This conversation is closed.

why does the Libyan revolution look as a failure?

The Arab waves of revolution carried away Kadhafi's rule. However, according to some analysts, this country was doomed to further divisions once the common ennemy was no longer there. This week, the Eastern part of Libya declared itself independent. And it wants to be able to decide over its own destiny. In all this move, the NTC in Tripoli accused foreign forces to be behind such a separation. Can we say that we need another revolution to unite Libya or is it good the way it is with the East separated from the West? Can we say that the common front that was fought to topple down Kadhafi is soon forgotten? Or really there is foreign powers who want to use the old way 'divide-to-rule' so that they can exploit the wealth hidden in the East? What is the way forward now?

  • Mar 11 2012: Because the US and NATO kicked over the hornet's nest... and left. If you think about it, this is the central argument behind nation-building. After you destroy a country, Should you stay and help them reform into something more peaceful and (in many cases) try to help them into the 21st century? Obviously leftwing pressure forced Bush to sign the withdrawal date as early as he did. We may still be leaving to early... but Iraq had our protection while it got its act together; so they stayed intact. (Notice, though, that Kurdistan is breaking away because Baghdad is still mired in factional politics.) Afghanistan had a lot of freedom and purple fingers under our protection... but to be honest, the best thing that happened to Afghanistan was Iraq - it drew most of the fighting there.

    I'm not a warmonger by any means; but I do not suffer dictators lightly. I think the Axis of Evil was well-named, and there are countries who's citizens would probably be better off if they were invaded, despite the tolls in human life. Is ending the misery in North Korea worth it? And you have to admit, Iraq is not threatening any of its neighbors anymore and, despite its problems, was left pretty much untouched by the arab spring - meaning, its people are generally hopeful.

    I guess a good way to look at it is that you shouldn't go toppling other people's governments; but if you do... you're obligated to nurture them until they can stand again. And if you don't, they will continue to break down into smaller and smaller groups until the fighting stops. It's chaos theory and entropy at work.
    • thumb
      Mar 11 2012: The question referrs to the current situation in Libya!
      • Mar 16 2012: Well, yes.... the question is why does the "Libyan revolution look like a failure". I'll just put it like this: Libya looks like a failure because we DIDN'T do the dirty work of nation-building. So Iraq vs Libya can be seen as a contrast of the two methods of dictator removal... with or without nation building. Libya is failing for precisely the reasons Iraq didn't - but may yet still, because we may have left too early. Iraq may fail because we've essentially taken the Libyan approach to it.
  • Mar 11 2012: The most efficient way forward for Libya is for the male population to acknowledge their equality to women and to make sure that women participate on an equal basis throughout Libya. The design, planning, administration, religious and secular insitutions must reflect a 50% input from women and 50% input from men for that nation to function in a way that will bring health, prosperity and happiness for all Libyan people. It's really that simple. Libyans need to let go of their ancestral brainwashing and re-program themselves. I wonder why men do not realize the importance of admitting they are equal to women and encouraging women of all ages to participate actively in society.
    What is the fear, Iankovsky? The utter failure of male domination is obvious. Isn't it? Truth is powerful. Let's see more of that. Earth does not need even one more war to demonstrate the failure of male domination. MALES EQUAL FEMALES. Shout that throughout the world. Let's change the world today. Thank you.
    • Mar 11 2012: wow, misandry is back in style.

      The only thing worse than male power is female power bitc#ing about male power. This myth that females are somehow less violent or less powerful is just that - a myth. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,

      Try rewriting your post, but swap all the genders... I'm betting it will then appear as misandric as it really is.
      • thumb
        Mar 11 2012: Seeking equality and justice is not seeking to disempower men.

        Women didn't get the vote in the UK until men were ready to relinquish their 100% stranglehold on political power. The support of men was vital since parliament had to vote in the change of law. Some of the most effective advocates of female emancipation have been, and still are, men. Men who have enjoyed loving and nurturing relationships with their mothers, sisters and daughters are going to wish to see them flourish. Many well adjusted and intelligent men, as well as women, are frustrated with the way women are treated in many parts of the world - its not bitching and moaning - nor is it man-hating - its speaking truth to power. And remember “Manners Maketh Man”
        • Mar 16 2012: Ms., White, please see my comment to Rhona below... its addressed to both of you.
      • Mar 12 2012: John, I guess you did not read what I wrote. EQUAL POWER. Males and Females need to share power equally. I do not think either should dominate. The domination thing has proven to be a failure. Truth is needed. With domination, the dominated cannot be honest with the dominator. That is a fundamental flaw in the system that is based upon domination. Lies cause inefficiency and unwanted results. Sorry, if you have had problems with women. Hope things get better for you. Truth, Love, Joy. Males=Females. Get it?
        • Mar 16 2012: With all due respect, Ms White and Ms Pavis, you're missing the point. I have no problem with equality of men and women. I just have a problem with people that seek solutions to problems based on the even distribution of genitalia. Those solutions rarely seem to work, and usually carry baggage of their own. People who think that more vaginas are the answer, generally see more penises as the problem... and those people in my experience seem to have a hatred of penises as well. (Notice it was your first diagnosis, and your first solution - we HAVE to do something about all the penises in here.)

          (Plus... I've never heard a man walk into a problem and declare that the issue was "too many women".)

