Jan 26 2013: What a rich and fascinating set of responses -
I admit I rarely talk with those around me in Chichester England about the tribal peoples,
it seems as if people can't easily see the connection with their lives and knowledge,
as if the 'gear shift' were too large to 'enter the world' of the peoples I am talking about
And yet here, a wealth of imaginative and informed reaction
After all of this exchange, I think want I want to point to most as the reason for this thread is ;
a sanity, a healthfulness, a human connection and life at a healthy human scale -
some quality of their lives that makes sense, is real, is warm, strong, appealing and calm
of course I acknowledge the points made here -
that we should not romanticise, project utopian fantasies, create ethnic theme parks and so on
nor should we think we can 'be like them' or abolish high technology
to me they are more like a pointer to what we are missing, what we are looking for,
what we have forgotten about ourselves - a core part of our lives that we are losing
and my feeling is that we can not 'study' them and abstract concepts from them like scientists,
which is how we tend to approach all questions and problems
but we can be permeated by their influence ...
and so far the only way I know to do that is to go and be with them,
in their life as they lead it
this whole thread is my attempt to find another way to move that humanising, healthful influence -
to my great surprise, it has brought forth a great many personal and meaningful responses
(in such cultures, everything is personal and meaningful !)
If you have more to add, please bring it on !
Like further responses, or ideas about where we can take it from here
Jan 9 2013: I see that people have raised the question of whether we can be in contact with such peoples
at all without harming them -
from my experience this is the truest observation and concern - our record on this speaks for itself
It is calamitous
I believe, under certain conditions, we can however - and I'd like to exchange more on that
For us more fundamentally in this thread, what is it, as Carolyn and others ask, that we have to gain ?
As per the initial idea here ?
I suggest that anyone who spent time with tribal or ancient societies would learn things
that they could bring back to the West or industrialised world
we speak a lot of core human values and shared values, and universal qualities of human life -
that is those of us with an engaged spirit in our world -
but we know our societies are overcomplicated and overwhelmed with complication,
and distant from the basic elements of life, and the natural forces that underly our lives
we are in a never-ending race, where we are particles moving, or being moved,
in a direction we do not even know, and may largely disagree with -
submerged in complication, detail and stress and pressure, we have perhaps
forgotten what we are aiming for
I believe tribal communities, and all old closely connected communities that are
not inhumanly complicated and hurried, and are in a physical relationship with their
environment remind us of where we all come from, and of the basics, the universals
It takes us out of and beyond the technical, the intellectual and the competitive rush,
and back into a sane, peaceful, connected version of ourselves -
I think only the old civilisations can do this -
and make us of the high-tech societies remember what really matters,
and who we really are
Jan 5 2013: let me try Carolyn, by telling a little of the story
I arrived there near sunset -
the village was 3 huts, 2 or 3 women and some small children, relatives of the Chief's daughter Rose,
who I had met in a town - she had taken me there, and was the only English speaker
as is customary, woven straw mats were brought out for us all to sit, and the sun was setting
there was no other sound than Rose and the women talking, catching up on news
and no light except the strong glow of starlight - so calm, so simple
I lay on my back, watching the stars and hearing the soothing trickle of conversation -
small shapes appeared in the half-light on the corners of my mat,
as the children lay down, half-snoozing and half listening to the women talk
I will never be able to explain this, but in that moment, way out in a remote desert tribal region
where I knew no-one yet, and understood not one word, I felt as if I was Home
In the many following days and further visits, life felt so spacious and without hurry -
it felt reasonable, sane, human. alive and healthy
Life there is materially simple to an extreme degree
you sleep outside on a straw mat, people appear to visit you and talk,
and visiting each other every day is just the normal way for them -
'alone' does not really exist
there is a sanitising effect of living such a simple and physical life
in a natural environment - and the quality of time itself changes
I usually find that time as we know it stops
I don't want to fall into the trap of romanticising the place or people -
they are a human and flawed as anyone else
but the effect on a Westerner like myself is profound -
and when you come back to our culture, for a while you are perceiving
your own culture from the outside - which you may never have done before
you get a glimpse of what all the people of the old cultures are seeing when they look at us
Jan 1 2013: Quite right Greg - with the Turkanas I broke the habit of a lifetime and took a guide -
he is an urban Turkana and a personal friend
Furthermore, it turns out the language is only a small barrier - and that the cultural difference
is the real challenge, or the real 'language difference'
Since my fourth visit to the Interior, I start to get accustomed to their ways and rhythms -
it is infinitely rich, highly developed - a true civilisation
I have never enjoyed, or gained so much, as I do with this growing friendship with these people
the truth is, it could take more than a lifetime to really understand their culture
Jan 1 2013: unseen and non-consensual filtering is clearly a risk for the democratisation of knowledge
that we all hoped from from the internet -
and for example Google is returning either tamed or commercial-based hits on some subjects
that socially aware people like to research
I would like to know how people are getting around this -
but one idea mentioned by a contributor below is this :
have a filter option function which is clearly visible
and can be set by the user to the wanted criterion, or switched off
I agree with Eli Pariser that we do not want a new and invisible shaping and filtering or editing
of the knowledge we can access - because free access to information is the basis of democracy
Dec 31 2012: this morning, on BBC radio's reputed 'Today' programme -
the presenter seemed to argue that good news in media reporting is boring ...
