Feb 26 2012: Great Topic. I have roughly 4 kW of solar panels on my house and am grid tied. The local city owned utility gave me a rebate on the panels ~20% but they set the rules for net metering and they had to approve the system size. I was limited to 120% of my annual average electricity usage in the size of my system. I had room for two more panels and my inverter is sized for two more panels but the 120% rule was non negotiable if I wanted to be grid tied. The utility still charges me the access fee (~$10 a month) and they tend to have problems reading the multiple meters each month. I could disconnect from the grid if I wanted to spend another $20,000 on batteries, charge controller and reduce my energy usage even more (more efficient refrigerator and gas dryer). I am hoping in another couple of years to purchase my first electric car and what is an electric car but nearly 16 kwh of electricity storage. I am hoping the cost of battery technology will decrease quickly with the mass production of electric cars and putting a 15 to 20 kwh battery pack in my garage will be much cheaper than it is now.
I would love to develop a residential bio gas generating system. You can turn most of the organic waste material generated in a household into methane. A capstone micro turbine or bloom box type fuel cell can convert the methane into electricity and heat. The difficulty is removing the CO2 and H2S from the gas as it would cause problems in both the micro turbine or fuel cell. It would be expensive at first and homes would have to be designed for this type of system but correctly sized and I am guessing supplemented with solar panels you could completely disconnect from the local utilities (no more electric, gas, water or waste water charges). If not only houses but communities were designed in this manner it would be game over for the large utilities. Not quite a Mr. Fusion (Back to the Future) but getting there.
Jan 30 2012: I volunteer and don't expect anything in return other than the good feeling that comes with having done something positive for the community. But I suspect most of my follow citizens are not wired that way. The religious communities have good volunteer turn out and they can point to the fact, rightly so, that they provide community services which the secular community (if you don't count government entities) are generally not capable of providing. Those within the religious community that volunteer for community services do it not only for the good feeling but a chance to make a convert and for the reward of an eternal after life. That is kind of hard to compete with if you run a secular community organization. Hence the idea for incentives but maybe a more appropriate term would be rewards. I know a few secular individuals that volunteer for various community projects but it is not recognized in the community that such services are provided by individuals that are non-religious. I think a secular organization needs to put some effort into marketing their value to the communities they belong to.
I agree meaningful discussion and friendships would be value add but I think positive action would go a long way toward cementing ties within the greater community along with members of the secular organization. I think a secular organization could be highly effective if it focused on reality and solving problems facing their communities and the earth in general. For these non-religious communities to create positive results it will require more time from those that truly get joy out of doing good in the their local communities and I think they should be rewarded for that work. I also believe any secular organization should be value add to its' members.
Jan 29 2012: Your original question is an excellent one Joe. I have had this conversation many times with other atheists and agnostics. I attended meetings of our local atheists’ organization. I stopped going to those meetings about 7 years ago because the focus of the meetings was generally about being anti-religion. They just couldn't see that being anti-anything is not productive. They meet once a month with no permanent meeting place. When the local media needs to have the atheist view point they contact one of the individuals from this organization. It is generally not my view point and in some cases makes the conflicts with the religious organizations in the area worse.
Yes the potential is there, but so are some very tough problems to solve with the atheist population as you can see from the threads above. Atheists are generally independent, skeptical and the diversity of views outside of those with a religious context can be very divergent. Example..some atheists are liberal, but some are conservative and/or libertarian. It is tough to bring these individuals together to agree on anything much less avoid conflicts. The one thing that has been tried to bring them together is anti-religion. See the problem? Being anti-religion is not productive to society. Being non-productive or even destructive to society is not viewed favorably within the community you belong. That is why atheists rank at the bottom for trust in most communities. Agnostics fare no better.
Really it comes down to this….if you don’t believe in a God and what the world’s religions are selling then you have come to the very basic conclusion that all you have is one life to live (dumb soap opera ruined a perfectly good organization name). What can you sell an atheist? Time! Time doing what you like to do and spending it with people you like to spend it with. Yes, those are the limited number of seconds you have left passing by reading a dumb post from me.
