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God did not create the Universe

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• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 22 2011: I like the way you narrate!! Thank you!
  
  I am just thinking aloud: could it be a circular road with God standing static at the center of it and the son walking in circles around? In other words a finite road and an infinite walk?
  
  I am just thinking in the possibility of having a circularity somewhere, but challenging to imagine.

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 22 2011: Thank you :)
  
  I have found that people believe so many different things... Just as a curiosity, one of the only beliefs that doesn't seem to have believers is the case where God mutated into the Universe itself :)
• +1

  A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 22 2011: I would love to read the full version of the story of the frog Jim :) I have searched a bit on the internet to see if I was able to find it and therefore saving a bit of your time but I couldn't find it.
  
  In exchange I will tell you another one that someone shared with me and it is coming to my mind.
  
  The story has to do with the pear tree in a country, which had four weather seasons, namely, winter, spring, summer and autumn.
  
  There was a man who had four sons whom he wanted to teach not to judge things too quickly.
  
  He sent each of them on a mission to go and look at a pear tree that was far away.
  
  The first son went in the winter, the second in the spring, the third in the summer and the youngest in the fall or autumn.
  
  When they had all gone and arrived, he called them together to describe to him what they saw.
  
  The first son said that the tree was ugly, bent, and twisted.
  
  The second son said that the tree was covered by green buds and was full of promise.
  
  The third son disagreed and said the tree was full of sweet smelling blossoms that smelled so sweet and looked so beautiful.
  
  The last son said that he saw the tree full of ripe fruit ready to be picked and full of life and fulfillment.
  
  The father explained to them that all of them were right because each of them saw the tree in only one and different season of life.
  
  He told them that you couldn’t judge a tree by only one season of life. The essence of what it is can only be measured at the end after completing all the seasons.
  
  I would say not only that you are right Jim but also that you have gone through the process that I have just started and I appreciate your comment very much. I won't spend much time on this unless I eventually enjoy it. Thank you for your comment. I will be looking forward your story, thank you.

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 22 2011: Thank you for the comment
  
  "You question why God created the Universe at some "...precise moment, not sooner or later." If God did create the Universe, that had to be a SOME moment (or moments), so the moment of creation is special only in that that was when He did it. Therefore, any time would have been the "special" time."
  
  I see your point. I think that when we include in the equation that "the universe was created for a purpose and its creation was planned" is when this logic makes more sense, otherwise is hard to see.
  
  There are not actions that God could have possibly had to perform at a precise moment within eternity because he had all the eternity to perform every action.
  
  If the creation of the universe had a purpose, then the purpose was to address a need that happened at a precise moment within eternity. Therefore the need of creating the universe at a precise moment is absurd (but only if the universe was created to fulfill a necessity).
  
  "You say: "If Time didn't exist then God is not everlasting..." Many folks believe that God does not exist "in time" but that he exists independent of time."
  
  Correct. The hypotheses set I was starting with was quite poor. I am missing few possibilities:
  - Whether or not God transformed/converted himself into the Universe
  - Whether or not God created the universe in different stages
  - Whether or not there is a spiritual universe and a physical universe merged or combined
  - and many more
  
  I don't know if I should believe in God or not. I guess believing is better because it is like electricity, you can only discover something if you believe it, otherwise you don't research with the same conviction. We use electricity today because someone believed in electricity before having any evidence of its existance (I know it is a silly example but it helps me to believe).
  
  Thank you for your comment
  
  Juan

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 22 2011: Alireza, this is a fantastic answer.
  
  What you are saying questions my thinking process.
  
  I am learning a lot from the wide variety of views.
  
  Thank you for commenting, really great answer :)

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 19 2011: Thank you for the comment, I understand what you mean.
  
  I used the word "before" I think, because in that moment it didn't come up to my mind other way to say it. How could have I asked it in better way (non-causal)? :)
  
  Anyway I think we had the same picture in mind: if before a point in timeline time doesn't exist, then there is not timeline before that point :)
  
  May I ask you a further question?
  
  Could God create another exactly equal God, if he wished to do so?
  If we say that God has not limit then the answer should be Yes.
  If we say that God was not created then the answer is No.
  
  So applying logic, or God was not created (so another copy of God cannot be created, not even by God) or God has no limits (therefore he could create a copy of himself if he wished). Which one is false?
  
  thank you :)

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 19 2011: Thank you for the comments Andres
  
  I was thinking about that and It seems that the only way to say that god could not have created the Universe as a result of chance, is introducing a new hypothesis in the equation, an hypothesis so obvious that cannot be considered false. But I don't find such hypothesis. I have found many good arguments to defend that god could not have created the universe just like the way i decide to have a coffee, so I think I will say in my writting that god could not have created the universe in most scenarios and I will mention the scenario where it could have happened.
  
  Anyway having talked to other people in the internet and outside, it seems that the range of different beliefs that people have is massive; it is almost like 1 person - 1 belief, and I realize my model is quite poor :(
  
  I have enjoyed our debate Andres, thank you

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 19 2011: All what you say is simply correct. I am trying to cut down "unlikely" possibilities from the list in order to get closer to the truth... and I should not be doing that.
  
  I think I couldn't conceive that god could have created the Universe accidentally or without a very deep planning. But the fact that I couldn't conceive that only means that I am not thinking correctly.
  
  Let me think about that anyway, but at the moment I don't see the way to reason that is not possible that god, having or not having been involved in unknown activities, decided to create the universe suddenly, a beautiful day whenever.

• A reply on Conversation: Do you think that God created the Universe? If that was the case, how was that supposed to happen?

  Aug 19 2011: Hi, I see your point; you are saying that for example, if in the case of the Roman Empire electromagnetism had not been discovered, that doesn't mean that it didn't exist (plus the existance of the scale to measure it which also existed). Is that what you mean?
  
  But I think in this case is different, because I think that what Ahmadi is saying is that non-material world and material world are quite different. Check http://www.al-islam.org/nahj/default.asp?url=1.htm paragraph 3
  
  So Time in the non-material and material side are 2 different things, like apples and oranges, so we could not take the scale to measure things in the material side and use it in the non-material side.
  
  Still a bit confussed because I don't know if we should say that "Time didn't exist" or "Time did exist but not a way understandable from the maerial perspective"