Jan 29 2013: Homeschooling encounters many of the questions you ask, so I will address it from the homeschooling perspective.
If a family figures out how to educate their children for $1000, and the father spends the rest at the bar, that innovative father's techniques can be spread through the community. Now fathers already do this with income they earn rather than spending it on education their children. With vouchers, however, children have aces up their sleeves: their mother, their grandparents, their friends, their friend's parents, parental abuse hotlines, church members, charity, and social pressure from the community. And with vouchers, charities and churches would likely spend more time and effort addressing the issues too. These aces for children do not exist in the current education system because it is a government monopoly run by bureaucrats. With that said, isn't it fair to the dedicated parents homeschooling their kids to give them money that their student would otherwise consume going to a public school?
1. What % of American parents do you think would cheat their own children out of an education?
2. Who would sacrifice more for your a child's education and are also in a better position to help them succeed?
A. The mother and father
B. Politicians and government officials
3. Who is more likely to more effectively spend government money on improving the lives of a child?
A. The mother and father
B. Politicians and government officials
All the education options will not prepare students equally, as students and parents have different talents, efforts, and interests. What can be guaranteed is that students will not be forced to go to a school assigned by zip code, that students have choice, that politicians are removed from taking salary out of the education budget, that politicians are removed from forcing textbooks and curriculum, that teachers compete for money from students and parents, and that responsibility is put into the hand of the people.
Jan 29 2013: Allan, excellent questions. Football first.
"where I live and teach, people would beat you to death if you suggested taking away their football program, even if it has never won a game"
Education cuts across America are targeting the athletic programs, and vouchers present an opportunity for football:
Fletcher High School's football program under public schooling:
-ticket sales +$90,075
-program advertisements and donations: +$15,700.
-Cash in: +$105775
Fletcher High School's football program scenario under $8000 vouchers:
-30 Football players x $8000: +$240,000
-ticket sales +$90,075
-program advertisements and donations: +$15,700
-Cash in: +$345,775
So the students and parents have $224,451 for the 30 athletes to pass education requirements, spend on football, pay other people to take their exams. At $100/hr, they have 2,244 hours of group tutoring to pass exams. They could play football all day 8pm-3pm, then do education at night. With 4-5 hours of practice every day they might win more games.
Numbers from:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-13/story/high_school_football_makes_money_but_not_enough
Some additional guesses:
-Parents and students directly responsible for payment, which increases donations and more involvement from families.
-Parents and students will be better at advertising, ticket sales, and other revenue generation methods because of the increased responsibility and involvement.
-Coaches will be much more involved in the education, even teaching classes. And because athletes work much harder for their coach than they do for their math teachers, athlete education improves.
-With athletes removed from normal classes, the nerdy kids they push around have a more enjoyable education experience.
Jan 25 2013: 40% pass rate! Brother of the cloth earns an F!
I have never understood the group learning, weak link, no child left behind mentality. I think education services would benefit from a "no child left unchallenged" mentality.
So your Catholic school has four years of science, and better science teaching than the public school...I was reading that public school science laboratory education is stifled by rules, regulations, and liabilities. Did your Catholic school also have too-dangeous-for-public-schools hands on science and chemistry laboratory experiments?
Another great thing that has been proven in a multitude of voucher studies is that parents become much more involved with and feel responsible for their child's education. Vouchers put money and choice into the hands of the students and parents which makes them responsible for education. Put money and choice into the hands of the government and people come welfare/entitlement/slaves of the state.
The research is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbMJtQL5ew
Jan 25 2013: ""
Advertisements across former Soviet countries
-"Paying up to $100,000 in cash to the group of 3 circus performers that teach circus tricks, maths, and Russian to a small rural American town for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 40 weeks."
-"Free room + food + experience of living in an American rural town. OBO/Negotiable"
Then I would use the other $60,000 to buy resources for all the students.
One year of Russian, circus performing, physical fitness, health, exercise, and math.
One year of Spanish, Mariachi bands, music, dance, song writing"
""
Allan, I think if you asked your students:
"what is the most outrageous craziest education plan you can think of for a class of 20 students for one year using $160,000" they would have many more great ideas than the ones I posted.
The combined creativity and education talents of 300 million American market participants is much greater than that of the central planning politicians and the Department of Education.
My favorite one so far with an open education market is from Greg Swanson: home schooling + a $50/month gym membership.
Jan 25 2013: And for inner cities, at the beginning of this post someone was concerned about transportation and costs of the poor rural areas: What are your opinions on this Allan, Arkady
""
"how do you envision competition in rural areas where there's only demand for one school in a wide radius"? Well, it's a buyers market.
Most of the rural towns I have been through in the Midwest want nothing more than the government to simply get off their lawn, and stay off. Education "vouchers" break the chains of government rule, regulation, management and operation.
So let's say this rural community has 20 K-12 students, $8000/student.
And the parents pool their money together
And the parents choose me to decide the education for their kids
And the parents choose me to be King of education.