Jan 29 2012: What can you work with such a diverse group of individuals. It would be like herding cats right? Incentives is the best I have come up with. In a capitalistic society what is time worth. Money = Time. I spend 50-60 hours a week earning time. Money to buy food so I don’t have to grow or raise it which saves me time. Money allows me to do the things I like to do or dream about doing in this life time. So how do I earn money being a member of an atheist community? Shares of that community. I invest money and time in that community. Think co-op. Think share of a publicly traded company. More like a dividend. The more I do to benefit the community the more shares I can earn. The better the community does the more money each share earns. The more shares I earn the more money and conversely time I have. How do you earn shares? Invest time or money. Atheists tend to have above average education levels: doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, professors, investment bankers…….. Not only that but with such diverse backgrounds and above average intelligence put them to work with a single purpose and message. Improve their lives and the lives of those around them (including the religious). Put religion out of business by doing what religion claims to do for communities but only better.
Now the tricky part I haven’t quite figured out, governing policies of this theoretical no religion community. How do you keep religious influence out of this theoretical no religion community? Guess you would start with Rule number 1. If it can’t be proven by scientific principles then it has no place in community discussion. How do you gain membership into a no religion community that pays to be a member? Rule Number 2 You can be a member but to earn paying shares you have to either invest money or invest time. What is the money invested in? I am leaning toward the members in good standing. Scientists with promising research. Inventors with promising ideas.
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A comment on Conversation: Energy generation for personal use should be free of control and taxation
I would love to develop a residential bio gas generating system. You can turn most of the organic waste material generated in a household into methane. A capstone micro turbine or bloom box type fuel cell can convert the methane into electricity and heat. The difficulty is removing the CO2 and H2S from the gas as it would cause problems in both the micro turbine or fuel cell. It would be expensive at first and homes would have to be designed for this type of system but correctly sized and I am guessing supplemented with solar panels you could completely disconnect from the local utilities (no more electric, gas, water or waste water charges). If not only houses but communities were designed in this manner it would be game over for the large utilities. Not quite a Mr. Fusion (Back to the Future) but getting there.
A reply on Conversation: Would atheists benefit from a community? Are they maximizing such benefits?
I agree meaningful discussion and friendships would be value add but I think positive action would go a long way toward cementing ties within the greater community along with members of the secular organization. I think a secular organization could be highly effective if it focused on reality and solving problems facing their communities and the earth in general. For these non-religious communities to create positive results it will require more time from those that truly get joy out of doing good in the their local communities and I think they should be rewarded for that work. I also believe any secular organization should be value add to its' members.
A comment on Conversation: Would atheists benefit from a community? Are they maximizing such benefits?
Yes the potential is there, but so are some very tough problems to solve with the atheist population as you can see from the threads above. Atheists are generally independent, skeptical and the diversity of views outside of those with a religious context can be very divergent. Example..some atheists are liberal, but some are conservative and/or libertarian. It is tough to bring these individuals together to agree on anything much less avoid conflicts. The one thing that has been tried to bring them together is anti-religion. See the problem? Being anti-religion is not productive to society. Being non-productive or even destructive to society is not viewed favorably within the community you belong. That is why atheists rank at the bottom for trust in most communities. Agnostics fare no better.
Really it comes down to this….if you don’t believe in a God and what the world’s religions are selling then you have come to the very basic conclusion that all you have is one life to live (dumb soap opera ruined a perfectly good organization name). What can you sell an atheist? Time! Time doing what you like to do and spending it with people you like to spend it with. Yes, those are the limited number of seconds you have left passing by reading a dumb post from me.
A comment on Conversation: Would atheists benefit from a community? Are they maximizing such benefits?
Now the tricky part I haven’t quite figured out, governing policies of this theoretical no religion community. How do you keep religious influence out of this theoretical no religion community? Guess you would start with Rule number 1. If it can’t be proven by scientific principles then it has no place in community discussion. How do you gain membership into a no religion community that pays to be a member? Rule Number 2 You can be a member but to earn paying shares you have to either invest money or invest time. What is the money invested in? I am leaning toward the members in good standing. Scientists with promising research. Inventors with promising ideas.