4 days ago: Wow, this speaker just discovered the concept of "love your neighbor". Jesus said to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". This is the greatest commandment. To love your neighbor, you have to understand what he is going through. Without passing blame or judgement, you accept your fellow man as he/she is. They have problems just like you do. You and I are no better than anyone else. We are all created by God, we are all made the same way, we have the same wants and desires, the same yearnings as anyone else. So, to be great people, we have to help people in need. Even if it means that we be patient in a checkout stand behind a person with an annoying child and is trying to use their food stamps. It is but for the grace of God that you are not in that same predicament.
Apr 23 2012: Please don't go down the road of pointing a finger at God for not stopping tragedy. I hate to get into religion here, but it seems that morals are directly tied to religion. God created the world, and then gave us all free choice to do whatever we want, with full knowledge of what he expects. To say that he didn't smite Hitler is absurd. It's our world, Hitler is a free man and he did what he did. God will deal with Hitler. I don't know what will happen to him, but it's not for me to know. God has given us all the information to lead peaceful, happy, productive lives and we can take it or leave it. It's our choice.
Apr 23 2012: As long as we set our own standards, we will be morally corrupt. Man cannot set his own standards. This evidenced everywhere you look. Our country's government was set up so that one branch could override the other. Why? Because the framers knew that if one branch had all the power, it would become corrupt and immoral. It is a reflection of their personal religious beliefs. They did not declare that all men are equal, based on their opinion. They declared that all men are made equal by their creator. Strike that line from the Declaration of Independence and you have a declaration of what some guys thought 236 years ago. I don't want my freedom and recognition of my independence contingent upon what some lawmakers say. I want my law to be based on universal standards, standards that are unchanging, immutable, and everlasting. In other words, I need a standard that is set forth by a power higher than man.
Who do you wish to give you your freedom? God or man? Even if you don't believe in God, you can still accept your freedom as given by God as a proxy. I will never be able to say that "I'm free because the government said so". That is ridiculous. Governments come and go. Laws come and go. God's laws, whether you like them or not, never change. I'm free because God says that I'm free according to the founders of our country. That is absolute moral-ism.
You and Obey1kinobe have me stumped on multiple religions. The original question was if humans can be moral without God. I guess I have to say no. Humans will find a reason to do immoral things to each other and in the process, they will define what they are doing as moral. There has to be an unchangeable baseline and that, by definition can't be defined by man. There are many religions and most violate my morals. So, I guess I get my morals from my belief system. I assume that other cultures get theirs from their belief system. It's rare that cultures have morals based upon the opinions of their citizens.
Apr 23 2012: I'm going to go back and define morality again. Morality is behavior that is acceptable in a culture by that culture. Having relations with your cousin is acceptable in some cultures, but not in others. Therefore, morality is subjective. Moral absolutes are defined by where one is at, culturally. All over the world, every day, cultures kill other cultures because their moral code tells them that what they are doing is okay and good for their culture. In Rwanda, the Hutu's killed almost a million Tutsi's. Why? They didn't like them. They just wanted to get rid of them. For 10 years, Hutu's killed their neighbors. They couldn't readily get guns, so the used machetes for their primary weapon. Now, I'd like to know, how to you come to a point in your life where you look at your moral compass and it says, "It's okay. Take your machete and go to town on those people". Here in America, if someone kills someone with a machete, it will make the network news lead story. That's just one death. I'm telling you this to illustrate that the Hutu's had morals. Their morals included killing every Tutsi that they encountered.
This scenario is what happens when man defines his morals. This why I do not wish to leave the moral making decisions up to my fellow man. This scenario has happened thousands of time over history. Jews, slaves, Serbians, Cambodians, and even the Aztecs, were victims of another culture's own self proclaimed morality.
This is why, I embrace Christianity. But this thread is not about religion. So I say that my morals come from my faith. My faith says that the number one commandment is to love God. The 2nd commandment is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. That is the Christian belief. When Christians kill witches, or jews or homosexuals, or non-christians, they are not following the teachings of Christ. Islam also teaches love above anything else. Islamic fundlmendalists pervert their teachings and kill in the name of Allah. They are not morally right.