So I have $160,000 of government money to spend on the education of 20 kids for an entire year -- plus anything the parents or community members decide to donate.
I would put up advertisements across Mexico:
"Paying $80,000 cash to the Mexican Mariachi band that teaches singing, dancing, music, songwriting to a small rural American town for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 40 weeks."
Use the remaining $80,000 to buy instruments, decorations, and whatever other supplies. And for one year they are learning Spanish, music, song writing, dancing, and interacting with musicians from Mexico.
So...
How do you envision the education change for the children of an inner city single mother of 5 who now has $40,000 a year for buying education products and services --- where before she had $0 and a worthless inner city public school assigned by zip code?
""
Jan 25 2013: .
"I think, the fundamental reason why private education cannot compete with government is because government won't let go of the monopoly. "
Jan 25 2013: Arkady is correct again.
Chile's voucher programs and open education markets provide an excellent example of how competition drives down price and drives up innovation. Price wars to attract buyers of products and services are seen across all industries and business, including private educational services like SAT tutoring.
I think the troll count for Brock is at three users now? Moderators still sleeping at the switch?
Brock's reasoning compels him to forcibly prevent people on food stamps from buying Halal and Kosher food.
It also compels him to prevent public officials from using their salary to send their own child to religious schools.
Government is not "respecting *an* establishment of religion"
Government is not funding religion.
With vouchers, the government is funding parents and students and giving them educational liberty: giving life, liberty and freedom of educational choice to the people.
If public schools are 50% cheaper than private schools, then the voucher system will see parents and students choosing public schools, and the public schools expanding and putting private schools out of business.
Not only that, the money going to the teachers of the public schools will increase significantly because the funding is from bottoms up through the parents and students directly to the teachers. This makes the politicians at the federal, state, county, and city levels obsolete, and makes the unions obsolete too. More money into the hands of the teachers.
Consider the statistics Robert Winner just posted for his home state of Arizona:
https://www.ted.com/conversations/15730/why_does_us_education_cost_so.html
1a. 1,077,831 K-12 students
1b. $7,931 per student
1c. $8,554,744,647
Under vouchers, all $8,554,744,647 would be going directly to the public school teachers, given to them by the students and parents. That's $6.2 billion dollars more to the teachers for resources for sciences, maths and engineering you like. So if anything, you should be an ardent supporter of vouchers.
TEDCred score: +1.80 TEDCred reflects your contribution to the TED community.
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
If a family figures out how to educate their children for $1000, and the father spends the rest at the bar, that innovative father's techniques can be spread through the community. Now fathers already do this with income they earn rather than spending it on education their children. With vouchers, however, children have aces up their sleeves: their mother, their grandparents, their friends, their friend's parents, parental abuse hotlines, church members, charity, and social pressure from the community. And with vouchers, charities and churches would likely spend more time and effort addressing the issues too. These aces for children do not exist in the current education system because it is a government monopoly run by bureaucrats. With that said, isn't it fair to the dedicated parents homeschooling their kids to give them money that their student would otherwise consume going to a public school?
1. What % of American parents do you think would cheat their own children out of an education?
2. Who would sacrifice more for your a child's education and are also in a better position to help them succeed?
A. The mother and father
B. Politicians and government officials
3. Who is more likely to more effectively spend government money on improving the lives of a child?
A. The mother and father
B. Politicians and government officials
All the education options will not prepare students equally, as students and parents have different talents, efforts, and interests. What can be guaranteed is that students will not be forced to go to a school assigned by zip code, that students have choice, that politicians are removed from taking salary out of the education budget, that politicians are removed from forcing textbooks and curriculum, that teachers compete for money from students and parents, and that responsibility is put into the hand of the people.
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
"where I live and teach, people would beat you to death if you suggested taking away their football program, even if it has never won a game"
Education cuts across America are targeting the athletic programs, and vouchers present an opportunity for football:
Fletcher High School's football program under public schooling:
-ticket sales +$90,075
-program advertisements and donations: +$15,700.
-Cash in: +$105775
-Program cost: -$76,700
-coaches' pay: -$33,856
-security costs: -$10,768
-Cash out: -$121,324
Total: -$15,549.
Fletcher High School's football program scenario under $8000 vouchers:
-30 Football players x $8000: +$240,000
-ticket sales +$90,075
-program advertisements and donations: +$15,700
-Cash in: +$345,775
-Program cost: -$76,700
-coaches' pay: -$33,856 -security costs: -$10,768
Cash out: -$121,324
Total: +$224,451
So the students and parents have $224,451 for the 30 athletes to pass education requirements, spend on football, pay other people to take their exams. At $100/hr, they have 2,244 hours of group tutoring to pass exams. They could play football all day 8pm-3pm, then do education at night. With 4-5 hours of practice every day they might win more games.
Numbers from:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-13/story/high_school_football_makes_money_but_not_enough
Some additional guesses:
-Parents and students directly responsible for payment, which increases donations and more involvement from families.