I hardly know what to answer to that idea
Julia Bacha's talk mentions the power of active, non-violent opposition
as demonstrated by Ghandi in India
I am surprised we don't hear more about this approach to positive change
Dec 31 2012: Ronny Edry has done something truly incredible here -
perhaps we have all heard, or lived, the experience that we can not hate a people
that we have in some equal and human way met and communicated with
So how can his idea be taken further ?
We all have the ability to creatively design, as Edry has -
What further ways are there to develop what he has done here ?
Dec 31 2012: Loretta,
I agree strongly with what you say about misunderstanding the Chinese -
I would truly like to understand better - and I believe many in the West would too
our information here about the Chinese is very limited -
and mostly fearful about the extreme growth in the size and power of the Chinese economy
where can we learn better and more truthful views of the Chinese people
and their beliefs, values and aspirations ?
can you tell us something about this ?
Dec 30 2012: Colleen, I have also had such experiences in Egypt, and all over Africa -
perhaps these stories are the only way to communicate to people what
Africa is really about
but here is a specific remark I propose to all looking at this subject -
What do we mean exactly by poverty ?
first-hand experiences like mine and Colleen's above are widespread in Africa -
and it feels to us like great wealth and a thing of beauty -
something we will spend most of our money to go and be a part of as outside visitors
Africa is overflowing with human wealth
if a family is housed, eating and in a harmonious environment -
then we must think very carefully about the word 'poor'
and wonder if it does not apply more to some Western societies
we certainly must dispense forthwith with GDP and per capita income measures -
which some Ted speakers refer to as if they were reliable
many tribal cultures do not use or own money at all
and higher income countries in Africa often suffer far higher levels of
real poverty suffering
Dec 29 2012: Thank you for your input and responses so far
I wish to add something, and also ask for your help
I want to add this -
for fully one year after my first visit to the Turkana, I felt many of my core assumptions
being turned on their head - at the age of 44, as someone with a university degree, life experience etc
it was tranformational - in a way that some say of meditation and yoga practices
when I watch some of the inspired people of the West speak, on Ted or elsewhere,
I realise we are in search not just of quantitative adjustments to our way of life -
but for new paradigms that contain human wholeness, justice - a beneficial, sustainable way to live
and some say, or imply, that we are so far from that reality that a kind of broad-reaching, shared creative
project of development is our pathway towards something better -
and also that, for the first time in history, this may actually be possible due to communications technologies
some say in fact, it has already begun - a democratisation of knowledge
where I ask for a little help is on this point -
I can feel that my own view has been changed by my tribal friends -
and I saw the same of 2 Ted speakers - one working in East Africa, one in the USA with the Sioux
here are some pointers, perhaps you can help me develop them -
firstly, I saw a place where nobody is hurried or agitated - I invite you to look around yourselves
and see what degree of agitated hurry you perceive - this I believe is more important than we realise
secondly - I discovered there that I was in the middle of a drought and a famine -
when I left, the family insisted - and would not take no for an answer -
that I take one of the 4 or 5 healthy goats (the remaining 20 were almost dead of hunger)
in a situation where their own children sometimes die of hunger/thirst related causes
thirdly - most astonishingly - after years of travelling Africa, I found the poorest people
to be the most peaceful and happy I had ever met on earth
TEDCred score: +1.10 TEDCred reflects your contribution to the TED community.