Apr 22 2012: I didn't say that there is a God. I said that people that believe that there is a God, or I guess, more specifically, the Christian God, live and obey His commands. They believe that murder, stealing, adultery,
any lying are wrong based on what their creator says. As for evil on earth, lets assume that you are a robot, sitting on a bench in a laboratory. Your creator pushes the "on" switch. You spring to life, aware of where you are and aware that the person that created you is standing there in front of you. How can you tell him that it would be unfair for him to turn you off again? He created you, he can do whatever he wants with you. You are his property. That is the way Christians look at life. We are God's possessions. We know that he can do with us whatever he wants at any time and it is completely in his right to do it. That is one big benefit of recognizing a creator. You realize that your world is in your creator's hands. The universe did not create itself. The universe is not self existent. As far as morals and ethics go, why is killing the guy who cut you off on the freeway wrong? He's going to die sooner or later. Who say's it's wrong to kill him now? Lawmakers? Ted Kennedy? Rules made by people change. Punishments are arbitrary. Different rules apply to different classes of people. If you are seeking absolutes, there is only one choice and that is to seek a higher counsel. Otherwise, you will be left holding your hat in your hand and hoping for the best by people that are in a position to judge you by getting there by popular vote.
Apr 22 2012: Ok. Honor Killing. I had to look it up on Google and found out that Honor Killing was when a member of a family or clan did something that brought so much dishonor to the group that the group's rules mandated that they be killed, I guess to show the other groups that they are serious about their rules. For example, You're daughter gets pregnant by the village bum's son. He's poor, and your daughter can't marry him. He just ain't good enough. What do you do? Well, you have to kill your daughter. She strayed, she made the mistake that made your whole family lose face, she is the face of the embarrassment that is yours right now. It is with great sorrow that you hang the poor girl in the gallows in the public square to show the village that your family is better than that. Your family will not put up with loose female kids that have "relations" with just anyone. Your family has to save face and to do it, the daughter must be taught a lesson. She must die. If I were preaching a Christian sermon, this would fall under the "pride" category.
Previously, I stated that morality is just a set of rules designed to keep us safe from each other. I said that morals are a society's safety mechanism. I also said that when men choose the rules, then there are no rules. That's not how I phrased it but I did say that without belief in an external judge, "God", then we are left to decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. This is a perfect example of how leaving morals up to us is not a good idea. I would assume that this scenario would take place in a culture that is not Christian. Unfortunately, Christian societies have engaged in honor killing since recorded history. The old testament has examples of it. The new testament has examples. People that do things to other people that they would not want done to themselves are called psychotic. There will be people that violate society's morals for their own gain. That does not change a society's moral code.
Apr 22 2012: I'm pretty sure that at one time, there were no bees. Even so, we still have flora and fauna. Like I said, our ecosystem has a way of taking care of itself. If all the bees disappeared in one single day, that might cause a problem. But that's not the way things work. The same people that stand behind the the theory of adaptation and survival of the fittest are are always the first the cry over environmental changes and how the changes will be catastrophic. I don't buy it, I'm a believer that our ecosystem is resilient and even has redundant safety systems built right in. I'm not a biologist, just a layman with opinions, so I know that I could be so off that I'm actually in the wrong ballpark. Life has flourished for the last few million years here on earth, despite any catastrophe that we can theorize has happened to it. In addition, my main point was that extinction is part of the ecosystem. Things come and go all the time. But the world keeps on bringing forth life. Worrying about species becoming extinct is more of a human sentimental problem than a natural problem. Nature doesn't seem to care if X exists or not. When X is gone, there will be Y to take it's place. When we're gone, some other species will soon rise to take our place. It's like when you are at your job. If you quit or get fired, there will be someone to take your place the next day.
Apr 21 2012: In a word, wrong. If you depend on your fellow humans to set the bar for morality, you will be in deep trouble real soon. Just ask any Jew that made it through the Holocaust or any African American in America. Religion sets standards that are fixed by a higher power than man. It takes away our (that believe) choice of what we can do to each other. Morals created by humans are simply rules that we make to protect us from ourselves. We prohibit murder because we don't want to get murdered. We prohibit robbery because we don't want to get robbed. But if we avoid robbing because we believe that it violates our creator's command, then it becomes absolute, set in stone. We don't do it because there are ramifications that are external to this world. It is true that non-religious people are good and fine citizens with good morals. But their morals are defined by the society that they live in and their personal experience. When you acknowledge a creator and accept his rules, nothing can change it. Society's morals change all the time. If you wore a bikini in the 40's, you would be considered for all intents a purposes, naked. Now a bikini can't cover too much. People change their morals with society all the time, but God's rules stand forever.
Apr 21 2012: Would you have a problem with me hitting you on the head with a hammer? I'm sure you would. Therefore you know that anyone that you want to hit on the head with a hammer will have a problem with it. Therefore we know that it is wrong to hit each other on the head with a hammer. It's subjective, because it's self protection. We have rules to keep up from doing things to each other that we know that we would not want done to us. We call those rules morals. Morals is another word for safety. As long as we have morals, we are safe.