-Parents and students will be better at advertising, ticket sales, and other revenue generation methods because of the increased responsibility and involvement.
-Coaches will be much more involved in the education, even teaching classes. And because athletes work much harder for their coach than they do for their math teachers, athlete education improves.
-With athletes removed from normal classes, the nerdy kids they push around have a more enjoyable education experience.
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
I have never understood the group learning, weak link, no child left behind mentality. I think education services would benefit from a "no child left unchallenged" mentality.
So your Catholic school has four years of science, and better science teaching than the public school...I was reading that public school science laboratory education is stifled by rules, regulations, and liabilities. Did your Catholic school also have too-dangeous-for-public-schools hands on science and chemistry laboratory experiments?
Another great thing that has been proven in a multitude of voucher studies is that parents become much more involved with and feel responsible for their child's education. Vouchers put money and choice into the hands of the students and parents which makes them responsible for education. Put money and choice into the hands of the government and people come welfare/entitlement/slaves of the state.
The research is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTbMJtQL5ew
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
How do you feel about the science education at the Catholic school compared to the public ones?
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
Advertisements across former Soviet countries
-"Paying up to $100,000 in cash to the group of 3 circus performers that teach circus tricks, maths, and Russian to a small rural American town for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 40 weeks."
-"Free room + food + experience of living in an American rural town. OBO/Negotiable"
Then I would use the other $60,000 to buy resources for all the students.
One year of Russian, circus performing, physical fitness, health, exercise, and math.
One year of Spanish, Mariachi bands, music, dance, song writing"
""
Allan, I think if you asked your students:
"what is the most outrageous craziest education plan you can think of for a class of 20 students for one year using $160,000" they would have many more great ideas than the ones I posted.
The combined creativity and education talents of 300 million American market participants is much greater than that of the central planning politicians and the Department of Education.
My favorite one so far with an open education market is from Greg Swanson: home schooling + a $50/month gym membership.
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
""
"how do you envision competition in rural areas where there's only demand for one school in a wide radius"? Well, it's a buyers market.
Most of the rural towns I have been through in the Midwest want nothing more than the government to simply get off their lawn, and stay off. Education "vouchers" break the chains of government rule, regulation, management and operation.
So let's say this rural community has 20 K-12 students, $8000/student.
And the parents pool their money together
And the parents choose me to decide the education for their kids
And the parents choose me to be King of education.
So I have $160,000 of government money to spend on the education of 20 kids for an entire year -- plus anything the parents or community members decide to donate.
I would put up advertisements across Mexico:
"Paying $80,000 cash to the Mexican Mariachi band that teaches singing, dancing, music, songwriting to a small rural American town for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 40 weeks."
Use the remaining $80,000 to buy instruments, decorations, and whatever other supplies. And for one year they are learning Spanish, music, song writing, dancing, and interacting with musicians from Mexico.
So...
How do you envision the education change for the children of an inner city single mother of 5 who now has $40,000 a year for buying education products and services --- where before she had $0 and a worthless inner city public school assigned by zip code?
""
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
"I think, the fundamental reason why private education cannot compete with government is because government won't let go of the monopoly. "
Bingo!
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
Chile's voucher programs and open education markets provide an excellent example of how competition drives down price and drives up innovation. Price wars to attract buyers of products and services are seen across all industries and business, including private educational services like SAT tutoring.
I think the troll count for Brock is at three users now? Moderators still sleeping at the switch?
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
Brock's reasoning compels him to forcibly prevent people on food stamps from buying Halal and Kosher food.
It also compels him to prevent public officials from using their salary to send their own child to religious schools.
Government is not "respecting *an* establishment of religion"
Government is not funding religion.
With vouchers, the government is funding parents and students and giving them educational liberty: giving life, liberty and freedom of educational choice to the people.
A reply on Conversation: Education "vouchers" solve the fiscal crisis, and also lead to economic recovery?
If public schools are 50% cheaper than private schools, then the voucher system will see parents and students choosing public schools, and the public schools expanding and putting private schools out of business.
Not only that, the money going to the teachers of the public schools will increase significantly because the funding is from bottoms up through the parents and students directly to the teachers. This makes the politicians at the federal, state, county, and city levels obsolete, and makes the unions obsolete too. More money into the hands of the teachers.
Consider the statistics Robert Winner just posted for his home state of Arizona:
https://www.ted.com/conversations/15730/why_does_us_education_cost_so.html
1a. 1,077,831 K-12 students
1b. $7,931 per student
1c. $8,554,744,647
2a. 51,947 teachers
2b. $$44,642 per teacher salary
2c. $2,319,017,974
$6.2 billion dollars missing.
Under vouchers, all $8,554,744,647 would be going directly to the public school teachers, given to them by the students and parents. That's $6.2 billion dollars more to the teachers for resources for sciences, maths and engineering you like. So if anything, you should be an ardent supporter of vouchers.