          The biggest part of my point you're missing is the obvious misandry in your opening paragraph. Swap some genders and read this:

          "The most efficient way forward for Labia is for the female population to acknowledge their equality to men and to make sure that men participate on an equal basis throughout Labia. The design, planning, administration, religious and secular insitutions must reflect a 50% input from men and 50% input from women for that nation to function in a way that will bring health, prosperity and happiness for all Labian people. It's really that simple. Labians need to let go of their ancestral brainwashing and re-program themselves. I wonder why women do not realize the importance of admitting they are equal to men and encouraging men of all ages to participate actively in society. What is the fear, Iankovsky? The utter failure of female domination is obvious. Isn't it?"

          Now when you do that... it starts to sound a little different to your ears, doesn't it? That's because, now it's misogynist. Before that, it was misandric.

          You wish for "equality"; but don't realize the inequality in your own house.
    • thumb
      Mar 12 2012: Hi Rhona, something closer to equality of the sexes in Libya and the middle east would be great.
      Alll for human rights. Don't necessarily think equal rights and forcing 50% of institutions to have women leaders is going to fix centuries of backwardness, and the ingrown hatreds from decades of one sided dictatorship. And Doubt this a practical suggestion for any time in the next decade or 2.
      • Mar 12 2012: Anything positive is possible. This is the age of the internet and fast computers. I don't think we need to be patient anymore. I want all of my positive goals achieved by the time I wake up tomorrow morning (which is usually quite early.) Happy Today.
  • thumb
    Mar 11 2012: Maybe it is a natural split. A lot of nation states have arbitrary boundaries.
    • Mar 11 2012: GM, what about all those lines on the maps drawn by the power and control freaks who wanted to dominate and exploit people? Earth is one. Humanity is one. Males equal Females. Truth is powerful. In how many societies on earth are people free to express the truths they behold? When women and men share power equally, we shall all live happily, healthfully, prosperously ever after. Seems worth a try.
      • thumb
        Mar 12 2012: You raise some interesting issues. Agree we are all one species. Suggest we are also a very tribal species.

        It would be nice if we were less tribal, if different ethnicities learnt to live together peacefully. Some societies do this better than others.

        Sometimes borders based on ethnicity may make sense. It would be nice if we could all live together peacefully but it isn't always the case. Also, perhaps the desire for self determination should also be considered.

        Additionally, some elements of government need to be local. A global world government is not going to decide what parking fines to charge. Similarly a local council is not the best scale for deciding trade policy etc.

        Taking these issues into account, perhaps the borders we have today do not always reflect the ideal optimised solution. Any solution is a compromise.

        Suggest the Kurdish region of Iraq is a positive example of self determination. It may be reasonable in the Libyan situation to follow this example. I’m not an expert on the country.

        In other places, the separation was a disaster e.g. Palestine/Israel. If Palestine had been an independent nation in 1900 when Jews made up only 10% of the population things would have worked out differently.

        I'm not suggesting every place with ethnic or religious issues separates, but sometimes it may make sense.

        Agree there are issues with the dominating group giving up land, power etc. In many cases the nations we have reflect one group defeating another through war, colonisation etc.

        Most lands have a history of different groups being in charge. But it is reasonable to look at what makes sense now.

        Agree with the man/women sentiments and freedom of expression. I'd throw in freedom of religion and from religion and an end to discrimination based on race, sexual orientation etc. I live in a society that is 70% there and hope it does not go backwards.
        • Mar 12 2012: A 3-way split of Iraq seems to make sense. If the different ethnic groups in Libya occupy separate spaces as they do in Iraq, then I agree self-determination and separation makes sense, if that is the will of those people. I still believe that equalizing power between men and women is the shortest route to all people living happily ever after. Instead of pushing the power around among different power and control freaks or puppets of the power and control freaks, let's approach the essence of the problem and solve that. The despots are interchangeable. Getting rid of one or another does not free the people to live their own lives in dignity Authentic (honest) democratic elections, equality between men and women throughout all systems and other basic changes are what we should be spending our energies on, if we want to catapult our world into the positive place our good hearts, heads, guts and spirits yearn for.
  • thumb
    Mar 18 2012: It could well break apart and become something different for awhile then reform as a solid entity under another name.The libyan (or if one could call themselves libyan anymore) revolution might just be the catalyst for the last 200 years,how many empires and countries have collapsed and reformed into exactly what it was?
  • Mar 17 2012: This is response to john robinson:
    Your response to Heather and me seems pathetic and in itself displays the very problem. You protest too much. I am even more convinced, thanks to your response, that the world's probllems are caused by people like you who are terrified of acknowledging your equality to women and doing somehing about it. Maybe someday you will have the courage to recognize the equality between men and women and work to correct the disparity of power throughout society that is the cause of humanity's ills and unhappiness. Best wishes for increasing honesty and awareness. MALES=FEMALES. Try it. It will emancipate you in many ways.
  • thumb
    Mar 16 2012: the way forward now ? is asking were dose the world want to go and how will we get their without wars?
  • thumb
    Mar 12 2012: An Arab Spring revolution that is internally inspired to over through those in entrenched power does not guarantee peace once this aim has been achieved. A tipping point was reached whereby frustration overcame fear and revolution resulted. Libya and Egypt may well descend into civil war as factions demand their piece of power. I hope not, however, if factions are unable to resolve matters through dialogue, then certainly partition, if it is feasible, is preferable to genocide. Otherwise we are left in a long term UN peacekeeping mission.