A comment on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
I admit I rarely talk with those around me in Chichester England about the tribal peoples,
it seems as if people can't easily see the connection with their lives and knowledge,
as if the 'gear shift' were too large to 'enter the world' of the peoples I am talking about
And yet here, a wealth of imaginative and informed reaction
After all of this exchange, I think want I want to point to most as the reason for this thread is ;
a sanity, a healthfulness, a human connection and life at a healthy human scale -
some quality of their lives that makes sense, is real, is warm, strong, appealing and calm
of course I acknowledge the points made here -
that we should not romanticise, project utopian fantasies, create ethnic theme parks and so on
nor should we think we can 'be like them' or abolish high technology
to me they are more like a pointer to what we are missing, what we are looking for,
what we have forgotten about ourselves - a core part of our lives that we are losing
and my feeling is that we can not 'study' them and abstract concepts from them like scientists,
which is how we tend to approach all questions and problems
but we can be permeated by their influence ...
and so far the only way I know to do that is to go and be with them,
in their life as they lead it
this whole thread is my attempt to find another way to move that humanising, healthful influence -
to my great surprise, it has brought forth a great many personal and meaningful responses
(in such cultures, everything is personal and meaningful !)
If you have more to add, please bring it on !
Like further responses, or ideas about where we can take it from here
A comment on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
at all without harming them -
from my experience this is the truest observation and concern - our record on this speaks for itself
It is calamitous
I believe, under certain conditions, we can however - and I'd like to exchange more on that
For us more fundamentally in this thread, what is it, as Carolyn and others ask, that we have to gain ?
As per the initial idea here ?
I suggest that anyone who spent time with tribal or ancient societies would learn things
that they could bring back to the West or industrialised world
we speak a lot of core human values and shared values, and universal qualities of human life -
that is those of us with an engaged spirit in our world -
but we know our societies are overcomplicated and overwhelmed with complication,
and distant from the basic elements of life, and the natural forces that underly our lives
we are in a never-ending race, where we are particles moving, or being moved,
in a direction we do not even know, and may largely disagree with -
submerged in complication, detail and stress and pressure, we have perhaps
forgotten what we are aiming for
I believe tribal communities, and all old closely connected communities that are
not inhumanly complicated and hurried, and are in a physical relationship with their
environment remind us of where we all come from, and of the basics, the universals
It takes us out of and beyond the technical, the intellectual and the competitive rush,
and back into a sane, peaceful, connected version of ourselves -
I think only the old civilisations can do this -
and make us of the high-tech societies remember what really matters,
and who we really are
A reply on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
I arrived there near sunset -
the village was 3 huts, 2 or 3 women and some small children, relatives of the Chief's daughter Rose,
who I had met in a town - she had taken me there, and was the only English speaker
as is customary, woven straw mats were brought out for us all to sit, and the sun was setting
there was no other sound than Rose and the women talking, catching up on news
and no light except the strong glow of starlight - so calm, so simple
I lay on my back, watching the stars and hearing the soothing trickle of conversation -
small shapes appeared in the half-light on the corners of my mat,
as the children lay down, half-snoozing and half listening to the women talk
I will never be able to explain this, but in that moment, way out in a remote desert tribal region
where I knew no-one yet, and understood not one word, I felt as if I was Home
In the many following days and further visits, life felt so spacious and without hurry -
it felt reasonable, sane, human. alive and healthy
Life there is materially simple to an extreme degree
you sleep outside on a straw mat, people appear to visit you and talk,
and visiting each other every day is just the normal way for them -
'alone' does not really exist
there is a sanitising effect of living such a simple and physical life
in a natural environment - and the quality of time itself changes
I usually find that time as we know it stops
I don't want to fall into the trap of romanticising the place or people -
they are a human and flawed as anyone else
but the effect on a Westerner like myself is profound -
and when you come back to our culture, for a while you are perceiving
your own culture from the outside - which you may never have done before
you get a glimpse of what all the people of the old cultures are seeing when they look at us
A reply on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
he is an urban Turkana and a personal friend
Furthermore, it turns out the language is only a small barrier - and that the cultural difference
is the real challenge, or the real 'language difference'
Since my fourth visit to the Interior, I start to get accustomed to their ways and rhythms -
it is infinitely rich, highly developed - a true civilisation
I have never enjoyed, or gained so much, as I do with this growing friendship with these people
the truth is, it could take more than a lifetime to really understand their culture
A comment on Talk: Eli Pariser: Beware online "filter bubbles"
that we all hoped from from the internet -
and for example Google is returning either tamed or commercial-based hits on some subjects
that socially aware people like to research
I would like to know how people are getting around this -
but one idea mentioned by a contributor below is this :
have a filter option function which is clearly visible
and can be set by the user to the wanted criterion, or switched off
I agree with Eli Pariser that we do not want a new and invisible shaping and filtering or editing
of the knowledge we can access - because free access to information is the basis of democracy
A comment on Talk: Julia Bacha: Pay attention to nonviolence
the presenter seemed to argue that good news in media reporting is boring ...