Apr 21 2012: My comment was tongue in cheek, mainly because I don't like alligators, or cats or dogs. My only real point is that the ecosystem, the biology of our planet will continue on. Species come, species go. Millions of years of refinement can vanish without reason at any time. Imagine how long it took amoebas to become dinosaurs. It took a lot of time, the dino's were very advanced and now they are gone. But the earth still turns, the sun still shines just like nothing ever occurred. I'm also a christian, so I believe that all that we know is created and created for a purpose. I know that I just got all goofy there, but it makes sense to me. So I don't worry too much about critters dying out, because something will take their place.
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A comment on Talk: David Foster Wallace: This is water
A reply on Conversation: No god = No Morality?
A reply on Conversation: No god = No Morality?
Who do you wish to give you your freedom? God or man? Even if you don't believe in God, you can still accept your freedom as given by God as a proxy. I will never be able to say that "I'm free because the government said so". That is ridiculous. Governments come and go. Laws come and go. God's laws, whether you like them or not, never change. I'm free because God says that I'm free according to the founders of our country. That is absolute moral-ism.
You and Obey1kinobe have me stumped on multiple religions. The original question was if humans can be moral without God. I guess I have to say no. Humans will find a reason to do immoral things to each other and in the process, they will define what they are doing as moral. There has to be an unchangeable baseline and that, by definition can't be defined by man. There are many religions and most violate my morals. So, I guess I get my morals from my belief system. I assume that other cultures get theirs from their belief system. It's rare that cultures have morals based upon the opinions of their citizens.
A comment on Conversation: No god = No Morality?
This scenario is what happens when man defines his morals. This why I do not wish to leave the moral making decisions up to my fellow man. This scenario has happened thousands of time over history. Jews, slaves, Serbians, Cambodians, and even the Aztecs, were victims of another culture's own self proclaimed morality.
This is why, I embrace Christianity. But this thread is not about religion. So I say that my morals come from my faith. My faith says that the number one commandment is to love God. The 2nd commandment is to love your neighbor as you love yourself. That is the Christian belief. When Christians kill witches, or jews or homosexuals, or non-christians, they are not following the teachings of Christ. Islam also teaches love above anything else. Islamic fundlmendalists pervert their teachings and kill in the name of Allah. They are not morally right.
A reply on Conversation: No god = No Morality?
any lying are wrong based on what their creator says. As for evil on earth, lets assume that you are a robot, sitting on a bench in a laboratory. Your creator pushes the "on" switch. You spring to life, aware of where you are and aware that the person that created you is standing there in front of you. How can you tell him that it would be unfair for him to turn you off again? He created you, he can do whatever he wants with you. You are his property. That is the way Christians look at life. We are God's possessions. We know that he can do with us whatever he wants at any time and it is completely in his right to do it. That is one big benefit of recognizing a creator. You realize that your world is in your creator's hands. The universe did not create itself. The universe is not self existent. As far as morals and ethics go, why is killing the guy who cut you off on the freeway wrong? He's going to die sooner or later. Who say's it's wrong to kill him now? Lawmakers? Ted Kennedy? Rules made by people change. Punishments are arbitrary. Different rules apply to different classes of people. If you are seeking absolutes, there is only one choice and that is to seek a higher counsel. Otherwise, you will be left holding your hat in your hand and hoping for the best by people that are in a position to judge you by getting there by popular vote.
A comment on Conversation: Is Morality Valid?
Previously, I stated that morality is just a set of rules designed to keep us safe from each other. I said that morals are a society's safety mechanism. I also said that when men choose the rules, then there are no rules. That's not how I phrased it but I did say that without belief in an external judge, "God", then we are left to decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. This is a perfect example of how leaving morals up to us is not a good idea. I would assume that this scenario would take place in a culture that is not Christian. Unfortunately, Christian societies have engaged in honor killing since recorded history. The old testament has examples of it. The new testament has examples. People that do things to other people that they would not want done to themselves are called psychotic. There will be people that violate society's morals for their own gain. That does not change a society's moral code.
A comment on Conversation: Everything on this earth is so closely intertwined that when we drive a species to extinction, we are spelling our own demise.
A comment on Conversation: No god = No Morality?
A comment on Conversation: Is Morality Valid?
A comment on Conversation: Everything on this earth is so closely intertwined that when we drive a species to extinction, we are spelling our own demise.