take from nature in order to survive. So we need to do a balancing act. First we need to answer these questions: How much land should humans occupy, how much pollution can we release, how many species can we endanger? Then we need to create a whole new occupation: sustainability enforcement.
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A reply on Conversation: Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice, justifies some kind of social welfare.
A reply on Conversation: Is it time for philosophy to do away with metaphysics?
A comment on Conversation: Is it time for philosophy to do away with metaphysics?
A reply on Conversation: Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice, justifies some kind of social welfare.
A reply on Conversation: Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice, justifies some kind of social welfare.
A reply on Conversation: Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice, justifies some kind of social welfare.
It is always possible to go from the natural to the civilized state, but it is never possible to go from the civilized to the natural state. The reason is that man in a natural state, subsisting by hunting, requires ten times the quantity of land to range over to procure himself sustenance, than would support him in a civilized state, where the earth is cultivated.
When, therefore, a country becomes populous by the additional aids of cultivation, art and science, there is a necessity of preserving things in that state; because without it there cannot be sustenance for more, perhaps, than a tenth part of its inhabitants. The thing, therefore, now to be done is to remedy the evils and preserve the benefits that have arisen to society by passing from the natural to that which is called the civilized state.
So by our passing from the natural to the civilized state we have made some people unbelievably wealthy and a lot more wretchedly poor. Thomas Paine and I, propose that any peroson born into the state of civilized living ought not be worse than if he had been born into the "primitive" or natural state of man.
A reply on Conversation: Thomas Paine's Agrarian Justice, justifies some kind of social welfare.
A reply on Conversation: Prison labor to sort our trash!
A reply on Conversation: Prison labor to sort our trash!
A comment on Conversation: Make Ecocide a crime
But humans still have to take from nature in order to survive. So we need to do a balancing act. First we need to answer these questions: How much land should humans occupy, how much pollution can we release, how many species can we endanger? Then we need to create a whole new occupation: sustainability enforcement.
What are your thoughts?