I hardly know what to answer to that idea
Julia Bacha's talk mentions the power of active, non-violent opposition
as demonstrated by Ghandi in India
I am surprised we don't hear more about this approach to positive change
A comment on Talk: Israel and Iran: A love story?
perhaps we have all heard, or lived, the experience that we can not hate a people
that we have in some equal and human way met and communicated with
So how can his idea be taken further ?
We all have the ability to creatively design, as Edry has -
What further ways are there to develop what he has done here ?
A reply on Talk: Jay Walker on the world's English mania
I agree strongly with what you say about misunderstanding the Chinese -
I would truly like to understand better - and I believe many in the West would too
our information here about the Chinese is very limited -
and mostly fearful about the extreme growth in the size and power of the Chinese economy
where can we learn better and more truthful views of the Chinese people
and their beliefs, values and aspirations ?
can you tell us something about this ?
A reply on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
perhaps these stories are the only way to communicate to people what
Africa is really about
but here is a specific remark I propose to all looking at this subject -
What do we mean exactly by poverty ?
first-hand experiences like mine and Colleen's above are widespread in Africa -
and it feels to us like great wealth and a thing of beauty -
something we will spend most of our money to go and be a part of as outside visitors
Africa is overflowing with human wealth
if a family is housed, eating and in a harmonious environment -
then we must think very carefully about the word 'poor'
and wonder if it does not apply more to some Western societies
we certainly must dispense forthwith with GDP and per capita income measures -
which some Ted speakers refer to as if they were reliable
many tribal cultures do not use or own money at all
and higher income countries in Africa often suffer far higher levels of
real poverty suffering
A comment on Conversation: We of the industrialised countries have a tremendous amount to gain from the tribal peoples of the world, concerning problems of our era.
I wish to add something, and also ask for your help
I want to add this -
for fully one year after my first visit to the Turkana, I felt many of my core assumptions
being turned on their head - at the age of 44, as someone with a university degree, life experience etc
it was tranformational - in a way that some say of meditation and yoga practices
when I watch some of the inspired people of the West speak, on Ted or elsewhere,
I realise we are in search not just of quantitative adjustments to our way of life -
but for new paradigms that contain human wholeness, justice - a beneficial, sustainable way to live
and some say, or imply, that we are so far from that reality that a kind of broad-reaching, shared creative
project of development is our pathway towards something better -
and also that, for the first time in history, this may actually be possible due to communications technologies
some say in fact, it has already begun - a democratisation of knowledge
where I ask for a little help is on this point -
I can feel that my own view has been changed by my tribal friends -
and I saw the same of 2 Ted speakers - one working in East Africa, one in the USA with the Sioux
here are some pointers, perhaps you can help me develop them -
firstly, I saw a place where nobody is hurried or agitated - I invite you to look around yourselves
and see what degree of agitated hurry you perceive - this I believe is more important than we realise
secondly - I discovered there that I was in the middle of a drought and a famine -
when I left, the family insisted - and would not take no for an answer -
that I take one of the 4 or 5 healthy goats (the remaining 20 were almost dead of hunger)
in a situation where their own children sometimes die of hunger/thirst related causes
thirdly - most astonishingly - after years of travelling Africa, I found the poorest people
to be the most peaceful and happy I had ever met on earth
Thoughts ?